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Who wins here

Thanos wins.

Thanos is too much for them. Way too much. Thanos wins.

I hope this is the Thanos that killed those Abstracts so he at least puts up a fight before falling to Superman's mighty punches.

Team easily.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos wins.

superman beats the purple out of thanos while billy and wondy making out on the sideline

Originally posted by carver9


Superman alone can beat Thanos. Superman would perceive him as a near statue.

Originally posted by Bentley
I hope this is the Thanos that killed those Abstracts so he at least puts up a fight before falling to Superman's mighty D. Kinky frenchy

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman alone can beat Thanos. Superman would perceive him as a near statue. Prove it. This speed thing is getting old and useless as hell. If that were the case, then flash, Gladiator, superman, Hyperion, Surfer, supreme, supergirl, wonder woman and many more should NEVER be put up against the likes of, hulk, juggernaut, kurse, atlas, Odin, Zeus, surtur, Galactus, the avengers, the x-men, the imperial guard ( minus gladiator) doom, ultron, the destroyer, mangog, Seth, the collector, champion, the stranger, rulk or..... The list goes on an on.... 99 % of the ones named would rape those so-called speedsters.

Originally posted by JBL
Prove it. This speed thing is getting old and useless as hell. If that were the case, then flash, Gladiator, superman, Hyperion, Surfer, supreme, supergirl, wonder woman and many more should NEVER be put up against the likes of, hulk, juggernaut, kurse, atlas, Odin, Zeus, surtur, Galactus, the avengers, the x-men, the imperial guard ( minus gladiator) doom, ultron, the destroyer, mangog, Seth, the collector, champion, the stranger, rulk or..... The list goes on an on.... 99 % of the ones named would rape those so-called speedsters.
Glad to hear that the likes of X men, Imperial Guard and Atlas rape Surfer and Gladiator.

lol hulk, avengers, x-men and imperial guard ain't raping anybody

Thanos without too much problems

Originally posted by JBL
Prove it. This speed thing is getting old and useless as hell. If that were the case, then flash, Gladiator, superman, Hyperion, Surfer, supreme, supergirl, wonder woman and many more should NEVER be put up against the likes of, hulk, juggernaut, kurse, atlas, Odin, Zeus, surtur, Galactus, the avengers, the x-men, the imperial guard ( minus gladiator) doom, ultron, the destroyer, mangog, Seth, the collector, champion, the stranger, rulk or..... The list goes on an on.... 99 % of the ones named would rape those so-called speedsters.

It's PIS.

And before insults are hurled, I just want to explore this debate calmly.

If one side is faster than the other.....why wouldn't they perceive the other pretty much standing still?

Imagine you're playing a game like Street Fighter...but your opponent has extreme lag. You could pull combos off, dodge, jump, punch, whatever.... before they had even loaded the game up.

And that's in 2D.

Now you might argue 'but we're not in control of these characters!', and you'd be right.

So imagine a complete noob. Someone who has no idea how to pull exotic 35 hit combos off. With their speed advantage, they'd still be able to punch and kick and do basic fighting,no? And crucially, be a lesson to block your attacks and jump. And they'd still win.

It's why games are balanced, so you don't have a super fast character who also deals a ton of damage and also has easy combos. Otherwise that character autowins.

Superman stomps Thanos alone, let alone with help.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's PIS.

And before insults are hurled, I just want to explore this debate calmly.

If one side is faster than the other.....why wouldn't they perceive the other pretty much standing still?

Imagine you're playing a game like Street Fighter...but your opponent has extreme lag. You could pull combos off, dodge, jump, punch, whatever.... before they had even loaded the game up.

And that's in 2D.

Now you might argue 'but we're not in control of these characters!', and you'd be right.

So imagine a complete noob. Someone who has no idea how to pull exotic 35 hit combos off. With their speed advantage, they'd still be able to punch and kick and do basic fighting,no? And crucially, be a lesson to block your attacks and jump. And they'd still win.

It's why games are balanced, so you don't have a super fast character who also deals a ton of damage and also has easy combos. Otherwise that character autowins. It's not PIS when a certain character has been hit for 60+ years in thousands of comics. It's more EFS... Excuse for Superman.

Originally posted by JBL
Prove it. This speed thing is getting old and useless as hell. If that were the case, then flash, Gladiator, superman, Hyperion, Surfer, supreme, supergirl, wonder woman and many more should NEVER be put up against the likes of, hulk, juggernaut, kurse, atlas, Odin, Zeus, surtur, Galactus, the avengers, the x-men, the imperial guard ( minus gladiator) doom, ultron, the destroyer, mangog, Seth, the collector, champion, the stranger, rulk or..... The list goes on an on.... 99 % of the ones named would rape those so-called speedsters.

Quoted for truth.

Originally posted by JBL
It's not PIS when a certain character has been hit for 60+ years in thousands of comics. It's more EFS... Excuse for Superman.

But that's comics.

It's not for battle board reasons. He's hit because the story is better when you have failure, rather than a character that does everything super well,super fast.

Only later, when we fans create these battle board conditions, does it not compute.

It's why the Endless, or the Saint of Killers,or Bugs Bunny all fail as battleboard characters. We invent concepts like ToonForce, or whatever.

That's why She Hulk doesn't break the 4th wall in vs threads. I mean, sure, we COULD argue she does - and I have in the past. But that just makes her unbeatable. So it's ignored.

Same with speed and intelligence.

Essentially, for the characters you mentioned to have fun on these threads, we have to ignore their powers. When it isn't even a power one can ignore.

Strength? Sure, you can hold it back. Intelligence? Not so much. You either have it or you don't. Same with speed.

Originally posted by MrMind
lol hulk, avengers, x-men and imperial guard ain't raping anybody The Avengers raped superman.

Originally posted by JBL
It's not PIS when a certain character has been hit for 60+ years in thousands of comics. It's more EFS... Excuse for Superman.

That's called FFVS, Fan-Fictive Version of Superman.

Originally posted by JBL
It's not PIS when a certain character has been hit for 60+ years in thousands of comics. It's more EFS... Excuse for Superman. Correct but somehow darksaint believes his opinion overrides facts. Poster induced stupidity.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Correct but somehow darksaint believes his opinion overrides facts. Poster induced stupidity.



Seriously the arguments on the forums wouldn't be so ludicrous if people actually sticked with the "reality" of comic books.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
That's called FFVS, Fan-Fictive Version of Superman. So true

Stay on topic, please.

Ah well,I tried being civil and was hoping for an actual debate, not... whatever this is between those three.

Dione wins with ease.

Originally posted by zopzop
Dione wins with ease.

Dione gets torn apart. let's be real here.

Thanos decimates Superman. Superman would be crying for the JL to come to his aid. They wouldn't be enough.

Marvel and Diana humiliate DIONE while Superman watches!

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos decimates Superman. Superman would be crying for the JL to come to his aid. They wouldn't be enough.
Superman tears DIONE's head off his shoulders.

Originally posted by panthergod
Superman tears DIONE's head off his shoulders. Name two instances of him tearing an enemies head off their shoulders. You're basically arguing based off your imagination.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos decimates Superman. Superman would be crying for the JL to come to his aid. They wouldn't be enough.

Superman routinely contends with Darkseid.

He ANNIHILATES the Emo imitation.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Superman routinely contends with Darkseid.

He ANNIHILATES the Emo imitation. Baseless claim to back up baseless claim. Thanos beats either Darkseid or Superman. Just stop. Thanos is the king.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Baseless claim to back up baseless claim. Thanos beats either Darkseid or Superman. Just stop. Thanos is the king.

DIONE IS THE KING OF EMO TRASH!!!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ah well,I tried being civil and was hoping for an actual debate, not... whatever this is between those three.

it's because anyone who debates against speed has nothing of substance to stand on. in a forum setting it is inarguable. the only fall back anyone has is to point at comics and say--"look, he's been hit!"

but that argument is faulty at the most basic level--this setting is NOT a comic book so when they point to one as proof of something like flash can be hit by hulk because, well, flash gets hit in comics all the time! it just shows clearly their lack of understanding of the forum.

tbh, i think discussions would be a lot better if the premise we operated under in the forum was "how do you think a fight in a comic would go between (insert characters)?" that way, in a fight like thor vs superman, we wouldn't NEED to add stips to make it a discussion. in a comic, pis is implied. in a comic thor/superman would be (and was) pretty awesome. we wouldn't need to worry about thor being a statue to superman. i've come to realize the forum is a weird place--we are here to debate comic characters, and to do so, we....remove them from the comics? seems kinda backwards to me. so many debates get hung up on pis. i mean people frequently debate whether something is or isn't pis! if it happens all the time is it pis? well, yeah, technically it still is. it's just that writers don't have a logical way around avoiding it if they want to make the books fun and interesting. i mean no matter how many times batman punches reverse flash (as happened not too long ago), it IS pis.

i think from now on, when i make threads, i'm going with the stip that the battle takes place IN a comic book. tell me who would win and how they would win if it were in a comic. i wonder if the discussions would be different from some of this typical nonsense from the usual crowd. /shrug

Who has recent Superman defeated that puts him on Thanos level? I understand he recently fought future Eradicator to a standstill butbthwt isn't enough.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
DIONE IS THE KING OF EMO TRASH!!! He is the king of comic books. Bow down.

Originally posted by leonidas
it's because anyone who debates against speed has nothing of substance to stand on. in a forum setting it is inarguable. the only fall back anyone has is to point at comics and say--"look, he's been hit!"

but that argument is faulty at the most basic level--this setting is NOT a comic book so when they point to one as proof of something like flash can be hit by hulk because, well, flash gets hit in comics all the time! it just shows clearly their lack of understanding of the forum.

tbh, i think discussions would be a lot better if the premise we operated under in the forum was "how do you think a fight in a comic would go between (insert characters)?" that way, in a fight like thor vs superman, we wouldn't NEED to add stips to make it a discussion. in a comic, pis is implied. in a comic thor/superman would be (and was) pretty awesome. we wouldn't need to worry about thor being a statue to superman. i've come to realize the forum is a weird place--we are here to debate comic characters, and to do so, we....remove them from the comics? seems kinda backwards to me. so many debates get hung up on pis. i mean people frequently debate whether something is or isn't pis! if it happens all the time is it pis? well, yeah, technically it still is. it's just that writers don't have a logical way around avoiding it if they want to make the books fun and interesting. i mean no matter how many times batman punches reverse flash (as happened not too long ago), it IS pis.

i think from now on, when i make threads, i'm going with the stip that the battle takes place IN a comic book. tell me who would win and how they would win if it were in a comic. i wonder if the discussions would be different from some of this typical nonsense from the usual crowd. /shrug

Well thought post.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Correct but somehow darksaint believes his opinion overrides facts. Poster induced stupidity.
Originally posted by RealityWarper


Seriously the arguments on the forums wouldn't be so ludicrous if people actually sticked with the "reality" of comic books.
Originally posted by JBL
So true
Thanks guys, you helped me make up my mind.

Superman destroys.

Lol.

In effect, all their arguments boil down to: PIS doesn't exist.

Unless it helps their arguments, of course.

Originally posted by carver9
Who has recent Superman defeated that puts him on Thanos level? I understand he recently fought future Eradicator to a standstill butbthwt isn't enough.

I think that some posters needs to see some recent scans of Superman fighting...

That will be an helpful refresher.

Originally posted by leonidas
it's because anyone who debates against speed has nothing of substance to stand on. in a forum setting it is inarguable. the only fall back anyone has is to point at comics and say--"look, he's been hit!"

but that argument is faulty at the most basic level--this setting is NOT a comic book so when they point to one as proof of something like flash can be hit by hulk because, well, flash gets hit in comics all the time! it just shows clearly their lack of understanding of the forum.

tbh, i think discussions would be a lot better if the premise we operated under in the forum was "how do you think a fight in a comic would go between (insert characters)?" that way, in a fight like thor vs superman, we wouldn't NEED to add stips to make it a discussion. in a comic, pis is implied. in a comic thor/superman would be (and was) pretty awesome. we wouldn't need to worry about thor being a statue to superman. i've come to realize the forum is a weird place--we are here to debate comic characters, and to do so, we....remove them from the comics? seems kinda backwards to me. so many debates get hung up on pis. i mean people frequently debate whether something is or isn't pis! if it happens all the time is it pis? well, yeah, technically it still is. it's just that writers don't have a logical way around avoiding it if they want to make the books fun and interesting. i mean no matter how many times batman punches reverse flash (as happened not too long ago), it IS pis.

i think from now on, when i make threads, i'm going with the stip that the battle takes place IN a comic book. tell me who would win and how they would win if it were in a comic. i wonder if the discussions would be different from some of this typical nonsense from the usual crowd. /shrug I honestly do a merger between forum/comic books, most of the time. There's zero fun in just going "he's a statue", and then seeing the other side desperately grasping at straws. Flash-types are the only ones truly broken, since they only have that one power, so you can't discuss the others. How many good Flash threads can you even remember, besides ones where people are trolling? But somebody like Superman, even though he has reached a level where he can literally time-travel by running, you can simply...not mention that, and you can have a reasonable debate. I only use it in a 'can he dodge that attack' type of way, not in a 'the fight hasn't even started from the other fighter's perspective.

I think the forum has reached a reasonable balance between only going high end, or only going for abilities that are cherry picked, to somewhat seeing the overall picture . I'm not sure how the rules can be enforced, without removing the jobber/hero auras - which are a huge part of comic storylines. Batman would skyrocket to mid-meta, at least.

Maybe I see it that way because I have like a dozen posters on ignore...lol

I only see excuses for people using speedsters not to accept that they are constantly hit...

Running fast doesn't makes you untouchable.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol.

In effect, all their arguments boil down to: PIS doesn't exist.

Unless it helps their arguments, of course. Pretty much

Originally posted by RealityWarper
I only see excuses for people using speedsters not to accept that they are constantly hit...

Running fast doesn't makes you untouchable.

If you want to know the correct answer of the winner in a vs thread, just go with the opposite of whoever RealityWarper and quanchi picks

Originally posted by MrMind
If you want to know the correct answer of the winner in a vs thread, just go with the opposite of whoever RealityWarper and quanchi picks I debate based off the evidence not who I like more. I am most wise.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's PIS.

And before insults are hurled, I just want to explore this debate calmly.

If one side is faster than the other.....why wouldn't they perceive the other pretty much standing still?

Imagine you're playing a game like Street Fighter...but your opponent has extreme lag. You could pull combos off, dodge, jump, punch, whatever.... before they had even loaded the game up.

And that's in 2D.

Now you might argue 'but we're not in control of these characters!', and you'd be right.

So imagine a complete noob. Someone who has no idea how to pull exotic 35 hit combos off. With their speed advantage, they'd still be able to punch and kick and do basic fighting,no? And crucially, be a lesson to block your attacks and jump. And they'd still win.

It's why games are balanced, so you don't have a super fast character who also deals a ton of damage and also has easy combos. Otherwise that character autowins.

So those three do the same to Darkseid right?

Originally posted by quanchi112
I debate based off the evidence not who I like more. I am most wise.

Same.

Thanos wins and it would be glorious to watch.

i said i think discussions would be a lot better if the premise we operated under in the forum was "how do you think a fight in a comic would go between (insert characters)?"

you said: The default should be that we are discussing the characters based on how they are portrayed in the comics



we expressed nearly identical overall sentiments.



well....of course they are? but in some cases, the way they are portrayed runs counter to common sense or logic, why? because it makes the story better. and sure karate kid has some great showings--but what about when someone brings up some of his poor showings? there is no way to logically argue the disparity in performances, why? because the disparity exists for the purpose of the story.



of course they would. in a comic book, thor would never be a statue in a fight against superman, despite the fact that thor has shown has to be unable to react to guys like mongoose, spiderman or wolverine, let alone guys with superman-level speed. can a guy capable of navigating at warp speeds (assuming it's not always been the hammer leading him) somehow be made to be slow in comparison to guys like that? again, not something that can be rationalized. pis isn't a one way street--it's a huge multi-lane highway. one persons low ball is another person's pis. likewise with high balling.



you sound like you're accusing me of saying ss should never be hit. it is a forum rule that characters are used to the best of their abilities, that pis and cis are ruled out. if superman (i use him because he is always the catalyst for these types of arguments) can move, think and react in attosecond increments, and he's shown to be a genius, what logical reason is there for him to stand still and ever, ever get hit by someone like the hulk outside of a comic book? because he gets hit INSIDE a comic book? that isn't a good enough reason in a forum setting. and that's not MY idea--that is the PURPOSE of the forum. so to assume he DOES get hit, people need to make excuses for how that is possible, when, in reality, there IS no reason, because the comic book setting which makes his getting hit possible has been removed.



in a comic? sure. but even that is mitigated in the case of guys like flash. what, it's a coincidence that flash's rogue's gallery is literally littered with speedster enemies? why don't guys like batman have guys like zoom for regular enemies?
probably wouldn't be much fun to have batman die in the first femtosecond of the fight, less fun trying to come up with reasons (as the writer) for how he WOULDN'T die. but we just saw bats take on thawne for a bit. does that elevate bats to flash speeds? or does thawne drop to bats's level? looking at the feats (as portrayed in the comics you cited at the start of your post) batman should have been that statue you also mentioned. but he wasn't. again, why? because it made for a pretty cool fight--least imo. but i can suspend disbelief for purposes of a good story. the forum removes my need to suspend that disbelief.

whew--that was long winded--don't blame if you didn't read. in the end, i actually think we're on the same side here though.....

The general idea, as I've always seen it, is that we debate how characters would behave in a fight in a comic if they weren't hampered by the necessities of the plot.

They don't lose their personality; they're just not handicapped either unless they're idiots.

So how would you say we handle Superman? He should be for all inentions and purposes, still untouchable.

Originally posted by Damborgson
So how would you say we handle Superman? He should be for all inentions and purposes, still untouchable.

Sure, Usain Bolt is untouchable too because he runs faster than Mike Tyson...

Oh wait ! That makes no sense !

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Sure, Usain Bolt is untouchable too because he runs faster than Mike Tyson...

Oh wait ! That makes no sense !

They day Usain Bolt sees the world like this:

https://images.moviepilot.com/images/c_limit,q_auto:good,w_600/usjuhusfwgq5xlxdbi5f/superman-game-ideas.jpg

We'll call that a fair point.

Originally posted by Damborgson
So how would you say we handle Superman? He should be for all inentions and purposes, still untouchable.

By sticking to his personality. Superman is notorious for fighting at his opponent's level unless he has a reason not to. It's a steady escalation until he either wins, or gets beaten.

Originally posted by -Pr-
By sticking to his personality. Superman is notorious for fighting at his opponent's level unless he has a reason not to. It's a steady escalation until he either wins, or gets beaten.



Works for me.

Fights should go the way I say they would go.

Follow this standard and you will NEVER go wrong!!!

Originally posted by Damborgson
They day Usain Bolt sees the world like this:

https://images.moviepilot.com/images/c_limit,q_auto:good,w_600/usjuhusfwgq5xlxdbi5f/superman-game-ideas.jpg

We'll call that a fair point.

One thing to note is that no one is fighting in that scene.

Originally posted by Damborgson
They day Usain Bolt sees the world like this:

https://images.moviepilot.com/images/c_limit,q_auto:good,w_600/usjuhusfwgq5xlxdbi5f/superman-game-ideas.jpg

We'll call that a fair point.

Having a fast brain processing doesn't mean that you are fast in combat too...

Either ways, on that scan, Superman is as slow as the woman falling...

Originally posted by -Pr-

No he isn't.

He is...

All he did was sit up... If you look at the scene, the waitress is actually doing much moves and traveling a greater distance than Superman in the same panels...

I guess that she is super-fast in combat according to the logic supported by many people in here...

My opinion:

The relevancy of this scan to argue for the combat capabilities of the characters is ZERO.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
He is...

All he did was sit up... If you look at the scene, the waitress is actually doing much moves and traveling a greater distance than Superman in the same panels...

I guess that she is super-fast in combat according to the logic supported by many people in here...

My opinion:

The relevancy of this scan to argue for the combat capabilities of the characters is ZERO.

Maybe you need to see more of the scene:

This is the start, where the woman slips.

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t/37121174_12.jpg

5 pages pass where they're talking. Then we get to this page.

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t/37121175_17.jpg

Superman has been interacting with Flash the entire time. You can argue that it has no impact on his combat capabilities, but he's still not nearly as slow as the waitress that tripped.

The question about Darkseid is would he be a statue to Superman.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
The question about Darkseid is would he be a statue to Superman.

Why would he>? Darkseid's been established as having super-speed reflexes fast enough to move faster than Clark could react since the very first time Superman encountered Darkseid in Post Crisis continuity during the Legends event tie-in.

Darkseid has superspeed reflexes.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
The question about Darkseid is would he be a statue to Superman.

Oh that. Generally it depends on the version but no, not a statue. Superman IS faster, but Darkseid has decent reflexes and his omega beams are fast as hell.

The whole "would be a statute" thing is crap anyway.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
The question about Darkseid is would he be a statue to Superman.

Respectfully, how much Superman have you read?

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Respectfully, how much Superman have you read?

I'm sure it's more than you have.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm sure it's more than you have.

LISTEN CLOSELY, YOU'D DO WELL NOT TO PUSH YOUR LUCK AFTER YOU ROBBED ME WITH YOUR MORONIC DECISION!!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol.

In effect, all their arguments boil down to: PIS doesn't exist.

Unless it helps their arguments, of course.

Originally posted by Stoic
In a real world speedsters would never be hit by character far slower than them, but comic books are not real world topics. The slow hit the fast all of the time, which would actually mean that they aren't that slow.

100% agree.

Now, we need to ask WHY slower people hit faster all the time.

As you say, they are SLOWER. Not comparable, or equal, but slower.

Do the faster people have two speeds? Love getting hit?

Or, in comic books, are they hit because....plot calls for it?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Maybe you need to see more of the scene:

This is the start, where the woman slips.

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t/37121174_12.jpg

5 pages pass where they're talking. Then we get to this page.

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t/37121175_17.jpg

Superman has been interacting with Flash the entire time. You can argue that it has no impact on his combat capabilities, but he's still not nearly as slow as the waitress that tripped.

You can argue that they spoke at super-speed but that's all that Superman did. ^^

Are you saying Superman can move like normal, but for some reason can't attack at that speed?

Why you're still among us is beyond my understanding, friend.

And I'm not even talking about mods and bans, but natural selection in rl.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
So those three do the same to Darkseid right?

DS has OHK beams which chase down, change direction and have the potential to catch the Flash.

Hardly the best example. If anything, it's PIS that these three can hang with him.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
You can argue that they spoke at super-speed but that's all that Superman did. ^^

Whats faster? speak multiple complete sentences or throwing a punch?

And they were eating also while everything else was a at standstill.

this is the same buffoon that thinks flash doesn't have super speed and that sentry is an omniversal reality warper....... why you don't have him on ignore i will never know

this dude has Olympic level mental gymnastics, y'all just cant compete.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
You can argue that they spoke at super-speed but that's all that Superman did. ^^

Superman did several things besides talk. He turned around, manipulated the ring, etc.

In another feat, Superman walked around, took off his tie, had long conversations, all casually, inbetween nanoseconds.

Forget movement speed, the perception that everything is frozen should make it damn near impossible to hit him. He would see the attack coming in almost still motion. He could choose to get out of the way or get hit. But he has a choice.

He didn't just talk.

He was reacting to the things Flash was saying, also at high speeds...i.e,having a conversation. That's a massive thing to keep in mind.

Inagine listening to dialogue....and having it sped up 100 times. Yet still being able to understand, process,and form counter sentences.

In the same issue, Flash was literally rebuilding an entire city nigh-instantly to look like krypton -which is, actually, faster than his city evacuation feat....buildings and all.

Superman sped up and caught him.

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Are you saying Superman can move like normal, but for some reason can't attack at that speed?

Why you're still among us is beyond my understanding, friend.

And I'm not even talking about mods and bans, but natural selection in rl.

I have no obligation in following the bandwagon about some illogical reasoning.

If you want to believe that Superman is fast in combat after 75 years at being punched in the face by slowpokes and being unable to block or avoir their attacks, that's your choice mate.

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman did several things besides talk. He turned around, manipulated the ring, etc.

In another feat, Superman walked around, took off his tie, had long conversations, all casually, inbetween nanoseconds.

Forget movement speed, the perception that everything is frozen should make it damn near impossible to hit him. He would see the attack coming in almost still motion. He could choose to get out of the way or get hit. But he has a choice.

That's what you don't get...

Seeing things in slow motion doesn't gives him so much time to react... Just the feeling that he has.

At best you can pretend that gives him the choice tro TRY to defend himself or not but that's pretty much. AT BEST.

Mjolnir...who is sentient and is almost a character in her own right (I think she's female..)? Yup.

Yes, Shaggy Man should be a statue. If not, then he should be super fast, and blitzing Batman.

But he doesn't.

So either A it's a stupidly high showing for Batman,or B a stupidly low showing for Shaggy.

This of course also applies to DS.

Why do you not think DS is fast? Because others tag him.

So is it a low showing for DS,or a high showing for the others?

Let's stop using Batman, because apparently people don't like the inability to debate against him,lol.

Constantine? A mere human? Is that a better example? He reacted to Flash, Superman, DS, Shazam etc. Does that mean HE'S fast, or they're all human level in combat?

Let's use Marvel against Marvel. Wolverine. Cap? Strange? Any psychic worth their salt? BP? Kingpin? DD?

Every time they interact with a herald,does that mean the herald is that slow, that the street is that fast....or.....PIS?

Originally posted by Diesldude
Whats faster? speak multiple complete sentences or throwing a punch?

There is NO CORRELATION between both tasks.




Flash was eating.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Every time they interact with a herald,does that mean the herald is that slow, that the street is that fast....or.....PIS?

No.

This just mean that everyone in comics is fighting at street-level. Period.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
I don't think anyone has said that.

The depictions of the characters in the comics give us the basis for the arguments that we make here. The one element that is removed in the forum as compared to comics is PIS. That should be pretty easy to recognize and reference in a debate.

I don't understand how that equates to people "NOT" using the comics for their arguments.
Jesus Christ LoB has taken his pills.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Jesus Christ LoB has taken his pills.

DO NOT ANGER THE RULER OF THE HOUSE OF EL!!!

and guys like ds and even thanos to an extent, are usually given lee-way by most reasonable posters. they tend to see the universe differently than most lower level guys. given thanos's past and his experiences, i wouldn't say he would be a statue in this match. he has enough experience with time and reality manipulation to make an argument that he could keep up with these characters. at least imo. speed COULD be used against him, but i'm not sure it's a failsafe argument, like flash speed is against someone like hulk. /shrug speed wouldn't be a factor imo against most (or any) cosmic level guys (like galactus, maybe even odin) they have other perceptual advantages.

Originally posted by -Pr-
So he can just talk at speed, but do nothing else? That's a hard case to make, tbh.

Are you thinking that it is legit to pick a scan and give a character an ability that he never demonstrated to have and not correlated to the scan in question ?



Superman has thrown some flurry of punches at high speed a very few times which is an all-out attack and not really combat speed as it is intended to be because it imply that the character is actually able to do other combat manoeuvres at high speed, not just attacking but defending, avoiding, etc...

And the rare characters that Superman "outspeed" in combat were slow character without combat speed feats: Probes, Doomsday, etc... It is hard to make a case for a character when only one or two attacks at best are throwed on panel and that the main character isn't capable to avoid or block it, right ?

And this isn't just the case for Superman but it is too for characters like Sentry, Thor, Hulk, etc...



The plot doesn't demand for a character to use an ability he doesn't posses.
Superman isn't different than other comic book characters regarding to this.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Are you thinking that it is legit to pick a scan and give a character an ability that he never demonstrated to have and not correlated to the scan in question ?



Superman has thrown some flurry of punches at high speed a very few times which is an all-out attack and not really combat speed as it is intended to be because it imply that the character is actually able to do other combat manoeuvres at high speed, not just attacking but defending, avoiding, etc...

And the rare characters that Superman "outspeed" in combat were slow character without combat speed feats: Probes, Doomsday, etc... It is hard to make a case for a character when only one or two attacks at best are throwed on panel and that the main character isn't capable to avoid or block it, right ?

And this isn't just the case for Superman but it is too for characters like Sentry, Thor, Hulk, etc...



The plot doesn't demand for a character to use an ability he doesn't posses.
Superman isn't different than other comic book characters regarding to this.

That's a fair bit of lowballing you're doing there.

Originally posted by -Pr-
That's a fair bit of lowballing you're doing there.

How am I lowballing ?

We can even make statistics if you want.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
How am I lowballing ?

We can even make statistics if you want.

If we do that, the amount of instances of Superman using his superspeed in a way that showcases his reactions would make the argument for him win.

Mods have been through this before: He has superspeed. The comics support this. It's to the degree that's to be measured, just like we do with things like strength, durability and so on.

To deny that the man has impressive combat speed (relatively), is to be as obtuse as to say Cyclops doesn't shoot red beams out of his eyes.

Originally posted by -Pr-
If we do that, the amount of instances of Superman using his superspeed in a way that showcases his reactions would make the argument for him win.

We can make statistics, I have no issues with that.

Let's show:

1) How many times Superman has been fighting.

Defence:

2) How many times he has been punched without being able to block/avoid per fight.

3) How many times he has been able to punch an opponent and show speed feats of the said opponent to see if he is fast in combat.

Attack:

4) How many attacks Superman has been able to land on an opponent

5) How many attacks that Superman failed to land on an opponent.



How am I denying superspeed when:

A) Superman fails to avoid/ block attacks all the time in 75 years of carrer.

B) Throws like 3 all-out attacks of quick punches in 75 years of carreer.

C) Has only a few showings of speed against SLOW characters: Mongul, etc...

D) I totally agree that Superman has super-speed when it comes to running or flying but when it's about combat that's not really the case...

I can even bring his fights against Grundy, Shadowdragon, Doomsday, Darkseid...

It's a lot more than three, which is your problem right there and where the lowballing comment comes from.

The rules of the forum take in to account things like PIS/CIS.

Not to mention the fact that Superman has shown himself more than willing to take a punch if it means someone else doesn't have to.

He has combat speed. This has been shown more than enough times to be not just an outlier.

Originally posted by -Pr-
It's a lot more than three, which is your problem right there and where the lowballing comment comes from.

The rules of the forum take in to account things like PIS/CIS.

Not to mention the fact that Superman has shown himself more than willing to take a punch if it means someone else doesn't have to.

He has combat speed. This has been shown more than enough times to be not just an outlier.

I have no problem changing my view if you, or anyone, prove me wrong.

The arguments showed in their proper context, of course, and Superman being consistently fast against fast characters.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
I have no problem changing my view if you, or anyone, prove me wrong.

The arguments showed in their proper context, of course, and Superman being consistently fast against fast characters.

Sounds like you're saying one thing then contradicting it a moment later, unless I'm mistaken. We have an actual Superman respect thread on this site bursting with speed feats. We have PIS/CIS rulings in the forum rules themselves that account for exactly this kind of argument.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Sounds like you're saying one thing then contradicting it a moment later, unless I'm mistaken. We have an actual Superman respect thread on this site bursting with speed feats. We have PIS/CIS rulings in the forum rules themselves that account for exactly this kind of argument.

Where am I contradicting myself ?

I am asking for proofs.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Where am I contradicting myself ?

I am asking for proofs.

Proof that Superman has combat speed, right?

I can't copy and paste everything, but here's the thread you can read them in:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t601613.html

Originally posted by -Pr-
Proof that Superman has combat speed, right?

I can't copy and paste everything, but here's the thread you can read them in:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t601613.html

Travel speed ?

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Travel speed ?

Did you not read the combat speed ones?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Did you not read the combat speed ones? Of course not. Why even bother with some people?

Pretty much. DC and Marvel combat speed showings are pretty bad tbh. Especially when you have to use flurry hands as an indication of someone having high end speed showings in combat.

Originally posted by -Pr-
You don't have to search high and low. The respect thread has

The thread you linked to is what I was searching. I stopped after a while but the speed sections I looked at produced the Lobo fight. Its easy to see how someone looking through it will see only flight and non-combat speed feats.

Originally posted by carver9
Pretty much. DC and Marvel combat speed showings are pretty bad tbh. Especially when you have to use flurry hands as an indication of someone having high end speed showings in combat.



This is probably one of the more impressive ones. This is actual sustained fighting a hyper speed while the world around them is frozen.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/146296/2857751-gt4.jpg

Originally posted by TheHulkster
This is probably one of the more impressive ones. This is actual sustained fighting a hyper speed while the world around them is frozen.


Weren't they fighting inside Reed's ship which had his own time bubble thus making that speculation null and void ?

Originally posted by TheHulkster
The thread you linked to is what I was searching. I stopped after a while but the speed sections I looked at produced the Lobo fight. Its easy to see how someone looking through it will see only flight and non-combat speed feats.

Can't say I agree.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
That's pretty much what I've said in my conversation with Pr.

Superman has around 3 showings like that in 75 years...

And a flurry of punch is an all-out attack, Superman usually isn't able to block or avoid attacks...

Try this instead:

https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/3ovxvl/respect_superman_complete_postcrisis/

He has FAR more than 3 showings of combat speed in 75 years.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Can't say I agree.



Try this instead:

https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/3ovxvl/respect_superman_complete_postcrisis/

He has FAR more than 3 showings of combat speed in 75 years.

Under the section entitled combat feats, there are actually 3 non-flight speed combat feats. One flurry on Mongul and 2 on probes. All similar to the one shown above against Equus.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Under the section entitled combat feats, there are actually 3 non-flight speed combat feats. One flurry on Mongul and 2 on probes. All similar to the one shown above against Equus.

By what metric are you measuring combat speed?

Because by the forum's definition, there's a lot more than 3.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Under the section entitled combat feats, there are actually 3 non-flight speed combat feats. One flurry on Mongul and 2 on probes. All similar to the one shown above against Equus.

Something on that order.

Originally posted by -Pr-
By what metric are you measuring combat speed?

Because by the forum's definition, there's a lot more than 3.

I compare their abilities to attack and defend.

I simply look at how much attacks and defences are done per panel, or whatever the narration says on the matter.

I look at how easily they re-position themselves too.

I separate the combat manoeuvres too, for example if a character can fly or run fast into another, I just look at how he do that:

If a character is able to rush another at 800 mph, that means he can charge his opponents at 800 mph.

Simple and effective.

I think that the most important point is to keep each combat manoeuvres separated to clarify the posts.

Originally posted by -Pr-

How fast (or slow) do you think Superman is?


Slower than Shadowdragon.






They aren't necessarily applicable to combat either.

For example Alain Prost has awesome reflexes when it comes to driving but if he had to fight someone, his reflexes as a driver would be useless because that's not the same task.

There is no correlation between driving and fighting therefore you cannot apply the feats of one to the other.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Slower than Shadowdragon.






They aren't necessarily applicable to combat either.

For example Alain Prost has awesome reflexes when it comes to driving but if he had to fight someone, his reflexes as a driver would be useless because that's not the same task.

There is no correlation between driving and fighting therefore you cannot apply the feats of one to the other.

Superman is a trained fighter. He's shown that he has the ability to move and perform complex tasks at speed. Ergo, he can perform fighting moves at speed because he's trained in the use of his speed AND in the use of fighting techniques.

The comics support this. Hell, even shitty media like Smallville supports it.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Slower than Shadowdragon.






They aren't necessarily applicable to combat either.

For example Alain Prost has awesome reflexes when it comes to driving but if he had to fight someone, his reflexes as a driver would be useless because that's not the same task.

There is no correlation between driving and fighting therefore you cannot apply the feats of one to the other.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Superman is a trained fighter. He's shown that he has the ability to move and perform complex tasks at speed. Ergo, he can perform fighting moves at speed because he's trained in the use of his speed AND in the use of fighting techniques.

The comics support this. Hell, even shitty media like Smallville supports it.

When does the comic support this exactly ?

We come back at context and statistics again.

I have been through almost all of Superman's appearances and the large majority of the time he is a punching bag, like more than 99% of them.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
When does the comic support this exactly ?

We come back at context and statistics again.

I have been through almost all of Superman's appearances and the large majority of the time he is a punching bag, like more than 99% of them.

What are you arguing, exactly? That him being hit by people slower than him removes his stated super-speed reactions? Speed he's been stated to have multiple times, and SHOWN multiple times?

Originally posted by -Pr-
What are you arguing, exactly? That him being hit by people slower than him removes his stated super-speed reactions? Speed he's been stated to have multiple times, and SHOWN multiple times?

I mean that they aren't "slower than him" when it comes to combat techniques.

He runs and fly faster but that's not a factor when it comes to trade blows.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

PIS.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

PIS. The comics are the evidence not your interpretation of the powers. That's subjective but you won't acknowledge your double standard. Only fair way is to be consistent and accept all the facts not just the ones you're ok with.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

PIS.

It would be closer to CIS/CIP from what I can see.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, I laid it out in steps, and no-one answered it satsifactorily:



Hulkster, you obviously don't think it's 1 - Fair enough, that already puts you on top, lol. You don't think it's 2. OK. 3 or 4 is what is left to you.

And I would like to see scans of Superman loving his beatdown at Doomsday's hands.

'Harder, daddy!'

I tweaked number 4:

4. He has it, but characterization dictates sexy fights, where the hero struggles and gets tagged.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
I tweaked number 4:

4. He has it, but characterization dictates sexy fights, where the hero struggles and gets tagged.

So in character, Superman likes to struggle and get tagged? Because he wants to make fights look sexy and stylish?

That is a very far reach. He's not Booster Gold, or Longshot, doing things for ratings, lol.

CIP, fair enough. CIS? You yourself said, being dumb was out of character.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So in character, Superman likes to struggle and get tagged? Because he wants to make fights look sexy and stylish?

That is a very far reach. He's not Booster Gold, or Longshot, doing things for ratings, lol.

CIP, fair enough. CIS? You yourself said, being dumb was out of character.


Nah, in character Superman feels, or believes that he has enough natural body armor. He worries less about being tagged than let's say Batman who must think about his safety and avoid the impact. I've mentioned this several times already. Superman goes into fights with the knowledge, or belief that he can take it, or at least bang out with whomever is standing in front him. It's as if he were betting that they will fall before he does. And why not? He can fly through stars with little to no injury, take nuke strikes, etc. This happened when the JL took on Konvikt.

Originally posted by Stoic
Nah, in character Superman feels, or believes that he has enough natural body armor. He worries less about being tagged than let's say Batman who must think about his safety and avoid the impact. I've mentioned this several times already. Superman goes into fights with the knowledge, or belief that he can take it, or at least bang out with whomever is standing in front him. It's as if he were betting that they will fall before he does. And why not? He can fly through stars with little to no injury, take nuke strikes, etc. This happened when the JL took on Konvikt.

Perfect.

So how about his opponents?

Hulk? Is he some no-name 2-bit villain who no one has ever heard of?

Thor? Some nobody who no-one knows?

In THIS thread..

Thanos?

Does Superman see Doomsday and think, 'oh gee, I better let this guy tag me!'?

No, he gets stuck in with his powers.

Let's say he doesn't get any knowledge, or for some reason, nobody knows of the Hulk or Thanos, lol.

They tag him - do they OHKO him? Kill him?

If no.....what do you think he then does? 'Oh gee, that green guy hit me really hard - I certainly felt that! Now, I better keep getting hit! Feels so good!'

Uh-huh.

I mean, I know crossovers aren't valid, but essentially this:

https://lowbrowcomics.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/dcvsmarvel_03_29.jpg

Superman will figure out straight away that he's a pretty tough customer.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Perfect.

So how about his opponents?

Hulk? Is he some no-name 2-bit villain who no one has ever heard of?

Thor? Some nobody who no-one knows?

In THIS thread..

Thanos?

Does Superman see Doomsday and think, 'oh gee, I better let this guy tag me!'?

No, he gets stuck in with his powers.

Let's say he doesn't get any knowledge, or for some reason, nobody knows of the Hulk or Thanos, lol.

They tag him - do they OHKO him? Kill him?

If no.....what do you think he then does? 'Oh gee, that green guy hit me really hard - I certainly felt that! Now, I better keep getting hit! Feels so good!'

Uh-huh.

I mean, I know crossovers aren't valid, but essentially this:

https://lowbrowcomics.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/dcvsmarvel_03_29.jpg

Superman will figure out straight away that he's a pretty tough customer.

He would fight Thanos similarly to the way that he would fight Darkseid. He would have respect for them, but he wouldn't immediately go to evasive maneuvers at the sound of the gong. We can't see these fights as if these characters were old rivals, but that they are meeting for the very first time, regardless of the scope of their power to an extent. Key word here being Extent. Superman has never tasted a blow from Thanos and vice versa, etc.

Originally posted by Stoic
He would fight Thanos similarly to the way that he would fight Darkseid. He would have respect for them, but he wouldn't immediately go to evasive maneuvers at the sound of the gong. We can't see these fights as if these characters were old rivals, but that they are meeting for the very first time, regardless of the scope of their power to an extent. Key word here being Extent. Superman has never tasted a blow from Thanos and vice versa, etc.

Exactly.

So he knows Thanos, this incredibly powerful being famous through not just Earth, but the entire cosmos. A worshipper of Death, the most feared and dangerous being in the universe.

ASSUMING he doesn't then go 'hmm, I better be careful and not get tagged', he'll get....tagged. Would he be OHKO? If not.....

What happens AFTER he has tasted a blow from Thanos, the most feared and dangerous being in the universe?

'Oh, better taste another blow!!!'

You see what I am getting at?

Edit: your argument is essentially - Superman+WW+Marvel knows Thanos, knows what he's capable of, gets tagged, and STILL don't then start using evasion tactics.

Or worse, WW/Marvel will see Superman getting tagged, getting staggered (or OHKO, depending on what you believe), and them going...hmm, yes, we shall do the same!

As I said. Supes/DS is a fight for comics. Ignoring their character AND powers is fundamentally unsound.

You're basically reducing them to idiots. 'We're facing a universal threat - better go in and take some hits! Oh no, we're hit! Better keep going!'

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Exactly.

So he knows Thanos, this incredibly powerful being famous through not just Earth, but the entire cosmos. A worshipper of Death, the most feared and dangerous being in the universe.

ASSUMING he doesn't then go 'hmm, I better be careful and not get tagged', he'll get....tagged. Would he be OHKO? If not.....

What happens AFTER he has tasted a blow from Thanos, the most feared and dangerous being in the universe?

'Oh, better taste another blow!!!'

You see what I am getting at?

Edit: your argument is essentially - Superman+WW+Marvel knows Thanos, knows what he's capable of, gets tagged, and STILL don't then start using evasion tactics.

Or worse, WW/Marvel will see Superman getting tagged, getting staggered (or OHKO, depending on what you believe), and them going...hmm, yes, we shall do the same!

As I said. Supes/DS is a fight for comics. Ignoring their character AND powers is fundamentally unsound.

You're basically reducing them to idiots. 'We're facing a universal threat - better go in and take some hits! Oh no, we're hit! Better keep going!'

Honestly, Wonder Woman and Marvel in the long run are just fillers. The real fight will go down to Superman vs Thanos. Thanos has been portrayed as being the big bad guy that under optimal conditions would be hard to be defeated by a team of Captain Marvel level characters. Any doubts?

Well Odin or at least the portrayal of Odin that could not KO Thanos back several years ago would one shot clock Captain Marvel, or Wonder Wonder as he did to the Silver Surfer, who is a strong rival of Thor. This is really Superman vs Thanos let's not kid ourselves. Thanos has since become more powerful. Before losing his power, he was calling on armies of the dead to battle for him, which was just one of his abilities. I believe that he is more powerful now, but only time can tell.

Superman in character isn't going evasive. He doesn't really know Thanos intimately enough to draw this conclusion.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Except for the times when it has been?

Do you mean the 3 times he unleashed a flurry of punches against slow opponents ?



What standard are you talking about ?

Why are you defining it as shaky ?



Is Gorilla Grodd a quick character in combat ?

Is Batman especially quicker than Gorilla Grodd too ?



He get hit more and he fail to succeed at defending against the attacks by avoiding or blocking.




I'm arguing feats.



Or because he doesn't have the capacity to block it or avoid it.

Originally posted by Stoic
Honestly, Wonder Woman and Marvel in the long run are just fillers. The real fight will go down to Superman vs Thanos. Thanos has been portrayed as being the big bad guy that under optimal conditions would be hard to be defeated by a team of Captain Marvel level characters. Any doubts?
Nope, which is PRECISELY why Superman et al AREN'T going to take him lightly. Also, you forget Diana's lasso. And atom-splitting sword (or was is electrons? W/ever).


But how many times will he get hit before he draws this conclusion? Once? Twice? Three times?

You're basically saying Thanos is either going to OHKO him, or Superman is going to allow himself to be beaten to death, without going evasive, lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And atom-splitting sword (or was is electrons? W/ever).
Dunno, but electrons are elementary, or fundamental, particles and as such indivisible (in a sense). There's no such thing as a "half of an electron"; trying to "split" an electron could however result in particle-production, e.g.

electron (+sword swing) --> electron + electron + positron

where the energy for the electron-positron pair production comes, in this case, from the energy of the sword swing. In this example, an electron-positron pair has to be created in order to satisfy the Law of Conservation of Lepton Number (left-hand side: +1, right-hand side: +1 + 1 - 1 = +1, OK) and the Law of Conservation of Electric Charge.

Originally posted by Magnon
Dunno, but electrons are elementary, or fundamental, particles and as such indivisible (in a sense). There's no such thing as a "half of an electron"; trying to "split" an electron could however result in particle-production, e.g.

electron (+sword swing) --> electron + electron + positron

where the energy for the electron-positron pair production comes, in this case, from the energy of the sword swing. In this example, an electron-positron pair has to be created in order to satisfy the Law of Conservation of Lepton Number (left-hand side: +1, right-hand side: +1 + 1 - 1 = +1, OK) and the Law of Conservation of Electric Charge.

Got mixed up with KC. Her sword could carve electrons off an atom.

DCnU could 'merely' split atoms.