Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

WHO IS THE #4 MOST POWERFUL CHARACTER?

---

RANKINGS:

1.) Luke Skywalker
2.) Palpatine
3.) Anakin Skywalker
4.) Yoda

----

BACKGROUND AND RULES: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t649092.html.

---

REMINDER: All characters are strictly in their Legends incarnation and are at peak combative (not potential) capabilities under normal conditions (no external amplifies or other temporary boosts are to be considered). All characters are at peak mental mindset while maintaining an accurate portrayal of their mindset and beliefs (morals on). Lightsaber skill and related abilities (such as physical strength, speed, etc.) is to be considered if relevant.

---

ADDITIONAL NOTICE #1: "Morals on" means that characters are fighting as they would be portrayed within the Star Wars universe given the conditions listed above. The intent is to not weaken the characters of any power, but rather for light-side characters to stay light-side characters. Thus, Luke Skywalker is not going to embrace the dark-side and use Force lightning or Force drain. Instead, Luke will bring all his powers to bear given the constraints of his ideology.

---

ADDITIONAL NOTICE #2: UnuThul will be considered with the amplified abilities he receives from the Killiks.

---

BANNED CHARACTERS: Ones of Mortis, Abeloth, Bedlam Spirits, Force Demons, Terror from Beyond, Waru, Mother Talzin, Gethzerion, Onimi, Irek Ismaren, Sarasu Taalon, World Razer, Sekot, Yuuzhan'tar, and other exotic entities.

---

VOTE!

Valkorion, no question.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Darth Plagueis, no question.

Plagueis

now everyone vote the same, and watch AP implode

Darth Plagueis wins, read my essay before commenting

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t649256.html

DISCLAIMER: THE INITIAL DESCRIPTION STATES THIS MATCH-UP IS DECIDING RANKING #4. THAT IS A TYPO. AS STATED IN THE TITLE, THIS IS FOR #5.

Mace. He can factually compete with Sidious, and as an eight bordering nine, borders right on his level. Mace also has been compared favorably to Yoda multiple times. This should be sufficient to place him above Plagueis who was a massive power boost away from TPM Sidious.

Plagueis can telepathically reach out to every being in the galaxy, set landscapes on fire with his lightning, and scales above fotress level tk. Plagueis has also provoked a direct intervention of the force which punished him for the first feat I mentioned.

Overall that resume seems more impressive than what Valk has to offer, and Mace is likely more powerful.

Mace is also is the best duelist here, bordering on the level of Anakin, Yoda, and Sidious, the best 3 duelists up to their point in history.

Finally, Mace's superconducting loop allows him to nullify any potential power edge or hax either Plagueis or Valk may wield ensuring he's the most powerful combatant here.


The superconducting loop of Vapaad isn't circumstantial as the inner darkness Mace received from his revelation regarding Sidious remained something Mace could draw on even after he "turned to stone" and "pure jedi master". Mace overcame the emotional turmoil regarding his revelation about Sidious and was still able to use Vapaad's superconducting loop which proves Mace retains the inner darkness he receives.

Can't decide over Plagueis or Nihilus...

Plagueis is considerably less powerful than TPM Sidious. How does he edge Mace, someone who can factually compete with and borders on the level of ROTS Sidious, is favorably compared to Yoda multiple times, can nullify any power or hax edge Plagy wields, and is a superior swordsman?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The superconducting loop of Vapaad isn't circumstantial as the inner darkness Mace received from his revelation regarding Sidious remained something Mace could draw on even after he "turned to stone" and "pure jedi master". ?

Mace was able to use a superconducting loop against Sidious due to an increase in the amount of inner darkness inside of him after learning about Palpatine's true identity. We know this boost wasn't a temporal one because Mace was still able to draw on it even after overcoming his initial emotional turmoil:

Uh, TPM Sidious = Plagueis.

Originally posted by samappo
Uh, TPM Sidious = Plagueis.
That was before this:

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Mace was able to use a superconducting loop against Sidious due to an increase in the amount of inner darkness inside of him after learning about Palpatine's true identity. We know this boost wasn't a temporal one because Mace was still able to draw on it even after overcoming his initial emotional turmoil: facing the last Dark Lord of the Sith

You are ignoring that one critical factor that the source of his emotional turmoil that he used to bring Vaapad to new heights was the express threat of Palpatine. Palpatine threatened to destroy the Republic and the Jedi and everything Mace stood for and that is why he was able to fight so hard and so well in that engagement:

Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life. More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways. He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.

In a contextless engagement with Hego that emotional investment will not be present, he needs that to tap into Vaapad to the extend he did here.

Mace could not compete with Sidious with the force. When Sidious actually uses lightning we are told it bends back Mace's blade and that it was too much for even Vaapad, so. You're wrong.

Yeah, that's still not an external amplification. Yoda was also fighting for more than his life against Sidious, just as Kenobi was fighting for more than his life vs Anakin.

Nothing in your quote implies the emotional investment was specific to Sidious. It simply states that Mace was fighting at his best because of what was at stake which again, isn't an external amplification. And given the stipulations of the op:

We would be taking Mace fighting at the best of his ability.

Originally posted by samappo
Mace could not compete with Sidious with the force. When Sidious actually uses lightning we are told it bends back Mace's blade and that it was too much for even Vaapad, so. You're wrong. Hego is supreme.

Originally posted by samappo
Mace could not compete with Sidious with the force. When Sidious actually uses lightning we are told it bends back Mace's blade and that it was too much for even Vaapad, so. You're wrong.
Uh, what? How does losing a struggle equate to not being able to compete. You realize that the script has Mace, as an amputee, partially deflecting Sidious's lighting with his bare hands?

Or that the senior novel has Mace, off guard because he was snapped out of Vapaad, redirecting Sidious's telekinesis?

Mace can factually, per word of god, compete with Sidious and has been stated to border on Siidous's level.

There's no getting around that.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yeah, that's still not an external amplification. Yoda was also fighting for more than his life against Sidious, just as Kenobi was fighting for more than his life vs Anakin.

Nothing in your quote implies the emotional investment was specific to Sidious. It simply states that Mace was fighting at his best because of what was at stake which again, isn't an external amplification. And given the stipulations of the op:

We would be taking Mace fighting at the best of his ability. And the Republic was at stake because of Sidious, it had everything to do with him.

Yeah, maybe for a full 5-10 seconds before being completely overwhelmed. Windu apologetics are getting out of hand.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And the Republic was at stake because of Sidious, it had everything to do with him.
As per guidelines, Mace would be fighting at peak mental state.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And the Republic was at stake because of Sidious, it had everything to do with him.

Right, but if I was to put any other opponent in that same situation with identical stakes, Mace would still be motivated to fight to the best of his ability.

Being motivated to fight at your best isn't an external amplification, and we're looking at these combatants at their best, not when they aren't sufficiently motivated.

And be consistent. If fighting at your best is an external amplification, then you have to accept Yoda scaling off of Sidious as bogus because Yoda was also explicitly stated to be fighting for more than his life vs Sidious.

Originally posted by samappo
Yeah, maybe for a full 5-10 seconds before being completely overwhelmed.
Right, when he was using one hand after his other hand had just been cut off.

You can think what you will of forumers who disagree with you, but there's no getting around the word of god, Mace can factually compete with Sidious. Mace losing does not contradict this. There's also Mace factually bordering on Sidious's level, and being favorably compared to Yoda multiple times.

That's more than enough to place him above Plagueis who's confined to being considerably less powerful than TPM Sidious.

I see there is a lot more votes than posts.

PLEASE POST WHO YOU THINK WINS.

Valkorian.

VALKORION

THANKS FOR COMMENTING.

Originally posted by samappo
Can't decide over Plagueis or Nihilus...

You'd be wasting your vote on Nihilus. Plagueis is more skilled anyway so vote him.

Originally posted by Azronger
You'd be wasting your vote on Nihilus. Plagueis is more skilled anyway so vote him. Nihilus is a one trick pony and Hego will just no-sell his drain with midichlorian manipulation.

If there's gonna be a split between Mace and Plagueis with the PT voters, make sure to do both vs Valk in separate polls, Ant (assuming Valk doesn't win outright).

Mace Windu.

My case for him was made on page 1.
There's also some good arguments for him here:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/mace-windu-vs-darth-plageuis-1627967/?page=2
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/mace-windu-vs-darth-plageuis-1627967/?page=3
Nova's remains the best though:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/revan-shadow-of-revan-vs-mace-windu-1780635/?page=1
(Post#42)

Originally posted by Azronger
If there's gonna be a split between Mace and Plagueis with the PT voters, make sure to do both vs Valk in separate polls, Ant (assuming Valk doesn't win outright).

Why tho

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why tho

Because Valkorion's gotta die, of course.

Just kidding. I may consider voting for him this round.

Valkorion... again

Also, regarding Mace vs Plagueis, I feel like people are overlooking Plagueis' midi-chlorian manipulation. Yes, if we assume Mace can contend with Palpatine, he is above Plagueis in power, but Plagueis can circumvent that with by taking control of Mace's midi-chlorians. Literally, he can bypass any power gap and mentally dominate his adversary, strip them of their Force power completely, or kill them outright.

Plagueis could simply will Mace to die by killing his midi-chlorians, which he noted was far easier than creating new midi-chlorians. The latter he could achieve faster than Sidious' Force Lightning was able to kill him, so in a fraction of a second. If that's harder than willing someone to die, then he could accomplish killing someone in an even shorter time. Mace would die in less than a second; Plagueis would merely require a stray thought to accomplish it.

Same applies for Valkorion, too. His physical vessel is defenceless against Plagueis tampering with its midi-chlorians. He would either dominate Valkorion or just kill his body. As for his spirit, it can't - despite what many may believe - sustain itself outside a nexus, so it would dissipate on its own without Plagueis requiring to do anything.

Proof for Plagueis formidability can be found in my essay which everyone should read before commenting on the victor of this match.

Mace

Valkorion

I would also like genuine reasoning from those who voted for Valkorion other than AP, LeGenD or Nephtard why they think he beats Plagueis and if anything can be done to change their minds.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yes, if we assume Mace can contend with Palpatine, he is above Plagueis in power Not really, even when fighting with peak Vaapad, his abilities are still almost entirely relative to the power of his opponent.

Originally posted by Azronger
If there's gonna be a split between Mace and Plagueis with the PT voters, make sure to do both vs Valk in separate polls, Ant (assuming Valk doesn't win outright).

Ant, this is exactly what I was talking about. They want to rig the entire poll so they can keep spam voting. That's what you allowed them to do last time.

And they keep trying to influence voters into changing last minute.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not really, even when fighting with peak Vaapad, his abilities are still almost entirely relative to the power of his opponent.

Yeah, this is why I don't think Mace is winning this.

He has the potential to match or exceed the main contenders here, but it relies on him having a dark sider near him who's that powerful. On his own? I doubt it.

Good point. If we look at the big picture Mace is the least versatile combatant here.

But I was also thinking that if at best Windu can match Hego's power output, Plagueis can find a number of ways to undermine him.

Valkorion.

Now I'm ready to vote for the Sith entity Valkorion.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion.

Why? Time manipulation?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Good point. If we look at the big picture Mace is the least versatile combatant here.

But I was also thinking that if at best Windu can match Hego's power output, Plagueis can find a number of ways to undermine him.
Based on Fact Files, I'd argue Mace is able to reach ROTS Sidious levels on his own merit - and that the superconducting loop and other factors are what is maintaining that level.

Originally posted by Azronger
If there's gonna be a split between Mace and Plagueis with the PT voters, make sure to do both vs Valk in separate polls, Ant (assuming Valk doesn't win outright).
Do you mean, like, a perfect 50/50 split? In that case, I would wait for a member to vote on one of them.

---

VALKORION (7):
DarthAnt66
Haschwalth
Nephthys
Total Warrior
AncientPower
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Geistalt

DARTH PLAGUEIS (3):
i_like_swords
Beniboybling
Azronger

MACE WINDU (2):
Rockydonovang
JKBart

Originally posted by Azronger
Also, regarding Mace vs Plagueis, I feel like people are overlooking Plagueis' midi-chlorian manipulation. Yes, if we assume Mace can contend with Palpatine, he is above Plagueis in power, but Plagueis can circumvent that with by taking control of Mace's midi-chlorians. Literally, he can bypass any power gap and mentally dominate his adversary, strip them of their Force power completely, or kill them outright.

Plagueis could simply will Mace to die by killing his midi-chlorians, which he noted was far easier than creating new midi-chlorians. The latter he could achieve faster than Sidious' Force Lightning was able to kill him, so in a fraction of a second. If that's harder than willing someone to die, then he could accomplish killing someone in an even shorter time. Mace would die in less than a second; Plagueis would merely require a stray thought to accomplish it.
everyone should read before commenting on the victor of this match.
The super conducting loop would neutralize this, no?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, this is why I don't think Mace is winning this.

He has the potential to match or exceed the main contenders here, but it relies on him having a dark sider near him who's that powerful. On his own? I doubt it.
Independent of Vapaad, Mace is still an 8 bordering 9 and is favorably compared to Yoda numerous times.

Plagueis on the other hand is confined to being well below TPM Palps.

Independent of Vaapad and even with it the same Windu who was compared favourably with Yoda has been frequently challenged by individuals that Plagueis would annihilate with ease. So I do not find those statements particular pertinent or relevant. And as I recall Gillard relates Windu's ability to go 9 as related to exceptional circumstances (and maybe even the RotS duel alone) i.e. his ability to channel the dark side.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The super conducting loop would neutralize this, no? If anything his MM would neutralise the loop. Plagueis can pretty much program his midi-chlorians to do what he wants, and Windu's power relies on channelling Force energy that passes through those cells.

Or alternatively he can just close his windpipe, drain his Force connection, or bury him with projectiles. There are a number of ways Vaapad can be circumvented.

UnuThul

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Independent of Vaapad and even with it the same Windu who was compared favourably with Yoda has been frequently challenged by individuals that Plagueis would annihilate with ease.
Yeah, that wasn't Mace in his prime. Also, if people can challenge Mace, that marks them as more impressive, not the reverse.

Mace has the word of god, Gillard's tier system, and even a minority of statements calling him equal or superior to Yoda. Holistically that's a strong case from him being close to Sidious and Yoda.

Mace's vapaad is only an explanation for how he could stalemate Sidious, not how he could compete with him.

And I find that to be sufficient for superiority over Plagueis who likely is eclipsed by EoTPM Sidious by a large margin given
-> Luceno chooses to describe Sidious's power growth(before which he was a virtual equal for Plagueis)as something capable of shaking the alignment of planets and as a gravatic shift. I'm aware this is hyperbole but such hyperbole would only be included if the author was intending Sidious's power growth to be massive.

-> Sidious being much more powerful is supported by his ability to shift the balance of the force on his own, as opposed to Plagueis who needed the help of an equal to perform such a feat.

It stands to reason that TPM Sids is likely >> Plagueis, and that's before a decade plus of growth(it's been explicitly stated he grew in power).

Mace is likely close to ROTS Sidious who's inferior incarnation was already well above Plagueis.

Hence, Mace is likely significantly more impressive of a combatant than Plagueis is.

The "unamped Windu is close to Palpatine" theory doesn't hold with the novelization that well though.

The options are also a little odd: why no Caedus or suited Vader?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The "unamped Windu is close to Palpatine" theory doesn't hold with the novelization that well though.
Why?

Didn't the novel have an unamped Mace, off guard as he'd just been thrown out of Vapaad, partially deflecting Palp's TK?

Mace not being able to react to Sidious's inital blitz of Tiin and Kolar can be attributed to shock and either way, the movie, which shows Mace reacting to Sidious even on his initial attack takes precedent.

Originally posted by Azronger
I would also like genuine reasoning from those who voted for Valkorion other than AP, LeGenD or Nephtard why they think he beats Plagueis and if anything can be done to change their minds.
I am not partaking in these polls.

I do not need to rely on a poll to decide which character can do what and stronger than the other.

Yeah, in the novel Windu can barely react as the b team gets killed. He only managed to match Sidious' because he got time to amp up.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The options are also a little odd: why no Caedus or suited Vader?
I list characters most likely to be voted for.

If you want Caedus or Vader, you can vote "other" and write-in the vote.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The options are also a little odd: why no Caedus or suited Vader? Uh, why should he add them? I don't think anyone has Jacen > Plagueis lol.

They probably will be added alongside Exar.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Independent of Vaapad and even with it the same Windu who was compared favourably with Yoda has been frequently challenged by individuals that Plagueis would annihilate with ease. Like Talzin. Oh; wait.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not partaking in these polls.

I do not need to rely on a poll to decide which character can do what and stronger than the other.



He deliberately excluded you from his question...

(ah you edited the post)

Originally posted by samappo
Yeah, in the novel Windu can barely react as the b team gets killed. He only managed to match Sidious' because he got time to amp up.
Yeah, even if we ignore Sidious killed the two members of the b team with a surprise attack(Mace reacted fine with Fisto's alive), the movie takes precedent and has Mace stepping back on Sidious's first attack:
https://youtu.be/4ESOrF_u1hg?t=40s

Mace then proceeds to react to multiple attacks from Sidious, both in the novelization and the movie while Fisto is alive despite not having sunk into Vapaad yet.

The whole, "Mace can't even react to Sidious" is easily disprovable nonsense irrelevant of the source you cherrypick.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Like Talzin. Oh; wait.
Talzin was seemingly crap compared to Dooku, which only strengthens the case that Mace grew massively as a few months before the war he was recognized as Dooku's equal.

This is difficult. Despite Plagueis's generally greater power, if we consider the particulars of Vaapad and Shatterpoint, Mace at his peak is able to go toe-to-toe with Sidious in a duel.

We have plenty of evidence suggesting that Mace doesn't need Vapaad to compete with the likes of ROTS Sids.

Plagueis likely is a good deal belowe EoTPM Sids.

It seems illogical to me that Plagueis would wield "generally greater power."

Originally posted by Azronger
Also, regarding Mace vs Plagueis, I feel like people are overlooking Plagueis' midi-chlorian manipulation. Yes, if we assume Mace can contend with Palpatine, he is above Plagueis in power
Also, is this a versus, or an analysis of who's the greater combatant?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang

Mace not being able to react to Sidious's inital blitz of Tiin and Kolar can be attributed to shock and either way, the movie, which shows Mace reacting to Sidious even on his initial attack takes precedent.

The movie doesn't really contradict anything; Mace is "reacting" to Sidious in that he doesn't immediately die, but he's very visibly being driven back. Doesn't the novelization suggest that Mace would've fallen pretty soon after the others had it not been for vaapad, which he may not have time to sink into in a 1 v 1?

ROTS BTS documentaries kinda destroy the idea Sidious and Mace are far apart.

I might write a post on my full thoughts on the fght.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The movie doesn't really contradict anything; Mace is "reacting" to Sidious in that he doesn't immediately die, but he's very visibly being driven back.

Which only suggests inferiority, not that he can't legitmately contend.

Nope. Mace is only described as sinking into Vapaad after they'd already been fighting for a sustainedlengthyrn up).

There's also an off guard Mace partially deflecting Sidious's tk when taken out of Vapaad and the script has an amputee Mace initally deflecting Palp's lightning.

The idea that Mace is an easy out for Sidious is an unsupported one.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is difficult. Despite Plagueis's generally greater power, if we consider the particulars of Vaapad and Shatterpoint, Mace at his peak is able to go toe-to-toe with Sidious in a duel.

According to Sidious, though, the Sith grew past the use of lightsabers; he and Plagueis don't need them. Mace wouldn't be able to agglomerate the energies required to replicate the level of performance he had when facing Sidious anyway because said energies where siphoned off of Sidious, who isn't present here. At best Mace can stalemate Plagueis in a lightsaber duel; at worst he gets killed before he knows it by the Muun's tampering of his midi-chlorians.

Vote Darth Plagueis

Originally posted by Azronger
because said energies where siphoned off of Sidious:
Eh...

Mace should be able to function as Sidious level for a period of time w/o any of that stuff.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Which only suggests inferiority, not that he can't legitmately contend.


Ehh, being able to block some lightsaber strikes while tag teaming the other guy and retreating frantically doesn't really constitute competing.



I'd have to read the passage again, as I thought it clearly stated Windu would have fallen soon had it not been for the amp.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I thought it clearly stated Windu would have fallen soon had it not been for the amp.
lmfaowhat

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Eh...

Mace should be able to function as Sidious level for a period of time w/o any of that stuff.

Perhaps. Going by Gillard's system, the man has ranked Mace as both an 8 and a 9 just like Anakin, and has noted the difference between those levels is the dark side. I'd imagine you're right since Vaapad functions to transmogrify his inner darkness to bolster his combative output, and he had plenty more than usual during the fight at the Chancellor's office. If we assume the same mindset here, he could probably maintain Palpatine's level of power at least for a short period.

Plagueis still kills him, though.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
UnuThul

facepalm

Originally posted by Azronger
facepalm

He's basically stated to be more powerful than at least the Luke that others have seen, can bend back entire turbolaser barrages and has the potential of trillions of beings to draw from. It's as if Vitiate absorbed a thousand Ziosts, but put all the power into amping himself rather than life extension.

The biggest issue for me is how do you even hurt Plagueis? While drunk, totally caught off guard and not erecting any Force defences, Plagueis was out-healing Sidious' full-power lightning, where he drew on the Force more deeply than he ever had.

Now imagine Plagueis sober, combat ready, using all of his defensive and offensive ability. He should be able to repair any damage that gets through nigh-instantly, and the amount of damage getting through is typically going to be less than trying to face-tank lightning from Sidious. The longer the fight goes on, the stronger Plagueis will become.

And then there's the dubious ability of an opponent to defend against their own midichlorians being attacked, albeit Valk and Nihilus are spirits tethering themselves to a body/armour, so they don't have that issue. Unless a loss for them constitutes losing the body or armour and being rendered a disembodied spirit.

If we're asking who the most powerful is overall and in a fight, it has to be Plagueis for me. His power, extremely deep and wide knowledge of the dark side and midichlorian healing make him extremely versatile and hard to actually kill. Add in a unique offensive edge with MM, top-tier lightsaber skill and speed sufficient to oneshot-blitz TPM Maul, and I'm not sure who else here could take him. I'm dubious anyone else is powerful enough save Mace at his very peak, but they're either lacking in offensive/defensive Force options or lacking in the physical/sabers department, or both. Plagueis has a strong mixture of everything you could ask for.

Even Valk's time stop, however the hell that actually works, can be broken out of as seen by Vaylin, so it's clearly not a trump card. Nor does Mace's Vaapad do anything to neutralise Plagueis' Force power advantage.

Excellent post ILS.

Originally posted by ILS

Even Valk's time stop, however the hell that actually works, can be broken out of as seen by Vaylin, so it's clearly not a trump card. Nor does Mace's Vaapad do anything to neutralise Plagueis' Force power advantage.

I dunno how vaapad and MM would interact tbh.

Honestly though, I'd consider putting Caedus, Krayt and suit Vader above Windu depending on the context. Against light-siders Caedus and Krayt probably get the nod, not sure about Vader.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He's basically stated to be more powerful than at least the Luke that others have seen, can bend back entire turbolaser barrages and has the potential of trillions of beings to draw from. It's as if Vitiate absorbed a thousand Ziosts, but put all the power into amping himself rather than life extension.

Not my point. facepalm

Originally posted by ILS
Even Valk's time stop, however the hell that actually works, can be broken out of as seen by Vaylin, so it's clearly not a trump card. Nor does Mace's Vaapad do anything to neutralise Plagueis' Force power advantage.
Why not?

Valkorion was immensely weakened and Vaylin was well-experienced at having the technique used against her. Neither is the case vs Plagueis. The buffer it takes for him to break out - if he even can - will be his death.

There's no basis to the idea Darth Plagueis can no-show, say, Valkorion's Force lightning in a combat setting. He might be able to resist it temporarily (after being beaten in battle) but he will succumb.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

There's no basis to the idea Darth Plagueis can no-show, say, Valkorion's Force lightning in a combat setting. He might be able to resist it temporarily but he will succumb.

He no-shows Palpatine, already the most powerful sith in history drawing more darkly on the dark side than he ever had, at point blank range while in a drunken stupor and only dies from suffocation.

Plagueis laughs at any of Valkorion's attacks tbh.

Lmfao, no he doesn't. He's on the floor and Palpatine blasts him with lightning. He wonders why he didn't use a barrier and realizes Plagueis is trying to use MM. Palpatine proceeds to torture the **** out of him as Plagueis slowly dies.

We also don't know the amount of concentration needed for Plagueis to do this, so saying he could in combat while also, say, dueling and whatnot is pretty absurd.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lmfao, no he doesn't. He's on the floor and Palpatine blasts him with lightning. He wonders why he didn't use a barrier and realizes Plagueis is trying to use MM. Palpatine proceeds to torture the **** out of him as Plagueis slowly dies.

We also don't know the amount of concentration needed for Plagueis to do this, so saying he could in combat while also, say, dueling and whatnot is pretty absurd.

Plagueis died from suffocation, he wasn't otherwise suffering physical harm from Sidious, who was explicitly going all-out.

Anyway, the argument isn't that Plagueis will literally stand there and let Valkorion attack him from the lultz, but he does have a haxx that makes Valkorion's victory even more implausible.

Quote he never suffered any physical harm?

It's an irrelevant argument since there's no basis he can do it in combat. Unless you want to argue that, on his knees, Plagueis delays his death temporarily as Valkorian finishes him off, sure.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Why not?

Valkorion was immensely weakened and Vaylin was well-experienced at having the technique used against her. Neither is the case vs Plagueis. The buffer it takes for him to break out - if he even can - will be his death.

There's no basis to the idea Darth Plagueis can no-show, say, Valkorion's Force lightning in a combat setting. He might be able to resist it temporarily (after being beaten in battle) but he will succumb. Still proves it isn't a trump card, and knowledge of the technique seems less relevant than simply having the power to resist it. You're committing a no-limits fallacy by suggesting it'll automatically work on Plagueis.

I would argue there is plenty of basis he can heal against Valk's lightning, given the Sidious example, but even providing he can't out-heal it permanently, he doesn't need to because, he isn't drunk, ambushed and defenceless here. He can use barriers, tutaminis, his lightsaber for defence, relocate, retreat, heal and come back to the fight etc. He can be back in peak shape even if Valk breaks his defences. The midichlorians are creating new tissue to replace damaged tissue in real time.

Valk's only saving grace is that he's a spirit which makes him harder to kill, but given that even Kun could destroy spirits, I doubt Plagueis will be incapable. Nor do I think Valk has a way to put him down realistically before he expends himself.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lmfao, no he doesn't. He's on the floor and Palpatine blasts him with lightning. He wonders why he didn't use a barrier and realizes Plagueis is trying to use MM. Palpatine proceeds to torture the **** out of him as Plagueis slowly dies.

And that's the key. Even while drunk, suffocating and presumably not at full power, he was as vulnerable as a non-Force user yet Sheev - even if we are generous - was only slowly managing to kill him, while going all-out.

Valkorion can do nothing.



Plagueis wouldn't even draw his lightsaber here. It's a useless trinket and he doesn't share his apprentice's egotistical need to showboat, not to mention his general distaste for dueling.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Quote he never suffered any physical harm?


It's more that he isn't described as suffering any harm other than suffocation. Where else have you seen people dying from force lightning due to suffocation again? Usually one dies first from, you know, the lightning.



I'd say being drunk and sleeping balances out the concentration part, especially as he is able to launch a telekinetic attack while doing it.

Will respond after school

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Quote he never suffered any physical harm?

It's an irrelevant argument since there's no basis he can do it in combat. Unless you want to argue that, on his knees, Plagueis delays his death temporarily as Valkorian finishes him off, sure.

Urm, so you don't think successfully defending against an all-out Sidious with MM counts as a combat situation?

Also, even discounting MM entirely, Plagueis' standard Force Barriers are durable enough to tank hits from lightsaber blades and army-busting, planetary firestorms per scaling from Bane and Zannah. What does Valkorion have to exceed the potency of a lightsaber to suggest he'd be able to even scratch Plagueis?

Nothing. RotS Sidious with his lightsaber-bending lightning may threaten Plagueis, but Valkorion cannot. Plagueis just has too many ways to win (MM, lightsaber, Force attacks, etc.) and clearly a vastly greater potency in the Force.

lets try not to spam ant with 6 posts to respond to later, thanks

Plagueis wins in 15 seconds.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Plagueis wins in 15 seconds.

*1.5

Also, Plagueis' other feats outside midi-chlorian manipulation include TP'ing sextillions of organisms, causing continental earthquakes and a global ice age. Given that Ziost was clearly a ritual, Valkorion has nothing in the planetary much less galactic range to establish him as a threat to Plagueis. He would get stomped even without midi-chlorian manipulation.

And none of this was done with nexuses.

Originally posted by samappo
Mace could not compete with Sidious with the force. When Sidious actually uses lightning we are told it bends back Mace's blade and that it was too much for even Vaapad, so. You're wrong.

And not only that, but Sidious blasts Mace using his full power and doesn't turn Mace into ash.

Valkorion

Originally posted by The Ellimist
And none of this was done with nexuses.

Naboo was a nexus but Plagueis more than doubled in power since then given my Tenebrous scaling.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lmfao, no he doesn't. He's on the floor and Palpatine blasts him with lightning. He wonders why he didn't use a barrier and realizes Plagueis is trying to use MM. Palpatine proceeds to torture the **** out of him as Plagueis slowly dies.

We also don't know the amount of concentration needed for Plagueis to do this, so saying he could in combat while also, say, dueling and whatnot is pretty absurd. Some notes:

-Plagueis is drunk
-He is attacked in his sleep
-He is slowly suffocating from the onset of the battle because the lightning grounds itself on his breathing device
-He at no point erects a barrier
-As a result of his suffocation, his muscles, brain, heart(s) and lungs are all being starved of vital oxygen, so all of his critical systems will be failing, his vision will be fogging over, his movement will be impaired, his vital organs including his brain are suffering permanent damage (as Sidious notes) etc

Now read this:


So some observations that are important. Sidious tried his hardest, harder than he ever had, to kill Plagueis with lightning. Yet, Plagueis is healing through it, and Sidious notes this. But Sidious also mentions repeatedly, and it's noted in the text, that Plagueis cannot heal himself if he is starved of oxygen, and indeed, he is starved of oxygen from the very beginning of the fight. All of the damage done to Plagueis is described by Sidious and the narrator in terms of oxygen deprivation. Sidious' victory is described entirely in terms of him choking Plagueis to death. Sidious dispenses with the lightning even though he put his full effort into using it, and then adjusts his strategy to starving him of air. And he attributes Plagueis' failure to heal himself not in terms of a lack of ability, but because he can't do it if he's choking to death.

Concentration needed? Well there's a passive and an active element to it. Passively, Plagueis is always combating aging/tissue damage and increasing his midichlorian count, as noted earlier in the book. He can then speed by this up by tasking his midichlorians to heal tissue, and they'll do it in the background for him, as Sidious notes "retask your body to undo the damage already done" - and there's also an active element, which we see when Plagueis doesn't defend himself but simply heals himself through Sidious' lightning.

It's much the same as Krayt's dark transfer in terms of combat. You take a second out of combat, heal, and get back to it. Although there's also an element where it runs in the background.

The idea that he can heal himself while creating a Force storm, while ambushed, drunk and oxygen starved, but he won't be able to with the full range of his abilities and perfect health, which would involve less than a second out of combat, is pretty absurd to say the least. It would be the same as any other Force user, except he can be healing while he erects a barrier or retreats. He can be healing while he's fighting with a lightsaber.

I'll just respond to ILS' posts, which I assume covers Elms and Azs. I'm not going through all of them.

I have an unexpected study hall, so:
Originally posted by ILS
Still proves it isn't a trump card, and knowledge of the technique seems less relevant than simply having the power to resist it. You're committing a no-limits fallacy by suggesting it'll automatically work on Plagueis.
It should be noted I was always against the idea of Valkorion's time-warping being a "trump card." I don't think any Force power is immune to weakness - hence my belief that midichlorian manipulation is not as OP as you are suggesting. I'll be getting to midichlorian manipulation when I read (I haven't yet) your latest post, so anyway --

My point was, though, that this advantage will likely surpass midichlorian manipulation in combat-efficiency. I'm public about how the ability is ambiguous in its use, but it is apparent that it can be used sudden enough that an active Force barrier cannot be thrown up (and I don't think you would argue Darth Plagueis' Lesser Force barrier is powerful enough to resist such an attack). So, Plagueis will be held for a period of time, especially since he first has to process what the hell is going on before he does anything. I'm not going to get into the argument if he can or not - for the sake of our conversation I will say he can - but I think it's reasonable to assume whatever period of time it takes to process and break free will be used by Valkorion to the absolute advantage. Because Plagueis will be stopped in time for whatever duration, he will be unable to use midichlorian manipulation or any Force shields, therefore meaning a potent attack by Valkorion would likely obliterate his Muun body.

EDIT: To clarify, I don't think an unexpected Plagueis could break free from an esoteric ability faster than Valkorian can unleash his power. There is no indication - visual or otherwise - that Valkorion is strained by doing this, so in theory he could spam this ability until he does successfully destroy Plagueis' unprotected body, if we want to go that route, also.



I think you expanded on your explanation on that in your second post, so I'll respond to that there. If not, I'll re-quote it again and respond based on the insight you provided with midichlorian manipulation in that post.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'll just respond to ILS' posts, which I assume covers Elms and Azs. I'm not going through all of them. Good plan. I'll wait till you're done with it all.

@Az ouch. Valk's all out of tricks it seems.

Originally posted by ILS
"I could save you, of course. Return you from the brink, as you did Venamis._I could retask your body to repair the damage already done to your lungs, your hearts, your aged brain."

Brilliant observation, ILS. So Sidious can also command midi-chlorians to heal badly damaged tissue, and not just any midi-chlorians - Plagueis' midi-chlorians. If we take Sidious on his word, he could mess with other people's midi-chlorians to heal and presumably, given Plagueis noted this was much easier, to kill them also. Even TPM Sidious can tap into the very source code of the Force and one-shot virtually anyone it seems. Damn.

An addendum to your points, though: Plagueis does not need to actively command his midi-chlorians to get results. For example, Plagueis simply gave instructions to Veruna's midi-chlorians to kill their host, and Plagueis noted they would continue to so do on their own even should Plagueis leave his side.

"Let me explain what is happening to you," Plagueis said. "The cells that make up all living things contain within them organelles known as midi-chlorians. They are, in addition to being the basis for life, the elements that enable beings like me to perceive and use the Force. As the result of a lifetime of study, I have learned how to manipulate midi-chlorians, and I have instructed the limited number you possess to return to their source. In plain Basic, Veruna, I am killing you."

Veruna's face was losing color, and his breathing had slowed. "Bring... me back. I can still be... of service... to you..."

"But you are, Your Majesty. A celebrated ancient poet once said that every death lessened him, for he considered himself to be a brother to every living being. I, on the other hand, have come to understand that every death I oversee nourishes and empowers me, for I am a true Sith."

"No... better than... an Anzati."

"The brain eaters? What does better than mean to those of us who have passed beyond notions of good and evil? Are you better than Bon Tapalo? Are you better than Queen Padmé Amidala? I am the only one fit to answer the question. Better are those who do my bidding." Plagueis placed his hand atop Veruna's. "I'll remain with you for a while as you meld with the Force. But at some point, I will have to leave you at the threshold to continue on your own."

"Don't do this... Damask. Please..."

"I am Darth Plagueis, Veruna. Your shepherd."

Darth Plagueis

Plagueis merely needs to pull the switch and set his midi-chlorians to healing mode. He doesn't need to concentrate on them and can combat Valkorion while they heal him independent of his will. Similarly he could put Valkorion's midi-chlorians to kill mode and watch in satisfaction as the Not-So-Immortal Emperor dies a very mortal death, unable to do anything to stop his ignoble fate. Or he could add in conscious effort to speed up the process, and kill Valkorion in less than a second.

Exactly, yeah. He can simply speed up the process by micro managing it, but otherwise it's a heal-over-time.

So Valk's puny muggle body gets midichlorian'd and his spirit vanishes in the absence of a nexus or tethering point. His time manipulation (or whatever it is in reality) can be overpowered by scrubs like Vaylin, so Plagueis should be able to react to it easily enough (like how he instantly reacted to a drunken sleeping ambush from Sidious). This is made easier by the fact Vaylin simply over powered it, there's no special knowledge or technique required to do so that has been made apparent.

GG. It's all over.

I know you said you would wait until I finish both responses - and I obviously have not yet (class is almost over, so I'll be reading and responding at home) - but I feel obligated to *again* point out that spirit Valkorion was in an *immensely* weakened state that is no where near the potency of full-powered Valkorion.

Sorta like how Plagueis was drunk and asleep.

If Plagueis can do this to Valkorion; then he absolutely owns Palpatine.

Valkorion

Originally posted by Azronger
"I have instructed the limited number you possess to return to their source."

If you analyze the grammar of the sentence, you can clearly see that you have the word 'have' along 'instructed', that means it did not happen right there and then.

When you use 'have' in a sentence it means that is the "present perfect" form. Basically, when we use the Present Perfect it means that something has happened at some point before now.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sorta like how Plagueis was drunk and asleep.
Uh, those situations aren't even comparable.

That's not to say one is more hindered than the other - although one likely is far more so - just that the comparison doesn't work.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I know you said you would wait until I finish both responses - and I obviously have not yet (class is almost over, so I'll be reading and responding at home) - but I feel obligated to *again* point out that spirit Valkorion was in an *immensely* weakened state that is no where near the potency of full-powered Valkorion.

And I feel obligated to *again* point out that Plagueis is *immensely* more powerful than peak Valkorion per his galactic TP, Naboo climate/earthquake, cosmic unbalancing, and overpowering the will of the Force feats as well as general powerscaling, not to mention being a sufficient threat in the Force's eyes to warrant a demigod to take him down - a demigod whose might you already recognize full well.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
If you analyze the grammar of the sentence, you can clearly see that you have the word 'have' along 'instructed', that means it did not happen right there and then.

When you use 'have' in a sentence it means that is the "present perfect" form. Basically, when we use the Present Perfect it means that something has happened at some point before now.

Are you a troll?

Also the part where his death was shaking stars.

Originally posted by ILS
Also the part where his death was shaking stars.

More than shaking, the galaxy's celestial orbits were physically reconfigured.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Are you a troll?

How exactly makes me a troll?

I don't think you'd say to your friend, 'I have drunk my cup of tea." when you did it only a few seconds before you meet him. You'd say, "I drank my cup of tea."

Originally posted by The Ellimist
More than shaking, the galaxy's celestial orbits were physically reconfigured.

When metaphor is taken to an entire new level.

Originally posted by Azronger
And I feel obligated to *again* point out that Plagueis is *immensely* more powerful than peak Valkorion per his galactic TP, Naboo climate/earthquake, cosmic unbalancing, and overpowering the will of the Force feats as well as general powerscaling, not to mention being a sufficient threat in the Force's eyes to warrant a demigod to take him down - a demigod whose might you already recognize full well.

Nothing what you said here is true, Az.

1. Plagueis' presence didn't affect Naboo. If that were to be true; then he'd affect any planet when he steps foot on it. The climate has nothing to do with Plagueis, man. The climate was just changed when we were introduced to Plagueis there.
2. He never unbalanced the Force. Because the Force allowed the imbalance to happen in the first place. It didn't respond against their challenge.
3. They didn't overpower the will of the Force. It's them who thought that based on the Force's silence of not reacting at their shift back on Sojourn.
4. As I said before: The Force allowed them to cause the imbalance and it created the Chosen One. The Chosen One has been foreseen long before Plagueis and Sidious' rise to power. It was bound to happen. Destiny.
5. Nothing that Anakin has done suggests he is a god. Not even Lucas suggested he is a god. You're taking things out of context. It is obviously that Lucas' vision also left a mark on your perception about Star Wars' Legends.

Not only that, but you take things out of context when you see fragments of text.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
When metaphor is taken to an entire new level. What exactly did the planet shaking and stars shaking/reconfiguring represent in this metaphor?

Originally posted by Azronger
And I feel obligated to *again* point out that Plagueis is *immensely* more powerful than peak Valkorion per his galactic TP, Naboo climate/earthquake, cosmic unbalancing, and overpowering the will of the Force feats as well as general powerscaling, not to mention being a sufficient threat in the Force's eyes to warrant a demigod to take him down - a demigod whose might you already recognize full well.
That has nothing to do with my point.

How do people reconcile Plagueis supposedly affecting Naboo's climate with him later stating that he's unable to even create rain? mmm

The earthquakes and freak weather event Plagueis caused on Naboo were a result of him disturbing the planet's Force nexus (in all likelihood) - it has nothing to do with alter environment, he did it with his mere presence.

Then why doesn't he alter any planet he visits with his mere presence? Why didn't he alter Sojourn's climate, Coruscant's? Basically each planet he set foot on?

Unless his so-called altering climate feat was boosted by Naboo's nexus.

And if you read the novel, nowhere it is said he altered it.

Originally posted by ILS
What exactly did the planet shaking and stars shaking/reconfiguring represent in this metaphor?

Because it is a metaphor. You just need to read the novel and see that everything happens from Sidious' point of view. And it is also night.
When it is said: "To shake the stars themselves" it tries to say that his death(the sudden release of dark side energy) spread into the planet's core and into its atmosphere blurring the view of the sky during the night; it's like watching through a lense and see that an object is blurred. You see the stars during the night in the sky, right?
When Sidious looked up at the sky, during the night, he saw the stars 'shaking'/vibrating because Plagueis' dark side energies were blurring the sight of the sky as they were released in the atmosphere. This may mean that Plagueis' death created a small nexus of dark side energy.

If Plagueis' energies also engulfed the whole planet, that remains to be seen. I don't think so, because the Jedi would have sensed it.

I am pretty sure if Plagueis' energies, truly, re-aligned the stars' position in the vicinity of the planet, someone would have noticed(e.g: Jedi).

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Then why doesn't he alter any planet he visits with his mere presence? Why didn't he alter Sojourn's climate, Coruscant's? Basically each planet he set foot on?

Unless his so-called altering climate feat was boosted by Naboo's nexus.

And if you read the novel, nowhere it is said he altered it. It's almost as if you didn't read a thing I typed...

I read what you said. And you said this was only your opinion. I wasn't talking to you. I was talking with Azronger.

wow. rude

Rude as in what? That I did not address to you?

jeez wtf

Nadd stop dissing Beni like a dog, wtf, dont act like a child, i understand heated debate and shit, but treating people like garbage... wtf

How am I rude? Lol

It's like me saying you are racist because you have Hitler as your KMC profile picture.

hitler wasn't targeting any specific race, he was killing people of specific religion roots... so yeah, that's retarded tbh

Honestly Nadd, banter and rage are okay, but this is just evil. Please stop insulting Beni like that.

And if you have him as your profile picture should that make you retarded?

For the last time. I haven't treated anyone like garbage. I keep in mind to treat every KMC member with respect. And if I hurt his feelings; I am sorry, then.

Theyre joking.

i feel attacked

Voting Plagueis. skillz

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Theyre joking.


I was also joking. Xd

Valk

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Ehh, being able to block some lightsaber strikes while tag teaming the other guy and retreating frantically doesn't really constitute competing.

Well, he also reacted when the dude was taken out. I don't really think being driven back proves you're vastly inferior. And more importantly, whatever you make of the fight, we have Lucas's word, Gillard's tier system, and multiple quotes calling Mace = or >Yoda which again all suggest Mace isn't outclassed when dealing when the Yoda, Anakin's, and Sidious's.

I don't really see why this would be the case for Plagueis who's likely a great deal below TPM Sids.

Additionally Mace is a more impressive saber combatant anad has an ability in vapaad that can neutralize hax.

Overall, Mace seems like a clear superior to me.

So once again, the Sheev brigade is reduced to using the same four ambiguous feats when Valkorion has a whole list of sh!t that can be favorably compared to Plagueis.

Him two-shotting Lana Beniko, who stalemated Senya, who was matching the Force augmented rage of Vaylin with sheer defensive skill, is probably just as good as anything Plagueis did in a duel to a pure hype character in Venamis. Tbh.

Plagueis lighting a landscape on fire, and his fotress+ tk trumps anything Valk has outside of ziost which itself isn't really more impressive than Plagueis reaching out to every being in the galaxy

Lana and Senya lifted a capital ship. That fortress shit is weaky weaksauce,

Lmfao.

Valkorion simultaneously death waved hundreds of Zakuul Knights without hurting the Alliance crew inbetween them. He was immensely less powerful in this form due to having an inferior host and existing as a spirit.

Fortress TK? Seriously? Numerous TOR characters who are fodder to Vitiate have destroyed Kaas City Blocks as children, two fodder Dark Councillors destroyed the previous Dark Citadel, Jadus held together a Harrower-class Dreadnought as it was destroyed. Vitiate himself when he was dying and had a fraction of his power destroyed the Dark Temple which was massive.

Vitiate consumed Ziost as a spirit and then became 'vastly' more powerful. So that's a far easier feat for Valkorion.

Plagueis failed, if you're going to use excuses for that, I'll use the same logic for as to why Vitiate failed to consume the galaxy via a Ritual. After which he's implied to be capable of replicating it again without a ritual as a mere spirit, before becoming much more powerful as Valkorion.

Now sit down.

Where are you getting even half of that from?

It'd be helpful if you actually referred to what you're asking about.