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Sion's statement of: "After all that has happened, still you live. You're difficult to kill." bears no evidence to support the argument they tried to kill her.

EDIT TO THE POST REGARDING SION'S STATEMENTS ON THE HARBINGER:

We have to understand that Kreia was cut off from the Force by the duo. And as Kreia mentioned: what are the Force-users if they couldn't wield the Force anymore?

Sion's second sentence doesn't refer to Traya's 'surviving' Darths Sion and Nihilus but rather her ability to stay alive even if she lost her touch with the Force(at least for a short time)
That's why Sion doesn't say: "After all that has happened, still you live?" Sion makes a sentence with the lack of the "?".
So, he was definitely alluding to Kreia's ability to stay alive even when she lost her touch with the Force.

When they exiled her, they were sure she was going to die somewhere in the corner of the galaxy due to her inability to use the Force.

What do you mean it doesn't make sense when Avellone wrote it along with almost everything else you cited in the OP? Nihilus drained her offscreen, a fact reaffirmed in KotORCG. Presumably that's what Kreia means by having her power stripped as well.

And more importantly, Sion probably acknowledges Nihilus' draining of her as the crucial factor in that encounter. His physical beating was completely unnecessary and he basically just did it out of his spite for her.



Appeals to incredulity aren't a valid method of dismissing evidence. I've already explained to you that Sion would've almost certainly told Nihilus this "after so much time" for the same reason that he spared her at Peragus: he thought she was weak, unimportant and no longer a threat. Even when he does tell Nihilus, he throws her survival in like a trivia tidbit; arguably the point of him even mentioning it was to spite Nihilus for his failure to kill her. In fact, that's the best explanation I can see for Nihilus telling Sion right afterwards that Sion needed him; to usurp Kreia's position of power. Throwing Sion's spite back at him.

Regardless, the point of him going to Nihilus was to report that they had finished destroying the Jedi Order and that their alliance was over. Kreia didn't matter in the first place, or else Sion wouldn't have spared her at Peragus. Again, that's why Sion brings her up as a sort of "Oh, by the way" thing. It was clearly wasn't his primary reason for visiting Nihilus.



Not sharing their holo frequencies and not having communication arrays aren't the same. I don't believe I said the latter. And honestly whether they could contact with holo or not doesn't affect my point. Regardless of your obsession with the idea, it's clear that Nihilus minimises contact with the outside world.



Other Sith communicating has nothing to do with Nihilus, who only reveals himself even to his own Shadow Hand when he wants to. He's obviously the more private sort.



No, I don't think Visas wanted to contact him. She wanted to get away from him.



Kreia is clearly referring to the strength of her lost hand, ie. non-existent. So she is certainly referring to Peragus, because that's where Sion took Kreia's hand. The context aligns perfectly; you decided to create context of your own which didn't fit so you could justify your delusional denial of the facts.



What current situation? That Sion and Nihilus attacked her expecting to kill her but that she survived? Yeah.

The only reason you can't see this is because you're consciously in denial of very clear evidence, lol.



No proof for that or any reason to believe it, and your quote's irrelevant. I don't know why you keep citing that when Sion doesn't say that line until well after he says the one about Kreia being difficult to kill. He says Kreia is difficult to kill almost from the onset of their meeting. The entire point of their opening exchange is to show that Sion and Kreia have a history and that he has made an attempt on her life before.



But she recovered from having her Force powers drained, which makes it clear that Sion and Nihilus' removal of her powers was incomplete. They didn't carry it out properly. That's probably why she survived.

Sion's sentence refers to them trying to kill Kreia. "After all that has happened" refers to their attempt on her life, and that's why Sion is surprised that she still lives. The idea that Sion and Nihilus just stripped Kreia of her powers and expected her to randomly die somehow might be plausible if it not for the other quote in the script where Sion clearly charges Nihilus with an attempt on Kreia's life, and unsuccessfully at that.

You decided to dismiss that quote because "it didn't make sense" so you could construct contexts of your own choosing around the more ambiguous Harbinger quote in a desperate bid to avoid the facts.

Nowhere does it say that Nihilus Force drains her off-screen. Show me a quote or a source, then. This is your own 'head canon' likewise.

You have two or three sources stating the exile(Kreia herself too), and not the opposite. You're angry because you do not understand the context. If Sion was referencing Malachor V incident on Harbinger, he would add the "?" mark at the sentence: "After all that has happened still you live?"

But he doesn't do that. If he said the sentence with "?", then you'd have proof he was surprised they didn't kill her back then. But without the "?" mark he just makes a general statement about Darth Traya. And mind you, their purpose was to remove Traya from the Force, not to kill her. Even she admits she was exiled. Removing someone's powers doesn't kill them.
She states herself she was exiled by them. Isn't that proof for you!?

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Nowhere does it say that Nihilus Force drains her off-screen. Show me a quote or a source, then. This is your own 'head canon' likewise.

No, it's not my head canon. You quoted the source yourself. Keep up.



Nihilus clearly drains Kreia; a twist of irony after she's the one who teaches him how to harness that power. And since we don't see him draining her in the game, it's obviously off-screen or without the usual orange tendrils effect.



What an absurd line of thinking. But there is no question mark.

Look at the subtitles here: https://youtu.be/NLh30eOZEYU?t=14



There's no question mark.

Why would they want to exile her? There's no rationale for it. Nihilus only wants to feed and Sion only wants to become the academy's ruler and be rid of her. And Sith are known for killing each other. In fact, the Sith Triumvirate's leadership was "elect by the lightsaber blade". It's all about killing.

She admits she was exiled, but that doesn't mean they intended to exile her or didn't intend to kill her. She was exiled as a consequence because they took over while she lost most of her powers and had no chance of standing up to them. That's not hard to reconcile.

Misread your post; you were saying there were none. But I still think it's hilarious that you think the question mark makes any difference.

Why would he need the question mark, anyway? He can clearly see Kreia alive and well in front of him. So of course he doesn't need the question mark; there's no question about the fact that Kreia's survived. It makes no difference.

Exactly. There is no question mark. If it were; he'd refer to the Malachor incident. That's why I said it has no question mark in the sentence. He isn't surprised; he makes a general statement.
Also, Kreia says to Meetra: "From an exile to another."
If both of them weren't exiled; she'd not say such thing.
Also, if you are willing to use that source against me; then Nihilus actually drained her before they went to confront her. But I am pretty sure you know this makes no sense. Why? Because Nihilus didn't even Force drain her there; he just wants to remove Kreia from the Force, then Sion joins in and they both remove her from the Force. The Force drain technique, mentioned in the source, Kreia helped Nihilus to develop has nothing to do with the word 'saps'.
Saps=destroy
That's why it says: "(...)saps her powers."/"(...)drain her Force powers."

It is a reference to Sever Force.

Drain doesn't refer here to them trying to drain her life, but her powers. And you can't drain Force powers/abilities. Here drain has the meaning of 'remove'.

1. I just discussed that above. He's surprised that she survived but he's not shocked like an anime character; he's been looking at Kreia in the flesh for a good minute or so, lol. He's stating the obvious. Stop reaching.

2. The source doesn't say Nihilus drained her before the confrontation?

It's not Sever Force. Nihilus likes to feed. When he gets a victim, he feeds on it, he doesn't cut them off from the Force. He's got no reason to do that to Kreia. And he was draining her life as well; that's how he was trying to kill her. The quote I provided explicitly states that Nihilus turned his life-draining gifts on Traya herself. It's supposed to be ironic.

The power happens to just drain her connection to the Force as well as her life. And yes, you can drain people of the Force; that's what the quote means when it says her powers are drained. That's what Traya did to the Council Members in the LS version and the Exile in the DS version. Nihilus was just using it on her. You're so in denial that this is funny. Is it because we've found an instance where Nihilus' Drain is fallible? lol

If you're insistent on using a dictionary, at least read a little harder:



Case solved.

And yet the drain happens before they confront her per the source. So, nothing is done off-screen. Argument invalid.

Also, another synonym for 'drain' is 'deprive'.

deprive/dɪˈprʌɪv/
verb
prevent (a person or place) from having or using something.

So, no, you can't drain someone's Force abilities, only their vital force or Force energy. You fail to realize that the drain and sap have nothing to do with the word 'absorption' in this context. If such event were to occur via 'Force' drain; one'd either be dead or become a Wound in the Force.
Kreia says she was 'stripped' of her power by them: She means she was removed from the Force via a dark version of Sever Force, but you keep taking both of these words as 'literal'.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
And yet the drain happens before they confront her per the source. So, nothing is done off-screen. Argument invalid.

Where does it say they drain before they confront her?



There's nothing wrong with the immediately implicit definition such that you need to find others.

Instead of flexing your ability to hunt down dictionary definitions, how about masking your very evident agenda here?



Draining someone's Force energy certainly does drain someone of their Force abilities. That second use of "drain" in my preceding sentence could even accommodate your definitions and work.



Kreia also knows how to use Drain, which means she's experienced it in a way according to herself. She's not a Wound. Nor are the Assassins.

I believe you were the one toying with the idea of Kreia being a Wound anyway.



When has a dark side version of Sever Force even been used? You sever someone's connection to the Force with Drain; that's the closest that we get to severing someone from the Force as a dark sider in KotOR II. KotOR II is a game about Drain, and Nihilus is a character about Drain. It makes no sense that on this one occasion he defaults to another power, unless it is of course just to satisfy your preconceived denial of the idea that Nihilus tried using Drain on Kreia and didn't succeed in killing her.

Really, I've already constructed an entirely coherent connection between all the points of dispute without needing to search for all these alternate definitions, perform intellectual gymnastics, and reach for all sorts of crazy conclusions. You insist on not accepting my version of events; fair enough, construct an alternate one with the pivotal facts accounted for. Except you've only been reaching, and for all your reaching, we've all been watching an ever-widening gap between yourself and the facts. More than that, with each post you respond to fewer and fewer of my points. Am I to take it that you're slowly giving up ground?

Your fancy flipping around the definitions and grammar hasn't actually managed to reconcile any of the clearly expressed facts, which are that:

1. Sion has charged Nihilus with trying to kill Kreia.
2. Sion is surprised that Kreia is alive after a previous attempt on her life.
3. The KotORCG mentions Nihilus draining Kreia.
4. Neither Sion nor Nihilus have an invested interest in keeping Kreia alive, with Nihilus explicitly known for his voracious appetite of Force users and the Sith being known to usurp power through killing (with the Sith Triumvirate factually being no exception). On no other occasion have they, particularly Nihilus, used Sever Force.

This can all be reconciled if you drop the idea that Nihilus' Drain is an infallible instakill of a technique, a notion which isn't even directly supported and is in fact contradicted in the game itself (and by the one who taught Nihilus how to do this properly), yet instead of conceding that you run on all sorts of tangents about question marks, alternate definitions of drain, communication arrays and the war campaigns of other Sith Lords. You frequently accuse me of lawyering, yet here is the textbook ballet dancing around points, backed by ambiguity exploitation and definition hunting that would make any intellectually dishonest lawyer proud.

Regardless, I've answered all of your queries seriously, addressed all of your tangents. Now I'm going to wait for you to prosecute a case built around those four facts, instead of trying to dismiss and distort what you don't like to preserve Nihilus' drain record, the perfection of which is entirely conceived by fans rather than being directly stated in the mythos anyway.

So when Meetra severed her connection to the Force; she did it with Force drain? : /

And it wasn't Sion's nor Nihilus' plan alone to 'kill' her. They planned it together. Thus, the cut-content line makes no sense. And if Force drained occured, it(per that source) happened before Sion pumelled her and Nihilus Force-pushed her. Thus, the argument remains invalid(as Force drain tried on her off-scene)

If Traya was drained and survived; she became a wound: But she isn't a wound, AFAIK. Also dark version of Sever Force exists. Tenebrae used it on his father to strip him off his power.

I wasn't saying that you can only sever someone's connection to the Force via Drain, in case you think that. Merely that using Drain still does the job (ie. your dispute is resolved).



They conspired together, but that doesn't place a restriction on Sion attributing the "killing" or the bulk of the killing to Nihilus. You are trying to create complications where there are none.

The draining was probably continuous from Nihilus ever since his Push, as he just stands there. Kreia doesn't appear to have lost her powers before that; they illustrate that after she gets pushed when she has difficulty with moving her lightsaber hilt.



That's up for interpretation. It's just Tenebrae "stripping him of the Force" again.

Anyway, the more relevant discussion is around Traya being a Wound: who said she has to be just because she survived Drain? Nihilus uses the same Drain as the Assassins, just on a higher level. Do the Assassins turn everyone they fight into Wounds? Hell, Visas survived Katarr and there's no evidence she was a Wound either. Not sure where you're getting the idea from. Experiencing it only gives you the ability to use it.

Just why is it so hard to accept that Nihilus can use Drain and not definitely kill someone? Especially someone he conspired with Sion to overthrow, suggesting it's not some some bacterium but rather somebody of comparable or even greater power; somebody who can pose a threat, perhaps? Remember that this is Nihilus before he drains Katarr or the other planets. It's obvious that Nihilus and Sion together, perhaps even Nihilus alone (I believe Avellone thinks this) outclassed Kreia. The point is they didn't kill her due to oversight/haste. Not that they could have kept attacking and still failed to kill her, lol. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult thing for you to accept.

Visas didn't survive Nihilus' attack. She was spared by the Dark Lord. Otherwise why would he bring her on his Ravager if he never meant her survival?
And you know that 'strip' means emptied.
That source is dumb, tbh. You say they 'Force-drained her; but we never see them draining her in the cut-scene either. That's why sap and drain doesn't refer to absorption in that source: You can't sap/steal Force abilities from anyone; it's like saying that Nihilus eats Sidious' Telekinesis or mind-trick power. Drain and sap had the meaning of 'remove' here. That's why Kreia said she was stripped off her power. She didn't say she was consumed/drained of her power.

Exactly. This guy keeps using that line on Harbinger to prove me I am wrong. Even if it makes no sense what Sion says on the Ravager. Sion said she was difficult to kill because it was a general statement about her.

Originally posted by AncientPower
They both probably thought she was as good as dead without her power. Tbh.

@Razer, how is the Nihilus drain off-panel? We see it in the flashback.

Actually we don't see any Drain. Nihilus just severed her connections with Sion.

Nah, either they didn't animate the effects with what we saw on-screen or the source is inaccurate.

Why wouldn't they animate it, though?
Also, drain and sap in the context have the meaning of 'remove', not of consumption.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


the source is inaccurate.

I'll check the game files when I get home to see what happened.

Even you stated on your Big N Respect Thread that he used Sever Force on Kreia.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'll check the game files when I get home to see what happened.
The script doesn't even have Nihilus as apart of the scene.

"Light has been shed today."

Not really. The script is just horribly vague about it and has Sion continuing to hit Kreia once he throws her on the ground. It doesn't even mention the scene where Kreia can't lift her saber hilt. Obviously Avellone changed/clarified it somewhere along the line after that, and this isn't a case where you can argue that author intent is better conveyed through the script and that the final product was the result of time or game engine constraints. They evidently decided to give Nihilus a more prominent role, with the "hunger for power" line being an obvious reference to him, and future sources corroborate with that idea by mentioning that Nihilus and Sion both conspired to take her down.

Moreover, the script still has Sion's line about Nihilus intending to kill her but not actually doing so. So there's no issue here. Not only that, but in this entire thread nobody has raised a sufficient counter about either that line or an explanation for why Nihilus wouldn't want to drain/kill her.

Originally posted by AncientPower
@Razer, how is the Nihilus drain off-panel? We see it in the flashback.

We see the effects of it only.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Visas didn't survive Nihilus' attack. She was spared by the Dark Lord. Otherwise why would he bring her on his Ravager if he never meant her survival?

I ask you again to show me proof that Nihilus spared her from the initial Drain attack, rather than attacking the entire planet, scouring the wastes and then stumbling across a chance survival that he spared instead of finishing off?

Otherwise you're proposing an exceptional degree of Force Mastery on Nihilus' part (the ability to single out one among millions and keep them safe from a planet-wide attack) which just goes against what we know about Nihilus, which is that his control over his powers is limited at best.



It's dumb because you don't like it? lol

I've already explained to you that if you drain someone's Force connection, you also drain or "remove" someone's Force abilities. So you're trying to create a point of conflict where there's none.

As we can see, you continue to avoid most of my points and you still haven't managed to even respond to Sion explicitly charging Nihilus with the act, nor given me a reason as to why it would be Sever Force. I accept your concession.

Once again, there is no rationale for why Sion or Nihilus would want to spare her, and why Nihilus would opt to use some harmless Sever Force power instead of Drain. Both of them despised her, both of them were surprised and contemptuous/angry upon learning that she survived, and both of them had no need of her. Drain also happens to be Nihilus' shtick, and as KotORCG points out, the circle is ironically complete when Nihilus drains his own master. You don't get that when he decides to suddenly use some other power.

This "Sever Force" approach requires you to ignore sources because you don't like them, ignore that the Nihilus character is all about Drain, ignore that Nihilus tried to kill her, which Sever Force doesn't do, and ignore the intended poetic irony of this scene which is only achieved when Drain is used. There's no reason to believe that.

Actually Kreia said that Nihilus brought the Killer Force to radicale heights or at its peak. That means he mastered it to perfection; his endless hunger has nothing to do with the mastery of the technique.

It is Sever Force because you don't see drain on-screen.

Keep in mind both Sion and Nihilus only continue to live because of the Force. Sion especially "loves" (the dark side of) the Force and feels that being connected to it is an absolute essential thing. In his mind, it's more cruel to strip Kreia's Force connections and allow her to live on without it. They probably figured from that point on, she's no threat at all. Typical Sith overconfidence at its best.

And their intention was not to kill her, but to exile her: Why?

Well, we both agree that she couldn't use the Force anymore after she had her connections temporary stripped away. And she isn't a Wound in the Force either(so, she couldn't mask her presence)
Kreia couldn't just walk free throughout the Trayus Academy without being noticed by anyone. If their intention was to kill her: then, they'd have killed her back then if they saw her trying to escape Malachor V.
There is no way she could have left the planet if their intention was to end Traya's life.

So an appeal to incredulity... doesn't answer any of my points. You can't decide sources are wrong just because you don't like the facts. And no, there's nothing wrong with them killing her right in the Core if they wanted to. There's no way to leave the planet if they intended to kill her? Wrong. She left the planet, yet Sion makes it clear that they intended to kill her.

And no, Kreia said Nihilus was approaching the height of 's power. She suggests that the Ancient Sith were probably still better in that regard.

Kreia also said the Ancient Sith make the current age of duelists look like toddlers.

Unfortunately thats not true and much of what Avellone was trying to establish about the Ancient Sith has been undone.

Indeed. Doesn't change the point that Kreia didn't say what Nadd claimed she did about Nihilus. She pretty clearly suggests that there's limits to his Drain as well.

Kreia only knew Nihilus' power pre-Katarr. So the statement isn't a contradiction.

And Kreia couldn't leave the planet if they intended to kill her. She'd have no means to escape. Only the exile is the viable option. Apparently you don't see the nonsense in them trying to kill her on Malachor V. You just keep repeating what Sion said to Nihilus on Ravager, though Nihilus wasn't the one who finished Kreia: It was Sion. There's no logical reason to fault Nihilus when Sion gave Kreia the final strike.

It is a contradiction because you were quoting Kreia, lol. So the limits of her knowledge doesn't matter. You were going off her quotes, I just corrected you on what she really said. Also, Kreia serves as the mouth of God at various points in the game, presumably including her DS monologue where she refers to Nihilus in the current. Though by all means she's certainly exaggerated his power in the past, so she could definitely be fallible. Look no further than her claiming that even a stray thought can lure him - no such thing happens, of course.

Sion's physical hits were no serious contribution. I've already told you that it's blatantly clear that Nihilus did the heavy work in negating Kreia's powers by draining them. Sion himself seems to recognise that and therefore attributes the "killing" to Nihilus. We also don't know if the draining persisted or not after Sion threw Kreia on the ground as we know she obviously hadn't died by then. At some point they mistakenly thought that she was dead and left. She escaped after that.

Not sure why you're lecturing me on logic given you've repeatedly shown in this thread that you can't grasp simple logic. You've spent most of this thread trying to overturn facts based on gut feelings and whether or not you like them. That's not how it works.

Freedumb Nadd is quite the fanboy.

Why you say Nihilus kills her off-scene? Simple: To suit your own argument based on a cut-content character line and a moronic source that also states the 'drain' happens on-screen. And we still see Kreia breathing and being alive pretty much.

Sion deals with her the last. Checked. Cut content is not about Nihilus killing her on Malachor V. Checked.

What Sion wants to say through "Difficult to kill." and "After all that's happened still you live." is that Kreia managed to survive without the touch of the Force. He was impressed of her ability to survive without it. When they exiled her: Sion was sure she'd not last long and die or take her life. These two lines emphasise her overall character. Kreia also says to Atton Rand that Jedi would be defenseless without the Force.
She also identifies as an exile to Meetra Surik because both were severed from the Force and were exiled from their respective orders.

If the creators ever intended Nihilus to use any Force power on Kreia to finish her off after Sion pummels her; they'd have shown it to us. They'd have shown it in the restored-cut-content if it was the case, for god's sake. That's all. You fail to see the context of the video-game.
A full stop and a question mark change the context of a sentence(referencing Harbinger Sion's 'still you live.' Line)

Full stops indicate the end of sentences that are not questions or exclamations

Kill her off-screen? No, I said he drained her off-screen because that's what the facts say. Your reason for not taking the facts is because you can't accept the idea that Nihilus' Drain might not be an instakill, lmfao.

Checked? How about checking me out of this. I'm not interested in contending with question marks or incredulity. Come try again when you have actual facts to contribute to the discussion with.

You just said Nihilus finished her off-screen. If that were the case; we'd be seeing it in the cut-content or written in the script at least. It's you who thinks the drain happens off-screen: When in fact it happens on-screen per that moronic source. And do you realize that the Trayus Academy is full of Sith? She wouldn't be in any position to leave. She'd be slain by those douchebags the moment she tried her little attempt to escape.

And you tell me to use facts and logic? Show me that the script mentions Nihilus Force draining Kreia off-screen. If this isn't mentioned; then this is your personal assumption based on a cut-content character line that refers, most likely, at a current situation during the video-game.

If the cut-content didn't reveal the off-screen Force drain or any other power; then that means they never tried to kill her there on Malachor V.
Not even sources mention that they wanted to kill her: only that they stripped her off her power and exiled her.

*facepalm* What cut content? It's clearly by author's choice that we don't see Nihilus cutting her from the Force. We still see the effects of it with Kreia not being able to lift her saber and her own commentary that she was stripped from the Force. Add to that Nihilus' modus operandi of using Drain and the KotORCG confirming it, and you get my stance on the matter.

And no, if she can elude Nihilus and Sion she can obviously elude their underlings. lol

Yes, the Force drain happens on-screen. That moronic source confirms it. Though I wonder why it wasn't animated.
That's it. They(Nihilus and Sion) drained her power and they exiled her. Nothing counters my post. That moronic source states the same. They drain her powers and exile her.

Don't *facepalm*.

That's what I meant. The animation is off-screen (I meant seeing Nihilus actually doing it).

The source is only moronic because you don't like it.

Yeah? 'Cause you say so? And actually the whole Sever actually does happen on-screen when he TK's her against the wall. But for odd reasons it isn't colorized.



Yes, she is beaten and stripped off her power. That's all. That's what the source says too.



I don't get your stance. Nihilus has Mastery over that technique. He can choose how much he drains someone. He can eat their connections and let them live without the Force. That's how even his zombie crew lives(though they are still passively drained): Because he hasn't consumed their Force&life connections entirely.

This doesn't debunk the fact they exiled her.



Except for the fact that she doesn't have the Force anymore. And the Sith are ruled by Darths Nihilus and Sion. Who is the strongest rules. And they'd accept their command, not hers.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's what I meant. The animation is off-screen (I meant seeing Nihilus actually doing it).

The source is only moronic because you don't like it.

I meant animation as in colorized on the scene. No, the source is moronic because Nihilus' drain cannot be seen when he strips Kreia off her Force connections on-screen when he TK's her against the wall. Due to the fact that what he does to Kreia on-screen isn't represented as Force drain (like it's usually done in the game) I assumed it was a dark variant of Sever Force.

No, because we see the effects right after. Unlike you, I don't try to make up and distort facts to support an agenda.



"For odd reasons" and yet you were challenging me on the fact that I mentioned the drain not being animated? lol

You've got a pitifully weak grasp of logic. Doesn't seem like you can even understand the concept of double standards.



What Nihilus' crew suffers from, as you correctly observed, is Nihilus' passive Drain. His aura. That's obviously not what happened with Kreia. So no, there's no "mastery" involved with that.



Sure they exiled her; unintentionally. Nowhere does it say they intended to exile her as opposed to intending to kill her. They wanted to kill her but only succeeded in stripping her of her power so she fled.



That depends. The Force was ripped from her, but by her admission not entirely. That is, after all, how she regains her Force powers over time.

Point me to where I said she'd command them. I said she'd elude them. Bring out the dictionary again and tell me what that means.

No. What you said is that the Force drain is off-screen, what I said is that the Force drain was on-screen but not portrayed as orange lightning bolts.

Yes, because a lack of animation more or less counts as off-screen. On-screen would be actually seeing it.

Anyway, we're not making any headway here and I'm getting tired of debating the same points over and over.

That's a point too. But Nihilus can Force drain someone and not consume them entirely if he wishes too. That's what you don't get apparently. You assume that somehow his ability, once unleashed, cannot be controlled(range-wise or potency-wise) and directly tries to destroy someone's Force connections even if the practitioner does not want to apply its full power. Nihilus' drain is just like any other Force power. Luke can manipulate Yuuzhan Vong holes, but he can also use that power on a smaller scale with smaller effects.



Even if an objective source states that they merely exiled her, not trying to kill her?

No, she fleeing is what you assume to support your argument. She couldn't escape if that was the case.



Dude, you even played the game?
She was already rendered like a non-Force sensitive by them. So, no, she wouldn't be able to use the Force. The reason Kreia recovers her power is due to her Force bond she has with the Jedi Exile.

What? Nihilus drains Kreia on-screen when he TK's her against the wall. How is that taking place off-screen?

1. I assume that when Nihilus attacks the entire planet, he can't pick and choose who he wants to keep alive, no. He needed help just being able to harness Drain in the first place.

2. Objective sources state the outcome was exile, not the intent. Sion makes it clear that the intent was to kill. Once again, your rebuttal to that is "I don't like it, so I'll try and paint it as implausible and idiotic".

3. Not true. She had powers before their Bond ever manifested. And according to TCSWE, she sensed the Exile from across the galaxy in order to find her in the first place. She just regained her powers faster through her Bond with the Exile. And how does a Bond initiate between two non-Force sensitives?



No, that's just TK. If there's no Drain animation, then once again the Drain is off-screen, even if you believe it was used simultaneously (nothing says it is; he could've started draining once he had her against the wall and he probably did). Good to see that you agree it's Drain instead of Sever Force though.

Anyway, as I said before this is tiring and not productive in the slightest. I'm offering the chance to agree to disagree as I'm not going to be persuaded by your pestering and I'm sure I'm not going to succeed in persuading you either.

Nihilus spared Visas.

Nobody disputes that.

You disagree with that. You said she survived not that Nihilus spared her.

No, I still think Nihilus spared her. After finding her unconscious body, he spared her instead of finishing her off. I just don't think he spared her from the onset, as evidence hasn't come my way to suggest that he did.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I assume that when Nihilus attacks the entire planet, he can't pick and choose who he wants to keep alive, no. He needed help just being able to harness Drain in the first place.


Umm, yeah, he can. That's how he spared one Miraluka from Katarr's fate. And that's how he never kills his zombie crew instantly. If what you say is true: when Nihilus unleashed his Force drain on Kreia he would have drained all the Trayus Academy or at least its Core. The fact that he is able to use it on one person shows that Nihilus has control over his Force drain power(length-wise and potency-wise). That's why even on his Ravager, when he unleashes his drain, he only unleashes it on the Jedi Exile, not the entire party. Is that clear enough to you?




Don't you think the source or any other source would have stated if their intention was to kill her? All the sources state that they united against her and sent her in exile.

As I said, bring proof from the script that Nihilus tried anything on Kreia after they drained her. If there is not; then means they never intended to kill her.

And as I said before: those two statements of Sion on Harbinger about Kreia refer to her ability to survive even when (most of) the Force has been emptied within her.

He even makes a reference, to her inability to use properly the Force, by saying:
"I sense you, my Master. Faint, weak."
"After all that has happened, still you live. You are difficult to kill."

But you keep thinking that this has something to do with what happened on Malachor V. When it clearly does not.




Fair enough, then. Even so, the implications of that source are that her 'power' began to slowly manifest after she has been exiled by the duo.

Also, The Exile is a Wound in the Force, not a non-Force sensitive. And in the game, if it ever happened to you, your party can achieve the ability of harnessing the Force. Also when something happens to Kreia, you also feel it. And the reverse happens too. So it is logical that when the Exile strengthened her Force connection by drawing the energy of dead, Kreia also increased/turned on her own. But fair enough: a source is a source.



Just because there is no animation that does not exclude the fact that he used Force drain on her. I agree because I thought it was a dark variant of Sever Force due to the lack of colorization. But given Nihilus' Force mastery with that ability it isn't unbelievable to me now.

The source clearly says that they turn against her: Nihilus drains her first, then Sion joins and does the same: then they exile her. There is no contradiction and there is no off-screen Force drain. Just because it has no artistic depiction in the cut-scene doesn't give you the 'right' to say that it happens off-screen. It was Force drain, but for some odd reasons it was not depicted. Maybe because the concept during the game was not created yet or it was a difficult task to depict it. on-screen.

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, I still think Nihilus spared her. After finding her unconscious body, he spared her instead of finishing her off. I just don't think he spared her from the onset, as evidence hasn't come my way to suggest that he did.

You're wrong, obviously, but I'm curious as to how you think she survived if not by him sparing her. The planet was utterly cleansed of life except for her. Is she just that kawaii desu?

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're wrong, obviously, but I'm curious as to how you think she survived if not by him sparing her. The planet was utterly cleansed of life except for her. Is she just that kawaii desu?

Nova cannot accept the fact that Nihilus has control over his Force drain and he can choose who dies when he drains them or he can just render them almost with no Force connections. The notion that Nihilus cannot control the range and the potency of it is just nonsense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're wrong, obviously, but I'm curious as to how you think she survived if not by him sparing her. The planet was utterly cleansed of life except for her. Is she just that kawaii desu?

I think a lapse in Nihilus' draining powers is a more realistic explanation for a random occurrence of survival than Nihilus picking her from afar out of a lottery of millions to be "the lucky one", yeah. He had no idea who any of the people were on the planet and he didn't care. Visas didn't know him, either. She didn't sense him until he attacked.

It makes more sense to me that he walks the surface of Katarr to see first-hand what he could do to a planet for the first time, and upon noticing Visas as a survivor, saw potential in her and took her in as a Shadow Hand (and to maker her "see", blah blah) rather than feeding on her as he was already sated by gorging on the entire planet. That makes more sense than him targeting a random out of millions to keep safe from his Drain, if he can even do that (which I doubt).

Originally posted by SunRazer
I think a lapse in Nihilus' draining powers is a more realistic explanation for a random occurrence of survival than Nihilus picking her from afar out of a lottery of millions to be "the lucky one", yeah. He had no idea who any of the people were on the planet and he didn't care. Visas didn't know him, either. She didn't sense him until he attacked.

It makes more sense to me that he walks the surface of Katarr to see first-hand what he could do to a planet for the first time, and upon noticing Visas as a survivor, saw potential in her and took her in as a Shadow Hand (and to maker her "see", blah blah) rather than feeding on her as he was already sated by gorging on the entire planet. That makes more sense than him targeting a random out of millions to keep safe from his Drain, if he can even do that (which I doubt).

What kind of lapse? He got every other living thing on the planet, the attack was all-encompassing. And I don't understand why the idea of him picking a random person is so unlikely to you. Is there something suggesting he wouldn't do that?

Nihilus had reason to spare Visas. As she states in dialogue she can "see" things that he cannot. Miraluka can naturally sense things from across the galaxy and see the energy of stars, the growth of life etc. The idea that he just happened to fail to kill her and wander over to her when walking around is nonsensical. Why do you think that makes more sense than him wanting an apprentice that can see what he can't, who he could twist in order to validate his nihilistic worldview? Nothing in the game suggests a flaw in the technique that would allow Visas to survive. If there was Kreia would make a bigger deal out of her. Instead Kreia explicitly says Visas was spared by his attack, suggesting it was the last spark of feeling in him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What kind of lapse? He got every other living thing on the planet, the attack was all-encompassing. And I don't understand why the idea of him picking a random person is so unlikely to you. Is there something suggesting he wouldn't do that?

Nihilus had reason to spare Visas. As she states in dialogue she can "see" things that he cannot. Miraluka can naturally sense things from across the galaxy and see the energy of stars, the growth of life etc. The idea that he just happened to fail to kill her and wander over to her when walking around is nonsensical. Why do you think that makes more sense than him wanting an apprentice that can see what he can't, who he could twist in order to validate his nihilistic worldview? Nothing in the game suggests a flaw in the technique that would allow Visas to survive. If there was Kreia would make a bigger deal out of her. Instead Kreia explicitly says Visas was spared by his attack, suggesting it was the last spark of feeling in him.

A lapse of imperfection that meant one of the many millions on the planet didn't actually die, perhaps?

It's unlikely because that's an unprecedented or nearly unprecedented level of mastery and precision which goes against the Nihilus character who isn't exactly a paragon of Force mastery to begin with.

As for "having reason to spare Visas", he didn't know any of that from above the planet, when she was merely one among millions.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
I conceded to you that Nihilus could still drain those around him, albeit very slowly. It's still his Force drain; but it is passively used.
As I said before: Nihilus demonstrated his proeficiency with Force drain when he drained Kreia's Force connections and didn't kill her or when he attacked Katarr and saved one Miraluka from the 'attack' to be his apprentice. You know it's not like he is blasting planets with a huge ball of energy that shrouds the entire planet. Force drain is depicted as orange/yellow lightning bolts. and those lightning bolts can touch whatever the practitioner wants them to touch. That's why he could spare Visas Marr.

That means when Nihilus is ready to harvest a world: orange lightning bolts come out of his ship and 'attack' the planet.

And for the record, I understand your point. It's just that it is flawed. You cling on two lines that Sion said and fail to see the bigger picture despite multiple sources stated that they stripped her off her power and cast her aside.

The bigger picture where you've still not been able to show me that they intended to exile her, only that it was an outcome. There's a difference. Actus reus vs mens rea. As it stands, Sion's assertion that they tried to kill her is unchallenged.

It's funny, too, because early on you showed that you had no idea what the context of Sion's quotes were anyway and after I tried explaining them to you, you decided to completely make up things to suit your agenda while. Like, come on.

Anyway, as I said, I'm getting tired of going in circles with you. Agree to disagree. I'll probably bow out from here.

Even Kreia says Nihilus has mastered Force drain technique. You confuse his hunger for Force/life energy with his mastery over the technique.

Nowhere does it say that he tried to kill her. If I told you that you are a person difficult to kill; does that mean I want to kill you? No, I just emphasise the fact that you are capable of surviving in the hardest conditions.
You cannot accept the fact that what Sion said on Harbinger was a reference to how to stay alive without the Force: a major or the most important theme of this video-game. He thought she'd die once she has lost her touch with the Force.

You do realize that Nihilus used the Force to see the planet's inhabitants? That's how he knew where to find Visas Marr in the first place.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Even Kreia says Nihilus has mastered Force drain technique. You confuse his hunger for Force/life energy with his mastery over the technique.

Mastery and perfection are not the same. Imperfections in his mastery are not impossible. There are also different levels of mastery. According to Kreia, Nihilus has not quite reached the highest level. If you want to invalidate her as a source, we return to a state of utter ambiguity, so the notion that his mastery is perfect remains unsupported.



The Harbinger quote is ambiguous enough to allow for alternate interpretations, but not once the quote with Nihilus is considered, it's abundantly clear that Nihilus and Sion tried to kill her on Malachor V. As it stands, you continue to rely on incredulity and shifting narratives, as well as ignoring critical talking points on why Nihilus wouldn't bother restraining himself once it was time for Kreia to go.



Fact? Don't make me laugh. You didn't know what the context of the Sion's comment to Nihilus was at first, asked me, then created this "fact" by adjusting your interpretation of Sion's Harbinger quote and then chastised me for not agreeing. You've changed your narrative on this three times already.



Of course he can see them. There's still no reason for distinguishing Visas from millions of other living Miraluka from afar. How he found Visas later was because she was the sole living entity on an otherwise dead world; that's not hard to find with his Force senses. Completely different contexts.

You'll find if you string together my narrative, there's no actual contradiction with any of the established facts on the case. You just disagree with my version of events because it concludes that Nihilus' drain isn't a perfect instakill, a preconceived notion you've subscribed to out of bias and emotive hype rather than actual fact (nowhere is it stated, while Kreia states the opposite).

Anyway, is there a reason you're not ignoring everything I say about agreeing to disagreeing? We both know these discussions aren't productive. If you're going to offer me more replies without giving me a good justification for continuing, I won't respond and you can take that how you will.

Then why did he get his own ironed ass on Katarr in the first place?

As about Visas Marr. You know that Force-users do possess the ability to "see" people using the Force. Maybe he didn't choose Visas due to a specific reason. But it just happened that he picked her randomly from all of them. The lottery ticket.



It isn't that Nihilus' drain isn't instakill. It is that he mastered to perfection the technique and has control over its potency and range. That's how Kreia 'survived', that's how Visas survived.



And yet in that scene(when they drain her) that, you say, Sion refers to it on the Ravager in the cut content, it doesn't make sense because Sion is the one who delivers the fatal blow to Kreia, not Nihilus.
So it makes no sense.

As about your comment regarding his mastery over Force drain: Kreia explicitly stated that it was about Nihilus' power that-would-be soon rivaling the ancient Sith's; it didn't have anything to do with his Force mastery of Force drain.

Nihilus has shown that he can one-shot a world, he can one-shot only a person with Force drain if he wants to. Using your logic: When he attacks with Force drain(then he would be unleashing it all over the place even if he would want not to do it)
We can see that Nihilus has the control to direct his Force drain(especially when he tries his drain on Meetra but doesn't do the same to Visas and Canderous)