Where do you rank these characters in terms of combat speed?

Azronger

Originally posted by Sirion_Of_Doom
Malgus was slower than Aryn Leneer, but I think you would agree that he was more powerful than her. TPM Kenobi was also faster than Qui-Gon, and again, I don't think you'd disagree that Qui-Gon was more powerful than Kenobi at that point.

Food for thought.

Oh? Apparently you drank too much crocodile semen again and your feeble brain forgot the beatdown I gave to you here about how TPM Obi-Wan is not faster than Qui-Gon without any sort of rage amplification.

TheNuisanceBird

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
- RotS Anakin
- Valkorion
- Yoda
- Plagueis
- SF Malak
- Ulic
- DoE Bane
- Kit Fisto
- Coleman Trebor

Not sure where to put Grievous.

Sirion_Of_Doom

Originally posted by Azronger
Oh? Apparently you drank too much crocodile semen again and your feeble brain forgot the beatdown I gave to you
+10 for creativity

Originally posted by Azronger
about how TPM Obi-Wan is not faster than Qui-Gon without any sort of rage amplification.

This is the exact quote:

Nowhere does the text state that Obi-Wan is slower than Qui-Gon without his rage amp, nor does it suggest that his rage amp is instrumental to him being faster than Qui-Gon. To my point, the way that the text ''compares'' him to Qui-Gon - his masters experience against his own speed, indicates that these are simply advantages that they are used to having over each other. Then rage!Kenobi's superior performance against Maul, compared to Qui-Gon, is justified by his advantage (speed) being more important compared to Qui-Gon's advantage (experience).

I guess, to address that part of your post;

That said, Leneer was still faster than Malgus in Deceived, so your original point is moot regardless.

Azronger

Respond to me in the actual thread, not here.

Sirion_Of_Doom

Originally posted by Azronger
Respond to me in the actual thread, not here.
Too late. But feel free to not respond, you're not obliged to. I'm not particularly interested in continuing that topic.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by Sirion_Of_Doom
Malgus was slower than Aryn Leneer, but I think you would agree that he was more powerful than her. TPM Kenobi was also faster than Qui-Gon, and again, I don't think you'd disagree that Qui-Gon was more powerful than Kenobi at that point.

Food for thought.
Jinn's a specific, inconsistent issue where sources associate his aging with a loss of speed, despite with what we know of Dooku and Sidious.

I imagine quotes exist stating Jinn moves faster than Obi-Wan, anyway.

I'm interested in the Malgus example, though. It may be because he prioritizes excess energy to strength, being a Sith Warrior. Care to elaborate?

The Ellimist

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It may be because he prioritizes excess energy to strength, being a Sith Warrior.

Vitiate prioritizes things differently too, as I'm sure you know

DarthAnt66

Sure, but he should instantly be able to prioritize to speed if need-be.

That's how Force Speed (shown in TPM) presumably works. A Jedi devotes all power to speed for a short burst.

Using Force Speed in battle is likely more harmful than helpful, but devoting enough energy to, say, dodge Maul is within his capabilities.

Although it should be noted Revan has employed Force Speed in combat, so Vitiate might too as well, lol.

Nephthys

At the time Malgus wasn't actually more powerful than her tbh. At least not significantly.

Sirion_Of_Doom

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Jinn's a specific, inconsistent issue where sources
Quote(s)?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
associate his aging with a loss of speed, despite with what we know of Dooku and Sidious.
Age might not have an impact on only Force speed, but also general Force connectivity and/or combat effeciency. ANH Kenobi and Yoda are examples of age having a negative impact, whereas Dooku and Sidious, as you mentioned, are opposite. It might only be negative in the case of Jedi, maybe it's dependent on the individual or it might be another wholly inconsistent issue in the mythos. My guess is option three, but regardless, why would Force speed be entirely dependent on ''combat power'' (which is a far too broad and vague term in itself), as opposed to just about every other Force technique, where mastery of said technique is the reason for ones skill with it?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I imagine quotes exist stating Jinn moves faster than Obi-Wan, anyway.
I wouldn't doubt it. There's too many inconsistencies across the different continuities and authors to rely on one single quote/source anyway, but I don't see any reason as to why the quickness of a Force user is determined by their Force power.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm interested in the Malgus example, though. It may be because he prioritizes excess energy to strength, being a Sith Warrior. Care to elaborate?

Here the text also strongly hints at speed being her advantage, whereas his was strength:

Your argument that he would be slower because he prioritized strength isn't very convincing. She was simply quicker than him.

So what? Beyond proving that speed is directly connected to ones overall Force power level, prove that the power gap between two Force adepts is relevant to whether or not their speed is directly connected to their power levels.

DarthAnt66

If Malgus' edge is strength and Leneer's edge is speed, then it seems clear they prioritize those abilities (assuming they are similar in power when the comparisons are made as Neph said).

The connection between power and speed is just as strong as power and strength, after all.

Sirion_Of_Doom

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If Malgus' edge is strength and Leneer's edge is speed, then it seems clear they prioritize those abilities (assuming they are similar in power when the comparisons are made as Neph said).

Confirmation bias, bro. There's nothing in the text hinting at them prioritizing different abilities. What the text DOES hint is that she was faster but he was stronger (''she answered his strength with his speed'', not why that is the case.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The connection between power and speed is just as strong as power and strength, after all.
You haven't proved (in this thread) that power and speed are correlated, and now you're also bringing up strength in the same manner? ...

DarthAnt66

I'm drawing a logical conclusion based on what we know.

Factually, comparably powerful Force users will have comparably powerful amounts of Force energy flowing into them. Therefore, in the case of Malgus and Leener, we can conclude Malgus puts more energy into augmenting strength whereas Leener augmenting speed. The text doesn't need to state anything besides stating they are comparably powerful with each having an edge in different areas. The conclusion is pretty straight-forward.

I'm asking for an example where we have something that directly contradicts (i.e. burden of proof is on you) this line of thinking - and hopefully multiple examples so it's not just one inconsistency. In this instance, I can reasonably insert this fight into my perception of how augmentation works and it fits perfectly fine, hence my point.

Nephthys

Malgus is pretty obviously a Djem So/Shien practitioner while Leneer is most likely an Ataru one. Prioritisation of certain skills is obviously a factor in lightsaber combat based upon your combat style.

The Ellimist

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sure, but he should instantly be able to prioritize to speed if need-be.

That's how Force Speed (shown in TPM) presumably works. A Jedi devotes all power to speed for a short burst.

Using Force Speed in battle is likely more harmful than helpful, but devoting enough energy to, say, dodge Maul is within his capabilities.

Although it should be noted Revan has employed Force Speed in combat, so Vitiate might too as well, lol.

lmao so then by that logic why do combatants bother to train specific Force techniques and close quarters combat if it's 100% a function of your overall reserves?

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by The Ellimist
lmao so then by that logic why do combatants bother to train specific Force techniques and close quarters combat if it's 100% a function of your overall reserves?
Force-backed enhancements (precognition, speed, strength, etc.) are only half (not exactly - depends on case to case) of the equation.

The other half is, obviously, actual skill, hence the need for training and improvement.

Valkorion obviously isn't as proficient as Maul with a lightsaber, but he is stronger and faster - strong and fast enough to completely circumvent Maul's skill advantage, even in CQC, in my books.

Deronn_solo

The only time speed has made - or broke- a fight in SW is when one combatant is far more powerful overall than the other.

Why we think Vitiate is suddenly excluded from the rather ironclad defacto rule is beyond me.

DarthAnt66

Explaining my thinking:

https://i.imgur.com/fgMXloh.png

The Ellimist

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Force-backed enhancements (precognition, speed, strength, etc.) are only half (not exactly - depends on case to case) of the equation.

And you're still assuming that Force augmentation is purely a function of overall Force reserves. Never mind how that explains Raskta Lsu, or Luke matching Vader as a duelist (and in Force augmentation given their deadlocking) but being vastly inferior in telekinesis per his own admission in RotJ, or why Force users bother to train for specific Force abilities at all.

From what we see of him, novel Vitiate's in-practice combat awareness is atrocious, with him getting tagged on multiple occasions by inferior Force users (Revan, Meetra) and almost getting incinerated by T3, despite having literally the best possible tactical starting position for his abilities (a long walkway).

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by The Ellimist
And you're still assuming that Force augmentation is purely a function of overall Force reserves.
It is, but like I also noted, Force users can specifically devote amounts of energy to specific aspects of their body.

retardedornah?

Lsu devotes all her energy to speed and dueling-relevant aspects, thereby having no energy left to, say, put up barriers.

I'd like to refrain from commenting on this until our debate, but I disagree.

Care to provide further clarification?

Sirion_Of_Doom

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Factually, comparably powerful Force users will have comparably powerful amounts of Force energy flowing into them.

Therefore, in the case of Malgus and Leener, we can conclude Malgus puts more energy into augmenting strength whereas Leener augmenting speed.
No, because, again, you haven't proved that a connection between a persons amount of Force energy within and the ''level'' of that persons speed exists. Your entire premise that you are basing your argument is not proven. More to the point, you might as well say that everything a Force adept can do is directly based on their overall power, because you have also not pointed out a difference between speed and any other power, such as telekinesis, or Force drain, or whatever else.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The text doesn't need to state anything besides stating they are comparably powerful with each having an edge in different areas. The conclusion is pretty straight-forward.
?
The text doesn't owe their different edges to them focusing more power in that area. That's something you're making up to suit your agenda. It is completely unsupported in the text.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus is pretty obviously a Djem So/Shien practitioner while Leneer is most likely an Ataru one. Prioritisation of certain skills is obviously a factor in lightsaber combat based upon your combat style.
Since when did lightsaber form have anything to do with speed? Anakin uses Djem So, yet he is almost certainly faster (by quite a bit) than Qui-Gon, who uses Ataru. Plagueis disliked lightsaber combat altogether, yet was still incredibly fast. Prove that Malgus was slower than Aryn because he somehow prioritized strength over speed, and not because she was simply faster than him.

Nephthys

Originally posted by The Ellimist
From what we see of him, novel Vitiate's in-practice combat awareness is atrocious, with him getting tagged on multiple occasions by inferior Force users (Revan, Meetra) and almost getting incinerated by T3, despite having literally the best possible tactical starting position for his abilities (a long walkway).

And Maul has better combat awareness? He's flubbed almost every fight he's had. Someone post the dog gif.

Sirion_Of_Doom

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Maul has better combat awareness? He's flubbed almost every fight he's had. Someone post the dog gif.
The coyote argument is indeed an invincible position to hold.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by Sirion_Of_Doom
No, because, again, you haven't proved that a connection between a persons amount of Force energy within and the ''level'' of that persons speed exists. Your entire premise that you are basing your argument is not proven.
I'll re-explain my stance (but also refer to the picture above for reference):

Let's say person M has 5 midichlorians and person V has 10 midichlorians (that are combat applicable). Let's also say, per midichlorian, they get 5 pts of Force energy.

So, we have person M with 25 pts of Force energy and person V with 50 pts of Force energy.

Person V, therefore, has a vastly greater amount of energy to devote to speed than person M.

Thus, person V (hint: Valkorion) is faster than person M (hint: Maul).

Of course, Maul can devote all his pts of Force energy to speed (ex. Force Speed), but so could Valkorion - and to a greater extent.

Something like a Force push should follow under the same rules. More arcane techniques obviously require mastery.

I recognize that the text doesn't openly state what I'm saying, but my point is I'm asking for examples that prove my stance (which, as far as I can tell, is factually and logically consistent with how the Force should work) false, yet this specific case can easily fit within those rules and still be true.

The Ellimist

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It is, but like I also noted, Force users can specifically devote amounts of energy to specific aspects of their body.

Augmentation is a Force technique, and Force techniques need to be learned and practiced, so it's logical to conclude that augmentation is something one needs to hone as well. The formula most plausibly goes:

Augmentation skill = F(overall power, domain specific augmentation ability, how much energy you are putting into it)

Different Force users are can therefore obviously be better at different things even if they had the same overall power.

No...? If it were a matter of choice rather than deficiency then she'd just divert her energy to her barriers when her presumably focused-on precog told her she was going to get attacked. Indeed, people usually direct their energies to put up active barriers anyway, particularly people who may be bad at multitasking in combat like Vitiate who needed to release Revan to defend himself against T3.

See above.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Sirion_Of_Doom
Since when did lightsaber form have anything to do with speed? Anakin uses Djem So, yet he is almost certainly faster (by quite a bit) than Qui-Gon, who uses Ataru. Plagueis disliked lightsaber combat altogether, yet was still incredibly fast. Prove that Malgus was slower than Aryn because he somehow prioritized strength over speed, and not because she was simply faster than him.

Lol, nobody said Djem so users can't be fast too but its less of a priority than a form like Ataru which specialises on fast, acrobatic attacks. Perhaps a better example would be the NJO's strong-medium-fast style forms though.

Malgus is a Sith Juggernaut, descriptions of which indicate focus on sheer strength and durability as their priority for combat. That's why he's running around in heavy armour instead of robes.

ILS

Sounds like I'm listening to a broken record. Force augmentation is a specific skill that requires specific training but also has nothing to do with training even though it does but not in this case.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Augmentation is a Force technique, and Force techniques need to be learned and practiced, so it's logical to conclude that augmentation is something one needs to hone as well. The formula most plausibly goes:

Augmentation skill = F(overall power, domain specific augmentation ability, how much energy you are putting into it)

Different Force users are can therefore obviously be better at different things even if they had the same overall power.

ILS and you constantly peddle the idea that Force augmentation is a skill that demands life-long mastery. I fully disagree. If that were the case, untrained yet powerful beings shouldn't be capable of performing strength and speed feats beyond that seen by trained individuals. For example - and I believe ILS even showed it to me - is Maul perceiving Anakin as a blur in TPM.

EDIT: It's possible that the technique is a learned-once-and-done thing, but the idea of life-long mastery just doesn't follow.

Well, for starters, Lsu is an odd example compared to how it normally works (similiar to how the Darth Bane novels also introduce the idea of an instinctual Greater Force barrier that no other source mentions). Lsu's lifelong devotion to technical mastery reached a degree where she explicitly never bothered to learn other Force techniques like a Greater Force barrier, likely hence why she was unable to initiate one with great success. Note that, in this thread, I never argued all Force techniques are directly linked to combat-applicable power, but basic telekinesis and Force augmentation should be since augmentation is just pouring your Force energy into specific body parts to increase its effectiveness.

Sirion_Of_Doom

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'll reexplain my stance (but also refer to the picture above for reference):

Let's say person M has 5 midichlorians and person V has 10 midichlorians (that are combat applicable). Let's also say, per midichlorian, they get 5 pts of Force energy.

So, we have person M with 25 pts of Force energy and person V with 50 pts of Force energy.

Person V, therefore, has vastly greater amount of energy to devote to speed than person M.

Thus, person V (hint: Valkorion) is faster than person M (hint: Maul).
So TPM Anakin is faster than TPM Maul, because, according to your own made-up system, he has more Force energy? Midi-chlorian count has nothing to do with how much energy one person can devote to something. And again, I ask you to explain, with logic and evidence, the difference between speed and any other power, like Force drain, telekinesis, and so on, because this:

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

It depends on the power. Something like a Force push should follow under the same roles. More arcane techniques obviously require mastery.
...is again unsupported speculation. You're making an awful lot of assumptions. That a Force push is connected to Force power but Force drain isn't is an entirely baseless opinion.

I get that you're trying to justify why Valkorion doesn't get shitstompblitzed by someone like Maul, but a much simpler and more logically fair argument, and to even follow your train of thought, would be that he is not faster than Maul simply because he is more powerful than him, but because it would make no sense that he, on the basis of being one of the most powerful characters in the mythos, would not have devoted time to master a very basic Force technique (speed) to a very high level. To support this point, if Valkorion was this slow, then he would simply have gotten blitzed long before. And so on.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I recognize that the text doesn't openly state what I'm saying, but my point is I'm asking for examples that prove my stance fleshed out above to me true and this specific case can easily fit within those rules and still be true.
I really have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Sirion_Of_Doom

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, nobody said Djem so users can't be fast too but its less of a priority than a form like Ataru which specialises on fast, acrobatic attacks. Perhaps a better example would be the NJO's strong-medium-fast style forms though.

Malgus is a Sith Juggernaut, descriptions of which indicate focus on sheer strength and durability as their priority for combat. That's why he's running around in heavy armour instead of robes.
You're arguing that Aryn is faster than Malgus on the basis that her style of fighting prioritizes speed more than his style of fighting does. Then again I say, the exact same parallel can be drawn between Anakin and Qui-Gon, yet Anakin is much faster.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by Sirion_Of_Doom
So TPM Anakin is faster than TPM Maul, because, according to your own made-up system, he has more Force energy? Midi-chlorian count has nothing to do with how much energy one person can devote to something. And again, I ask you to explain, with logic and evidence, the difference between speed and any other power, like Force drain, telekinesis, and so on, because this:

Presumably, as a Force user matures, more midichlorians because accessible (hence why I said "combat applicable).

This line-of-reasoning explains why Anakin isn't the Father-tier in power when we meet him in TPM.

You don't need to be trained to use Force push. Force drain is a technique that demands teaching and mastery to utilize.

I've opposed the idea that Force augmentation is skill-based since StarWarsForums where you used comic speed blurs to argue character X is faster than character Y. This has nothing to do with Valkorion.

DarthAnt66

It might be beneficial for me to write a full post explaining how I view it (with quotes from sources and whatnot) rather than gradually revealing relevant points when addressed that might appear out-of-nowhere to people who are still stuck in the skill = power mindset of the earlier 2010s.

Sirion_Of_Doom

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Presumably, as a Force user matures, more midichlorians because accessible (hence why I said "combat applicable).
More assumptions with no basis. You also basically did not address any of my points. Since when were midi-chlorians the equivalent of advent calendars that open at a certain time? Again, they have zero relevance to Force energy/skill until the mastery is there.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
This line-of-reasoning explains why Anakin isn't the Father-tier in power when we meet him in TPM.
Because, to use your words, he hadn't ''matured'' yet. He was untrained with no skill and mastery, only slight instinctive ability.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You don't need to be trained to use Force push. Force drain is a technique that demands teaching and mastery to utilize.
Because Force drain is a more difficult and rare, less instinctive technique than a simple Force push. A Force push is telekinesis. Telekinesis is a Force technique that demands mastery to be good with it. Just like Force drain.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I've opposed the idea that Force augmentation is skill-based since StarWarsForums where you used comic speed blurs to argue character X is faster than character Y. This has nothing to do with Valkorion.
Good to see that my influence is strong as ever. I feel your anger, tho.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Sirion_Of_Doom
You're arguing that Aryn is faster than Malgus on the basis that her style of fighting prioritizes speed more than his style of fighting does. Then again I say, the exact same parallel can be drawn between Anakin and Qui-Gon, yet Anakin is much faster.

Because Anakin is much more powerful than Qui-Gon and Qui-Gon was slowed with age.

The Ellimist

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
ILS and you constantly peddle the idea that Force augmentation is a skill that demands life-long mastery. I fully disagree. If that were the case, untrained yet powerful beings shouldn't be capable of performing strength and speed feats beyond that seen by trained individuals. For example - and I believe ILS even showed it to me - is Maul perceiving Anakin as a blur in TPM.

This is actually a case for Maul, because it lends credence to the notion that augmentation is more closely correlated to raw potential than other Force abilities are, and Maul's potential apparently rivals Palpatine's, which is clearly above Vitiate's by your own rankings.

Regardless, just because augmentation is easier to pick up on a superficial level doesn't mean it's easy to master, e.g. when training Bane Kas'im spent a large amount of time trying to explain to him how to harness the dark side for dueling properly - it wasn't merely technical skill and "grow generally in power".

I fail to see how Vitiate can't be the polar opposite of Lsu.

Sirion_Of_Doom

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because Anakin is much more powerful than Qui-Gon and Qui-Gon was slowed with age.
Prove that more power is automatically more speed?

DarthAnt66

As I said, I have midterms this week and it wasn't really my intention to spark a multi-page debate against multiple debaters. I'll respond after studying (depending on the time), but if not tomorrow (given I remember - if not, reminder me, but regardless this topic will likely work its way into the Revan vs Vader debate anyway).

NewGuy01

lol @ thinking raskta is more powerful than bane

DarthAnt66

not what i argued but thanks

Rockydonovang

If we can infer speed levels from power levels, why can't we just do the reverse and infer power levels based on speed levels.

Sirion_Of_Doom

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
If we can infer speed levels from power levels, why can't we just do the reverse and infer power levels based on speed levels.
This was brought up elsewhere, and not refuted.

The logic inherently contradicts itself. Valkorion, based on feats and accolades, is more powerful than Kit Fisto, and therefore faster than him. But Kit Fisto, based on feats and accolades is faster than Valkorion, and therefore more powerful than him... what?

ILS

Originally posted by Sirion_Of_Doom
This was brought up elsewhere, and not refuted.

The logic inherently contradicts itself. Valkorion, based on feats and accolades, is more powerful than Kit Fisto, and therefore faster than him. But Kit Fisto, based on feats and accolades is faster than Valkorion, and therefore more powerful than him... what? thumb up

I'd love to see Ant's answer for why superior speed feats aren't examples of superior power.

Rockydonovang

Just gonna put a friendly reminder that Kenobi has deflected blaster fire from ten thousand droids...

Naugrim

Originally posted by ILS
thumb up

I'd love to see Ant's answer for why superior speed feats aren't examples of superior power.

Probably because it's one of the few ways he can't powerscale Revan in any meaningful way.

Zentrex

We see Obi-Wan in Lone Wolf run upwards of 600 km/hr. and it's implied that he's running at supersonic speeds, and we've seen Mace run seemingly similarly quickly on the battle of Dantooine. And Sarasu deflected a blaster bolt in the span of a nano-second. We've not seen speed feats of these kinds from users like Sidious, Vitiate, Krayt, Exar Kun, and so on. So, speed doesn't really seem to have as much to do with power as it does with those who can hone their skills.