How to quantify Darth Plagueis overpowering the Force's will?

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



DarthAnt66
Thoughts? I'm interested in hearing how we can apply this to fights.

ILS
Interesting thread Ant, most interesting.

I'm starting to dig more into this topic and one's like it in my own research, I might have a better answer for you some time in the future.

Azronger
Essentially, Plagueis hijacked the midi-chlorians from the Force and became their sovereign instead. Given how the Force expresses itself through the midi-chlorians and how all life and all Force abilities are generated from them, Plagueis essentially mastered life, death and the Force as a whole, completely and utterly.

Should he choose to invent a new Force power on a whim, he could. Should he choose to will someone to die, he could. Should he choose to keep himself alive ad infinitum via self-regeneration, he could. As I see it, the limitations of midi-chlorian manipulation are almost non-existent. Anything Plagueis wishes to do within the scope of his power level, he can. He can also grow more powerful by creating new midi-chlorians but seeing as this takes time beyond what he has in the heat of battle, I'd say it is one of the few things he can't use to his advantage in combat (unless he stops time and waits for a few months, then resumes the fight and one-shots the continent).

DarthAnt66
Az: as you noted, Plagueis hijacked the midichlorians from the Force - essentially overpowering the Force's will.

The abilities granted by MM aside, don't you think overpowering the Force's will is even more impressive?

Freedon Nadd
Aren't these two exclusive, though?

What he did with Palps was entirely different. In the first case, he just manipulates individuals' Force cells. In the second case, he wanted to put a shroud over the 'galaxy' with Palps to tip it to the dark side(to outbalance the 'Force') Although, it's worth noting that to Luceno, the Force represents the light side, whereas the dark side represents its corruption(the outbalance).

ILS
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Az: as you noted, Plagueis hijacked the midichlorians from the Force - essentially overpowering the Force's will.

The abilities granted by MM aside, don't you think overpowering the Force's will is even more impressive? Overpowering the midichlorians is them overpowering the Force's will over the cells which make the basis of all life, and the Force communicates it's energy through those cells.

Overpowering the "will" of the Force in the cosmic sense was Plagueis and Sidious going up against the collective energy and will of the Force, which is where all the energy of life, and all psychic energy, stems from. The Force could have smited them, but within the level of influence the Force has shown willing to exert (not much), they were able to shift the alignment of the Cosmic Force completely in favour of the Dark Side.

They're both ultimately amazing feats; one is tampering with the building blocks of life itself, the other is pitting their collective essence/consciousness/psychic power up against the source of all energy in the physical and psychic worlds.

In one they undermine the Force on the physical plane, in the other, the psychic.

Which, btw, has a bearing not only on physical-based Force abilities like telekinesis, but also psychic-based ones like telepathy. Living Force and psychic Force energies are different in application but stem from the same source, and fall under the umbrellas of Sense, Alter and Control. Their meditation, in effect, is an immense telepathic feat at it's root.

So, you know, after accounting for the amount of psychic energy and physical power there would be needed to undermine the Force on it's most fundamental level, resulting in Anakin's birth as a counterattack, you can see why I hold Plagueis so high.

He even got to the point of creating new midichlorians in himself and inducing fatherless births in animals. And because he understood how to alter the composition of midichlorians, which remember, is where all Force abilities are channelled through, he is able to tap into virtually any Force power without the need for a natural talent in them; he can alter his own midichlorians in such a way that, hey, you weren't born with a talent for sorcery, but now that your midichlorians are built the right way, the energies communicated through the Force that would facilitate sorcerous powers can now make their way through your body, as if you were born able to.

Hence why "there are no powers beyond his reach."

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Az: as you noted, Plagueis hijacked the midichlorians from the Force - essentially overpowering the Force's will.

The abilities granted by MM aside, don't you think overpowering the Force's will is even more impressive?

It is, but there's no real way to quantify it beyond "well, Valk failed, so Plagueis > Valk" in my view. If someone else can, though, I'd be interested.

I guess you could say it's the equivalent of willing the entire galaxy to turn into a dark side nexus, but that feat still stands regardless of the Force's will's involvement.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Az: as you noted, Plagueis hijacked the midichlorians from the Force - essentially overpowering the Force's will.

The abilities granted by MM aside, don't you think overpowering the Force's will is even more impressive?

Eh, I think you're overcrediting Plagueis' deed.

First, it is noted that what he did to people didn't really affect the galaxy. The Force isn't concerned with petty things. And you can't hijack something when it also backfires at you. Just because the Force didn't attack Palps and Plagueis back there and then during their meditation; that doesn't mean the Force didn't want to punish them. On contrary, the Force willed Anakin into existence as punishment for them both.
Anakin isn't willed because Plagueis made the Force his b**ch; he is willed due to his dark side machinations to suffuse the galaxy: Punishment

That so-called 'etheric war' referred to Plagueis and Sidious' long meditation to bathe the galaxy into the dark side of the Force. There wasn't really any 'war', except from their point of view. They even wondered why the Force wouldn't just shutdown their Force cells and kill them. Plagueis even mentions later how could it even be possible to outbalance the Force's will.

NewGuy01
>the force isn't concerned with petty things
>literally creates the most powerful being in history to stop them

ILS
The Force has a certain level of will that it is willing to impose on beings. It grants everyone free will and tends not to intervene. It created a god-like being with free will because of Plagueis and Sidious' actions, a being born of pure Force energy with no father. That goes a long way in explaining why the feat is so impressive; the Force has never created a god to defeat anyone else.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by NewGuy01
>the force isn't concerned with petty things
>literally creates the most powerful being in history to stop them

I like how you took it out of the context. Obviously, by petty things I meant Plagueis manipulating individuals' Force cells. The second case is different.

ILS
The Force was concerned enough with Plagueis' tampering that it spontaneously killed his test subjects...

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by ILS
The Force has a certain level of will that it is willing to impose on beings. It grants everyone free will and tends not to intervene. It created a god-like being with free will because of Plagueis and Sidious' actions, a being born of pure Force energy with no father. That goes a long way in explaining why the feat is so impressive; the Force has never created a god to defeat anyone else.

The Force created Anakin as punishment, kind of. It had nothing to do with Plagueis and Sidious' power. They tried to suffuse the galaxy with dark side power via meditation, and the Force punished them.
Second: Plot Force: Anakin's Origins
Third: Abeloth was also a cosmic threat, but the Force didn't will any 'Chosen One' to stop her.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by ILS
The Force was concerned enough with Plagueis' tampering that it spontaneously killed his test subjects...

But it didn't kill him. That was the Force's response: Stop there b**ch, or I am gonna pay it you back with the same coin.
One is to try, one is to succeed. If anyone were to try it: The same would happen.

ILS
Not just anyone can do these things, which is the point, you buffoon.

Haschwalth
Though why would the force, kill the beings that if killed, would tip the balance of the force completely into the light. The light had been dominating the dark for nearly a millennium. hence I can see the force offering no resistance to Plageuis's/sidious's ritual.

ILS
Their ritual not only tore open the bubble/aura of Light the Jedi had put over the galaxy, but then replaced it by plunging the galaxy into a greater darkness than ever before. Neither is necessarily good, only one was bad enough to warrant a Chosen One.

Haschwalth
Originally posted by ILS
Their ritual not only tore open the bubble/aura of Light the Jedi had put over the galaxy, but then replaced it by plunging the galaxy into a greater darkness than ever before. Neither is necessarily good, only one was bad enough to warrant a Chosen One.

In which that chosen one, turned to the dark side.
Ironic.
Pretty shit job on the force's part tbh.

ILS
thumb up

Didn't keep Sheev out of commission for long, either.

But that's mainly because they let Anakin retain his free will.

Haschwalth
You would think the Force would Guide anakin away from that. But the inconstancy of the series, in regard to lore is a pain.

Haschwalth
Though shouldn't the force of foreseen the choices Anakin would of made.
Gah, no point in thinking about it. PIS is common in fiction.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Third: Abeloth was also a cosmic threat, but the Force didn't will any 'Chosen One' to stop her.

What are you even talking about? Abeloth appeared to implement the will of the Force. She's literally the "Chosen One" in that situation, lmao.

ILS
BTW, I'm not sure why nobody talks about this, but it seems like Plagueis was the one who created Anakin. As in, he manipulated the midichlorians which resulted in his birth, but unwittingly did not realise that the Force passed on it's own will through those midichlorians in birthing a Chosen One.

Plagueis is basically Anakin's dad.

Azronger
Very interesting, never made that connection.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by ILS
Not just anyone can do these things, which is the point, you buffoon.

Obviously by 'anyone' I meant powerful Force-users.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by NewGuy01
What are you even talking about? Abeloth appeared to implement the will of the Force. She's literally the "Chosen One" in that situation, lmao.

How can she implement the will, when she is a dark side/corruptive Force avatar?

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by ILS
BTW, I'm not sure why nobody talks about this, but it seems like Plagueis was the one who created Anakin. As in, he manipulated the midichlorians which resulted in his birth, but unwittingly did not realise that the Force passed on it's own will through those midichlorians in birthing a Chosen One.

Plagueis is basically Anakin's dad.

Wasn't Anakin willed due to the suffuse of dark side power in the galaxy(not due to midi-chlorian alteration)?

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by ILS
Their ritual not only tore open the bubble/aura of Light the Jedi had put over the galaxy, but then replaced it by plunging the galaxy into a greater darkness than ever before. Neither is necessarily good, only one was bad enough to warrant a Chosen One.

So, you agree, it is a ritual, good.

But you forgot some things:
1. It took months
2. It was not a singular act. It was a collective focus(Plagueis and Sidious)
3. It is not combat applicative.

Therefore, I don't see why would you credit Plagueis alone for the 'feat'?
Given that the most powerful Sith Lords of Bane's lineage united their power to do so. It doesn't surprise me.

Besides that, rituals involve other (dark)forces to aid users, not only users' Force strength alone.

Haschwalth
Sounds like the force just got sick, of plageuis/Sidious ****ing with it. And used Plageuis's creation against them, to **** with them back.

ILS
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
So, you agree, it is a ritual, good.

But you forgot some things:
1. It took months
2. It was not a singular act. It was a collective focus(Plagueis and Sidious)
3. It is not combat applicative.

Therefore, I don't see why would you credit Plagueis alone for the 'feat'?
Given that the most powerful Sith Lords of Bane's lineage united their power to do so. It doesn't surprise me.

Besides that, rituals involve other (dark)forces to aid users, not only users' Force strength alone. ...it was a meditation ritual, it didn't have any external contributions aside from Plagueis and Sidious' willpower. Repeating ad nauseam that it took months doesn't change the fact that it's consequences were more dire than anything else up to that point, which includes countless wars, deaths, genocides, extinctions, etc.

You're failing to grasp that Sidious and Plagueis' sheer will was powerful enough to "irrevocably tip" the Force into a shroud of darkness, "not a mere paradigm shift but a tangible alteration felt by all strong in the Force." The Dark Side had never proliferated the Force to such an extreme extent in all of history. The Jedi could barely access their foresight because of it, despite the likes of Yoda being extremely capable seers.

And as for combat, given that telepathy is largely a consequence of 1. Willpower. 2. Force power and 3. Mastery, and given that the the will of the Force tends to be quite a difficult thing to change with just the Force of your mind, I would say the feat reflects extremely positively on Plagueis' telepathic and general power.

But by all means, remain in denial if you must.

LordOfTheLight
Originally posted by Azronger
Very interesting, never made that connection.

I've been saying the same thing to you now for quite some time.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Haschwalth
Sounds like the force just got sick, of plageuis/Sidious ****ing with it. And used Plageuis's creation against them, to **** with them back.

Freedon Nadd
"not a mere paradigm shift but a tangible alteration felt by all strong in the Force."

That's because Luceno's philosophy of the Force is that the dark side shrouding the 'galaxy' is an act of total corruption. To, Luceno, the dark side is not a part of the Force, like in Drew Karpyshyn's dual Force philosophy.

ILS
2/10, too retarded thumb down

Freedon Nadd
Also if Plagueis was such a threat to the Force. Then the Force wouldn't will into existence a Chosen One, nor kill his experiments, but instead it would kill the Muun.

ILS
sick

Azronger
Stop talking to Freedumb Nadd, ILS. It's a waste of time.

Azronger
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
I've been saying the same thing to you now for quite some time.

Sorry, but I don't recall you telling me that. Might have missed it.

Nephthys
It doesn't really say anything about his standing ability or combat power.

Beniboybling
Sheev used the same technique (sheer will) to create Force storms, the most destructive Force power in existence, so go figure.

The Ellimist

Azronger
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sheev used the same technique (sheer will) to create Force storms, the most destructive Force power in existence, so go figure.

He also returned from Chaos and could sustain his spirit in the physical plane without needing to anchor it - feats that no one else have pulled off thumb up

Beniboybling

Azronger
How rude

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Azronger
Stop talking to Freedumb Nadd, ILS. It's a waste of time.

So, I am stupid because I say something logical, okay? At least I don't use assumptions and 'beliefs' describing characters or beliefs and assumptions made by characters to support my stance.

Azronger
How do you post those fancy symbols

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Azronger
He also returned from Chaos and could sustain his spirit in the physical plane without needing to anchor it - feats that no one else have pulled off thumb up

Naga Sadow says, "Hello". He was sent into Chaos when Ovair killed Gynt(who was possessed by Sadow's spirit)
Then, in 3638 BBY, Sadow's spirit manifested as a ghost in the jungles of Yavin 4.

And also, IIRC, Sidious escaped Chaos with the help of Sith Spirits and Sate Pestage.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sheev used the same technique (sheer will) to create Force storms, the most destructive Force power in existence, so go figure.

It also requires dark side energies. Either using your own or by wielding them(given by a dark side nexus); or you can use both sources.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Azronger
He also returned from Chaos and could sustain his spirit in the physical plane without needing to anchor it - feats that no one else have pulled off thumb up

Because he was 'consuming' his own Force energies to sustain himself. That's why Kun also drained the Massassi of their lifeforce, so he could use it to escape Yavin 4 as spirit.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by ILS
sick

Really, that's your response? It's logical if Plagueis threatened the Force or the Balance, it would have killed him.
The other guy is right: They tried to fvck it up, and it fvcked them up as punishment.

I never implied, in my comments, that the Force was afraid of them and that's why it spawned Anakin. If the Force was afraid: It'd have killed them directly back there and then. It's clearly that the Force punished them for their attempts to outbalance it, but it had no fear for them.
So, the Force punished them due to their attempt not because they succeeded in what they proposed. The Force spawned Anakin because it wanted to teach them a lesson, not because it was afraid of them.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.