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Two things caught my eye after looking over Rule of Two and Dynasty of Evil.

We'll start with Freedon Nadd, his holocron and the orbalisks. Bane came into possession of Nadd's holocron. Nadd's holocron contains everything Nadd ever learned of the dark side, most notably, he had acquired all of Naga Sadow's own dark side knowledge, which by proxy is contained within. Naga Sadow's teachings were the basis for Exar Kun's own power, the only other notable artifact I can remember being the Dark Holocron, which he obtained while already DLOTS.

Bane, over the course of two decades, presumably harvested all there is to know about the holocron.

Anyway, more to the point, we see Nadd's spectre; he's looking in pretty bad shape, but most notably, we can see that he is human, we can see his skin and so on. We also know from the few images we have of him that his helmet-crown showed his face.
-Rule of Two

We also know that Nadd only had partial success in controlling the power of the Orbalisks. Nadd through his experiments also was able to ascertain that they are impossible to remove, they cause immense physical pain, and if one of the orbalisks is killed, it will release toxins into the host and kill them over the course of a few days. He also identified that they can grow over time until they cover the whole body, and had drawn up schematics for armour which will prevent them from covering vital areas of the body, like the face.
-Rule of Two

Judging by a comparison of Orbalisk Bane and Nadd's appearances, and the description of Nadd, indicates that Nadd never completed this armour blueprint for himself).

My thoughts? It's unclear to what degree Nadd experimented on himself and on other test subjects. For him to find out about the Orbalisks' lethal side effects, he would need to have observed them first hand in order to enter the findings into his holocron. He clearly had plans to one day don the Orbalisk armour himself, but it seems fairly clear that he failed in this endeavour, judging by his depiction in the holocron and his own withered, and Orbalisk-free, physique.

It's possible to conclude that he met his end trying to tame the Orbalisks, they were found inside of his tomb after all. But in any case, he failed to master them.

Bane, on the other hand, was able to master the Orbalisks for a decade, until they covered his entire body, forming a symbiotic bond with them. Therefore, it seems that he succeeded where Nadd failed.

Given that his success with the Orbalisks was purely attributed to his command of the Force, this seems like compelling evidence that Bane was more powerful than Nadd. Add in that he learned everything there is to know from Nadd's holocron, and, that he is demonstrably more powerful by Dynasty of Evil (due to his respective fights against Zannah in RoT and DoE, and his much heightened willpower between the two books), and it further cements the case.

The next observation is quite simple; Bane thought that Force-power boosting artifacts, such as the amulets Exar Kun and Ulic wore, were negligible compared to his own power. He compared them to "a single drop of rain" compared to the "ocean of power he already commanded."
-Dynasty of Evil

This is pertinent because, as we know, Bane has learned everything there is to be known about the Dark Side from Nadd and by proxy Naga Sadow, who formed the basis for Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma's own teachings. All four saw it pertinent to hoard and make use of Sith amulets and other trinkets, in fact, upon becoming Exar's apprentice, Ulic Qel-Droma fashions his own amulet into a gauntlet.

Bane would undoubtedly have read a treatise on how to build these amulets during the decades he spent learning from Nadd, and had come across many during his lifetime, and yet he found them negligible to his own power and infinitely less valuable than the Force-secrets offered by the ancient Sith.
-Dynasty of Evil

So in conclusion, Bane seems to have succeeded where the ancients failed in taming the power of the Orbalisks, and grew beyond the need for trinkets that they found incredibly important to their battle prowess.

Two possible counters I see to this are.

1. Bane struggled to create a holocron, indicating his weakness.

2. Bane thought the feats of the ancient Sith were hyperbolic and beyond his own capabilities.

Both concerns are cleared up quite easily. As far as the holocron is concerned:

1. Bane's struggle with creating the holocron was heightened due to the constant pain he suffered at the hands of the Orbalisks, which he had to suppress. By devoting energy to the creation of a holocron, he opened himself up to the unbearable pain and set himself back.

2. Bane's failing with the holocron owed not to a deficiency in power, but in knowledge of one particular secret. He didn't know the "Rite of Commencement," that is to say, he had yet to master a specific ritual which if not done, would lead to failure in every attempt to create a holocron. After learning this secret, he successfully made his holocron.

3. We don't even know how long it took the likes of Nadd to create a holocron, so using it as a benchmark for comparison seems fallacious. Nadd ruled for over a century as DLOTS, plenty of time to study up on holocron creation.

Regarding Bane's awe of the ancient Sith's feats:

-Rule of Two

So, as we can see, he is in awe of Naga Sadow's feat of wrenching out the cores of stars to cause cataclysmic damage. Bane may not be entirely cognisant of the fact that Naga owes nearly all of the credit of this feat to his Sith Corsair, which is the power source he uses to cause such destruction. Simply reading about the feat in historical accounts may have given him the wrong impression.

But despite that feat, Bane felt that based on what he had learned of those who had made holocrons before him, that his powers still measured up to theirs. His only doubts were 1. In his ability to cause supernovas and 2. In his ability to construct holocrons.

Both of his concerns are unnecessary, as neither feat is attributed to one's personal command of the Force independent of external power sources or secret knowledge. So it seems his estimation is otherwise correct, his abilities do measure up to those of the ancient Sith who came before him.

Bane lowballs his predecessors and highballs himself. I don't know what's the deal with these dark side bugs.

Nice

DoE Bane > RoT Bane > Freedon Nadd

Where does it even say that? Because Bane says so? Exar also said he was the greatest Sith that ever lived. I don't think that's true, though.

Huh, DMB is right, Bane is Kun+. SF Malak vs Bane might be a good match tbh.

Also, Rule of Two Darth Zannah receives pretty reliable scaling over Thon. Credit to EmperorDMB and his Darth Zannah respect thread for the following argument.

https://i.imgur.com/x1gduLc.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/puw6AmP.png

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/emperordmb/blog/darth-zannah-respect-thread/124971/

So DOE Bane > Orbalisk Bane >>> ROT Bane w/out Orbalisks >>>> ROT Zannah > Thon

To be clear, RoT Bane without Orbalisks can snap Zannah's neck casually, with the Orbalisks his power multiplied massively, and DoE Bane is even stronger than that.

So Bane would likely waste the dinosaur Jedi.

https://i.imgur.com/FlYVAFB.png

The text indicates Freedon Nadd only having partial control means he could not prevent them from mass-replicating or from poisoning him if they die.

Neither could Bane.

You would have to argue that Bane's PoV is deliberately deceptive if it frames the narrative with Nadd being only partially successful in controlling the orbalisks, providing blueprints for orbalisk armor he never completes, Bane completing it, and yet apparently this not clearly implying that Bane got more control than Nadd because Nadd actually thought it was a bad idea or something.

Nadd's only partially successful in controlling the orbalisks because he could not handle the side-effects.

The text later notes how Bane likewise "fails" in being able to remove them.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The text indicates Freedon Nadd only having partial control means he could not prevent them from mass-replicating or from poisoning him if they die.

Neither could Bane. The "partly successful efforts to control their power is referring to the possibility to "tap into the parasites' ability to feed on the dark side to greatly increase one's own command of the Force." If it was referring to the negative side-effects, it would say, "the efforts to control their side effects." A further distinction is made after about the side effects.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nadd's only partially successful in controlling the orbalisks because he could not handle the side-effects.

The text later notes how Bane likewise "fails" in being able to remove them.

Nadd didn't even get that far - he never completed the armor.

Seeing as how Exar Kun got his amulet from Freedon Nadd, if Nadd's holocron did not contain instructions on amulet construction it certainly would've mentioned the power of his own, given that Nadd considered collecting such amulets crucial to a Sith Lord's power. This would suggest that Bane was aware of the power of amulets on the order of Exar Kun's, and yet he still showed no interest in finding or creating them.

Now all we need is Harrison to come in and explain why authorial intent matters everywhere else but here, and the Bane wank will have come full circle.

Originally posted by ILS
The "partly successful efforts to control their power is referring to the possibility to "tap into the parasites' ability to feed on the dark side to greatly increase one's own command of the Force." If it was referring to the negative side-effects, it would say, "the efforts to control their side effects." A further distinction is made after about the side effects.

What?

You seem to be arguing two different things here.

On GH, you're arguing Freedon Nadd did not have the "sufficient dark side energy" required to make himself a host for the orbalisks.

However, the quote you're citing is talking about drawing on a power source for strength, which doesn't require power whatsoever, so clearly that is not Nadd's issue.

Nadd being unable to control the orbalisks power and Nadd being unable to control the side-effects are the same thing.

He failed either way. Bane made a full set of armour out of them. Time to get over it instead of hyper-analysing the text, I think.

It seems clear now:

DE Sidious >> RotJ Sidious >> RotS Sidious > EoTPM Sidious >> TPM Sidious > Plagueis >> Tenebrous >> Tenebrous's master >>>>>...>>>>...>>> DoE Bane >> ( (Exar Kun) && (Orbalisk Bane >> RoT Bane >> Freedon Nadd))

Here's an example of Bane being unable to control the "power" of the orbalisks. When he gets hit with too much power, the orbalisks feed on it to the point they pop.

Nadd can't control things like this - same for Bane.

If anything, it indicates Nadd is so powerful that the orbalisks can't be placed on him. mmm

Coming from a Bane supporter, this seems like a pretty arbitrary way to evaluate strength.

Ant continues to ignore the fact that Nadd never completed his armor lmfao

Tell me Nadd opting out due to the blatant side-effects is relevant.

We now have two independent lines of scaling:

- Nadd fails to complete the armor, Bane succeeds

- Nadd finds amulets to significantly amplify his powers, Bane thinks they're a minuscule fraction of his

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Tell me Nadd opting out due to the blatant side-effects is relevant.

Where does it say that...?

It never states Nadd ever attempted the armor in the first place, just that he made the blueprints.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It never states Nadd ever attempted the armor in the first place, just that he made the blueprints.

I give your mental gymnastics a 4.5 tbh

Tell me why I'm wrong.

You're arguing Nadd failed to complete the armor. Says who? Where's that indicated?

As far as I'm concerned, he never started the armor.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


Here's an example of Bane being unable to control the "power" of the orbalisks. When he gets hit with too much power, the orbalisks feed on it to the point they pop.

Nadd can't control things like this - same for Bane.

If anything, it indicates Nadd is so powerful that the orbalisks can't be placed on him. mmm

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Tell me why I'm wrong.

You're arguing Nadd failed to complete the armor. Says who? Where's that indicated?

As far as I'm concerned, he never started the armor.

If Nadd went through all this research in attempting to control the orbalisks, including blueprints for using it as armor, but then decided that the side effects weren't worth the risks, he would have told Bane, who would have noted or otherwise factored that into his decision making. That Bane's narration would frame this as Nadd trying and failing to control the orbalisks and having blueprints for armor that he never completes but never saying that Nadd told him he decided against making the armor rather than failing to as "partly successful" may imply would suggest one of four things:

- Nadd was deliberately f*cking with Bane (then why would he warn him of the side effects and armor safety mechanisms in the first place?)

- Nadd denigrated himself by pretending he wasn't powerful enough when he just decided not to (LMFAO)

- Bane's PoV narration was deliberately deceptive (which we should believe just because Ant wants to believe it?)

- Nadd tried but failed to make the armor

Seems like option 4 is the most likely.

I don't think you have any clue what you're talking about.

The orbalisks attach to Bane, so then he consults the Nadd holocron. Nadd's holocron warns of the side-effects, but notes that the armor can be used to help counter one of the side-effects - aka reproducing over the entire body.

Why Nadd opted to not create the orbalisk armor is unknown, but it is likely he still thought the side-effects outweighed the pros. Further, as I noted, orbalisks pop if absorbing too much energy, so Nadd might be so powerful they couldn't be put on him.

Your version of Nadd "failing to make the armor" doesn't make any sense. Nadd never had a full-body of orbalisks on him in the first place, so no armor attempt could ever be made.

The armor, which I don't think you get, is just a safeguard against one of the side-effects. It's not an indication of power by using it, lmfao.

Funny that Nadd never bothered to mention that he was just too powerful for the orbalisks. You'd think that would've been a pretty important detail for a self-aggrandizing Sith to note. mmm

Already addressed why Nadd probably didn't voluntarily refuse to go as far with orbalisks as Bane had.

Re a trademarked Ant ninja edit:

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The armor, which I don't think you get, is just a safeguard against one of the side-effects. It's not an indication of power by using it, lmfao.

It's an indication of power that Bane was able to use full-body orbalisks. The blueprints suggest Nadd had put a nontrivial amount of effort into trying to do the same.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Funny that Nadd never bothered to mention that he was just too powerful for the orbalisks. You'd think that would've been a pretty important detail for a self-aggrandizing Sith to note. mmm

Sith Holocorns only reveal information that they judge relevant to the powers of the user.



Your point did not make any sense.

As far as we know, Freedon Nadd never put the orbalisks on him. Thus, he voluntarily refused to go as far with the orbalisks as Darth Bane did.

You seem to be suggesting Freedon Nadd put orbalisks on him, but then failed to operate them so that they could form a sheet of armor.

That is entirely unsupported, especially since Freedon Nadd does not think they can be removed without killing the user.

Secondly, I do not think the armor has anything to do with power and/or controlling the orbalisks anyway.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sith Holocorns only reveal information that they judge relevant to the powers of the user.

mmm

That's funny. It's almost as though earlier you had made it a central argument to brag about how PoD Bane could barely wrap his mind around the rituals and techniques outlined in Darth Revan's holocron. But it's good to note now that Bane as a trainee was more than powerful enough to grasp them all.



That Nadd didn't put orbalisks on him (even if this is true) and that he wasn't powerful enough to do so aren't mutually exclusive, given that he clearly put effort into researching them and seems to think Bane could properly use them (unless he's trying to get Bane killed in which case why give the warnings and blueprints?)

Originally posted by The Ellimist
mmm

That's funny. It's almost as though earlier you had made it a central argument to brag about how PoD Bane could barely wrap his mind around the rituals and techniques outlined in Darth Revan's holocron. But it's good to note now that Bane as a trainee was more than powerful enough to grasp them all.

The key is "barely wrap his mind."

I have commonly noted that, if Darth Bane could barely wrap his mind over a lot of Revan's rituals and spells, it is highly likely that there is countless information that is outright not stated.

Regardless, concession accepted.



You're backtracking at this point. I noted other reasons why Freedon Nadd might not want to use the orbalisks - a.) he views the side-effects as outweighing the pros b.) he is too powerful to use them.

Your argument that he is outright not powerful enough to handle the orbalisks is, frankly, less supported than my first argument. Using it as definitive is laughable.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The key is "barely wrap his mind."

I have commonly noted that, if Darth Bane could barely wrap his mind over a lot of Revan's rituals and spells, it is highly likely that there is countless information that was outright not stated.


Given your own claim that holocrons only reveal relevant information, why would Revan bother telling Bane rituals he could "barely wrap his mind" around unless he thought Bane could successfully pull them off in the future, and perhaps the "barely wrap his mind" around part was just that it was a padawan-equivalent Bane studying his stuff over the course of a week?

Think about how many concepts you'd find trivial after even a few months of study/practice you might be barely able to wrap you mind around the first time you ever hear it.

That means that there's no reason to think that there was more information there Bane couldn't hope to grasp beyond your own wild speculation. Seems to invalidate one of your most prized arguments, but good to note.



Given that you just pulled two claims out of your ass, nah. Citation needed.



Already addressed. Nadd doesn't advise Bane not to use them, he does mention negative side effects but also gives him lots of information to take the armor himself. He didn't say "I'm much more powerful than you and even I was scared of it".



Doubtful given that

- his powers were vastly amplified by amulets that are trivial next to Bane, and

- Nadd was not able to control the side effects



He experimented with orbalisks, noted it could be made into armor, was noted to be only partly successful, and then never made it into armor. Bane did, while never noting Nadd decided the risks were too costly which would require his PoV narration to be deliberately deceptive.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Given your own claim that holocrons only reveal relevant information, why would Revan bother telling Bane rituals he could "barely wrap his mind" around unless he thought Bane could successfully pull them off in the future, and perhaps the "barely wrap his mind" around part was just that it was a padawan-equivalent Bane studying his stuff over the course of a week?

Think about how many concepts you'd find trivial after even a few months of study/practice you might be barely able to wrap you mind around the first time you ever hear it.

That means that there's no reason to think that there was more information there Bane couldn't hope to grasp beyond your own wild speculation. Seems to invalidate one of your most prized arguments, but good to note.



"Barely wrap his mind" indicates that his mind can still partially understand it. Darth Bane writes down everything Revan says for later study.



Citation for the Holocron only revealing as much information as necessary?



Jesus Christ.

"Nadd doesn't advise Bane not to use them?" The orbalisks are already attached to Darth Bane. What is Freedon Nadd suppose to say: oh, the orbalisks are on you, but make sure not to get orbalisks on you? You're argument is terrible.



What indication are there that Freedon Nadd used extensive amulets? Besides, that doesn't mean Darth Bane is more powerful than all amulets, lol.

That point and Freedon Nadd not being able to control the side-effects work together. Since Freedon Nadd is so powerful, the side-effects - being unable to be removed without killing the person and multiplying as they grow by feasting - is increased. Thus, for someone like Freedon Nadd, the side-effects would be far more potent than it is for Darth Bane.



It was noted that he was only partly successful at controlling the orbalisks power, which I noted is likely the side-effects.

As I've stated many times, there are many reasons why Freedon Nadd would opt not to make it into armor.

The PoV narration is not deceptive in not mentioning Freedon Nadd decided the risks were too costly. That has nothing to do with the actual storyline. Darth Bane has the orbalisks on him whether he wants it or not. Now, if Darth Bane listened to the Holocron then went to put on the orbalisks you would have a point.

As retarded as the idea of Nadd being "too powerful to wear Orbalisks" sounds, I'm also getting the the distinct impression that Ellimist has never read RoT.

Sometimes you have to fight cancer with cancer.

Concession accepted on that argument then...?

I'll get to the rest of your post later.

No, I stand by it as a more legitimate possibility than Freedon Nadd being unable to use the orbalisks due to a lack of power.

Obviously the only reason someone wouldn't want a suit of armor that constantly shreds all your flesh to pieces and sends you into berserk rampages is that they're too weak to handle the powah. There's literally no other reason possible.

Nadd clearly wanted to, seeing as he drew up the blueprints for an armour to handle it and made partial efforts in controlling their power.

Nowhere is it said "I was gonna, but it just hurt too bad" or "I was gonna, but I didn't like the look of it." That part is just conjecture.

And Bane actually made the armor and wore it before becoming convinced that it wasn't worth it and trying to get rid of it. That Nadd looked into it and considered it doesn't mean he had to have failed to do it.

Bane thought the armour was preventing him from making a holocron, but he was wrong. He then wanted to keep the orbalisks. I've not read the whole book but I'm unaware that it's said anywhere that Bane wanted them removed. It's said he "lost" them at the end, last time I looked.

Bane decides to re-evaluate after discovering that, but he doesn't dismiss the idea out of hand. There are clear downsides of them, like how he almost killed Zannah in a blind rage that one time. But really, Nadd could have just died before finishing his research. There could be any number of reasons why Nadd never went ahead with the armor. It's ridiculous to suggest Bane is better based purely on this.

I still fail to see how the orbalisk-'mastery' proves Bane>ancient Sith?

Pretty cool. Bane lives needs to be a new meme.

>Kun's amulet merely channels his own rage into beams of dark side energy.
>Bane doesn't think they'll make him more powerful.
>Somehow this means Bane > Kun.

Seems legit.

I think it was stated in the DLOTS that the amulet doubles the blasts' potency.

His rage doubled, and continued to multiply the more pissed/more energy he put into it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
His rage doubled, and continued to multiply the more pissed/more energy he put into it.

I checked the source again. And you are right. But why does Exar Kun need a pair of gauntlets for that? I guess I'll never understand.

Oh, new argument. The Ancient Sith can't channel their anger properly, whereas modern Sith can. Bane > Kun.

Lmao

Bane lives.

Originally posted by Stigma
Bane lives.



Bane lives.