Snoke and the First Order

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Galan007
This excerpt gives a bit of insight into the origins of the First Order, along with Snoke:



Evidently Palpatine had a contingency-plan for just about everything. thumb up

Kurk
Ahh Sheev; A cautious man and a meticulous planner. Just like me smile

Freedon Nadd
Mas Amedda is Snoke.

Zentrex
Nothing new, but OH is it satisfying to have it concisely placed in a canon text like this.



I need to get that book.

Zentrex
Here's a breakdown of the quote:

Snoke knew he himself was an unlikely fulcrum, just about the furthest thing from what the tattered remnants of Palpatine's Empire had imagined as a leader.

Snoke himself believed that he was not a fit ruler of the first order

The admirals and generals who'd survived the fury of the Empire's implosion and the New Republic's wrath had envisioned being led by someone else, anyone else: pitiless, devious Gallius Rax; dutiful, cautious Rae Sloane; the slippery political fanatic Ormes Apolin; or even an unhinged but ambitious military architect such as Brendol Hux. All of those would-be leaders had been co-opted, sidelined, or destroyed, leaving only Armitage Hux, the mad son of a mad father. And that one was but a mouthpiece, a miscast tinkerer whose rantings could only persuade the sort of rabble who blindly worshipped rage and lunatic certainty.

We knew this already

Though galactic history would record it differently -Snoke would see to that- the evolution of the First Order had been more improvisation than master plan.

Snoke was trying to implement revisionist history, and what the first order became was through the series of coincidences which added to Palpatine's bare-bones plan.

That was another element visions tended to miss. Palpatine had engineered the Contingency to simultaneously destroy his Empire and ensure its rebirth, ruthlessly winnowing its ranks and rebuilding them with who and what survived.

We already knew that

The rebuilding was to take place in the Unknown Regions, secretly explored by Imperial scouts and seeded with shipyards, laboratories, and storehouses--an enormously expensive effort that had taken decades, and been kept hidden from all but the elect.

we already knew that
(Although shipyards, laboratories, and storehouses is something to keep in mind and look out for)

But the Imperial refugees' military preparations had been insufficient bulwarks against the terrors of the Unknown Regions.

There are terrors in the unknown regions which even imperial military could not fight against

Grasping in the dark among strange stars, they had come perilously close to destruction, and it had not been military might that saved them.

"The dark" may refer to the dark side of the Force, implying that the "terrors" from the unknown regions are in fact related to the dark side of the force. We may be dealing with Force Demons, or Lovecraftian beings. Possibly even just nexuses or energies/ghosts/spirits of the dark side, some things not quite sentient but still with a will to harm.

It had been knowledge--Snoke's knowledge. Which, ironically, led back to Palpatine and his secrets.

Snoke has knowledge which can save people from terrors (potentially of the force) so powerful that even imperial military can't deal with them. And Palpatine knew about the existence of these secrets, and was on the verge of discovering them. Remember that Sidious had calls from the unknown regions that only he could hear. So more dark side knowledge in the new canon. I like it.

Palpatine's true identity as Darth Sidious, heir to the Sith, had been an even greater secret than the Contingency.

We already knew this

And the Empire's explorations into the Unknown Regions had served both aspects of its ruler.

Confirmation on the fact that Sidious went into the Unknown Regions both because he wanted the Empire to live on if it was ever destroyed, and because he wanted secrets of the dark side which he knew existed

For Sidious knew that the galaxy's knowledge of the Force had come from those long-abandoned, half-legendary star systems, and that great truths awaited rediscovery among them.

The unknown regions were home to abandoned, half-legendary star systems which knew secrets which had been lost to time. May explain the "Terrors" which haunt this region. The knowledge of the Force was introuced to the galaxy from these star systems, and Sidious knew this.

Truths that Snoke had learned and made to serve his own ends

Snoke knows what Sidious wanted to know

Galan007
Originally posted by Zentrex
But the Imperial refugees' military preparations had been insufficient bulwarks against the terrors of the Unknown Regions.

There are terrors in the unknown regions which even imperial military could not fight against Indeed. Thrawn warned Palpatine of these threats when they first met just after the Clone Wars. Years later(when Thrawn was an Admiral and had knowledge of the Death Star and its capabilities) he still noted to Nightswan that some of the Unknown Region's threats were "far more evil and dangerous than the Empire" -- which speaks volumes about whatever is out there *cough*YuuzhanVong*cough*

Originally posted by Zentrex
Grasping in the dark among strange stars, they had come perilously close to destruction, and it had not been military might that saved them.

"The dark" may refer to the dark side of the Force, implying that the "terrors" from the unknown regions are in fact related to the dark side of the force. We may be dealing with Force Demons, or Lovecraftian beings. Possibly even just nexuses or energies/ghosts/spirits of the dark side, some things not quite sentient but still with a will to harm. When taken in context, "grasping in the dark among strange stars" is referring to the Unknown Regions and the...'hurdles' the Imperial remnants found there.

Zentrex
I did see a sentence on wookiepedia sourced to the star wars databanks which said that Thrawn was one of the biggest reasons the Imperials managed to survive as long as they did.

As for the Yuuzhan Vong...I don't know. You think they'd introduce something like that? I mean, there is a precedence for them, but it's an old idea, and kind of a crazy one. Force Demons, or hell even something completely new which we've never seen before would satisfy me more.
But...if it is indeed the Yuuzhan Vong, then what kind of secrets does Snoke know which allowed him to hold them back? That could make for a VERY interesting line of story to go down.

And yeah, you're right about the whole "dark" line.

Galan007
Originally posted by Zentrex
I did see a sentence on wookiepedia sourced to the star wars databanks which said that Thrawn was one of the biggest reasons the Imperials managed to survive as long as they did. Makes sense. After all, Thrawn helped Palpatine map the Unknown Regions for years, and also warned him of the threats that lurked there.

Originally posted by Zentrex
As for the Yuuzhan Vong...I don't know. You think they'd introduce something like that? I mean, there is a precedence for them, but it's an old idea, and kind of a crazy one. I only mention them, because Filoni originally intended to have the Yuuzhan Vong appear in TCW -- he even drew some concept art for a Vong warrior and Scout Ship:
https://i.imgur.com/W3XJssz.jpg
Filoni: "This is a scout ship that was trying to assess the strength of the Republic and who the Jedi were... I started to explore some of the armor... We never got that far."

...Obviously that plot/reveal was never fleshed-out(TCW ended prematurely), but I won't at all be surprised if the Vong appear in canon at some point in the near future -- especially with all this emphasis on the Unknown Regions. /shrug

Originally posted by Zentrex
But...if it is indeed the Yuuzhan Vong, then what kind of secrets does Snoke know which allowed him to hold them back? That could make for a VERY interesting line of story to go down. thumb up

Zentrex
Woah! Now I'm even more curious. I'll keep an eye out for any Yuuzhan Vong related concepts in the new canon.

One Big Mob
I wish Filoni would get the good stuff out at the start of his shows before they get cancelled. Now we begin in a new era to a show that ends prematurely...

Freedon Nadd
I can see Obi-Wan saying: "Fight with me, sons of the Republic! For Coruscant, for Endor, for Kashyyyk."

The Merchant
I think the dark things could simply be the navigation of the UR itself. Extremely dangerous even if mapped out.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
I can see Obi-Wan saying: "Fight with me, sons of the Republic! For Coruscant, for Endor, for Kashyyyk."

can you really?

Rockydonovang
That's some mighty good hype for Snoke:
-> Was able to do shit the imperialmiltary could not with his power
-> Has force knowledge Palps wanted

Galan007
^ thumb up

It was Snoke's knowledge/power that saved the First Order from being obliterated by the "terrors" in the Unknown Regions... But now he's dead. What a twist it would be if some of those terrors started to return upon sensing his death. mmm

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by NewGuy01
can you really?


Ok, we leave Kashyyyk out of this because Mundi.

Galan007
The novel also states that Snoke essentially masterminded Luke's downfall, just to remove him from play:

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Galan007
^ thumb up

It was Snoke's knowledge/power that saved the First Order from being obliterated by the "terrors" in the Unknown Regions... But now he's dead. What a twist it would be if some of those terrors started to return upon sensing his death. mmm
Oh ****, Quanchi's gonna find out about this, isn't he?

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Galan007
The novel also states that Snoke essentially masterminded Luke's downfall, just to remove him from play:
Hold up, both
-> Skywalker dying and
-> Ben Solo triumphing

came true.

Did Snoke plan on dying?

Galan007
The novel certainly leaves that open to interpretation, imo.

Tbh, Snoke's 'death'(still not entirely convinced that he's perma-dead, tbh) may have even been his way of "completing" Kylo's training, as he mentioned at the end of TFA. After all, the recent novelization also made it abundantly clear that Snoke's TP mastery was vastly superior to Kylo's:



...So the notion that Kylo could truly hide something from Snoke does seem a bit...inconsistent. /shrug

Zenwolf
Or the novel is trying to salvage TLJ movie disaster..

DarthPlaguis12
How is it a movie disaster...it made over a billion dollars

Zenwolf

DarthPlaguis12
Not what I asked, asked how it was a disaster

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
Not what I asked, asked how it was a disaster

The film sucked.

Zenwolf

Zentrex

Galan007
Originally posted by Zentrex
But I still want to know what his "agenda" which Serkis kept mentioning was. What is Snoke's "design"? Is that stated in the book? Snoke's 'agenda' was as follows:
-Ben's seduction to the dark side.
-Luke's downfall.
-The death of all Jedi(and with them, the spark of hope they carried.)
-The First Order's rise to complete galactic domination.

*No other machinations were referenced. That's it.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Snoke's reading of Kylo's intentions was precise. If we're assuming that Snoke didn't intend to die, then his "reading of Kylo's intentions" was literally the exact opposite of precise.

At that point, Kylo's only intent was to kill Snoke and have Rey join him. Rotating his own lightsaber in unison with Rey's doesn't change his underlying intention. If Snoke, with his vastly superior TP, couldn't sense that, he deserved to die in such a comical manner, tbh.

Zentrex
Originally posted by Galan007
Snoke's 'agenda' was as follows:
-Ben's seduction to the dark side.
-Luke's downfall.
-The death of all Jedi(and with them, the spark of hope they carried.)
-The First Order's rise to complete galactic domination.

*No other machinations were referenced. That's it.

Why would he want that though? He wanted to seduce Ben TO kill Luke, and once he learned that Luke was not the source of light he'd been sensing, he wanted to kill Rey. Really he just wanted to end the jedi. And I don't know why. He said that the spark of hope they carried makes them "dangerous" but how? If it's because they can destroy the first Order, then why doesn't he just start a new jedi order and get them all on his side? That seems like a much simpler solution to me, honestly.
And I don't know why he cares so much about the First Order.



He looked at the surface of what Kylo felt in that moment. The want to kill the one standing in his way. If he'd searched deeper, he may have found something else, but he didn't.
He also sensed that Kylo was going to attempt a risk shot at killing this person by turning a lightsaber, which is what he did, but he didn't look any deeper to see who EXACTLY Kylo felt those feelings towards

Galan007
Originally posted by Zentrex
Why would he want that though? He wanted to seduce Ben TO kill Luke, and once he learned that Luke was not the source of light he'd been sensing, he wanted to kill Rey. Really he just wanted to end the jedi. And I don't know why. He said that the spark of hope they carried makes them "dangerous" but how? If it's because they can destroy the first Order, then why doesn't he just start a new jedi order and get them all on his side? That seems like a much simpler solution to me, honestly.
And I don't know why he cares so much about the First Order. Because Snoke embraces the dark side FAR more than the light -- he would never associate himself with the Jedi Order just to procure followers(he has more than enough of those as-is.) However, Snoke is also a realist and knows the Jedi still represent hope to the galaxy -- if the Jedi endure, hope itself endures. Furthermore, Snoke also recognizes that where there is hope, there will always be a Resistance/Rebellion in place to oppose him... He did not want *any* opposition(regardless of how meager it may be) to exist. He wanted his rule to be supreme and unquestioned, period.

...Also keep in mind that Snoke witnessed the Empire rise and fall, so he knows full-well how potentially devastating just one well placed Jedi(and the hope he/she naturally breeds) can be.

Originally posted by Zentrex
If he'd searched deeper, he may have found something else, but he didn't. I find it hard to believe that Snoke didn't search deeper. In both films and novels it was made abundantly clear that Snoke always searches/senses Kylo's underlying feelings.

...So if Snoke inextricably wasn't doing so in that moment(when Kylo's underlying feelings were arguably clearer than they have EVER been), and legitimately got merc'd, then he deserved that piss-poor death.

Zentrex
Originally posted by Galan007
Because Snoke embraces the dark side FAR more than the light -- he would never associate himself with the Jedi Order just to procure followers(he has more than enough of those as-is.) However, Snoke is also a realist and knows the Jedi still represent hope to the galaxy -- if the Jedi endure, hope itself endures. Furthermore, Snoke also recognizes that where there is hope, there will always be a Resistance/Rebellion in place to oppose him... He did not want *any* opposition(regardless of how meager it may be) to exist. He wanted his rule to be supreme and unquestioned, period.

...Also keep in mind that Snoke witnessed the Empire rise and fall, so he knows full-well how potentially devastating just one well placed Jedi(and the hope he/she naturally breeds) can be.

I guess. That seems kind of strange, doesn't it? Serkis said that Snoke WAS the Supreme Leader of the First Order, but he had a separate agenda. The book says that that separate agenda was to kill all jedi and light siders because they got in the way of Snoke, which I can only make out to mean the success of the First Order. Now that would mean that his separate agenda was just an extention of the agenda of the First Order.

And there is talk of how he thought a perfect balance between the dark and the light would be the most powerful and that the perfect fight about both the solely dark and solely light. I would have guessed that he had a completely separate agenda for what he wanted the state of the galaxy and the state of the force to be, but I guess not.



Right, that's the point. He let his arrogance and hubris get to him. Like Caesar, or Xerxes. Which were inspirations for the Emperor, who this guy was based off of.

Galan007
Originally posted by Zentrex
I guess. That seems kind of strange, doesn't it? Serkis said that Snoke WAS the Supreme Leader of the First Order, but he had a separate agenda. The book says that that separate agenda was to kill all jedi and light siders because they got in the way of Snoke, which I can only make out to mean the success of the First Order. Now that would mean that his separate agenda was just an extention of the agenda of the First Order.

And there is talk of how he thought a perfect balance between the dark and the light would be the most powerful and that the perfect fight about both the solely dark and solely light. I would have guessed that he had a completely separate agenda for what he wanted the state of the galaxy and the state of the force to be, but I guess not. Remember, most of the First Order didn't even know what Snoke actually looked like -- let alone that he was a force-user. He ruled almost entirely behind-the-scenes, and allowed proxies(like General Hux) be the proverbial face of the organization.

That said, the agenda of the First Order is obliterating the New Republic, and usurping control of the galaxy -- essentially reestablishing a 'bigger and better' Empire... But much like Palpatine, Snoke's separate agenda was also to obliterate all remnants of the Jedi Order, to ensure his rule was complete and absolute with NO opposition. Snoke believed(and rightfully so) that if he destroyed all the Jedi, he effectively destroyed hope itself -- leaving any sort of 'Resistance' completely demoralized/discouraged, and easily crushed.

I'd wager that is also why Snoke would have undoubtedly killed Kylo, IF he had been able to kill Luke and Rey: Kylo represents a potential rival/threat to Snoke(obviously, lol)... And Snoke definitely wasn't a fan of those.

Zentrex
So...he's basically the poor man's Palpatine?

Galan007
Indeed many of Snoke's underlying machinations parallel with Palpatine's. I think Snoke realized that even though Palpatine's stratagem wasn't 'infallible', it was pretty damn close, and ultimately gained him the galactic supremacy he'd sought for decades -- the type of supreme/iron-fisted rule over the galaxy that generations of Sith before him had incessantly lusted after, but never fully realized. Palpatine succeeded where they had failed, and Snoke wanted to succeed where Palpatine had failed.

Snoke essentially built upon the foundations Palpatine had laid for him... Heck, that's likely why he had such loathing for Luke, but such a hard-on for Vader. mmm

Unbowed
Originally posted by Zentrex
So...he's basically the poor man's Palpatine?
No it means he casually waltzed in and hijacked the empire the Banites spent a thousand years creating because he was a stronger Force user and a better schemer. smile

Zentrex
He "walzed in" 25 years after the empire had fallen and the only remaining remnant was a group he considered to be unfit/unlikely rulers who were only followed by people who's follow anything, and then took another 5 years to fail while someone who's literally treated as a JOKE designed the smartest plan the First Order ever had (The creation of Starkiller Base and destruction of the Senate).

As for how much he failed, well...
He first tried to take control of the First Order when it was in its weakest state by far, though he had known of its existence since before Palpatine's death. Succeeded
He tried to use the first order to take control of the galaxy
Failed
He tried to revise history
Failed
He tried to kill the Jedi
Failed
He tried to kill Luke
Failed
He tried to seduce Ben to the dark side
Succeeded
He tried to use Ben to kill Rey
Failed
He tried to remain the supreme leader of the First Order
Failed
He tried to build the perfect Force-user
Failed


Honestly, like Galan said, he was trying to succeed where Palpatine had failed. Instead he failed where Palpatine had succeeded. Palpatine knew that people are power hungry and will try to take your position, and kept that in mind so it wouldn't happen. And it didn't. Snoke thought "oh, Palpatine failed because he didn't realize the power of sentiment" and tried to kill it in Kylo, but forgot that there are OTHER factors which Palpatine took into consideration which he didn't. Palpatine's Empire (The First Galactic Empire) lasted 23 years. Snoke never even managed to CREATE a functioning empire in practice.

What a better schemer he was, wasn't he?

And he even had the ability to basically alter people's minds/ambitions at will. If Palpatine had that kind of power, do you know how much he could have accomplished? He would be in control of all of time and space right now.

Galan007
Aside from some of the other, more esoteric, things he accomplished in the Unknown Regions, Snoke succeeded in saving the Empire from imminent obliteration, and forging it into the First Order(albeit by using the foundations Palpatine had laid for him.) He succeeded in building an immense military, and immense super-weapons to go with it. He succeeded in destroying the New Republic's capital worlds, and sending legions of the FO off to conquer other key worlds... Snoke struck such a death blow to the Republic, in fact, that as of TLJ he was set to completely overthrow the Republic(and moreover the galaxy itself) in a matter of weeks.

...But then, in his hubris, Snoke allowed himself to be merc'd by Kylo(a mediocre apprentice), and essentially handed him the reigns to the FO in its entirety -- a failure so complete that it would have sickened Palpatine to his core, imo.

The_Tempest
The extent of Snoke's military build up is hard to determine. Fry wrote one of the companion books to TLJ as well, incredible Vehicles or some such. It states that the FO owes much to the various shipyards and military installations Sheev seeded throughout the Unknown Regions.

And for what it's worth: Fry himself thinks it would have been a bad idea for Snoke to attract the Emperor's attention.

(Very last question.)

Freedon Nadd
Guys why you talk about the nuncanon? Are you Mouse fans?

Galan007
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The extent of Snoke's military build up is hard to determine. Fry wrote one of the companion books to TLJ as well, incredible Vehicles or some such. It states that the FO owes much to the various shipyards and military installations Sheev seeded throughout the Unknown Regions.

And for what it's worth: Fry himself thinks it would have been a bad idea for Snoke to attract the Emperor's attention.

(Very last question.) Sounds about right. thumb up

I think it goes without saying that if it hadn't been for Palpatine's underlying contingencies and planning, the First Order never would have come into fruition, period. He laid the foundation for pretty much everything Snoke built.

Zentrex
Originally posted by Galan007
Aside from some of the other, more esoteric, things he accomplished in the Unknown Regions

We don't know how that turned out. Maybe he went in with a crew and became the first person to luckily survive (albeit with some marks), and then just by pure coincidence stumbled onto the power which he now has. This is a common plot device.



I thought Rae Sloane did that. All he did was save the First Order from death. Yeah, he helped them survive, but it's not like he was a founding member. He himself says that it turned out the way it did majorly out of coincidence.



Project Resurrection was not created, overseen, or engaged by Snoke, and Starkiller Base was Hux's thing. He didn't even care that it exploded.



When the Republic was weaker than ever. The books go out of their way to show how much the new republic struggled. There was no centralized military, each planet had its own, and there were power vacuums all over the place. It's not like the republic would have been hard to defeat at that time.



This wasn't a one-time mistake. This was part of a larger error. He was wrong about being Kylo's puppeteer. He thought Kylo would do whatever he wanted Kylo to do, be his B!tch, basically. And he was, for the first few years. He did what he was told, didn't think, and said "the Supreme Leader is wise" whenever that fact was questioned. Then, at the end of The Force Awakens, Kylo overcomes this, and makes his own decision for once in his life, asking Rey to join him against Snoke. Snoke doesn't sense this, doesn't do anything about it, and doesn't even realize that Palpatine was very careful to avoid this kind of thing. And the whole idea to recruit Kylo was a mistake from the start, plus the want to kill Luke Skywalker. Literally EVERY aspect of that plan was flawed.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The extent of Snoke's military build up is hard to determine. Fry wrote one of the companion books to TLJ as well, incredible Vehicles or some such. It states that the FO owes much to the various shipyards and military installations Sheev seeded throughout the Unknown Regions.

And for what it's worth: Fry himself thinks it would have been a bad idea for Snoke to attract the Emperor's attention.

(Very last question.)

thumb up

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Zentrex




When the Republic was weaker than ever. The books go out of their way to show how much the new republic struggled. There was no centralized military, each planet had its own, and there were power vacuums all over the place. It's not like the republic would have been hard to defeat at that time.





SOOOO STUPID!

WHY New Republic! Y YOU DO DAT?! Y YOU NO LEARN?!

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The extent of Snoke's military build up is hard to determine. Fry wrote one of the companion books to TLJ as well, incredible Vehicles or some such. It states that the FO owes much to the various shipyards and military installations Sheev seeded throughout the Unknown Regions.

And for what it's worth: Fry himself thinks it would have been a bad idea for Snoke to attract the Emperor's attention.

(Very last question.)
Great find. thumb up

Zentrex
Originally posted by Zenwolf
SOOOO STUPID!

WHY New Republic! Y YOU DO DAT?! Y YOU NO LEARN?!

Mon Mothma made that decision. Kind of out of nowhere, imo

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Zentrex
Mon Mothma made that decision. Kind of out of nowhere, imo

No! No! Bad Mon Mothma! Security is important!

Galan007
Originally posted by Zentrex
We don't know how that turned out. Maybe he went in with a crew and became the first person to luckily survive (albeit with some marks), and then just by pure coincidence stumbled onto the power which he now has. This is a common plot device. I'd rather not speculate. At this point, I only know what we have been told -- and what we were told is that Snoke had learned/mastered knowledge of the force that not even Palpatine was aware of:


Originally posted by Zentrex
All he did was save the First Order from death. Yeah, he helped them survive, but it's not like he was a founding member. There's no need to unjustly diminish Snoke. It's clear that without his knowledge/power, the Empire(and First Order) would have never survived in the Unknown Regions, period:


So far as we know, Snoke's greatest(arguably only) success was saving the Imperial remnants from imminent obliteration, and guiding/building it into the immensity that the First Order eventually became... Still though, he owes much of the aforementioned prosperity to the foresight/contingencies of Palpatine -- which I stated in my very first post.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Starkiller Base was Hux's thing. He didn't even care that it exploded. Why would he care? The weapon did everything he needed it to do in that moment: it destroyed the capital worlds of the New Republic, and struck a death-blow to the galaxy itself(leaving it ripe to be conquered in a matter of weeks, as of TLJ.)

Moreover, there were suggestions that Snoke might be hiding even more sinister weapons than Starkiller Base in the Unknown Regions:


Originally posted by Zentrex
When the Republic was weaker than ever. And that changes what I said... How? You seem to be under the impression that I am trying to give Snoke undo credit here, lol... I can assure you, that is definitely not the case.

I will, however, give credit where credit is due -- and Snoke does deserve *some* credit.

Originally posted by Zentrex
This wasn't a one-time mistake. This was part of a larger error. He was wrong about being Kylo's puppeteer. He thought Kylo would do whatever he wanted Kylo to do, be his B!tch, basically. And he was, for the first few years. He did what he was told, didn't think, and said "the Supreme Leader is wise" whenever that fact was questioned. Then, at the end of The Force Awakens, Kylo overcomes this, and makes his own decision for once in his life, asking Rey to join him against Snoke. Snoke doesn't sense this, doesn't do anything about it, and doesn't even realize that Palpatine was very careful to avoid this kind of thing. And the whole idea to recruit Kylo was a mistake from the start, plus the want to kill Luke Skywalker. Literally EVERY aspect of that plan was flawed. Seems like you're typing a lot just to essentially agree with points I already made, lol. Kylo was indeed Snoke's greatest failure... Not just because Snoke failed to foresee Kylo's betrayal, but because Kylo himself was a mediocre apprentice at best.

Zentrex
Originally posted by Zenwolf
No! No! Bad Mon Mothma! Security is important!

What happened to you ?

Originally posted by Galan007
I'd rather not speculate. At this point, I only know what we have been told -- and what we were told is that Snoke had learned/mastered knowledge of the force that not even Palpatine was aware of:


There's no need to unjustly diminish Snoke. It's clear that without his knowledge/power, the Empire(and First Order) would have never survived in the Unknown Regions, period:


So far as we know, Snoke's greatest(arguably only) success was saving the Imperial remnants from imminent obliteration, and guiding/building it into the immensity that the First Order eventually became... Still though, he owes much of the aforementioned prosperity to the foresight/contingencies of Palpatine -- which I stated in my very first post.

Why would he care? The weapon did everything he needed it to do in that moment: it destroyed the capital worlds of the New Republic, and struck a death-blow to the galaxy itself(leaving it ripe to be conquered in a matter of weeks, as of TLJ.)

Moreover, there were suggestions that Snoke might be hiding even more sinister weapons than Starkiller Base in the Unknown Regions:


And that changes what I said... How? You seem to be under the impression that I am trying to give Snoke undo credit here, lol... I can assure you, that is definitely not the case.

I will, however, give credit where credit is due -- and Snoke does deserve *some* credit.

Seems like you're typing a lot just to essentially agree with points I already made, lol. Kylo was indeed Snoke's greatest failure... Not just because Snoke failed to foresee Kylo's betrayal, but because Kylo himself was a mediocre apprentice at best.

Oh. Well, yeah. He did save the first order from death. Doesn't not make him a failure in my eyes, but whatever. He IS powerful, knowledgable, influencial, and capable.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Zentrex
What happened to you ?


Hm? What ya mean?

Lord Stark
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The extent of Snoke's military build up is hard to determine. Fry wrote one of the companion books to TLJ as well, incredible Vehicles or some such. It states that the FO owes much to the various shipyards and military installations Sheev seeded throughout the Unknown Regions.

And for what it's worth: Fry himself thinks it would have been a bad idea for Snoke to attract the Emperor's attention.

(Very last question.)

Interesting concept, Snoke being the Saruman to Sidious' Sauron.

Freedon Nadd
Don't you dare compare Wankatine to Sauron.

Zentrex
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Hm? What ya mean?

You're talking like Jar Jar. I don't remember you being like this.

Trocity
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Don't you dare compare Wankatine to Sauron.

Yeah don't compare a loser like Sauron to The Emperor.

Zentrex
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Interesting concept, Snoke being the Saruman to Sidious' Sauron.

That's an interesting way to think about it. I can see what you mean by that.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Zentrex
You're talking like Jar Jar. I don't remember you being like this.

Ah, sorry but I just really, REALLY dislike what the new Canon did in regards to the New Republic and Jedi Order. It just feels so very wrong, things should move forward, not back.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Trocity
Yeah don't compare a loser like Sauron to The Emperor.

Sauron is better than Palps. Sorry.

Rockydonovang
A necessary sacrifice. I'm just concerned what abrams is going to do. He shouldn't be allowed near sw with a ten foot cross guard lightsaber.

Zentrex
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Ah, sorry but I just really, REALLY dislike what the new Canon did in regards to the New Republic and Jedi Order. It just feels so very wrong, things should move forward, not back.
Yeah, I agree, actually.

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