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I've waited a long time for this...

They should have done it with Sharad Kahn not Snoke.

Excellent thread. Not sure I agree with all your interpretations of everything, but that's to be expected. Awesome read.

Great thread.

I've always maintained that Krayt had a stronger performance than Luke, imo it's evident from the text, but people can't stomach it. They can't accept that someone who isn't Sidious can just come out of nowhere and just overshadow Luke, who was supposed to(arguably) be the most powerful user in the saga.

While it's true that Krayt was shoehorned into the "Dark Man" role and into the FOTJ series, the facts are the facts. I wouldn't wipe my ass with most EU material, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I suspect that if Disney hadn't bought Star Wars, further EU material from that era would have probably had Krayt's order being somehow responsible for Luke's eventual death.

Between Krayt being the Dark Man that haunted Luke's dreams, Luke coming back as a spirit a century later to help Cade against Krayt, and other EU material(the Jaden Korr books) that had Krayt's Order scheming against Luke's Order, I think the story was leaning in that direction.

This seems to mean that Krayt's Force drain was hurting Krayt as much as it was hurting Luke, not that it was hurting Krayt as much as Abeloth's attack was hurting Luke. So they both have to deal with it, but then Luke also has to restrain Abeloth.

Likewise, the "who gets up first" part at the end doesn't have anything to do with their respective power levels - it's pretty obvious from both Mara and Luke's perspectives that Luke's hesitation was psychological.

Nice strawman. I didn't say Krayt was hurt as much as Abeloth was hurting Luke (??). I said Krayt was simultaneously wounding and healing himself.

Anyway, sure, if all Krayt had to do was drain Abeloth and Luke while Luke held her in place, Krayt would have the easier job, because all he is doing is attacking and gaining strength while the other two are on the receiving end. But that's not the case: Krayt was screaming in agony from having Abeloth's Essence inside him, which means that Krayt was being hurt just as much as Luke by the ordeal, and Abeloth most of all.

And no, injuries that drove Luke to the brink of death would kill most everyone else. His Essence is more powerful/plentiful than other beings due to him being more powerful, so for him and Krayt to receive identical wounds and both be on the brink of death after, their Essences must be comparable by necessity.

Originally posted by ILS
Anyway, sure, if all Krayt had to do was drain Abeloth and Luke while Luke held her in place, Krayt would have the easier job, because all he is doing is attacking and gaining strength while the other two are on the receiving end. But that's not the case: Krayt was screaming in agony from having Abeloth's Essence inside him, which means that Krayt was being hurt just as much as Luke by the ordeal, and Abeloth most of all.

That's already taken into account by the observation that Krayt's drain was hurting both himself and Luke equally. The comparison is:

Luke: Abeloth's physical resistance + drain
Krayt: drain



Not if they received similar wounds from different intensity attacks, unless if you have evidence that Force essences have the same initial damage mitigation and so only can be compared from their injury soak.

Apocalypse Krayt intuitively seems impressive, an intuition that is probably accurate, but it's difficult to come up with a really concrete line of comparison besides vaguely that he can injure Abeloth and take hits from her when fighting alongside Luke.

And the claim that this level of pseudo-parity with Luke isn't within Caedus's realm is just wrong. Jacen, on multiple occasions, appears in combat situations with Luke that if taken in isolation would merit similar comparisons - indeed, he's even fooled Luke with illusions! Read their fight in Inferno and then conclude that the general mood doesn't imply that a distribution of contributions vs. Abeloth between them similar to Luke/Krayt wouldn't have been plausible. You could even get a similar hint from far weaker people in LotF/FotJ like Saba. Yes, Luke dominates Caedus with the chair thing, but evidently can't do it against a prepared Caedus in a fight - and regardless, the fact that Caedus can seem similar to Luke when sort of vaguely inferring but fail against him in a direct fight is a point against this line of comparison in the first place.

Uh, yeah.

Luke holds Abeloth + is drained slightly

Krayt drains Abeloth + screams in agony from her Essence

Seems even enough to me.

Not sure why you're making the rest complicated. The first thing Abeloth does is blow a hole through Krayt and Luke's chests with the same attack, and the final main attack is her driving her tentacles deep inside both of them to tear them apart. That Krayt is "intuitively" impressive is probably something to do with it being abundantly obvious.

Edited in re: Caedus above.

Originally posted by ILS
Krayt drains Abeloth + screams in agony from her Essence

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I thought that the "agony from her Essence" was because of the drain, and so Luke's observation that he and Krayt were suffering equally from Krayt's attack was valid, and IDK why you're acting like Luke was drained "slightly" and Krayt was hurt more. That's why I initially pointed this out, and given that you accused me of strawmanning I'm assuming that you agree.

So that leads us to the clear conclusion that Luke had to deal with two things, and Krayt only had to deal with one.

E.g. if draining is 10 and holding Abeloth is 10, Luke had to deal with 20 points and Krayt had to deal with 10. You seem to be double-jeopardying things for Krayt.

Additionally, the "he's suffering just as much" begins to happen partway throughout Krayt's draining, but initially Luke observes that he is growing stronger.



Yes, but Luke also had to do lots of other stuff that Krayt didn't (see above).

Wasn't that a fight of wills?