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Aside from the comments from Lucas and Gillard are there any canon quotes that mention Sidious' prowess with a lightsaber?

thx in advance

McCallum said he's better than any Jedi.

"Sidious can appear frail and slow, but the Sith Lord should not be underestimated -- he is a master of all forms of lightsaber combat.":
https://i.imgur.com/EPW1dCu.jpg
-TCW: Episode Guide

Awesome!

what about the double bladed lightsaber? is it logical to assume that Sidious had mastery over it as well?

"Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style." -NG

Gillard said he's a master of every weapon. Also, in Canon Niman is associated with the saberstaff and since Sidious mentored Maul and knows all forms, he should be a saberstaff master too.

every weapon? Really? Light-whips, blasters, vibro-blades, bounty-hunter arsenal?

Also him being a master of every form in itself doesn't mean much. Cin Drallig was too, but people lowball him like all hell.

Drallig's gained respect in recent years, tbh.

Originally posted by Sheev
Awesome!

what about the double bladed lightsaber? is it logical to assume that Sidious had mastery over it as well? Yes.

He'd likely never use one, though:
https://i.imgur.com/3Wjg9gZ.jpg

My god, what the hell is with these dudes?

It's clearly obvious that Palpatine was always more of a Force user rather than a lightsabre duelist.

All these quotes always made me ask, when did Sidious find the time to do so many things? Become a master of every weapon and every style, develop his Force abilties, train his apprentices, hone his political skill, become a very erudite man, execute his various schemes, all while being the most prominent politician in the Galaxy.

He must have read the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People.

Addendum: yes, Sidious took Plagueis' advice to heart.

"I think we've got time for a few more exercises," Skywalker decided, turning back to face her. "That technique of yours is very interesting - Obi-Wan never taught me anything about using the tip of the lightsaber blade."

"The Emperor's philosophy was to use everything you had available," Mara said.

The Last Command

It'd make sense he'd master double-bladed lightsabers too, since he stored blueprints in his holocron.

Originally posted by Unbowed
All these quotes always made me ask, when did Sidious find the time to do so many things? Become a master of every weapon and every style, develop his Force abilties, train his apprentices, hone his political skill, become a very erudite man, execute his various schemes, all while being the most prominent politician in the Galaxy.

He must have read the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. yeah lol. I wish I was that efficient

Originally posted by Unbowed
All these quotes always made me ask, when did Sidious find the time to do so many things? Become a master of every weapon and every style, develop his Force abilties, train his apprentices, hone his political skill, become a very erudite man, execute his various schemes, all while being the most prominent politician in the Galaxy.

He must have read the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People.

He is a defectous Shinobi from Leaf Hidden Village obviously.

1. It's not like Palpatine followed his advice
2. It is said he needed to learn to recognize them - not to use them.
But then again, Luceno's Sidious wank knows no boundaries.

Originally posted by Unbowed
All these quotes always made me ask, when did Sidious find the time to do so many things? Become a master of every weapon and every style, develop his Force abilties, train his apprentices, hone his political skill, become a very erudite man, execute his various schemes, all while being the most prominent politician in the Galaxy.

He must have read the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People.

Well, it was said that Palpatine never slept and worked for days and days on end. I know it seems hard to believe, that even if he had all 24 hours of the day to work at top efficiency, that he'd manage to get all this done, but you have to suspend disbelief. The plot requires him to be that powerful, that smart, that much in control of the situation, and that difficult to defeat.

He had over three decades as Plagueis' apprentice before he became the Chancellor. I'd figure he'd find time.

Originally posted by Kurk
every weapon? Really? Light-whips, blasters, vibro-blades, bounty-hunter arsenal?

Also him being a master of every form in itself doesn't mean much. Cin Drallig was too, but people lowball him like all hell.

Lowballed. With the Knightfall Anakin respect going up, Drallig doesn't look so pathetic. The dude was mentioned in the same breath as Yoda, Mace, and Kenobi by Dooku.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
It's clearly obvious that Palpatine was always more of a Force user rather than a lightsabre duelist. Which only makes his Force strength more impressive.

And his lightsaber dueling skill is enough to toy with and fvck up Maul and Savage with ease.

Yeah - because he was faster than them.

You call a fighter - good or bad - when they fight on equal 'ground'.

All these sources love to spank his butt - when it's not even in Palpatine's character to be an absolute weapon master. He even makes this remark by saying that Sith outgrew past the use of lightsabres.

I don't know what's worse: Palpatine's illogical wank or Valkorion's excessive wank?

But it IS in Palpatine's characters to be the master of everything and completely unbeatable.

No. It is in Palpatine's character to be a brilliant manipulator and Force user.

Is there anything Palpatine isn't a master of?

Power of Friendship.

https://youtu.be/2cjAOJ5qRWA

His 'skills' are low, his effectiveness is high.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Yeah - because he was faster than them.

You call a fighter - good or bad - when they fight on equal 'ground'. Yoda fight?

By the time Yoda fought Sidious - their ability to wield the Force was severely weakened.
''sides that; that's lightsabre skills - not universal combat skills. That's the main point about Sidious' wank.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
By the time Yoda fought Sidious - their ability to wield the Force was severely weakened.
''sides that; that's lightsabre skills - not universal combat skills. That's the main point about Sidious' wank.

His lightsaber skills were what you were replying to though

Originally posted by Geistalt
Which only makes his Force strength more impressive.

And his lightsaber dueling skill is enough to toy with and fvck up Maul and Savage with ease.

Yoda was as fast or faster than Palpatine. That seems like a good Freedon Nadd approved way to judge his saber skills.

I was talking about him being a Mary Sue in the universal arts of combat. He may, well know all lightsabre forms, but that doesn't mean (he should) know/s different types of combat(plus gun skills)



Props to Yoda for fighting on 'equal ground' with Palpatine despite his Force abilities were being hindered.
But - as far as I recall - the lightsabre contest was in Yoda's favor because Sidious quickly changed his lightsabre attacks to Force attacks.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
My god, what the hell is with these dudes?

It's clearly obvious that Palpatine was always more of a Force user rather than a lightsabre duelist. Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
He is a defectous Shinobi from Leaf Hidden Village obviously. Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
1. It's not like Palpatine followed his advice
2. It is said he needed to learn to recognize them - not to use them.
But then again, Luceno's Sidious wank knows no boundaries. Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Yeah - because he was faster than them.

You call a fighter - good or bad - when they fight on equal 'ground'. Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
All these sources love to spank his butt - when it's not even in Palpatine's character to be an absolute weapon master. He even makes this remark by saying that Sith outgrew past the use of lightsabres.

I don't know what's worse: Palpatine's illogical wank or Valkorion's excessive wank? Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
No. It is in Palpatine's character to be a brilliant manipulator and Force user.


There's all your posts in this thread up to your reply to me besides the video. You refer to lightsaber skill numerous times.

As well as the direct chain
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
My god, what the hell is with these dudes?

It's clearly obvious that Palpatine was always more of a Force user rather than a lightsabre duelist. Originally posted by Geistalt
Which only makes his Force strength more impressive.

And his lightsaber dueling skill is enough to toy with and fvck up Maul and Savage with ease. Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Yeah - because he was faster than them.

You call a fighter - good or bad - when they fight on equal 'ground'.


That is purely talking of lightsaber skills. Don't move the goalposts.

Basically the Savage Maul fight doesn't count as skill because he was faster than them. And the Yoda fight doesn't count as skill because in your mind Yoda was weakened (while still being faster) and Yoda was winning?

Which still leaves us with Sidious fighting well for a long period of time against Yoda (a longer lightsaber fight than a lot of Star Wars battles for that matter). A faster combatant. So, how is this not a great display of skill?

Not to mention they had a pretty extensive lightsaber duel in an area that heavily favored Yoda. You would need some good hard facts to prove Yoda was weakened in a way to impact his dueling. You would then need to explain how him being weakened makes his speed advantage any less. So Yoda is slower than he normally is (in your mind), how exactly does that take away from the fact that he is still as fast or faster than Sheev?
And you'd need to explain how his speed in lightsabers isn't actually his lightsaber skill as well. What's next, Yoda isn't actually very skilled because he's faster than everyone? That is his fighting style.

Fact is Palpatine's skill with a saber allowed him to combat a faster opponent. Yoda could have been suffering from Sickle Cell and as long as he's still faster than Palpatine, that is the relevant part. You tried to take away Sidious' showing because he was faster than the Maul sisters. Yet you still do everything in your crabby little claws to make Sidious look bad when he himself does incredibly well against a faster opponent. Can you see the issue here?

1. It was explained in ROTS novel and throughout a few other Legends materials - that Sidious was hindering the Jedi's abilities.

2. Force speed doesn't mean lightsabre skills. Otherwise Flash is a greater martial arts fighter than Bruce Lee because he is faster.
3. Yoda was not faster than Palpatine in ROTS. In fact they were evenly matched.
4. When Palpatine saw he couldn't win against Yoda in lightsabre combat - he resorted to his use of Force abilities.
5. No. It wasn't a draw in lightsabre combat. Otherwise he wouldn't switch to Force abilities.
6. Palpatine was 'barely' surviving in that match. It's impressive that he held his own against Yoda - however that doesn't credit him with the title of GOAT. Especially when that duel was pretty short.

Originally posted by Kurk
Is there anything Palpatine isn't a master of?


Pussy

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
1. It was explained in ROTS novel and throughout a few other Legends materials - that Sidious was hindering the Jedi's abilities.

2. Force speed doesn't mean lightsabre skills. Otherwise Flash is a greater martial arts fighter than Bruce Lee because he is faster.
3. Yoda was not faster than Palpatine in ROTS. In fact they were evenly matched.
4. When Palpatine saw he couldn't win against Yoda in lightsabre combat - he resorted to his use of Force abilities.
5. No. It wasn't a draw in lightsabre combat. Otherwise he wouldn't switch to Force abilities.
6. Palpatine was 'barely' surviving in that match. It's impressive that he held his own against Yoda - however that doesn't credit him with the title of GOAT. Especially when that duel was pretty short. Post the statements that show he was hindering the combat abilities of the Jedi in a way that weakened someone like Yoda. Because the implications of this are way worse than simply stalemating a weakened Yoda.

"He wasn't equal to Yoda in skill, he was simply depowering all the Jedi in the Order." Oh Jeeze, how bad does that look for Sidious!


And that would be a relevant discussion if you could divorce his speed from his skill. Otherwise you have no base at all to judge him off of. It's the exact same thing as arguing that Yoda isn't skilled because of how fast he is. They are skilled enough to be near perfect in lightsaber skills with this "increased" speed. And they are skilled enough to have a lightsaber duel with each other as well.
But yes, contrast a real life person with Flash. That's a fair comparison. Nevermind the fact that Flash can be as skilled as they want him to be, but you're using someone like Flash who you presume to be sloppy as a basis. Can you point out examples of Sidious' lack of skill and technique to help your comparison? Can you point out anything that would lead us to believe Sheev is sloppy like you assume Flash is?
Though that comparison again doesn't exactly help. Sheev isn't skilled, he's just like Flash... way faster than his opponents and thus he can beat them in a duel... ouch.
Plus a lot of Bruce Lee's hype is exactly from his speed. Most of it I'd wager. He's not any more "skilled" than any professional boxer, he's just faster than a lot. But you using him as a pinnacle for skill is cute. Or do we flow back into speed and skill complementing and furthering each other?


You mean the tiny guy that was flipping around at high speeds while Palpatine was fairly "planted" in comparison isn't faster? He was jumping between lightsaber swings... Very well though, all that does is lead us back into the main point; they are close in skill level. You calling them evenly matched doesn't help. If they were the same speed, then how was Sidious able to fight on par with Yoda on a tiny podium? How is this not a skill showing? By all means this fits your description of what skill should look like. We took the speed out of the equation and Sidious can more than hold his own with Yoda. Why is this not a skill showing?


Yes, why on Earth would Sidious use all of his abilities in a fight to the death? You said it yourself that he's more of a force wielder than a duelist. Ask yourself why a force wielder would want to distance himself from a lightsaber battle on a tiny podium when he could safely hurl large heavy objects from afar. Even if he was wearing Yoda down and winning the lightsaber duel, the risk is still greater than simply chucking objects at him.

I never said it was a draw, though what we've seen on screen and the novel certainly do paint it as such, but I recall some statement where it said he was disarmed, which I never looked for the source (in the Dark Horse Comics, later published by Marvel, Sidious was shown blasting Yoda off the platform while still having his own saber). All I said is he did incredibly well in an unfavorable position. Something that following your logic in this thread should be something you would applaud.

And that duel was an all out 40 second duel where neither looked better and some happened off panel. Which is more than what we can say of most onscreen duels. I bet the attacks lobbed in that instance number in the top 15 of lightsaber duel attacks in animation and movies. It was enough to gain a measure of skill.

So why isn't Sids vs Yoda a great skill showing? Does Sidious even have any good showings to you? What is his most impressive skill showing in your opinion?

{edit}

wrong thread.

We know.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Post the statements that show he was hindering the combat abilities of the Jedi in a way that weakened someone like Yoda. Because the implications of this are way worse than simply stalemating a weakened Yoda.

"He wasn't equal to Yoda in skill, he was simply depowering all the Jedi in the Order." Oh Jeeze, how bad does that look for Sidious!


And that would be a relevant discussion if you could divorce his speed from his skill. Otherwise you have no base at all to judge him off of. It's the exact same thing as arguing that Yoda isn't skilled because of how fast he is. They are skilled enough to be near perfect in lightsaber skills with this "increased" speed. And they are skilled enough to have a lightsaber duel with each other as well.
But yes, contrast a real life person with Flash. That's a fair comparison. Nevermind the fact that Flash can be as skilled as they want him to be, but you're using someone like Flash who you presume to be sloppy as a basis. Can you point out examples of Sidious' lack of skill and technique to help your comparison? Can you point out anything that would lead us to believe Sheev is sloppy like you assume Flash is?
Though that comparison again doesn't exactly help. Sheev isn't skilled, he's just like Flash... way faster than his opponents and thus he can beat them in a duel... ouch.
Plus a lot of Bruce Lee's hype is exactly from his speed. Most of it I'd wager. He's not any more "skilled" than any professional boxer, he's just faster than a lot. But you using him as a pinnacle for skill is cute. Or do we flow back into speed and skill complementing and furthering each other?


You mean the tiny guy that was flipping around at high speeds while Palpatine was fairly "planted" in comparison isn't faster? He was jumping between lightsaber swings... Very well though, all that does is lead us back into the main point; they are close in skill level. You calling them evenly matched doesn't help. If they were the same speed, then how was Sidious able to fight on par with Yoda on a tiny podium? How is this not a skill showing? By all means this fits your description of what skill should look like. We took the speed out of the equation and Sidious can more than hold his own with Yoda. Why is this not a skill showing?


Yes, why on Earth would Sidious use all of his abilities in a fight to the death? You said it yourself that he's more of a force wielder than a duelist. Ask yourself why a force wielder would want to distance himself from a lightsaber battle on a tiny podium when he could safely hurl large heavy objects from afar. Even if he was wearing Yoda down and winning the lightsaber duel, the risk is still greater than simply chucking objects at him.

I never said it was a draw, though what we've seen on screen and the novel certainly do paint it as such, but I recall some statement where it said he was disarmed, which I never looked for the source (in the Dark Horse Comics, later published by Marvel, Sidious was shown blasting Yoda off the platform while still having his own saber). All I said is he did incredibly well in an unfavorable position. Something that following your logic in this thread should be something you would applaud.

And that duel was an all out 40 second duel where neither looked better and some happened off panel. Which is more than what we can say of most onscreen duels. I bet the attacks lobbed in that instance number in the top 15 of lightsaber duel attacks in animation and movies. It was enough to gain a measure of skill.

So why isn't Sids vs Yoda a great skill showing? Does Sidious even have any good showings to you? What is his most impressive skill showing in your opinion?

And, yet he loses in lightsabre combat against a newbie Dark Empire Luke Skywalker on his flagship who barely defeated Vader because Vader was holding back.
Bruce Lee was a popular example.
Main point was that one who is faster than another doesn't prove they have superior combat skills.

Palpatine:
-loses against Windu
-barely competes with Yoda
-loses against Luke

Heck, even in TFU - when you encounter Palpatine - he is only making use of his Force abilities.

If anything - most Legends material depicts him as a Force wielder and not lightsabre combat expert - and rightfully so.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
And, yet he loses in lightsabre combat against a newbie Dark Empire Luke Skywalker on his flagship who barely defeated Vader because Vader was holding back.
Bruce Lee was a popular example.
Main point was that one who is faster than another doesn't prove they have superior combat skills.

Palpatine:
-loses against Windu
-barely competes with Yoda
-loses against Luke

Heck, even in TFU - when you encounter Palpatine - he is only making use of his Force abilities. Dark Empire was 6 years after ROTJ. Within 4 years of training he became more powerful than Vader. Imagine another 6.
They even remarked on how powerful both became. And he beat Luke in the first lightsaber fight as well.

It's a stupid point though. You can't divorce the concepts and you won't even pretend to address it in examples like Yoda. The reason you're taking away his skill against Maul and Savage is exactly the reason to attribute to his skill against a faster opponent in Yoda. But you hate Sidious so much you can't even form a coherent thought or argument.
If Sidious is only skilled because of his speed (which he isn't), then that's a part of his dueling skill. Unless you want to argue he's a 9 in dueling in pure skill and that isn't accounting for his overwhelming speed... well, that leads to a very slippery slope for you I can imagine.

Heavily amped Windu who is in no way a bad feat. He also killed 3 Jedi Masters nigh instantly too
I don't get where this "barely" shit comes from. Palpatine did really well against Yoda.
And Luke is Luke.

Because he didn't need a lightsaber to fight him obviously. Though he did easily catch him trying to cheapshot him in the DS ending.
Though not sure you want to bring up TFU. Sure you think it helps you here, but I'm sure you'd hate it being brought up in another thread. Palpatine tanks an all out force release from someone who could bring down a Star Destroyer at lesser levels? And him not using his lightsaber is the bad looking part?

Sidious is a master of murder. It's only logical that he'd master every tactic/device conducive to murder.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Dark Empire was 6 years after ROTJ. Within 4 years of training he became more powerful than Vader. Imagine another 6.
They even remarked on how powerful both became. And he beat Luke in the first lightsaber fight as well.

It's a stupid point though. You can't divorce the concepts and you won't even pretend to address it in examples like Yoda. The reason you're taking away his skill against Maul and Savage is exactly the reason to attribute to his skill against a faster opponent in Yoda. But you hate Sidious so much you can't even form a coherent thought or argument.
If Sidious is only skilled because of his speed (which he isn't), then that's a part of his dueling skill. Unless you want to argue he's a 9 in dueling in pure skill and that isn't accounting for his overwhelming speed... well, that leads to a very slippery slope for you I can imagine.

Heavily amped Windu who is in no way a bad feat. He also killed 3 Jedi Masters nigh instantly too
I don't get where this "barely" shit comes from. Palpatine did really well against Yoda.
And Luke is Luke.

Because he didn't need a lightsaber to fight him obviously. Though he did easily catch him trying to cheapshot him in the DS ending.
Though not sure you want to bring up TFU. Sure you think it helps you here, but I'm sure you'd hate it being brought up in another thread. Palpatine tanks an all out force release from someone who could bring down a Star Destroyer at lesser levels? And him not using his lightsaber is the bad looking part?

1. Umm - what did Luke do to become more powerful? I hope you do realize that makes reference to his 'disciplined' personna. He is no longer the rookiee he once used to be. Now he understands more about the Force's nature and the tenets of the Jedi philosophy. It's not like he fought in countless wars to gain a vast amount of combat experience(during Dark Empire events)

2. When did Palpatine beat Luke in lightsabre combat in Dark Empire?

3. He killed those 3 JMs because he was faster. Further proving my point.

4. Marek didn't bring down the Star Destroyer. He merely re-directed a fallen one - and it severely exhausted him.
And parrying one lightsabre strike doesn't necessarily mean he is a godly lightsabre duelist.

Apparently - you can't understand we are talking about his martial arts skills and not his power in the Force.

5. It's a fact that during the PT - the Jedi's ability to use the Force was massively hindered.

I am not denying his massive power in the Force. But he wins every duel with a lightsabre because of his superior Force power which greatly enhances his combat skills against enemies less powerful in the Force.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
1. Umm - what did Luke do to become more powerful? I hope you do realize that makes reference to his 'disciplined' personna. He is no longer the rookiee he once used to be. Now he understands more about the Force's nature and the tenets of the Jedi philosophy. It's not like he fought in countless wars to gain a vast amount of combat experience(during Dark Empire events)

2. When did Palpatine beat Luke in lightsabre combat in Dark Empire?

3. He killed those 3 JMs because he was faster. Further proving my point.

4. Marek didn't bring down the Star Destroyer. He merely re-directed a fallen one - and it severely exhausted him.
And parrying one lightsabre strike doesn't necessarily mean he is a godly lightsabre duelist.

Apparently - you can't understand we are talking about his martial arts skills and not his power in the Force.

5. It's a fact that during the PT - the Jedi's ability to use the Force was massively hindered.

I am not denying his massive power in the Force. But he wins every duel with a lightsabre because of his superior Force power which greatly enhances his combat skills against enemies less powerful in the Force. Did you even read Dark Empire? They were in the midst of a Civil War and it was after the events of Thrawn as well.
And it doesn't matter how many wars he fought in even if he didn't. He had 6 years to get more powerful. Seriously, the first issue goes in depth of the events of the galaxy, Luke's power increase, and even has Luke blocking an AT-AT blaster bolt pretty easily and destroying it.

In Dark Empire
Specifically issue 5. If you're going to bring up the series, at least have the foggiest idea of what went on in it.

Which is a skill that he uses in his lightsaber dueling. Why you would even respond to me without addressing that you can't take his speed away in a duel is perplexing. What's next, Obi Wan isn't good because his form is nigh impregnable? Anakin was actually shit when he entered his zone because you have to take that away from him? Mace sucks because of Vapaad amping him (which you have no problem bringing up against Sheev yet his speed that he used against Mace and everyone else is an issue, not the one off amp for Mace).


He did though. Again you speak of things you have no understanding on at all.
3nJ-B7xTAyo


I never said blocking one strike made him a dueling God. I said he used it once in the Dark Side ending because he didn't need it for the actual fight.

I am fully aware we're talking about MA skills. The issue is is that you're bringing up feats from TFU when that game made him tank the entirety of Starkiller's power point blank. Then you're going to go into another thread and go "Sidious is much more of a political lord than a force user. Heck he probably doesn't even have good feats." Because you have a very worm like personality. You will use anything at all to try and downplay the character even when you hold nothing in your hands. You have nothing, only a vague understanding of the events that transpired and you grasp at anything to try and convince yourself of it.
You're like a Diet Carver. Both in attempt and logic.


Prove they were hindered in a way that effected their combat ability. You keep saying it, and I keep asking. If I haven't dealt with so many Freedon Nadds on the forums I'd assume you were trolling, but that'd be giving you the benefit of the doubt and you'd probably twist the meaning of that too.



So he uses his force power to influence his dueling skills? How unlike force users
Let's take a look at what Galan posted here on Yoda's form in Ataru (because I'm too lazy to find another)
Originally posted by Galan007
Yes.

http://i.imgur.com/mEO2Vjom.jpg
-Star Wars: AEYNTK


There's also this if you regard it as canon:
https://i.imgur.com/q78Ge1Y.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Lzow3kG.jpg
-TCW #6.5



I don't even indulge in that many Star Wars things. How are you wrong at every stage here?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Did you even read Dark Empire? They were in the midst of a Civil War and it was after the events of Thrawn as well.
And it doesn't matter how many wars he fought in even if he didn't. He had 6 years to get more powerful. Seriously, the first issue goes in depth of the events of the galaxy, Luke's power increase, and even has Luke blocking an AT-AT blaster bolt pretty easily and destroying it.

In Dark Empire
Specifically issue 5. If you're going to bring up the series, at least have the foggiest idea of what went on in it.

Which is a skill that he uses in his lightsaber dueling. Why you would even respond to me without addressing that you can't take his speed away in a duel is perplexing. What's next, Obi Wan isn't good because his form is nigh impregnable? Anakin was actually shit when he entered his zone because you have to take that away from him? Mace sucks because of Vapaad amping him (which you have no problem bringing up against Sheev yet his speed that he used against Mace and everyone else is an issue, not the one off amp for Mace).


He did though. Again you speak of things you have no understanding on at all.
3nJ-B7xTAyo


I never said blocking one strike made him a dueling God. I said he used it once in the Dark Side ending because he didn't need it for the actual fight.

I am fully aware we're talking about MA skills. The issue is is that you're bringing up feats from TFU when that game made him tank the entirety of Starkiller's power point blank. Then you're going to go into another thread and go "Sidious is much more of a political lord than a force user. Heck he probably doesn't even have good feats." Because you have a very worm like personality. You will use anything at all to try and downplay the character even when you hold nothing in your hands. You have nothing, only a vague understanding of the events that transpired and you grasp at anything to try and convince yourself of it.
You're like a Diet Carver. Both in attempt and logic.


Prove they were hindered in a way that effected their combat ability. You keep saying it, and I keep asking. If I haven't dealt with so many Freedon Nadds on the forums I'd assume you were trolling, but that'd be giving you the benefit of the doubt and you'd probably twist the meaning of that too.



So he uses his force power to influence his dueling skills? How unlike force users
Let's take a look at what Galan posted here on Yoda's form in Ataru (because I'm too lazy to find another)




I don't even indulge in that many Star Wars things. How are you wrong at every stage here?




I am fully aware it is six years after Heir to the Empire.

Also, you do realize that when I was talking about combat experience I was referring to facing opponents in lightsabre combat - not slaying droids or thugs?

ASFAIK - pre-Dark Empire Luke Skywalker's (solo)duels were only with Teneniel Djo and Lumiya. And in both instances - he always got owned by these two. It was until he got familiar with Lumiya's 'lightsabre' combat style that he finally managed to slay her.



Yes - it does matter?



Yes - that was referring to his Force mastery - which has nothing to do with his lightsabre skills.
IIRC, and I do, Luke was never trained in the art of lightsabre combat - neither by Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda.



Of course I do know. It's the Duel on Byss where Luke confronts Palpatine in combat and then Palpatine inhabits a new body and 'defeats' Luke.
It's no wonder - though. Byss is a Dark Side nexus and Luke's light side abilities were massively hindered. More props to Luke for resisting for a while to fight Palpatine on one of the most powerful Dark Side nexi.

Of course, when I said that Luke owned Palpatine I was talking about the 6th issue during the Battle of Pinnacle Base.
And in both instances - Byss and the Eclipse - which are two Dark Side Nexi - Palpatine received a power boost and Luke's abilities were hindered.
Unlike the Duel on Byss - Leia used the Force and amped up Luke until he and Palpatine reached the same level of speed. And in that outcome - Luke legitimately owned Palpatine. A Luke who only owned Lumiya after many fights getting used to her combat style. And yet it took him only one duel to take him out. Remember that, unlike Lumiya's case - Luke was not familiar with Palpatine's unorthodox fighting style.



It is not perplexing. One is not a great or G.O.A.T in combat arts if his use of the Force clearly is greater than that of his enemies. Superior speed does not translate to superior skill.
When Palpatine was on equal foot - he lost in lightsabre combat:
1. Windu
2. Yoda
3. DE Luke



The lightsabre form is one and the practitioner is another. Don't mix them up.



Good job. You just proved that both were at the same speed - and Windu owned him.
It doesn't matter who amped who. All that matter is that on equal ground - Palpatine got stomped in lightsabre combat. Simple as that.



You must have misunderstood my point.
Galen has directed that Star Destroyer only in the game, but per the novel and comics - he merely re-directed a fallen Star Destroyer.

But still not seeing your point.

I never said blocking one strike made him a dueling God. I said he used it once in the Dark Side ending because he didn't need it for the actual fight.

He needs it in case someone wants to strike him face-to-face?



It was you who brought up the argument of the video-game, not me.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Though not sure you want to bring up TFU. Sure you think it helps you here, but I'm sure you'd hate it being brought up in another thread. Palpatine tanks an all out force release from someone who could bring down a Star Destroyer at lesser levels? And him not using his lightsaber is the bad looking part?

When I said TFU - I was talking about the novel.
But that's not the only duel: Savage Oppress and Darth Maul lightbulbs you up?

Actually, if you even bothered to look me up. I made that thread due to Palpatine's hype. Main point was that a lot of Palpatine's absolute hype(in comparison to the powerhouses of the Old Republic) might be due to his mlitary+political power - and rightfully so.



Uh, yes. I do. Keep claiming stuff.

Apparently, if you go back and read the posts - you are the one who is having that problem. Your inability to understand that superior speed doesn't translate to superior skill.





Not to mention the events depicted in Sithisis where he further hinders the Jedi's ability to use the Force.



lol What?

You do realize that when I said that I actually made reference to Palpatine's use of the Dark Side hindering the Jedi's ability to use the Force?

It has nothing to do with their lightsabre skills alone.

My point was that their ability to draw power from the Force was massively diminished and they could not fully access their great Force reserves to keep up with Palpatine's speed.
Hence Palpatine was a 'greater' lightsabre duelist than these guys.

Nadd actually making an argument for once rather than trolling? This can't be.

Because, as I said, you don't follow me on KMC or CV.

I told you this before:
I only troll when I feel something is stupid.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
I am fully aware it is six years after Heir to the Empire.

Also, you do realize that when I was talking about combat experience I was referring to facing opponents in lightsabre combat - not slaying droids or thugs?

ASFAIK - pre-Dark Empire Luke Skywalker's (solo)duels were only with Teneniel Djo and Lumiya. And in both instances - he always got owned by these two. It was until he got familiar with Lumiya's 'lightsabre' combat style that he finally managed to slay her.

You were not in any capacity aware that it was 6 years afterwards. In fact your entire post is a backtrack.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
And, yet he loses in lightsabre combat against a newbie Dark Empire Luke Skywalker on his flagship who barely defeated Vader because Vader was holding back.

Also, no you weren't.
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
It's not like he fought in countless wars to gain a vast amount of combat experience(during Dark Empire events)

The Lumiya fights were from a war. There were a bunch of battles (and by battles I mean a series of battles where thousands die) where he used his lightsaber. He beat a few Nightsisters in the Djo arc as well.
He also trained that quitter, and Leia.

He fought Flint, Nick Rostu, Luuke in addition. He also was honing his skills with Mara. He also beat Lumiya in almost an immediate rematch too.


And you're literally explaining experience and Luke getting better as a reason for why he defeated Lumiya. He could have lost 100 times in lightsaber duels, but as long as he came back and won that 101st duel he is getting better at dueling. Again, not a complicated issue. And he used these characters as a springboard to be able to fight Sidious. Just like how he used everything prior to the Vader fight to help him beat him. That's how experience works. That's what getting better means.

And not to mention his solo training as well. What is that, 5 and a half years of training to get better?




Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Yes - it does matter? It doesn't matter though because Luke gets randomly better at lightsaber combat just by getting stronger. In fact your sole argument here is that Palpatine is nothing without speed. Yet he was able to match for a while the two best duelist in the Order when the speed was equalized.

This is your argument. Luke owned Palpatine. Also your words.

This argument would lead us to believe that Luke is a better duelist than Yoda and Mace without any formal "lightsabre" training.

Luke was the only one out of the three to maim Palpatine severely, and he did it against a heavily amped Palpatine and he did it only because his speed was equalized. Again, your words.

So no, his experience doesn't matter. All Mace and Yoda could do was disarm Palpatine after a hard fought fight while Luke cut his hand right off.

Luke is a prodigy. All that matters is what he can do, not his experience dueling all the time. It took him 4 years to beat Vader who has some of the most combat experience in the series. It took him 10 years to be more skilled then someone who can do extremely well in pure skill against the two best duelists in Jedi history.

Luke should be nowhere near what he is is the point. Yet, we know by DE that Luke was more skilled than ever with a saber, so that's why his combat experience doesn't matter.



Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Yes - that was referring to his Force mastery - which has nothing to do with his lightsabre skills.
IIRC, and I do, Luke was never trained in the art of lightsabre combat - neither by Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda.
https://i.imgur.com/Hswwo7B.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1mlIHwE.jpg

https://imgur.com/KqTTlgq

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Of course I do know. It's the Duel on Byss where Luke confronts Palpatine in combat and then Palpatine inhabits a new body and 'defeats' Luke.
It's no wonder - though. Byss is a Dark Side nexus and Luke's light side abilities were massively hindered. More props to Luke for resisting for a while to fight Palpatine on one of the most powerful Dark Side nexi. No you didn't.
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
2. When did Palpatine beat Luke in lightsabre combat in Dark Empire?


Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Of course, when I said that Luke owned Palpatine I was talking about the 6th issue during the Battle of Pinnacle Base.
And in both instances - Byss and the Eclipse - which are two Dark Side Nexi - Palpatine received a power boost and Luke's abilities were hindered.
Unlike the Duel on Byss - Leia used the Force and amped up Luke until he and Palpatine reached the same level of speed. And in that outcome - Luke legitimately owned Palpatine. A Luke who only owned Lumiya after many fights getting used to her combat style. And yet it took him only one duel to take him out. Remember that, unlike Lumiya's case - Luke was not familiar with Palpatine's unorthodox fighting style. Where was it said Luke's abilities were being hindered? Hell, Leia was getting stronger being on Byss. At the very least Luke wasn't getting weaker. Especially when Luke was dipping into Dark Side powers to create a hologram to fool his friends before then. Not to mention Sheev was just getting his power and getting more powerful moment by moment when he jumped into his new body.
It's very doubtful the battlefield played any part there.

I wouldn't exactly say his Star Destroyer is a massive Dark Side Nexus either, but then again, I don't care.

She had a ****ing lightwhip... and that was their second fight. In contrast, Palpatine was using a lightsaber...


Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
It is not perplexing. One is not a great or G.O.A.T in combat arts if his use of the Force clearly is greater than that of his enemies. Superior speed does not translate to superior skill.
When Palpatine was on equal foot - he lost in lightsabre combat:
1. Windu
2. Yoda
3. DE Luke

Equal footing. Windu was amped farther than he has ever been amped before.

Yoda literally had an advantage with the podium, and his lightsaber style also has him amping his speed with the force.

And Luke you yourself admitted had his speed amped.

2 of the 3 required in your own words speed amps to contend with Palpatine's natural boosts of speed with his lightsaber style. Again, it'd be like trying to take away Yoda's boosts and trying to pretend he's a shitty duelist because of it. Both Yoda and Palpatine amp their speed, and both of them are tier 9 duelists. They are either at that level because of their skill alone, or they're at that level because of their speed and skill.

If it's skill alone it means Palpatine is a tier 9 in skill and can further amp his speed to compliment it.

To go the opposite way, it'd be like slowing down their speed to normal human levels and assuming they can still compete with Shaak Ti. The speed is part of the reason they're so skilled. Because they can combine their speed with their skill in the saber.

It is perplexing, because you still can't take his speed away. You're trying to separate them when you literally cannot, and deciding that only arbitrary rules that follow only your guidelines count as an application of skill. It is again, no different than me just going around whining about Yoda's speed and how it isn't skill.

For an actual real world example, Mike Tyson is regarded as skilled as he was largely because of his speed. The speed his hip extended was ridiculous. The speed in which he could dodge and strike as well. Roy Jones Jr is regarded as easily top 10 of the most skilled boxers of all time in his prime because of his speed. Ali as well made extreme use of his speed of his jab and footwork. Floyd's counters and defense are speed. Pacman's offense is ridiculous.

No one would say these fighters aren't skilled because they abuse their speed... actually:

Look how unskilled they are because they are abusing something their opponents lack!



Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
The lightsabre form is one and the practitioner is another. Don't mix them up. And Obi Wan is using an extension of the force to be so good at his form. He's cheating. It's not his skill alone.

That's how ridiculous this is. If everyone could boost their speed to Palpatine's level and be able to compete with Yoda, they would.



Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Good job. You just proved that both were at the same speed - and Windu owned him.
It doesn't matter who amped who. All that matter is that on equal ground - Palpatine got stomped in lightsabre combat. Simple as that. Mace needed a huge amp to compete with him. You're trying to take away Palpatine's speed, but you think it highly relevant that Mace who can only amp to that level against Palpatine means Palpatine is actually shit.

I have no issue counting Mace's performance against Sheev. What I find odd is someone being a huge hypocrite whining about an innate ability being unfair and not an application of skill, and therefore it doesn't count.

Mace came out on top against Sheev. I agree. Mace however needed a huge amp to do it. Which much like Vapaad actually loops back into Sheev to show how good he actually is.

Sheev can use his speed against everyone. Mace can only use that level of power against Sheev. That is the difference. This is completely nonsensical.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Actually, if you even bothered to look me up. I made that thread due to Palpatine's hype. Main point was that a lot of Palpatine's absolute hype(in comparison to the powerhouses of the Old Republic) might be due to his mlitary+political power - and rightfully so. You mistake my mockery for just one account. EVERY SINGLE SHEEV THREAD IS THAT.

It's all one sad attempt to downplay him. I understand you don't like his hype, but trying to combine a Lion King puzzle with a Jungle Book puzzle simply won't work. You don't go about your hate in a way that would lead others to see it your way. You just jam things where it doesn't belong. Sheev is only called the most powerful Sith because he has a lot of political pull. Sheev's own speed is the reason he can stomp others in lightsabers... nothing to do with skill. Shit like that.

Am I supposed to believe from your words that Kit Fisto is possibly on Sheev's level just because Sheev abused his own lightsaber style? Like really, how could you possibly correlate this?

Sheev vs Kit Fisto but you can't use anything from Sheev being faster than his opponents including Fisto? Maul vs Sheev but Sheev is just as fast as Maul. Don't use any fights where Sheev outskills Maul because it might be speed?

Your lowballing leads to nonsense and extreme handouts.



Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Uh, yes. I do. Keep claiming stuff.

Apparently, if you go back and read the posts - you are the one who is having that problem. Your inability to understand that superior speed doesn't translate to superior skill.
Even if that were possibly the case... that you're right. How could you possibly police what counts and what doesn't? It's already confusing enough with how much one area amps someone, now you're literally taking away normal showings just because of speed and making some "Only I should make the rules about this" guidelines.

And again, are ignoring the existence of Yoda. Someone who relies heavily on his speed. Apparently this guideline only applies to Sheev.




Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Not to mention the events depicted in Sithisis where he further hinders the Jedi's ability to use the Force.

You should really use the full quote.

Obi-Wan: I have successfully made contact with the Prime Minister of Kamino. They are using a bounty hunter named Jango Fett to create a clone army. I have a strong feeling that this bounty hunter is the assassin we're looking for.
Mace: Do you think these cloners are involved in the plot to assassinate Senator Amidala?
Obi-Wan: No, Master, there appears to be no motive!
Yoda: Do not assume anything, Obi-Wan. Clear, your mind must be, if you are to discover the real villains behind this plot.
Obi-Wan: Yes, Master. They say that a Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for a clone army at the request of the Senate, almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?
Mace: No. Whoever placed that order did not have the authorization of the Jedi Council.
Yoda: Into custody, take this Jango Fett. Bring him here. Question him, we will.
Obi-Wan: Yes, Master. I will report back if and when I have him.
Yoda: Blind we are, if the creation of this clone army we could not see.
Mace: I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.
Yoda: Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness. If informed, the Senate is, multiply, our adversaries will.



The Dark Cloud around the Jedi was only attributed to stopping them from seeing events unfold. It was clouding their connection to the force and stopping them from seeing things like the creation of the Clone Army. It was allowing the Sith Lord to rise to power when they didn't have the clarity to put a halt to things that would have stopped this.

Not once to my knowledge was it ever said to diminish their combat abilities. All it did was stop them from seeing events that the audience would go "Hey, why didn't you stop that you idiot?"

Not to mention Mace got more powerful than he ever has against Sidious with this "diminished" capacity. Hell, Yoda was the most powerful Jedi to ever fight the Dark Side at that point in time

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.



Which really seems to imply he's at his most powerful come ROTS which would indicate the "weakening" really did nothing.


Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
lol What?

You do realize that when I said that I actually made reference to Palpatine's use of the Dark Side hindering the Jedi's ability to use the Force?

It has nothing to do with their lightsabre skills alone.

My point was that their ability to draw power from the Force was massively diminished and they could not fully access their great Force reserves to keep up with Palpatine's speed.
Hence Palpatine was a 'greater' lightsabre duelist than these guys. That there's a literal scan in that quote that says Jedi amp their stats with the force to use a lightsaber. Speed included. I am at a loss of how to make the point more clear. Seriously. The sheer ignorance is overwhelming. I don't even know if I'm making good points since everything I read is not great and I think it's effecting my own abilities. Much like you think Sidious did to the Jedi.


And yes, I realize if we assume Sidious weakened the force it would have nothing to do with his lightsaber skills. My point is that you're going to say that Sidious weakened the entire Jedi Order here to suit your needs, and then somewhere down the line you're going to weasel out of this claim and play stupid, and likely even argue against it. I'd go get the quote from Tarkin to explain it, but you yourself claiming Sidious weakened them is delicious. Tell me how overhyped Sidious is though and how he's mostly political power when you're in here stating that Palpatine was cutting off the entire Jedi Order from the Force and it weakened them in combat.
Grab some sense.


Yoda was the equal to Palpatine in the Force.

Yoda's knowledge of the Force makes him just as powerful as Darth Sidious.

Which means that even if we assume Yoda couldn't draw on his full reserves because his vision was clouded, he could still draw on as much of the force as Sidious.

Meh. Likely won't reply to you. This is stupid.

Way to go, Mob. You're slaying tonight.

now if only we could get Nadd to regret how thoroughly he got his ass kicked.

Nah. He ain't slaying anything. I will reply when I have free time.

yes, replying now was not free time

You said Dark Empire is six years after Heir to Empire?
Didn't I say the same thing?

Sorry for the post. I sadly pressed enter. And I have to re-write it all over again. I cannot delete it apparently.

Tell me the feats of these Nightsisters since you brought them up?
So - what if he trained Leia? Your point being?

Luke was 'canonically' the 'new' Jedi. It makes sense he would train her since he knows a lot more than her.



Flint:
- he fought Flint just once. They were equally matched.

-in fact, Flint at his own turn fought Lumiya and he was bested by her.
She later took him as her apprentice. In fact, Flint has no noticeable skills. Heck, he had no combat skills before joining the Sith; he much admits so.



-his Sith training wasn't from start to beginning - he was first a stormtrooper. Only after some time - Vader deemed him ready to train him. And then Vader had in mind to put Lumiya against Flint - but by the time that happened - Vader died. It makes sense as to why Lumiya bested Flint in their duel. Flint didn't have as much training as Lumiya did.


Nick Rostu:

-when Luke fought Nick Rostu - he was actually being mind-controlled by Shadowspawn through the Shadow Crown. So, it was Shadowspawn who fought Luke and not Nick Rostu. And, Shadowspawn has no noticeable lightsabre skills

Luuke:

-you seem to forget that Luke and Luuke were actually equal?
And Luke also had help from Jade. In fact, it was Jade who finished off Luuke, and not Luke.

Lumiya:

-we have been through this already. He managed to defeat her, in their last battle, because he got familiar with her fighting style.

So, recap:
-Flint was barely a good lightsabre combatant compared to likes like Vader and Lumiya. And, yet, he managed to equal Luke in lightsabre combat. This shows that both of them were still newbies. Unless you want to say that Flint was a great swordsman fighter which I will find it stupid since he had lost against Lumiya.
-Nick Rostu was mind-controlled by Shadowspawn - who is barely a lightsabre combatant
-Lumiya's defeat came due to Luke getting more and more familiar with her 'lightsabre' form



You mean fighting her or training with her?

If you mean the latter - I am curious just how much would that increase Luke's lightsabre skills?
Because, AAIR, Luke never trained with her for a life time.




How does that translate to Luke getting better in lightsabre combat? Just because he is getting familiar with Lumiya's fighting style - that does not mean he is better at lightsabering everyone.

If he was that good as you imply - he should have owned Lumiya the moment he faced her.

You apparently cannot understand that there were outside factors which facilitated Luke's victory.
Look at Windu and Palpatine for example.
Windu never fought Palpatine before. And, yet, he managed to beat him in lightsabre combat - despite Windu not being familiar with Palpatine's vicious lightsabre style.



But when you count in the factors of the fights he fought, you would realize that most of them were against inferior lightsabre combat duelists( exception for Lumiya) or they were draws.

If his duels always had outside factors - that does not increase his lightsabre mastery to such ridiculous levels as you assume. You seem to imply that Luke beat Palpatine in their lightsabre duel because he had an astonishing amount of lightsabre experience(as well gauging Palpatine's lightsabre skills off that) - which is simply not true. At best - it is comparable with his father's experience(in Anakin's case in terms of intensity)

And not to mention his solo training as well. What is that, 5 and a half years of training to get better?

Solo training doesn't compare to battle experience. The first just 'helps' you in maintaining your 'current' combat skills.



Give a source.


Umm, what?

Excuse me for a moment? But you clearly don't make the difference between a good lightsabre combatant and the G.O.A.T lightsabre combatant. I never said for once that Palpatine is not good with a lightsabre; I merely said that he is not this G.O.A.T the Sheevites deem him to be. Can you make the difference between a decent lightsabre practitioner and a G.O.A.T?
Main point is that Palpatine is not the G.O.A.T in lightsabre combat. If he was - he should have beaten both in lightsabre combat.
Understand now?

However - in both cases he made use of his Force ability when he knew he cannot win lightsabre combat.



Taking in consideration that by the time of the OT - Palpatine doesn't practice lightsabre combat anymore. Of course his lightsabre skills would diminish in time. Especially by the time of Dark Empire. I don't know what's so hard to understand, honestly? Most Legends sources depict Palpatine as a Force wielder and not a lightsabre practitioner.



No. He did it because Palpatine's lightsabre skills suck(especially the most during the Dark Empire)



Yes, because during the PT - Palpatine's lightsabre skills were not totally 'obsolete'.



That is not an argument. Unless you want to say again that greater Force strength means 'superior skill' which is not true.



Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker:
-beat Dooku(but the novel informs the reader that Dooku was past his prime and was totally caught off guard)
-equaled Obi-Wan(draw)
-got defeated by Galen Marek on the Death Star
-got defeated by his clone
-couldn't beat an old Obi-Wan

And as it has been said before. Vader clearly held back. He didn't want to destroy Luke. He needed him.


Yes, because during the PT - Palpatine's lightsabre skills were not totally a waste.
But you are clearly missing the obvious. Main point is that he is not the G.O.A.T in lightsabre combat.

Yes, it does. And, no, by the time of Dark Empire - Palpatine's skills with a lightsabre were shit. Just that - plain and simple.



So, this source basically states that Luke became a better Force master and that 'he knew the moment when to strike with a lightsabre' - this just makes reference to his Jedi discipline - now he knows when to make use of lethal force and not. It does not make reference to his lightsabre mastery. His acrobatics and leaps are obviously linked to his Force mastery, not lightsabre mastery.



You gotta be kidding with me, right?

It is a well known fact that light side wielders are hindered by Dark Side nexi. Didn't you know that?



When did Leia get stronger being on Byss? o_0
Yes - he was. Both of them were being hindered by the Dark Side nexus.



When he turned against Palpatine - he gave up on the Dark Side.
It's very doubtful the battlefield played any part there.



Leia confirms it when Palpatine is not aboard the Eclipse.



Yeah - and when it came about lightsabres - Luke almost immediately owned Palpatine. See - he just was not familiar with her combat style. But then you may use this argument against me saying as to how Lumiya managed to defeat Flint. But you would be right - both of them lost against her because of that.



Actually, no. They had the same speed. If Palpatine's speed increased - so did Windu's.



Both were speed amped. Your point?

But Windu didn't have any advantage and he still kicked Sheev's wrinkled butt.



Both were. And yet Palpatine was the one who lost. If their speed is the same. That means (DE) Palpatine just sucks with a lightsabre if he lost against Luke.



You do realize that not the Force speed amplifier is the problem in Palpatine's fights? The problem is when two guys have the same speed. Then you see who is the better fighter.



This is G-canon, not EU/Legends. Gillard's classification is only for G-canon. It has nothing to do with the EU.



Once again. Not Legends. It is not Legends applicable.



Put all of them on the same speed. And see who is the better fighter.



The problem is not in using the Force to amp up your speed. The problem is in when you and your enemy have equal speed and he beats you despite people think you are the G.O.A.T in lightsabre combat.



You are right. There cannot be any comparison.



Right said. I cannot blame you.




But Anakin uses the Force too. So, they are even. There is no reason to say that Obi-Wan is not skilled when it comes to combatants who manage to equal his speed.



But for how long?



If the Speed is the same you see who is the better in combat skill. And Windu proved he was despite the amp. I don't have problems with any speed amps - but if two guys fight and one gets owned(despite his hype-y praise), then you get my point.



Did he beat his ass in lightsabre combat? He did. End of Story.



Only the Force power, not the lightsabre skill. Otherwise neither side would win the lightsabre battle.



I don't care about speed amps - for one last time. If two adversaries fight and the one with the biggest praise loses - then you get my point(again)

Yes. The novel and the comic book is accurate. However, in all instances - Galen was severely weakened. That means he was at the limit. So it's not that impressive when Sheev owned him. Especially when we talk about TOR powerhouses.



Sorry - sometimes I use this perspective in my arguments. Don't ask me why. I just do it.



It was explained in ROTS novel that he beat Dooku because Dooku was long past his prime and because he was caught off by Skywalker's 'doubled power'. Had Dooku knew Anakin's improved fighting style - it would have been most likely barely a draw



But Valkorion also carries a lightsabre. Does that mean he is a G.O.A.T duelist? Of course not. Sith Lords do carry their lightsabres. It's just in the arsenal of a Sith Lord.



I am not trolling right now, though.
If you think this is absolutely awful? Okay.



The novel is similar to the game - except that you don't fight that long Palpatine and his Dark Side adepts.

You should know two things:
1. There is Galen Marek
2. There is his clone

1. Galen Marek's skill with the Star Destroyer exhausted him. So, it wasn't an ordinary feat. He reached to his limit.

2. Galen Marek's clone has a greater strength in the Force. Not sure why?

Nice feat for Marek clone in powering up the canons. But when it comes about TOR powerhouses - this is not impressive.
Ever heard of Darth Nihilus - who could TK a 1,800 Star Destroyer-like warship without breaking a sweat and was a world-eater?
Or Darth Nyriss - whose lightning ashed people upon contact?
Or Valkorion - who is above Nyriss and it is said to be above even Nihilus?

Are you aware - that Legends-wise, Palpatine's 'nigh' feats are not at all impressive?







Keyword: astonishingly fast and efficient. Given his superior speed - of course he would easily beat their asses. Not to mention he also Force owned them while lightsabre battling them.

Hey, I did say I was sorry.




They do belong. Sheev is deemed the most powerful Sith because he brought an end to the Jedi Order+his multiversal characteristics(Force strength, Force knowledge, military and political power) He has a bit from each.



The PT and the OT obviously make that blatant given Palpatine's absolute hype. He is there with the most powerful Sith Lords, rightfully so. But he is not the strongest. That's the point.



No. You are supposed to believe that Palpatine is not the G.O.A.T in lightsabres. That's all.

But, then again, the ROTS novel makes it clear that Palpatine killed them all due to his superior speed. Just saying...




Sheev is faster than Maul.



Nah. My lowballing is there only to remind the Sheevites that Sheev is not the G.O.A.T in lightsabre combat.



Amp is irrelevant. What is important is if the fighters - who fight on equal ground - win based on their combat skills.



Never implied that. But Yoda owned Palpatine in lightsabre combat. And that's all.







You do realize if that was the case, Windu should have said: "Our Force ability/foresight has diminished."?

You do realize that the Jedi's Force foresight is actually just one of their many Force abilities?
That's why Windu said: "Our ability to use the Force."

Not to mention that the Darth Plagueis novel plainly evidenced that when you(I mean Palpatine) and Darth Plagueis suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side and turn the Balance in the favor of the Sith Order.



"This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war."

Yes. But what has this to do with the Jedi's ability to use the Force being diminished?

One does not contradict the latter. It just says that during the PT - Yoda was the most powerful representant of the light side. In fact, it acknowledges his immense power despite the Jedi were hindered.



No - it just means that Yoda was at that time the light side's most powerful avatar. That's all. It just acknowledges his Force strength.



I have nothing with speed amps when the duelists have the same speed and prove(whoever that is) to have greater combat skills than their enemy they face.




1. But he did
2. The point is that he is not the lightsabre G.O.A.T




You grab some sense. The Legends material has clearly established that a lot of Palpatine's absolute hype comes from his combination of Force strength+Force knowledge+military and political power.

Why do you think he is the Sith G.O.A.T in absolute hypes? Because he brought an end to the Jedi Order and conquered the entire galaxy. And it wasn't done through the expression of power, but through the expression of cunning and manipulation. What he had done has not been achieved through brute 'Force' strength as past Sith Lords tried and failed to. He had done it through cunning and influence.




Naturally. Which it is a statement which does not take into account any impediments in Yoda's abilities.



Basically the source above says that their knowledge rivaled each other. And it's not Yoda we talk about. It's Palpatine. And he lost in lightsabre combat in the end. Plain and simple.



When your arguments only resume to surface of things - I agree.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Sidious is a master of murder. It's only logical that he'd master every tactic/device conducive to murder.


Originally posted by Geistalt
Way to go, Mob. You're slaying tonight.

now if only we could get Nadd to regret how thoroughly he got his ass kicked.

I have a question for you Nadd - which normally I'd just drop it after saying I wouldn't reply, but seeing your drastic change in tone makes me mildly want to answer - do you actually want me to reply?

Do you believe yourself correct in such a way that you're confident your position stands on its own? Do you want to further this? Are you confident enough in your position to dare me to try and point out any flaws?

Or, do you admit you misspoke at a couple junctions (you don't have to point out where), and would rather I didn't reply?

I am perfectly fine with either answer. I have no issue going into a potential 15 post reply battle with you (nothing beyond that though), or I am fine with you having the last word right now. The question is though, what do you want me to do?

I will either reply or drop it (without arguing with your reasoning) depending on your answer

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I have a question for you Nadd - which normally I'd just drop it after saying I wouldn't reply, but seeing your drastic change in tone makes me mildly want to answer - do you actually want me to reply?

Do you believe yourself correct in such a way that you're confident your position stands on its own? Do you want to further this? Are you confident enough in your position to dare me to try and point out any flaws?

Or, do you admit you misspoke at a couple junctions (you don't have to point out where), and would rather I didn't reply?

I am perfectly fine with either answer. I have no issue going into a potential 15 post reply battle with you (nothing beyond that though), or I am fine with you having the last word right now. The question is though, what do you want me to do?

I will either reply or drop it (without arguing with your reasoning) depending on your answer


Please reply. This debate is way too entertaining to give up on.

I'm genuinely perplexed by the willful ignorance here. The evidence pertaining to Palpatine's lightsaber prowess literally cannot get more explicit:


https://i.imgur.com/2d8uGqo.jpg
-TCW Episode Guide


" style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous -- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him." - NG

"Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced." - NG

"Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style." - NG



Certainly his speed(and overall force power) makes Palpatine more lethal in a duel, but pretending like he is only an impressive swordsman because he's super-duper fast is just ridiculous.

I just realized something.

Flint vs Luke takes place 4 years ABY
Nick Rostu vs Luke takes place 5 years ABY(Shadows of Mindor)
Luuke vs Luke takes place 9 years ABY(Heir to the Empire)
Lumiya vs Luke takes place 40 years ABY
(of course there is the Skirmish on Kinooine that takes place 4 years ABY - but at that point - you could barely call Lumiya a master in the arts of lightwhip combat. And, yet she still bested Luke)


Flint vs Luke:
-neither managed to defeat the other. In fact this duel takes place 1 year after Luke's duel on Cloud City with Vader

Nick Rostu vs Luke:
-Nick was mind-controlled by Cronal - who has no noticeable lightsabre skills

Luuke vs Luke:
-neither managed to defeat the other. It was Mara who gave the final blow

Lumiya vs Luke:

-she much admits that it is her lightwhip that gave her advantage against her enemies


{QUOTE]"That combination is what defeated him(Luke). His Jedi training had prepared him for an energy weapon, or a solid one. Not one that was both at once."
―Lumiya


-then, Luke reveals his plan - he has created a shoto which, in concert with his lightsaber, allow him to match Lumiya's lightwhip.

-Lumiya's lightwhip could be defeated by a warrior skilled in the Jar'Kai dueling style who was furnished with both a standard lightsaber and a short-bladed variation known as a shoto.





But keep in mind that this is the 'newbie' Lumiya who wasn't fully familiar with her weapon(unlike her 40 ABY self)

EDIT: I knew something was fishy when you brought up Luke's duels with her(except the Skirmish on Kinooine)

They are actually happening 40 years ABY(long after the DE events, the Shadows of Mindor and Thrawn campaign)

-Lumiya's lightwhip's extensions helped her to engage enemies from a vantage point of several meters; that made it extremely difficult for them to closely engage her and helped her to have control of combat situations.
This, however, came to an end when Luke fought Lumiya on Terephon.
That duel was in Skywalker's favor. Although she fought as best she could, there were no distractions to deter the inexorable might of the Grand Master; unlike Roqoo or the resort station at Gilatter VIII, Lumiya was not surrounded by objects or hostages. Atop the cliff, Skywalker ducked inside her defenses and their weapons clashed.

What's worth mentioning is that Luke eschewed the use of his shoto. He implemented an aggressive two-handed onslaught against the whip's linear assault. Lumiya was unable to achieve its maximum velocity when Skywalker rushed her, forcing the Dark Lady to give ground as she attempted to regain sufficient distance to effectively swing her weapon.

It also known that Lumiya's lightwhip is less powerful than a lightsabre. The whip's metal and leather thongs are vulnerable to being cut, and the energy beams had the potential to short out violently if sufficient physical force is applied with a lightsabre.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm genuinely perplexed by the willful ignorance here. The evidence pertaining to Palpatine's lightsaber prowess literally cannot get more explicit:


https://i.imgur.com/2d8uGqo.jpg
-TCW Episode Guide


" style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous -- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him." - NG

"Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced." - NG

"Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style." - NG



Certainly his speed(and overall force power) makes Palpatine more lethal in a duel, but pretending like he is only an impressive swordsman because he's super-duper fast is just ridiculous.
Good. The source states he is a master of all forms. He knows all forms. That's all. Not that he mastered all of them to perfection.

Besides that: I was referring to Dark Empire Palpatine's lightsabre skills sucking. PT Palpatine's lightsabre skills were quite decent. And the main point was that he is not the G.O.A.T in lightsabre combat. That's all.

Also - those statements are G-canon; not EU canon.

He is a decent lightsabre combatant during the PT. But to insinuate that all his duels are won only because of his 'godly' lightsabre combat skills is ridiculous as well, Admiral.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Please reply. This debate is way too entertaining to give up on.

Only now I realize this is only canon Sidious. Meh.

You couldn't say really many thing about him in canon, ''cept some hyping.

This source/fragment basically states that Palpatine is relying more on his Force abilities and stalling rather than continuously fighting with his lightsabre.



This is official wank. Nothing more. Have we seen him applying that 'claim' in the lore?

It's like the hyping of the ancient Sith which is never presented in the lore - and yet people dismiss the ancient Sith's hype because those characters never stood up to that 'hype'?

How did you manage to make this page even more of a mess is beyond me.

Look do you want me to reply to you or not?

The reason I ask is because I don't think you believe your own argument and you indirectly nullified a good half of your argument with one sentence. Not to mention almost every breakdown is just a handwave away to talk about "Nope speed", and you defended your use of calling characters "You" as opposed to just admitting you were using the game. In addition to some other stuff... a lot of other stuff.


Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Please reply. This debate is way too entertaining to give up on. It's not entertaining at all though.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
The source states he is a master of all forms. He knows all forms. That's all. Not that he mastered all of them to perfection.

Can someone explain the difference between "mastering" something and "perfecting" something? :/

Originally posted by Galan007


1. It's just 'unproven' hype and you know it. If we go by unproven hype - then the ancient Sith hype is welcome too
2. master

noun
a person with the ability or power to use, control, or dispose of something:
e.g: a master of six languages; to be master of one's fate


3. I don't want to talk about Legends content, anyways. It's just canon continuity in the OP's thread

Originally posted by Sheev
Can someone explain the difference between "mastering" something and "perfecting" something? :/

master:
verb

to make oneself master of; become an adept in:


perfect:
verb

make (something) completely free from faults or defects; make as good as possible:

Originally posted by One Big Mob
How did you manage to make this page even more of a mess is beyond me.

Look do you want me to reply to you or not?

The reason I ask is because I don't think you believe your own argument and you indirectly nullified a good half of your argument with one sentence. Not to mention almost every breakdown is just a handwave away to talk about "Nope speed", and you defended your use of calling characters "You" as opposed to just admitting you were using the game. In addition to some other stuff... a lot of other stuff.


It's not entertaining at all though.

No. At least not here. It took me some time to realize that this thread was meant only for canon Palpatine.

It's not worth it to stretch it out even further.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
1. It's just 'unproven' hype and you know it. If we go by unproven hype - then the ancient Sith hype is welcome too
2. master

noun
a person with the ability or power to use, control, or dispose of something:
e.g: a master of six languages; to be master of one's fate What a terrible and entirely self-defeating bit of non-logic, lol.


Yoda was stated to have "mastery" of Ataro, and Kenobi was regarded as "THE master" of Soresu:

https://i.imgur.com/h9khgL3.jpg
-RotS

So your contention is that Yoda hadn't 'perfected' Ataro and Kenobi hadn't 'perfected' Soresu? Please.


Heck, Yoda was stated to be a "master" of ALL lightsaber styles:
https://i.imgur.com/mHIkSul.jpg

So your contention is that Yoda hadn't 'perfected' said styles? Please.


Of course there are SEVERAL other examples I could post(ie. Dooku being regarded as a Makashi "master", Kit Fisto being regarded as a Shii-Cho "master", Adi Gallia being regarded as a Shien "master", etc. etc.), but there's really no reason. Clearly if one is regarded as a true "master" of a given form, it is assumed they have "perfected" it(especially when we start talking about high-level swordmasters like Yoda and Palpatine.) Laughably foolish to assume otherwise, tbh.

I love this side of Freedon Nadd. Is this what things were like in the golden days?

Well, anyway. I don't think any amount of quotes is going to convince Nadd here, so I'm going to try a different approach.

The star wars universe is an interpretable canon. Different people, including the creators, have different ideas of how things should be. Now it's possible that there are creators out there, and there are, for a fact, fans out there, who believe that Sidious wielding a lightsaber is stupid. However, this is, as I said, an interpretation of the character. Meaning if you disagree with those of us, and the creators that Sidious is the Greatest Of Them All in every way, then that's one way to look at this galaxy far, far away.

Sta Wars, in the end, is a story. Not just in the real world, but a defining aspect of star wars is that it's a tale. A fairy tale, a mythology. It's not meant to make sense the way the real world does. It makes poetic sense instead. So one has to look at Sidious' accomplishments in the light of poetic sense instead of logical. I know this is what you've been doing the whole time, unlike everyone else here.

So, there's no fixed answer to how good Sidious is with lightsabers. If it makes more sense to you that he'd not have fantastic lightsaber skills, then that's your head canon. If it makes more sense to you that he would, then there.

But then what's fair game when considering Sidious' lightsaber skills? I would say it depends what the story needs/calls for. Although he has managed to at least MATCH powerful opponents with the lightsaber, so he has to be quite far above average.

There is absolute consistency that Sidious' lightsaber skills are among the greatest in the mythos.

Yeah, well, it's fiction, and you can believe whatever you want about it. I believe Sidious' lightsaber skills are great, but that's just 'cause I want to. There are things I believe which aren't entirely backed by textual evidence, 'cause I want to.

Sure, but for a debating forum there is an objective answer for Sidious' skill level.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There is absolute consistency that Sidious' lightsaber skills are among the greatest in the mythos.

1. Fails to realize that lightsabre mastery will diminish in time if one does not hold on their lightsabre use
2. Fails to realize I was talking about DE Sidious' sucking in lightsabre combat. His PT incarnation still holds his lightsabre skills quite decently.
3. Fails to realize that my stance on Palpatine's lightsabre wank is not due to him being a skilled master of lightsabre skills. It's about him being the MvP(the greatest of the greatest - with no equal or superior)
4. Fails to realize that even the books emphasise on his "astonishing" speed when it comes about dueling.
5. KMC members go against hype without feats. Yet they accept some of Sidious even if he really didn't stand up to those claims.

I guess right now you would say that in a lightsabre match - Valkorion would beat the shit out of Palpatine because he is so much faster(if we assume that greater Force strength = greater speed)

Originally posted by Galan007
What a terrible and entirely self-defeating bit of non-logic, lol.


Yoda was stated to have "mastery" of Ataro, and Kenobi was regarded as "THE master" of Soresu:

https://i.imgur.com/h9khgL3.jpg
-RotS

So your contention is that Yoda hadn't 'perfected' Ataro and Kenobi hadn't 'perfected' Soresu? Please.


Heck, Yoda was stated to be a "master" of ALL lightsaber styles:
https://i.imgur.com/mHIkSul.jpg

So your contention is that Yoda hadn't 'perfected' said styles? Please.


Of course there are SEVERAL other examples I could post(ie. Dooku being regarded as a Makashi "master", Kit Fisto being regarded as a Shii-Cho "master", Adi Gallia being regarded as a Shien "master", etc. etc.), but there's really no reason. Clearly if one is regarded as a true "master" of a given form, it is assumed they have "perfected" it(especially when we start talking about high-level swordmasters like Yoda and Palpatine.) Laughably foolish to assume otherwise, tbh.

And it makes sense to you?

Are you not ready to question such statement/s?

If your gouvern tells you tomorrow to shoot anyone who steals petty things - I guess you'd do it because it is "official". And you cannot disagree with that nor seeing the flaws in such commandment to prove them wrong and seek a solution to clear this nonsense.

I just wonder myself if you have the ability/the awareness to question anything people would tell you - be it in words or written form?

Humans are clearly flawed beings. To take anything for granted just because it is official doesn't make any sense. The world advanced due to polemics and not blind obedience. But in the end - I think I am wasting my time here.

One final question:

If a master of all forms means that one has perfected all the forms to perfection. How comes that Yoda>Dooku in lightsabre combat? How comes there are some lightsabre Masters who are 'more skilled' than others and manage to defeat them in combat?


How comes that a DE Luke managed to beat Palpatine in lightsabre combat despite the praise Palpatine gets in some sources of the EU lore?

Or, you are finally coming to your senses and understand just because something is official doesn't make it valid. And just because something is published(which also is inconsistent to the lore) doesn't mean it's accurate. And we know that something inaccurate and inconsistent cannot be taken as a valid fact - when such things happen in a debate.

I still can't figure out how you think it's an excellent point to point out that Sheev's skill diminished over time and somehow that's relevant to his skill in his prime when he collected his accolades.
Among other things but this is highly counterproductive to the point you're trying to establish.

It'd be like me trying to judge or diminish George Foreman's skills in his prime based off of when he came back when he was 45-50. The only thing you're doing is showing that he was even more skilled than DE at one point in time. Not to mention you make a big deal of Yoda being "weakened" yet you outright admit that Sidious is not as skilled as he once was and this somehow effects his skill standing.

There is so many things wrong with your posts, but this one in particular erases half your points. Yet you're still bringing it up. This is very confusing, and a reason why I kind of wanted to answer your post.


Can you explain why you think Luke beating Sidious in DE sabers is a good indicator of Sheev's skill when you admitted that his skill has gone downhill?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sure, but for a debating forum there is an objective answer for Sidious' skill level.

Alright, I'm going to go back on that last comment of mine. Sidious must have some sort of objective skill with a lightsaber, but there are subjective influences.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I still can't figure out how you think it's an excellent point to point out that Sheev's skill diminished over time and somehow that's relevant to his skill in his prime when he collected his accolades.
Among other things but this is highly counterproductive to the point you're trying to establish.

It'd be like me trying to judge or diminish George Foreman's skills in his prime based off of when he came back when he was 45-50. The only thing you're doing is showing that he was even more skilled than DE at one point in time. Not to mention you make a big deal of Yoda being "weakened" yet you outright admit that Sidious is not as skilled as he once was and this somehow effects his skill standing.

There is so many things wrong with your posts, but this one in particular erases half your points. Yet you're still bringing it up. This is very confusing, and a reason why I kind of wanted to answer your post.


Can you explain why you think Luke beating Sidious in DE sabers is a good indicator of Sheev's skill when you admitted that his skill has gone downhill?

1. You don't have to write that much.
2. I was just saying how could someone with Luke's small experience beat Palpatine with an experience that is beyond comprehension per some sources?
3. Or how can a Master beat another Master when each of them perfected the lightsabres form to perfection?
4. Or how can Yoda>Dooku in lightsabre combat if both are Masters? Or how can Windu beat Palpatine in lightsabre combat in Revenge of the Sith despite the fact that Palpatine's lightsabre skills are beyond understanding?
5. Honestly - this was not meant to you, but for the Admiral.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I still can't figure out how you think it's an excellent point to point out that Sheev's skill diminished over time and somehow that's relevant to his skill in his prime when he collected his accolades.
Among other things but this is highly counterproductive to the point you're trying to establish.

It'd be like me trying to judge or diminish George Foreman's skills in his prime based off of when he came back when he was 45-50. The only thing you're doing is showing that he was even more skilled than DE at one point in time. Not to mention you make a big deal of Yoda being "weakened" yet you outright admit that Sidious is not as skilled as he once was and this somehow effects his skill standing.

There is so many things wrong with your posts, but this one in particular erases half your points. Yet you're still bringing it up. This is very confusing, and a reason why I kind of wanted to answer your post.


Can you explain why you think Luke beating Sidious in DE sabers is a good indicator of Sheev's skill when you admitted that his skill has gone downhill?

Where's it stated Sheev's skill diminished? He's got an accolade saying he's the equal of Windu and Yoda even as of RotJ.

Originally posted by Azronger
Where's it stated Sheev's skill diminished? He's got an accolade saying he's the equal of Windu and Yoda even as of RotJ. I didn't share my personal thoughts on the subject.

Freedent is the one saying his skills diminished while in the same breath speaking as if the DE showing means a lot. I'm merely pointing out the flaw in this line of thinking.
The guy is complaining about Sidious being a Mary Sue while wondering how Luke got so good, for example as well. There is a lot of conflict with what he says to say the least. Well worth a read to see how many times he tramples over his own points.

Though I would assume if he was truly out of practice for decades that he wouldn't be as sharp as he once was. But I'm not convinced that isn't just people accounting for the lack of showings with one and assuming he doesn't train anymore. I can't fathom he simply gave up training with a lightsaber after seeing how skilled some of the Jedi were with it, but I've never looked into the subject.

Sidious stated that he hated lightsaber combat and only employed it as a tool against the jedi. He also felt it was a way of mocking them. So after the rise of the Empire I'm not sure what incentive he would have to keep his skills sharp. He had Vader, he had his Royal Guards. His force powers at this point were well-above the point of needing to resort to light-saber combat to defeat his enemies.

Nadd me thinks you're selling Flint a little short.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I didn't share my personal thoughts on the subject.

Freedent is the one saying his skills diminished while in the same breath speaking as if the DE showing means a lot. I'm merely pointing out the flaw in this line of thinking.
The guy is complaining about Sidious being a Mary Sue while wondering how Luke got so good, for example as well. There is a lot of conflict with what he says to say the least. Well worth a read to see how many times he tramples over his own points.

Though I would assume if he was truly out of practice for decades that he wouldn't be as sharp as he once was. But I'm not convinced that isn't just people accounting for the lack of showings with one and assuming he doesn't train anymore. I can't fathom he simply gave up training with a lightsaber after seeing how skilled some of the Jedi were with it, but I've never looked into the subject.

Yes. But we were going off the premise that everything I say is wrong and stupid, right? Therefore, my statements and interpretation hold no water?

All in all: If you think that a 6 years old lightsabre combat Luke>Sidious in lightsabre combat despite his enormous praise, then you are further proving me that Sidious sucks with a lightsabre. If it's the other way around: you are further proving me how inaccurate handbooks and sourcebooks are when it comes to in-universe interpretation of said-so events and characters.

But have it your way.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Nadd me thinks you're selling Flint a little short.

Not really. They were comparable back then.

We know that Luke didn't want him to be a Jedi and that he had to do the low class job(stormtrooper) to become a part of the Empire. And the stormtrooper thing was quite long.
He didn't really have enough training to put him on Ventress' level - for example.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Not really. They were comparable back then.

We know that Luke didn't want him to be a Jedi and that he had to do the low class job(stormtrooper) to become a part of the Empire. And the stormtrooper thing was quite long.
He didn't really have enough training to put him on Ventress' level - for example.

Well what I mean is, you said he had no combat skills. Unless you were meaning Jedi skill, but maybe I was confused with your wording. Being a Stormtrooper isn't really low class either, their training is pretty cut throat and they are trained in melee weaponry.

I can agree to that though, still it was noted he was trained by Vader and the battle between him and Lumiya was described as fierce and left both combatants battered, it wasn't like a one-two and done kind of thing.

I'm not saying Flint is like in the top range or anything, but to say he's barely a combatant seems a little low for him.

Well he had a stalemate with Luke - so.

On top of that: Stormtroopers are not trained to use lightsabres nor Force powers.

Also, Lumiya noted that it was her rare weapon combo'd with her fighting style which allowed her to beat Flint.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Well he had a stalemate with Luke - so.

On top of that: Stormtroopers are not trained to use lightsabres nor Force powers.

Also, Lumiya noted that it was her rare weapon combo'd with her fighting style which allowed her to beat Flint.

Right and Luke has shown great lightsaber skill up to that point.

They are not no, so unless you were meaning combat skills in relation to Jedi training then ok(though Kyle was able to somewhat manage using a lightsaber his first time via fighting with Stormtrooper fencing training, so rudimentary basics would still be involved), but he does have combat skill otherwise.

Which takes away from them having a fierce fight how? It was still a fight that left the two of them battered, it's just that Lumiya came out with the win.

Again not saying Flint is a high tier combatant, but he's not a low one either, given he was trained by Vader too.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Right and Luke has shown great lightsaber skill up to that point.

They are not no, so unless you were meaning combat skills in relation to Jedi training then ok(though Kyle was able to somewhat manage using a lightsaber his first time via fighting with Stormtrooper fencing training, so rudimentary basics would still be involved), but he does have combat skill otherwise.

Which takes away from them having a fierce fight how? It was still a fight that left the two of them battered, it's just that Lumiya came out with the win.

Again not saying Flint is a high tier combatant, but he's not a low one either, given he was trained by Vader too.

What great lightsabre skills?

His experience was just like Luke's.

So what if he got trained by Vader?

Is it something else if Vandar trains you how to use a lightsabre or Vader does?

All I am saying is that Flint was only a 'newbie' when he confronted Luke. He had no battle experience at all. Luke was his first adversary.
But believe what you want.