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Wanda:

https://imgur.com/a/qxl8rgJ

vs.

Beyonder:

https://imgur.com/a/bKMM6Wt


Who have more raw power and who wins?

Any version of Beyonder wins (yes even the crippled Maker version).

Originally posted by zopzop
Any version of Beyonder wins (yes even the crippled Maker version).

Even the Maker ? He was watered down a lot. He was just planetary at best IIRC.

Doom admitted that Wanda's power source dwarfed Beyonder's power when he usurped her power, for what it's worth. But yeah, in a battle Beyonder wins every time. Except the maker version.

Originally posted by operator616
Doom admitted that Wanda's power source dwarfed Beyonder's power when he usurped her power, for what it's worth. But yeah, in a battle Beyonder wins every time. Except the maker version.

Do you remember in which issue specifically ?

Avengers: The Children's Crusade #8.

Originally posted by operator616
Avengers: The Children's Crusade #8.

Thanks

Let me take a stab in the dark and guess this leads to Sentry > HoM Wanda > Beyonder?

And that's why Molecule Man can't win

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Let me take a stab in the dark and guess this leads to Sentry > HoM Wanda > Beyonder?

And that's why Molecule Man can't win

Stark said that Sentry can create a new House of M on a whim.

Originally posted by operator616
Doom admitted that Wanda's power source dwarfed Beyonder's power when he usurped her power, for what it's worth. But yeah, in a battle Beyonder wins every time. Except the maker version.

But Doom did reference to Beyonder's of Secret Wars II? Really don't believe that Wanda had more power, could be a retcon or something.

Originally posted by backup
But Doom did reference to Beyonder's of Secret Wars II? Really don't believe that Wanda had more power, could be a retcon or something.

SW I, you mean. Because that's where Doom usurped Beyonder's power.

And yes, he was definitely referencing that because that's the only time he had the beyonder's power. SW itself is still very much in continuity and will never be retconned away for that matter (because of off-topic reasons). The events themselves of SW I and II are still very much intact, what's not is beyonder's power levels and origins; since then he's been retconned into a cosmic cube and mutant inhuman (though some controversy surrounds this). So basically, life force > post-retcon Beyonder in terms of raw power, according to Doom.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Stark said that Sentry can create a new House of M on a whim.

So can Wonder man's power if you don't read those statements in context as opposed to make-believe scenarios.

Originally posted by operator616
SW I, you mean. Because that's where Doom usurped Beyonder's power.

And yes, he was definitely referencing that because that's the only time he had the beyonder's power. SW itself is still very much in continuity and will never be retconned away for that matter (because of off-topic reasons). The events themselves of SW I and II are still very much intact, what's not is beyonder's power levels and origins; since then he's been retconned into a cosmic cube and mutant inhuman (though some controversy surrounds this). So basically, life force > post-retcon Beyonder in terms of raw power, according to Doom.



So can Wonder man's power if you don't read those statements in context as opposed to make-believe scenarios.

Where is that said about Wonder man ?

About Sentry that's a fact.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Where is that said about Wonder man ?

About Sentry that's a fact.

Oh it's not just said. It's actually shown how Wanda, using Simon as a power source (as a replacement for the life force), performed the "mutant rapture". Which was specifically stated to be an HoM like event. It was the main plot for the majority of Remender's UA.

You must understand that when people refer to the HoM event they don't mean the major reality warping shenanigans and chaos waves. They don't mean that the sentry can unleash a chaos wave upon the omniverse and restore it with a single sentence, which is really the highlight of Wanda's feat for us battle board nerds. No, from an in-universe perspective the highlight of House of M was the depowerment of mutants. that's what people refer to when saying sentry can do something similar. Mind you, i don't think sentry can do even that but the point is it's still a far cry from Wanda's true feat.

You'd have to have an actual cosmic being like the LT or Eternity saying this about the sentry instead of Stark or Ms. Marvel for it to be of any sort of significance. And by that i mean to even begin to entertain the idea.

Originally posted by operator616
Oh it's not just said. It's actually shown how Wanda, using Simon as a power source (as a replacement for the life force), performed the "mutant rapture". Which was specifically stated to be an HoM like event. It was the main plot for the majority of Remender's UA.

You must understand that when people refer to the HoM event they don't mean the major reality warping shenanigans and chaos waves. They don't mean that the sentry can unleash a chaos wave upon the omniverse and restore it with a single sentence, which is really the highlight of Wanda's feat for us battle board nerds. No, from an in-universe perspective the highlight of House of M was the depowerment of mutants. that's what people refer to when saying sentry can do something similar. Mind you, i don't think sentry can do even that but the point is it's still a far cry from Wanda's true feat.

You'd have to have an actual cosmic being like the LT or Eternity saying this about the sentry instead of Stark or Ms. Marvel for it to be of any sort of significance. And by that i mean to even begin to entertain the idea.

I don't think it was about the mutant depowerment from Tony's side.

He said that the psionic outburst of Sentry could change the world more openly and give them another House of M to deal with.

He is literally speaking about the Universal reality altering event of the House of M.

Pre-R Beyonder wins. HoM Wanda was outstanding though.

Originally posted by Inedian
Pre-R Beyonder wins. HoM Wanda was outstanding though.

dont you bump other threads above my threads!!!

Originally posted by operator616
Oh it's not just said. It's actually shown how Wanda, using Simon as a power source (as a replacement for the life force), performed the "mutant rapture". Which was specifically stated to be an HoM like event. It was the main plot for the majority of Remender's UA.
So Wanda + Simon = Wanda + Lifeforce power wise?

Originally posted by zopzop
So Wanda + Simon = Wanda + Lifeforce power wise?

No. I was making a point in what context "house of m event" is being used from an in-universe perspective.

The mutant rapture (which was likened to an HoM event and stated to require a similar power level even) consisted of summoning the mutants, putting them to sleep and get them to Jupiter where they can use their abilities free from human oppression.

Originally posted by operator616
No. I was making a point in what context "house of m event" is being used from an in-universe perspective.

The mutant rapture (which was likened to an HoM event and stated to require a similar power level even) consisted of summoning the mutants, putting them to sleep and get them to Jupiter where they can use their abilities free from human oppression.

Or that just means that Ionic Energy equals Life Force in terms of Power Source ?

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Or that just means that Ionic Energy equals Life Force in terms of Power Source ?

Simon is just a being made of ionic energy, he's not a conduit for all ionic energy if that's what you were implying. In the same series he was stated to have the power of a city... although in a later story he was stated to have the power of a star. Probably hyperbole though.

On second thought, you may be on to something: https://imgur.com/a/WqZhKNe

WM = Sentry > life force > Beyonder/Molecule man > everyone else in marvel.

Thoughts?

Originally posted by operator616
SW I, you mean. Because that's where Doom usurped Beyonder's power.

And yes, he was definitely referencing that because that's the only time he had the beyonder's power. SW itself is still very much in continuity and will never be retconned away for that matter (because of off-topic reasons). The events themselves of SW I and II are still very much intact, what's not is beyonder's power levels and origins; since then he's been retconned into a cosmic cube and mutant inhuman (though some controversy surrounds this). So basically, life force > post-retcon Beyonder in terms of raw power, according to Doom.

Uhm... Post-Retcon Beyonder? How is that? Can you explain me, please?

Originally posted by operator616
Simon is just a being made of ionic energy, he's not a conduit for all ionic energy if that's what you were implying. In the same series he was stated to have the power of a city... although in a later story he was stated to have the power of a star. Probably hyperbole though.

On second thought, you may be on to something: https://imgur.com/a/WqZhKNe

WM = Sentry > life force > Beyonder/Molecule man > everyone else in marvel.

Thoughts?

Good question.

I have to dig much informations about Wonder Man to have an opinion about it.

However, there is the power-source and the power-set to use it.

Originally posted by backup
Uhm... Post-Retcon Beyonder? How is that? Can you explain me, please?

Alright.

There is an event called Secret Wars.

The event itself is still in continuity, so everything that happened in that comic book still happened by today's standards.

However, Beyonder himself was retconned into a lower power level and having different origins.

So for example: In original comics, Beyonder was the embodiment of a realm bigger than the entire multiverse who discovered the mainstream multiverse through a pin-hole in space. This is has been retconned away: Beyonder is just a child unit of the beyonders, he is from a pocket dimension from which again... he discovered mainstream multiverse and went inside it and everything from SW 1 and 2 happened just like it originally did.

Originally posted by operator616
Alright.

There is an event called Secret Wars.

The event itself is still in continuity, so everything that happened in that comic book still happened by today's standards.

However, Beyonder himself was retconned into a lower power level and having different origins.

So for example: In original comics, Beyonder was the embodiment of a realm bigger than the entire multiverse who discovered the mainstream multiverse through a pin-hole in space. This is has been retconned away: Beyonder is just a child unit of the beyonders, he is from a pocket dimension from which again... he discovered mainstream multiverse and went inside it and everything from SW 1 and 2 happened just like it originally did.

No, why do you say that the lifeforce was above the Post-Retcon Beyonder? If Doom says that his power dwarfs the Beyonder's power before of his retcon. In this case, the lifeforce dwarfs the Pre-Retcon Beyonder's power, not?

Because there is no "pre-retcon" Beyonder in Marvel canon -- that is nothing more than a made-up battleboard term.

Doom stated the LifeForce >>> the power of Beyonder. Even though most of Beyonder's feats in SW are still canon, Doom's statement could have *only* been in reference to POST-retcon(ie. canon) Beyonder, because again: "pre-retcon" Beyonder does not exist from an in-universe POV... That is the entire point of a retcon.

Originally posted by Galan007
Because there is no "pre-retcon" Beyonder in Marvel canon -- that is nothing more than a made-up battleboard term.

Doom stated the LifeForce >>> the power of Beyonder. Even though most of Beyonder's feats in SW are still canon, Doom's statement could have *only* been in reference to POST-retcon Beyonder, because again: "pre-retcon" Beyonder doesn't canonically exist from an in-universe POV... That is the entire point of a retcon.

I agree with you Galan.

At some point, people should accept the character development and stop using those terms of pre and post-retcon.