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Wreck everyone Graviton...

https://image.ibb.co/iBkWay/8_BC83860_1_ABD_467_F_B64_B_F2_E6_D5_C32_AB6.jpg
https://image.ibb.co/iG1nFy/D6_E16_ABE_6596_4115_95_F6_0_A1_EB050_FAFA.jpg

...against Orion, son of Darkseid...

https://image.ibb.co/fJx2Fy/E91_C5_D90_FF13_4503_B390_B601_C3_D7_F12_A.jpg

...no prep.
No BFR.

Orion, Graviton has a few awful low showings like the Human Torch and Iron Man, which is a great shame as when he premiered he was one one of the greatest villains in the greatest three years of the Avengers, where you had Nefaria Michael Korvac the best Ultron run, Wundagore etc.

Nobody?
Damn. Coin flip on this one, too, then.

Well, obviously Graviton...At his best, he simultaneously beat and held every hero on Earth including Hulk, Thor, Ghost Rider, Valkyrie, Silver Surfer, Wanda etc. captive while shifting entire cities casually IIRC. That's like borderline Skyfather. He'd shove Darkseid's head up Thanos' ass like Hancock.

Orion at his best resisted Mogo's gravity pull. Plus, he has the Mulltiversal Mother Box at his disposal, so Orion kills Graviton for good.

Originally posted by Zack M
Orion at his best resisted Mogo's gravity pull. Plus, he has the Mulltiversal Mother Box at his disposal, so Orion kills Graviton for good.

This is a silly post. Classic Thor would shit on Orion's soul in a feat war contest. Surfer and Wanda are not noncompetitive either. During that era, Wanda's Chaos Magic was a true plot device.

Graviton was clearly intended to be >>>>> Herald level.

And the New Gods were intended to be greater than heralds in Godhead. A no name New God basically schooled Larfeeze, Becka schooled Sinestro, Orion schooled Hal and Mogo, also Kyle, IIRC.

Graviton stomps, with ease.

Originally posted by carver9
Orion stomps, with ease.

You are very wise, Carv.

Graviton isn't a skyfather. Most of his appearances seem to be solidly at trans level though. And he's been watered down lately from what i recall.

He is susceptible to telepathy and matter manipulation (if one could manipulate gravitons specifically), the mother box does have telepathic and matter manipulation abilities, unsure if it specifically has graviton manipulation though. So those could be used against him.

Otherwise Orion gets crushed obviously.

Originally posted by operator616
Graviton isn't a skyfather. Most of his appearances seem to be solidly at trans level though. And he's been watered down lately from what i recall.

He is susceptible to telepathy and matter manipulation (if one could manipulate gravitons specifically), the mother box does have telepathic and matter manipulation abilities, unsure if it specifically has graviton manipulation though. So those could be used against him.

Otherwise Orion gets crushed obviously.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Mother Box can phuck with Graviton or guys like Magneto. Some of the recent things the MB has done are pretty crazy and versatile.

The telepathy part will most likely work since Synapse (who did that to graviton) is merely a city level telepath. So mother box should be capable of that.

The matter manipulation part is more tricky since it was done by starbrand who seemed op af in that particular story. More-so than normal. And it hinges on mother box having specific abilities like graviton manipulation (particles of gravity).

When did Gravity Tron beat Silver Surfer?

In Mister Miracle V. 1 #9, Darkseid increased the gravity around Scott Free and Barda. They were crushing the ground beneath them. Himon was shown standing unaffected due to his Mother Box. The Mother Box can affect gravity but to what extent, I don't know.

The Graviton being debated is the pictured version though.
Sorry about any confusion.


Again, opinion.

Of course.

Graviton wins

Originally posted by deathslash
Graviton wins

How does he counter the MB??

Orion wins by reversing the polarity of Graviton's attacks.

http://i.imgur.com/MckTfKK.jpg

haha

I needed that.

. It's pretty much how Jolt and Charcoal - during the timeframe you specified in the OP - defeated him.

https://imgur.com/a/ZAaZh

Using tech from Machine Man, which cancels the gravity equation,.

How does he cancel it? By creating - you guessed it - a negative gravity current.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd199/MachineMan616/2001-8-09.jpg

IOW, Graviton has been defeated in the past by weaker opponents, who used advanced tech to reverse the polarity of gravity. Comic science, sure.

If the link doesn't work, maybe Mungi has the scan?

Btw, as I said, Jolt and Charcoals arm bands were in the exact same issue - Thundrbolts #57 - as your OP scan.

So Graviton WAS operating at those levels, unless we are to now assume Machine Man is Skyfather or Trans levels....

^^I was commenting on prep.

And thanks for the responses, it’ll be interesting to come back in here and see MB wank you may have caused, if any.

Of course, that can all be countered with a mighty ‘it wouldnt surprise me’ if Graviton nerfed whatever proof’s provided, there’s precedent fir that.

The human torch has cancelled him out with less. http://i.imgur.com/VIZWiuh.jpg

Wrong version...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wrong version... Graviton is Graviton.

I say Orion distracts him and shoves a hypo up his ass.

http://s1096.photobucket.com/user/Fernando072295/media/thorvsgraviton5.jpg.html?t=1295207120

if only graviton had ever gone up against and soundly beat down (more than once) a herald with a plot device weapon. it would have been especially helpful if that plot device has been shown to affect both matter and gravity. too bad thta hasn't happened more than once. mmm

on a different note, when has orion ever used his motherbox to mindrape anyone....? clearly without tp, orion is phukced.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
. It's pretty much how Jolt and Charcoal - during the timeframe you specified in the OP - defeated him.

https://imgur.com/a/ZAaZh

Using tech from Machine Man, which cancels the gravity equation,.

How does he cancel it? By creating - you guessed it - a negative gravity current.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd199/MachineMan616/2001-8-09.jpg

IOW, Graviton has been defeated in the past by weaker opponents, who used advanced tech to reverse the polarity of gravity. Comic science, sure.

If the link doesn't work, maybe Mungi has the scan?

Reversing polarity isn't proof that it can completely nullify gravity. And even then... can it nullify the gravity of an entire planet? Even if Orion is to nullify the gravity in a local area, Graviton still could just lift a nearby island or city and plummet it on Orion.

Overpowering Graviton's gravity powers is not an option, imo. He's had his losses for sure -- as ive already mentioned -- but his gravity powers ranges from being unable to affect Vision's mass/density (even though he has in other encounters, easily) to subduing Earth's super heroes and lifting multiple cities more than once. So i don't think you can say with any kind of confidence that the mother box could overpower graviton in a gravity battle.

Originally posted by leonidas

on a different note, when has orion ever used his motherbox to mindrape anyone....? clearly without tp, orion is phukced.

Yes it has that's why i mentioned it as being the best viable option, imo.

Orion w/ motherbox mindwiped Hammond who's a formidable telepath: https://imgur.com/DNfSzQk

Oh I'm not saying he over powers him.

I'm saying he effectively redirects it.

....which is effectively overpowering him. To redirect his power is to take control of the gravitational forces that Graviton is throwing at him, and then send them back.

And do you know of any instances where the mother box redirected gravitational forces, in particular? Because without that proof it's just an assumption, really.

My 'proof', whcih, admittedly, is shaky, is based on the assumption that in the very same storyline where Graviton is phucking with Marvel Earth, Jolt and Charcoal jury rigged some random parts of Machine Man, and were completely immune to his powers.

Machine Man's powers were based on his tech reversing the polarity of gravity.

Which I am confident Orion's Motherbox could do. Based on it being able to reverse polarities of attacks (apparently, in comics, that's what gravity is...).

So it's less Orion facing the same attacks, and more Graviton - this specific incarnation, and not lowballed - facing the same attack, and being defeated.

IMHO, if we have to argue that Orion would win through telepathy possibly (I think Orion has used telepathy in an offensive manner less than Thor has used matter manipulation) then that says all that needs to be said....

Originally posted by operator616
Graviton isn't a skyfather. Most of his appearances seem to be solidly at trans level though. And he's been watered down lately from what i recall.

He is susceptible to telepathy and matter manipulation (if one could manipulate gravitons specifically), the mother box does have telepathic and matter manipulation abilities, unsure if it specifically has graviton manipulation though. So those could be used against him.

Otherwise Orion gets crushed obviously.

I think to do what he did in that storyline, he'd have to be a Skyfather or close to it. It might not be Skyfather in scope (I.e. he wasn't tossing Galaxies around with his gravity), but in terms of relative power, it was. Personally, I think it's way beyond Trans to accomplished what he did imo.

The Mother Box has a host of powers it has randomly displayed, but personally, I think it's far more likely, and that Graviton would effortlessly crush Orion after dismissing his Astro-Force blast more often than Orion strategies to use telepathy instead of leading wiht a frontal assault, multiple times.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
IMHO, if we have to argue that Orion would win through telepathy possibly (I think Orion has used telepathy in an offensive manner less than Thor has used matter manipulation) then that says all that needs to be said....


The Mother Box has a host of powers it has randomly displayed, but personally, I think it's far more likely, and that Graviton would effortlessly crush Orion after dismissing his Astro-Force blast more often than Orion strategies to use telepathy instead of leading wiht a frontal assault, multiple times.


That i agree. I was just trying to make this fair. Because if Orion doesn't use MB's exotic powers he gets crushed instantly.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

I think to do what he did in that storyline, he'd have to be a Skyfather or close to it. It might not be Skyfather in scope (I.e. he wasn't tossing Galaxies around with his gravity), but in terms of relative power, it was. Personally, I think it's way beyond Trans to accomplished what he did imo.


In that particular story i wouldn't disagree that he was skyfather-ish. Nor do i disagree with it being based on relative power as opposed to collateral damage. All that is fine.

What i disagree with is you using his most powerful portrayal to base your opinion. It was by far his most impressive showing and on average he's portrayed as trans.

yeah, that was a bit of an outlier. his standard levels are plenty high. could he simply remove MB or can orion mentally control it, have it teleport back to him for instance? i don't recall that being the case but he may have done so at some random point. right now we're just trying to make this competitive though. i'd take graviton for a vast majority in this. graviton could potentially take on the league in the same manner polaris did so.

But that's the version being used in this thread.

And that's the version Machine Man's parts defeated.....

I made a respect thread for graviton and machine man... making me the victor

https://i.imgur.com/bImr3Mq.gif

Do you think the Motherbox can replicate what Machine Man's parts did?

IMO, the MB is enough of a plot device to replicate almost any technology if the plot calls for it.

Originally posted by operator616
That i agree. I was just trying to make this fair. Because if Orion doesn't use MB's exotic powers he gets crushed instantly.



In that particular story i wouldn't disagree that he was skyfather-ish. Nor do i disagree with it being based on relative power as opposed to collateral damage. All that is fine.

What i disagree with is you using his most powerful portrayal to base your opinion. It was by far his most impressive showing and on average he's portrayed as trans.

Fair enough.

The OP specified, "wreck-everyone" Graviton, which is why I'm not using The mean, but rather 2 standard deviations away to the + if his showings were plotted on a standard normal distribution with a mean of 0.

I agree. I think this was just miscommunication.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
. It's pretty much how Jolt and Charcoal - during the timeframe you specified in the OP - defeated him.

https://imgur.com/a/ZAaZh

Using tech from Machine Man, which cancels the gravity equation,.

How does he cancel it? By creating - you guessed it - a negative gravity current.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd199/MachineMan616/2001-8-09.jpg

IOW, Graviton has been defeated in the past by weaker opponents, who used advanced tech to reverse the polarity of gravity. Comic science, sure.


This is the fight with Jolt etc. They didn't just negate gravity and fly whatever....they were completely immune to his powers, thanks to the arm bands.

And again, this was 'wreck everyone' Graviton.

what makes you think orion would even think to reverse polarity? he's a brawler above all. could MB be said to be able to do something? yeah, probably. maybe. but the times he uses MB for that type of offense is, afaik, enormously rare. i'd still take graviton for a huge majority. also begs the question if beating him were so easy, you'd think stark's armors would have been able to come up with something one of the dozen or so times they met.... jolt/charcoal feels a little pissy which is another reason why i don't see the tactic as being all that viable for orion.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Do you think the Motherbox can replicate what Machine Man's parts did?

Yes. Keep in mind machine mans parts were losing its potency as time went on

Now would Orion in the heat of the moment and in character do that and actually beat graviton with that trick?*shrugs*

Originally posted by leonidas
what makes you think orion would even think to reverse polarity? he's a brawler above all. could MB be said to be able to do something? yeah, probably. maybe. but the times he uses MB for that type of offense is, afaik, enormously rare. i'd still take graviton for a huge majority. also begs the question if beating him were so easy, you'd think stark's armors would have been able to come up with something one of the dozen or so times they met.... jolt/charcoal feels a little pissy which is another reason why i don't see the tactic as being all that viable for orion.

1. I've already posted Orion....doing exactly that, reversing polarity.

2. Jolt/Charcoal only feels PIS...why? Stark doesn't fly by using negative gravity, he uses repulsors.

In fact, no one else flies like that, IRC.

3. Why isn't it PIS that it hasn't been used more often on Graviton? He was kept securely under lock and key in the Raft, for example. Hardly Skyfather/trans there.

That's like saying Magneto BFRing anyone is PIS - because if it were that easy, he'd do it all the time. Or Superman using his speed is PIS. Or ....you get my drift.

If you want to argue CIS, sure. I can see that. But then,as I showed, when he was about to be defeated, THAT'S precisely when he used the MB to reverse polarities.

So match starts, he uses the AF, screaming about being the War Dog of Apokolips,the Hunter of Gods, whatever.

Graviton shields himself, then crushes Orion.

OrionTHEN tells MB to reverse, becomes immune,wins.

Assuming MB doesn't just do it herself.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Orion wins by reversing the polarity of Graviton's attacks.

http://i.imgur.com/MckTfKK.jpg

I never understood in that Thunderbolts story how Graviton avoided creating a black hole and becoming a mindless rock monster.

I never understood in that Thunderbolts story how Graviton avoided creating a black hole and becoming a mindless rock monster. Bad and inconsistent writing in my opinion. The writer didn't get the Oozaru Rock Monster aspect of Gravitons powerset... Clearly a hack.

Originally posted by leonidas
what makes you think orion would even think to reverse polarity? he's a brawler above all. could MB be said to be able to do something? yeah, probably. maybe. but the times he uses MB for that type of offense is, afaik, enormously rare. i'd still take graviton for a huge majority. also begs the question if beating him were so easy, you'd think stark's armors would have been able to come up with something one of the dozen or so times they met.... jolt/charcoal feels a little pissy which is another reason why i don't see the tactic as being all that viable for orion.

Orion has used Mother Box(or the Astro-Force) more strategically or creatively when facing opponents different from someone he could brawl with, like how he beat an energy being left from Old Gods technology. So him rarely doing things like that could simply be because he rarely has to. The better argument would be if Orion would decide to do that in time. With the "common knowledge" thing, he very well may avoid even trying to fight the way he normally does from the start and use Mother Box immediately.

Way I see it, either one of two things happen:

1. Orion opens with polarity reversing, 'he has the powerset'. This is what would be termed CBR debating. Orion wins.

2. Orion opens with blasting, maybe punching, definitely screaming. In character. It fails. Graviton is too powerful to defeat like this (you guys can argue if the Astro Force is < Graviton. Orion starts losing.

THEN he reverses polarity. As seen on panel, it's what he does.
Orion then wins.

So either he wins outright, wins through blasting after a long battle,or wins through exotic means when blasting doesn't work.

By the by, when Orion was on the Moon, the shockwaves from his attacks were threatening to tear the Earth apart:
https://imgur.com/a/OWjSv


Delta, what separates MB from AF?

Got to agree Orion wins. Graviton is on average appearance (not this outlier) a chump regardless of power level.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
1. I've already posted Orion....doing exactly that, reversing polarity.

2. Jolt/Charcoal only feels PIS...why? Stark doesn't fly by using negative gravity, he uses repulsors.

In fact, no one else flies like that, IRC.


Repulsors are electro-magnetic fields which focus ionized particles. And hardball has contained Gravity (the character who can also manipulate gravity) in... you guessed it, EM fields.

Crystal is able able to tap into the gravitational field of the earth and yet she was helpless in Graviton's grip

Wonder man has nullified anti-gravity with his ionic form iirc and yet... he has lost to Graviton several times.

That's why you have to take into account power levels and not just power sets, you're putting too much stock in that single scan of yours.

Originally posted by operator616
That i agree. I was just trying to make this fair. Because if Orion doesn't use MB's exotic powers he gets crushed instantly.



In that particular story i wouldn't disagree that he was skyfather-ish. Nor do i disagree with it being based on relative power as opposed to collateral damage. All that is fine.

What i disagree with is you using his most powerful portrayal to base your opinion. It was by far his most impressive showing and on average he's portrayed as trans.

Don't forget that Orion can turn intangible via the Mother Box, so it's entirely possible that he won't get crushed.

Graviton has manipulated Vision's intangible form. So intangibility is not an option either. Telepathy is the best option as ive said. At least imo.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
.
Delta, what separates MB from AF?

Not sure what you mean. How he uses them?

Originally posted by operator616
Repulsors are electro-magnetic fields which focus ionized particles. And hardball has contained Gravity (the character who can also manipulate gravity) in... you guessed it, EM fields.

Crystal is able able to tap into the gravitational field of the earth and yet she was helpless in Graviton's grip

Wonder man has nullified anti-gravity with his ionic form iirc and yet... he has lost to Graviton several times.

That's why you have to take into account power levels and not just power sets, you're putting too much stock in that single scan of yours.

Agreed.

Hence why I said someone more au fait with Motherboxes could showcase their power levels. I've shown he is capable with the powerset, others can show power levels.

And again, all your examples are nice....but I specifically used the version as named in the OP. And THAT version was defeated by Machine Man and HIS power level. Proving you hardly need the gravitational field of the earth or whatever levels (i.e. planetary) to become completely immune to Graviton.

Originally posted by operator616
Graviton has manipulated Vision's intangible form. So intangibility is not an option either. Telepathy is the best option as ive said. At least imo.

And Orion overpowered Mogo's gravitational pull, right? And Mogo was powerful enough to affect an army of Black Lanterns.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Not sure what you mean. How he uses them?

Well, we're on the subject of 'is Orion's MB able to reverse Gravitons polarity or whatever comic book science is there, thus making Orion completely immune to his powers'.

I think on a powerset level, yes, he can, but apparently one needs to show just how powerful an MB is. And obviously there's the scans of Orion containing a bomb that could destroy the universe,but that was the AF.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, we're on the subject of 'is Orion's MB able to reverse Gravitons polarity or whatever comic book science is there, thus making Orion completely immune to his powers'.

I think on a powerset level, yes, he can, but apparently one needs to show just how powerful an MB is. And obviously there's the scans of Orion containing a bomb that could destroy the universe,but that was the AF.

Yeah, it's separate from MB. But if we're talking scale of power, didn't a MB manipulate the entire Central Power Battery?

*shrugs* that would fit. But I'm also aware we're crossing n52 and pre.

I'm also interested in how Gravitons shields can hold up.

Originally posted by Zack M
And Orion overpowered Mogo's gravitational pull, right? And Mogo was powerful enough to affect an army of Black Lanterns.

Going by that logic, Thor has tanked blasts from the celestials and yet Graviton subdued him, just like he did to all the avengers. And without much trouble to boot.

You can see where this is going i hope -- we go by average portrayal. That's not to dismiss what you just mentioned. It's a compelling case it's just that Graviton crushing Orion is the more likely scenario.

Originally posted by operator616
Going by that logic, Thor has tanked blasts from the celestials and yet Graviton subdued him, just like he did to all the avengers. And without much trouble to boot.

You can see where this is going i hope -- we go by average portrayal. That's not to dismiss what you just mentioned. It's a compelling case it's just that Graviton crushing Orion is the more likely scenario.

But if we use averages, we then average out one high showing (Marvel Earth) with one low showing (Machine Man).

And the average is far below what you guys are selling. Because Machine Man is very very VERY much below Thor, let alone Marvel Earth.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
*shrugs* that would fit. But I'm also aware we're crossing n52 and pre.

I'm also interested in how Gravitons shields can hold up.

I thought, despite things still conflicting, the New Gods now are still the ones before FLASHPOINT, like the case for Pre-CRISIS and Post-CRISIS? But think I already saw at least one example of New 52 brought up, so figured that's what we were going with.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But if we use averages, we then average out one high showing (Marvel Earth) with one low showing (Machine Man).

And the average is far below what you guys are selling. Because Machine Man is very very VERY much below Thor, let alone Marvel Earth.

Well, you can blame riv for that. If we allow all of Graviton's showings at least it becomes clear that Graviton is above heralds...

Originally posted by Delta1938
I thought, despite things still conflicting, the New Gods now are still the ones before FLASHPOINT, like the case for Pre-CRISIS and Post-CRISIS? But think I already saw at least one example of New 52 brought up, so figured that's what we were going with.

It was actually stated in N52 that the new gods are imprevious to space/time continuum changes. Also that there are only one version of them throughout the multiverse.

Originally posted by operator616
Well, you can blame riv for that. If we allow all of Graviton's showings at least it becomes clear that Graviton is above heralds...

Allowing all of his showings also opens him up to a lot of lows too. Like Human Torch, for example.

Originally posted by operator616
It was actually stated in N52 that the new gods are imprevious to space/time continuum changes. Also that there are only one version of them throughout the multiverse.

Then we have Orion using his MB with the Central Power Battery,based on what Delta said.

So power levels are not an issue.... especially when we average Machine Man and Marvel Earth, lol.

Originally posted by operator616
Going by that logic, Thor has tanked blasts from the celestials and yet Graviton subdued him, just like he did to all the avengers. And without much trouble to boot.

You can see where this is going i hope -- we go by average portrayal. That's not to dismiss what you just mentioned. It's a compelling case it's just that Graviton crushing Orion is the more likely scenario.

Yeah, but you're comparing two different attacks. Orion specifically resisted a gravity attack by the most powerful of the green lantern corps.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Yeah, it's separate from MB. But if we're talking scale of power, didn't a MB manipulate the entire Central Power Battery?

During Darkseid War, iirc.

i'm not sure why something as deux ex machina as that machine man plan is so low to you. apparently he flies by "cancelling out the gravity equation" and he used this "cancelling gravity equation tech" to make the t-bolts immune to his direct influence (graviton was still beating the crap out of them for a while even without being able to directly influence them). i'm also not sure how you're getting "reversing polarity=cancelling gravity equation". they were made directly immune to graviton's powers. cancelling=/=reversing in any way i can see.... at best orion might be able to reverse some effects, but i don't see why he'd be immune to graviton's powers at all. and even indirectly, graviton's powers can be deadly.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Allowing all of his showings also opens him up to a lot of lows too. Like Human Torch, for example.

Then we have Orion using his MB with the Central Power Battery,based on what Delta said.

So power levels are not an issue.... especially when we average Machine Man and Marvel Earth, lol.

Yes but it also gives us a good idea of his average as opposed to the two ends of extremes. I don't think anyone would disagree he's above heralds, tbh. It was quite clear throughout his appearances. I did admit that he was watered down recently though.

Yes...but motherbox connecting to CPB is an unquantifiable showing to say the least. old school sinestro (who was considerably less powerful than current) has tapped into it as well. So did hal. Im just saying im not sure if it says anything definitive.

The motherbox actually has feats that pertain its scope being planet level, that's not the issue i had with it. I was hoping to see a feat where it specifically had a planet level gravity feat.

Originally posted by Zack M
Yeah, but you're comparing two different attacks. Orion specifically resisted a gravity attack by the most powerful of the green lantern corps.

Thor has several gravitational resisting feats if that's what you're looking for, it's just that the celestial feat is more impressive. He's resisted the gravity of a star iirc. And pulled a quinjet in close proximity with the sun.

And yet Graviton could stick him to a block of Rock like a Fly to Flypaper.

Originally posted by Zack M
And Orion overpowered Mogo's gravitational pull, right? And Mogo was powerful enough to affect an army of Black Lanterns. lol, are we honestly going to act like the average black lantern was that strong? I specifically remember Batman and his family taking on multiple black lanterns with flamethrowers.

Mogo pulled in GLs as well... and not all BLs were pussies. So it was pretty impressive.

Eithery way, the gravitational field exists at every point in space so the forces each of them are subjected to, are the same. So if it pulled one powerful being down, it's a testament to Mogo's power being able to pull an army down.

I think it's safe to say that New Gods, specifically Orion are around trans level in Godhead. The way they handleded Green Lanterns like canon fodders was impressive.

Originally posted by deathslash
lol, are we honestly going to act like the average black lantern was that strong? I specifically remember Batman and his family taking on multiple black lanterns with flamethrowers.

I don't recall that. Most BL needed a special attack to defeat them. White light or whatever it was called.

Come on Zack most GL's are cannon fodder. It's almost as dangerous putting on the Green as being a red shirt with Kirk on an away mission in the original Star Trek.

I'm not talking about most GL. Orion tooled Hal, twice. And this is in his own book.

Only in Godhead, Zack. They wanted to hype the new gods, that's all.

At that same time, Orion was getting trashed by the minotaur and Hera. As well as getting stomped by an actual trans tier (First Born) in Azzarello's wonder woman series.

Originally posted by operator616
Only in Godhead, Zack. They wanted to hype the new gods, that's all.

At that same time, Orion was getting trashed by the minotaur and Hera. As well as getting stomped by an actual trans tier (First Born) in Azzarello's wonder woman series. I could make that argument for Thunderbolts and Graviton. He has never been portrayed at that level before or since.

Originally posted by Zack M
I'm not talking about most GL. Orion tooled Hal, twice. And this is in his own book. I haven't read it to be honest, I think I will.

Why is First Born considered a trans tier?

Originally posted by operator616
Only in Godhead, Zack. They wanted to hype the new gods, that's all.

At that same time, Orion was getting trashed by the minotaur and Hera. As well as getting stomped by an actual trans tier (First Born) in Azzarello's wonder woman series.

Even after Godhead, Orion was treating Hal like he was nothing and orions battle with a Golem trashed a star system or whatever. Orion actually put up a decent fight with First Born. Azzarello sucks with power levels.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
I could make that argument for Thunderbolts and Graviton. He has never been portrayed at that level before or since.

Except for the fact that they're not comparable at all.

Orion being trans in Godhead is outlier because he's a herald on average. And i agree that Graviton being a skyfather is an outlier but he was still trans in several other appearances.

Originally posted by carver9
Why is First Born considered a trans tier?

Because he beat Orion and put Diana in a coma. And went on to beat Apollo even when weakened. Then proceeded to stomp Artemis, Diana, Hermes and Dionysis. And then later Hades as well.

Have you read the series?

Carver just looks at the pretty pictures.

Originally posted by Zack M
Even after Godhead, Orion was treating Hal like he was nothing and orions battle with a Golem trashed a star system or whatever. Orion actually put up a decent fight with First Born. Azzarello sucks with power levels.

Like nothing? Not sure i agree.

But yeah, i admit that i was impressed recently with Orion due to that feat. I still definitely don't think he's trans tier, but you can disagree if you like. I don't particularly care one way or another about Orion's standing.

Originally posted by operator616
Like nothing? Not sure i agree.

But yeah, i admit that i was impressed recently with Orion due to that feat. I still definitely don't think he's trans tier, but you can disagree if you like. I don't particularly care one way or another about Orion's standing.

What tier is he when he's at his true form?

Originally posted by operator616
Graviton has manipulated Vision's intangible form. So intangibility is not an option either.



In a different thread, it was pointed out that there are different methods of intangibility. From vibrating atoms to entering another dimension to spreading atoms apart. It was stated that what works against one form of intangibility might not work on the others. Damn, I wish I knew what thread it was. Very interesting read.

Originally posted by operator616
Except for the fact that they're not comparable at all.

Orion being trans in Godhead is outlier because he's a herald on average. And i agree that Graviton being a skyfather is an outlier but he was still trans in several other appearances.



Because he beat Orion and put Diana in a coma. And went on to beat Apollo even when weakened. Then proceeded to stomp Artemis, Diana, Hermes and Dionysis. And then later Hades as well.

Have you read the series?

Yes, even posted scans throughout KMC on the character. Wouldnt consider these trans tier fts. He did beat Orion but it Orion made him fight for it.

Originally posted by operator616


Yes...but motherbox connecting to CPB is an unquantifiable showing to say the least. old school sinestro (who was considerably less powerful than current) has tapped into it as well. So did hal. Im just saying im not sure if it says anything definitive.

The motherbox actually has feats that pertain its scope being planet level, that's not the issue i had with it. I was hoping to see a feat where it specifically had a planet level gravity feat.


"Unquantifiable" move, gotcha.

Got the scans for Hal and Sinestro? It seems what a Mother Box did was different from what I remember Hal doing in EMERALD TWILIGHT (though know he did it at least one other time).

We see the scale it's manipulated energy. We see it's done telepathy on a high scale. Not a stretch to think it could do gravity on a high scale.

Originally posted by deathslash
lol, are we honestly going to act like the average black lantern was that strong? I specifically remember Batman and his family taking on multiple black lanterns with flamethrowers.

Black Lanterns were really just zombies of whoever the Power Ring reanimated, with reanimation and regeneration being all they gave. Lots of Black Lanterns were low level superhuman or even just normal humans when alive. I don't remember the Bat Family facing anybody particularly impressive. I'll need to check to see who the ones Mogo beat were, but it's not necessarily comparable.

First Born also survived the collapse of a Boom Tube.

Originally posted by Zack M
First Born also survived the collapse of a Boom Tube.

How powerful is the collapse of a boom tube?

Originally posted by operator616
Except for the fact that they're not comparable at all.

Orion being trans in Godhead is outlier because he's a herald on average. And i agree that Graviton being a skyfather is an outlier but he was still trans in several other appearances.



And he has also been a lot less, The Hypodermic, The Rock Monster, The Human Torch, Iron Man etc.

Originally posted by Zack M
What tier is he when he's at his true form?

What are you referring to?

Originally posted by carver9
Yes, even posted scans throughout KMC on the character. Wouldnt consider these trans tier fts. He did beat Orion but it Orion made him fight for it.

Ok, but you ignored the others he beat...

Originally posted by Delta1938
"Unquantifiable" move, gotcha.

Got the scans for Hal and Sinestro? It seems what a Mother Box did was different from what I remember Hal doing in EMERALD TWILIGHT (though know he did it at least one other time).

We see the scale it's manipulated energy. We see it's done telepathy on a high scale. Not a stretch to think it could do gravity on a high scale.



https://imgur.com/a/Bka3RFC


And i omitted from my post the powerful beings who were capable of doing that (like parallax, maaldor, anti-monitor --- evil star iirc too since it was a very old story). And the hal instance was ET.

And telekinesis too. I never disagreed with that. I was just saying that i would like to have confirmation. I do admit that your (and DS's) stance do have merit.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
And he has also been a lot less, The Hypodermic, The Rock Monster, The Human Torch, Iron Man etc.

He was portrayed as a team buster several times. That's different from Orion's case.

Originally posted by operator616

https://imgur.com/a/Bka3RFC


And i omitted from my post the powerful beings who were capable of doing that (like parallax, maaldor, anti-monitor --- evil star iirc too since it was a very old story). And the hal instance was ET.

And telekinesis too. I never disagreed with that. I was just saying that i would like to have confirmation. I do admit that your (and DS's) stance do have merit.

So Sinestro did it over a period of time with his sentience having been placed in the CPB(or am I wrong and he did it himself?). I'd have to say this is different from the Mother Box. I'd have to say it's the same with Hal(but a shorter period; assuming by Parallax you're talking EMERALD TWILIGHT). Haven't seen the others(or at least don't remember Anti-Monitor if it happened during COIE) but Anti-Monitor and Maaldor(if I'm remembering him right) aren't exactly some average Top-Tiers. Never seen Evil Star do it(and I guess you're not sure if he did or you're misremembering).

You mean Mother Box had a high level telekinesis example too? Not sure if that's what you meant or just it's displayed that too. Regardless of if Mother Box can effect gravity to that scale (but like I've said, we've seen it do high level scale feats in other departments), it has the ability to beat Graviton(if not countering his gravity manipulation, telepathy, and possibly other avenues), and one of the primary arguments I've seen against Orion is he's a brawler, but we've seen him fight differently against opponents that face punching or conventional blasts aren't going to work against.

Originally posted by Delta1938
So Sinestro did it over a period of time with his sentience having been placed in the CPB(or am I wrong and he did it himself?). I'd have to say this is different from the Mother Box. I'd have to say it's the same with Hal(but a shorter period; assuming by Parallax you're talking EMERALD TWILIGHT). Haven't seen the others(or at least don't remember Anti-Monitor if it happened during COIE) but Anti-Monitor and Maaldor(if I'm remembering him right) aren't exactly some average Top-Tiers. Never seen Evil Star do it(and I guess you're not sure if he did or you're misremembering).


The time frame was never given, and while he was imprisoned, he wasn't in CPB from my recollection. He specifically said that he was controlling it with his mind/power. Check out the arc if you like it's from GL #223-224.

Also, when i referred to Hal, i was referring to Emerald Dawn I, not Emerald Twilight. I overlooked the "twilight" part. that's when Hal was able to tap into the CPB to subdue a creature. Emerald Twilight is technically Parallax and not just Hal, so i was really referring to Emerald Dawn #6: https://imgur.com/a/8BVdcQ0

An important note is that this a rookie and thus pre-amp Hal. He got a more powerful ring in the mid 70s. Those are still canon and there have been specific mentions of them in post-Crisis continuity. While in the N52 continuity there have been also plenty of mentions to those post-Crisis arcs.

Here is the Anti-Monitor part where he taps into the CPB and attacks them with it (it's from a COIE tie-in, GL #194): https://imgur.com/nCUSRsR

I wasn't sure about Evil star since it's been long since ive read those comics, but you're making me track them all down for you, lol. So here's the Evil Star instance from GL #44: https://imgur.com/Qtu5H5h

I should say though that Johns retconned all the guardians pre-Crisis defeats though. By establishing that they don't interfere. This story is too old as well which is why i was reluctant to mention it in the first place. And the guardians were less powerful at the time. Im well aware that Anti Monitor and Maaldor aren't really relevant, which is why i didn't mention them and resorted to the Hal/Sinestro instances.

Originally posted by Delta1938

You mean Mother Box had a high level telekinesis example too? Not sure if that's what you meant or just it's displayed that too. Regardless of if Mother Box can effect gravity to that scale (but like I've said, we've seen it do high level scale feats in other departments), it has the ability to beat Graviton(if not countering his gravity manipulation, telepathy, and possibly other avenues), and one of the primary arguments I've seen against Orion is he's a brawler, but we've seen him fight differently against opponents that face punching or conventional blasts aren't going to work against.

It amped Superboy's tactile telekinesis to planet-level, allowing him to get a shield over Apokolips (which, in some depictions at least, is bigger than your conventional planet).

I see where you're coming from though, but you'll get no argument from me on this one. As ive said, it is a reasonable stance. I still stand by my telepathy argument because we have a direct comparison here. Mother box was able to mindwipe Hammond who is > Synapse, TP-wise. Thus, at least to me, this is the most viable option. The gravity argument on the other hand is messy, since it hinges on power scaling it off MB's scope. And even then there's no guarantee at all that it can overpower Graviton's powers.

Yeah, and according to Lobdlell (I think he wrote that issue), Hector Hammond is Onslaught level in telepathy. So, if a mother box can mind wipe him, it should not have any problem with Graviton.

To beat Graviton, Orion would have to utilize the astro force. He would have to go high end astro force usage. I don't subscribe to him just teching his way for a win. That whole thing with machine man was so plot deviceyy... Orion would go blasting the shiet out of Graviton 90 percent of the time before he even thinks of "turning off" graviton's powers.
In any case, he does have some astro force feats that punch out of his perceived weight class. This is a war of attrition.

Originally posted by operator616
The time frame was never given, and while he was imprisoned, he wasn't in CPB from my recollection. He specifically said that he was controlling it with his mind/power. Check out the arc if you like it's from GL #223-224.

Checked it, CPB was actually self destructing basically, because of a failsafe the Guardians put in if someone from Sinestro's race were killed. Yellow impurity was even taking over. It seemed to have something to do with Sinestro pulling it off, based on what he said. I thought he'd been imprisoned in the CPB before, but whether he was or not, this isn't one of the times as the GLC voted to execute him and had done it, and his sentience went into the CPB.



Not sure what Hal did here. Did he just tap into the CPB or drain it? It doesn't look like he drained it, but that's just on what you showed. I guess I can check later if you're not able to tell without tracking it down.



Nope, I hadn't read Anti-Monitor example (read very few COIE tie-ins) but cool to see.

Not sure what Evil Star means by "negate" since it's not clear if he's doing that right then in the scan since it's glowing. If he actually turned it off or just blocked it from powering others. Either wouldn't be the best showing for the CPB, but blocking in a way so Power Rings didn't work isn't the same as what the MB did on merging with it and seeming to take control.

Gotta ask why you're bringing up the Guardian retcon for the CPB? My guess on Evil Star being because things being more income in those days, level of power not yet being established(haven't read enough of GL from then to know if this would be the case) or both. Also I misread what you said about those examples.



Far as I know, it's only been depicted as absolutely massive when they do talk about the size of either New Genesis or Apokolips(though they usually don't talk about the size). And that's pretty cool, but, and this may yet again be something you have to check was it Superboy was directly amped or it used TK to boost his? More curiosity than makes a difference in MB's scale of power.



I agree the telepathy route is more concrete, but if MB has shown massive scale of power multiple other areas, it's certainly plausible he could manipulate gravity on that scale. It not working on Graviton's powers is an argument, the example DS brought up could be a really low showing, could have been accomplished differently enough than what Orion has done with MB, but still a plausible tactic.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
To beat Graviton, Orion would have to utilize the astro force. He would have to go high end astro force usage. I don't subscribe to him just teching his way for a win. That whole thing with machine man was so plot deviceyy... Orion would go blasting the shiet out of Graviton 90 percent of the time before he even thinks of "turning off" graviton's powers.
In any case, he does have some astro force feats that punch out of his perceived weight class. This is a war of attrition.

Machine Man example was so plot devicey? Damn, if only Orion had something on him, that's part of his standard equipment, that's proven by both him and others to be very plot devicey. If only.....

As for him blasting Graviton, I've pointed out that the argument of him being more a brute force fighter is largely because that's mostly what he faces, but we have seen him go different routes, sometimes off the bat, when facing something he can't punch it blast his way through. The rule of basic knowledge should give him enough that he very well may be going other routes off the bat.

Anyone bring up the fact New Gods villains include Gravity Guards?

They draw off heavy mass galaxies.

Scans?

Originally posted by Zack M
Scans?

https://i2.wp.com/kryptonradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/ScreenHunter_4585-Aug.-28-10.58.jpg?resize=890%2C869

Nice.

If they are the "most loyal" of Darkseids minions, it stands to reason Orion's tangled with them before.

Odds are, Mother Box's nullify their powers as easily as Infinity Man did.

So what did I miss?

Originally posted by abhilegend
So what did I miss?

Were you gone?

Don't be fooled. Cd missed you the most.

Also are we talking about the same Graviton who gets punked by Iron man here? Thunderbolts was a cool showing but that's as likely as Orion going all cosmic and incinerating Graviton on spot.

As for what you missed, a few days ago Pr was looking for a GL expert.

Originally posted by cdtm
As for what you missed, a few days ago Pr was looking for a GL expert.
Should have asked Operator, he can provide all the low showings.

But look at this trans tier character.

https://s22.postimg.cc/8nx502r2l/1080589-im1.jpg https://s22.postimg.cc/5h2lggecd/1080590-im2.jpg https://s22.postimg.cc/mhlhp4z3h/1080591-im3.jpg https://s22.postimg.cc/x4faukue5/1080592-im4.jpg

Magnificent, isn't he?

I don't get the low balling in this thread

Concerning the Iron Man scene that was AFTER Graviton suffered a serious head injury. Clearly intended to impact his abilities which was shown through later on in Iron man. Right upto Graviton killing himself.

When he's heathy he makes shields easily to repel the FULL force of Cable, Vision, Deadpool, Quicksilver, Winter Solider, Captain America (Sam Wilson), Captain America (Steve Rogers) Iron Man (Tony Stark), Rogue, Nova (Sam Alexander) Spider-Man (Miles Morales), Brother Voodoo, Ms.Marvel (Kamala Khan), Human Torch, Synapse (Emily Guerrero), and Thor (Jane Foster). Interesting to note the new female Quasar ends up breaking the shield in a feat similar to her earth shield busting featt.

1. http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/A_Flight10/Avengers%20Standoff%20-%20Assault%20On%20Pleasant%20Hill%20Omega%20001-017_zpswbaksxyr.jpg
2. http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/A_Flight10/Avengers%20Standoff%20-%20Assault%20On%20Pleasant%20Hill%20Omega%20001-018_zpsuxhgrt5t.jpg
3. http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/A_Flight10/Avengers%20Standoff%20-%20Assault%20On%20Pleasant%20Hill%20Omega%20001-019_zpsbekmkd9t.jpg

Abhilegends first post in this thread is an out of context lowball about a Graviton not at his best? Shocking.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Abhilegends first post in this thread is an out of context lowball about a Graviton not at his best? Shocking.
Oh.
So i didnt miss anything. Cool.

Originally posted by -K-M-
I don't get the low balling in this thread

Concerning the Iron Man scene that was AFTER Graviton suffered a serious head injury. Clearly intended to impact his abilities which was shown through later on in Iron man. Right upto Graviton killing himself.

When he's heathy he makes shields easily to repel the FULL force of Cable, Vision, Deadpool, Quicksilver, Winter Solider, Captain America (Sam Wilson), Captain America (Steve Rogers) Iron Man (Tony Stark), Rogue, Nova (Sam Alexander) Spider-Man (Miles Morales), Brother Voodoo, Ms.Marvel (Kamala Khan), Human Torch, Synapse (Emily Guerrero), and Thor (Jane Foster). Interesting to note the new female Quasar ends up breaking the shield in a feat similar to her earth shield busting featt.

1. http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/A_Flight10/Avengers%20Standoff%20-%20Assault%20On%20Pleasant%20Hill%20Omega%20001-017_zpswbaksxyr.jpg
2. http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/A_Flight10/Avengers%20Standoff%20-%20Assault%20On%20Pleasant%20Hill%20Omega%20001-018_zpsuxhgrt5t.jpg
3. http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/A_Flight10/Avengers%20Standoff%20-%20Assault%20On%20Pleasant%20Hill%20Omega%20001-019_zpsbekmkd9t.jpg
Was it stated that the head injury weakened him somehow?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Was it stated that the head injury weakened him somehow?



Sarcasm?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Abhilegends first post in this thread is an out of context lowball about a Graviton not at his best? Shocking.
Right, I forgot to show Human Torch or Spider-Man beating him down like a dog.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Sarcasm?
ermm

Originally posted by abhilegend
ermm

Youre not doing yourself any favors asking if a head injury affects combat performance if you sre bring serious is why I ask.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Machine Man example was so plot devicey? Damn, if only Orion had something on him, that's part of his standard equipment, that's proven by both him and others to be very plot devicey. If only.....

As for him blasting Graviton, I've pointed out that the argument of him being more a brute force fighter is largely because that's mostly what he faces, but we have seen him go different routes, sometimes off the bat, when facing something he can't punch it blast his way through. The rule of basic knowledge should give him enough that he very well may be going other routes off the bat.

Exactly.

This match is pretty much Orion's to lose. Graviton has lost to Machine Man's plot device parts and tech, and can lose to TP. Arguably the Astro Force, being able to contain a universal bomb, and cause earthquakes on Earth sufficient to tear the Earth apart WHILST HE'S ON THE MOON is also beyond Graviton to shield against.

Whereas the Graviton camp is basically scaling and using ABC logic.

'Look at Surfer's highest feats! Look at Thor's highest feats! Graviton made FOOLS of them, fools I tell you! He's above all that!'

Meanwhile Mungi is rubbing himself.

And for those saying ooooh Machine Man is a low showing....aren't we meant to take those into account? I don't think it's an outlier, I think him taking out Marvel Earth is an outlier!!

Originally posted by Damborgson
Youre not doing yourself any favors asking if a head injury affects combat performance if you sre bring serious is why I ask.
He was in a mentally damaged condition, he wasn't running around with a head injury.

Mental blocks, one might say

But on the fly, a Motherbox can replicate what the Thundrbolts did with prep.....

It can do it without any prep. As seen with the scan I used to support my stance.

He was attacked, Orion just, whilst losing, told MB to reverse the polarity of their attacks. And it does it. Like a wishing machine. He wishes for it to happen, and it did.

You also know how to interpret a scan.

Haha, best buddies, let's shake on it

Edit: was slightly influenced by how Motherboxes are treated:

https://theragingfanboy.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/finalcrisis6-miraclemachine001.jpg

That's the miracle machine. The ultimate wishing machine. But what is the miracle machine?
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111131028/3470043-sadasdasd.jpg
A cargo cult Motherbox.

^^^Yeah, two completely different things, and inventive interpretation.

Shaking on it, and thanks again. I had -no- idea this thread would actually go anywhere after such a shitty start.

. I would be interested in seeing some feats for Graviton at some point - not being snarky, but a lot of the Graviton camp just tossed around terms like Skyfather and trans and named famous characters he's beaten/fought.

When let's be honest, you could do the same with Batman in DC lol. Or Superman, but let's not go there.

Well technically he (the version of Graviton being used) beat everyone on earth.
And the same -is- done for Bats and Supes. All the time.

Still, i guess i would have been more open to your interpretation of feats/events, if one of the earliest to set up camp for Orion hadnt spoiled it for everyone else by planting your flag in a pile of dung.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Checked it, CPB was actually self destructing basically, because of a failsafe the Guardians put in if someone from Sinestro's race were killed. Yellow impurity was even taking over. It seemed to have something to do with Sinestro pulling it off, based on what he said. I thought he'd been imprisoned in the CPB before, but whether he was or not, this isn't one of the times as the GLC voted to execute him and had done it, and his sentience went into the CPB.


Yes indeed. Ive skimmed through the story to jog my memory and that's true. However, being trapped in the CPB doesn't mean he has auto-access to it, it was supposed to serve as a prison for him after all. A later story, from what i recall, also had Dr Light imprisoned inside the CPB and he couldn't do jack. Even though his power set is uniquely suited to tap into such a reservoir of energy. So what im trying to say is that Sinestro didn't just do it because of a stipulation (being trapped in it) but because he had the power to. You could even argue the same thing for Parallax who was trapped all these years in the CPB and yet couldn't get ahold of it. Something of note is that the sinestro fiasco is somewhat similar to the recent Darkseid War instance -- where the mother box had to be directly in contact with the CPB to access it.

Originally posted by Delta1938

Not sure what Hal did here. Did he just tap into the CPB or drain it? It doesn't look like he drained it, but that's just on what you showed. I guess I can check later if you're not able to tell without tracking it down.


Well, Hal and the other GLs usually tap into their little individual batteries (via recharging) which are in turn small components of the CPB. In this particular example, Hal tapped into the CPB itself to subdue the monstrous creature.

Originally posted by Delta1938

Nope, I hadn't read Anti-Monitor example (read very few COIE tie-ins) but cool to see.

Not sure what Evil Star means by "negate" since it's not clear if he's doing that right then in the scan since it's glowing. If he actually turned it off or just blocked it from powering others. Either wouldn't be the best showing for the CPB, but blocking in a way so Power Rings didn't work isn't the same as what the MB did on merging with it and seeming to take control.


That scan is really all the context there is in regards to that: Evil Star fooled the guardians by thinking he was imprisoned and helpless, while he had a duplicate star-band with which he used to nullify the CPB from his prison (so what makes it more impressive, is that he did it without direct contact with the CPB). And you'll notice that he could also power it up again temporarily to lure hal in, so that proves pretty conclusively that Evil Star was able to tap into it. For reference, Evil Star was pretty powerful back then, he even managed to destroy hal's power ring and has tooled him several times in other stories and has paralyzed/subdued the guardians twice -- although he does have his limits (for instance, i recall years later he was unable to make a sun go nova)

Originally posted by Delta1938

Gotta ask why you're bringing up the Guardian retcon for the CPB? My guess on Evil Star being because things being more income in those days, level of power not yet being established(haven't read enough of GL from then to know if this would be the case) or both. Also I misread what you said about those examples.


Ah yes, i should have clarified. I was trying to put things in perspective. Because in Evil Star's example, Evil Star easily paralyzes all the guardians (and he's done it twice), so i wanted to provide a bit of context to that from today's standpoint of continuity. The recent era of GL has established several times that Guardians don't interfere (much like the watchers), even when they are threatened directly.

As for Guardians' power level in that era -- Even before The evil star instance which happened in 60s the guardians could do things like nullify earth destroying energies with their presence and depower/repower Hal on a whim. While GL's power was also established to be pretty high -- being able to mindrape entire populations, create worlds, re-ignite suns, molecular/atomic manipulation abilities and those are solely before the Evil Star instance. After that there were even more. It's just that they were more susceptible to defeats in those days, a single weaponers' (of qward) ship one-shotted them all, and a creature -- which couldn't even mindrape black canary -- mindraped them all. Current Guardians aren't taken down so easily.

Originally posted by Delta1938

Far as I know, it's only been depicted as absolutely massive when they do talk about the size of either New Genesis or Apokolips(though they usually don't talk about the size). And that's pretty cool, but, and this may yet again be something you have to check was it Superboy was directly amped or it used TK to boost his? More curiosity than makes a difference in MB's scale of power.


It amped his TK: https://imgur.com/mqhQ8aO

Originally posted by Delta1938

I agree the telepathy route is more concrete, but if MB has shown massive scale of power multiple other areas, it's certainly plausible he could manipulate gravity on that scale. It not working on Graviton's powers is an argument, the example DS brought up could be a really low showing, could have been accomplished differently enough than what Orion has done with MB, but still a plausible tactic.

Fair enough. Although i do have a hard time imagining him beating Graviton at his own game.

Originally posted by cdtm
If they are the "most loyal" of Darkseids minions, it stands to reason Orion's tangled with them before.

Odds are, Mother Box's nullify their powers as easily as Infinity Man did.

Orion was established to be below Infinity man even back then. And he never encountered the gravi guards directly.

However, your example does have some merit in regards to Infinity Man, given that he was able to nullify their powers and IM's power source is... the source/ALE. The same power source the mother box taps into, and it has shown the capability to tap into the ALE although only in direct contact (with those mortals that had it in their heads).

It's not conclusive of anything of course but it is an interesting example worth mentioning.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
. I would be interested in seeing some feats for Graviton at some point - not being snarky, but a lot of the Graviton camp just tossed around terms like Skyfather and trans and named famous characters he's beaten/fought.

When let's be honest, you could do the same with Batman in DC lol. Or Superman, but let's not go there.

And all you had to is ask.

Im assuming you are familiar with his thunderbolts feats? so i won't have to post them.

Graviton vs Avengers. Just an all around stompage fest: https://imgur.com/a/OmtIGSp

https://imgur.com/GKI0kkZ

Now with thor: https://imgur.com/qLUE2bb

He also easily lifted a city-sized chunk of the earth: https://imgur.com/1zJwwCD
And put a shield which no one could pierce: https://imgur.com/4eMKAX8

Now with the WCA: https://imgur.com/a/zV6VsGe https://imgur.com/a/yWZbJXS

He was KO'd due to a drug administered to him beforehand.

again: https://imgur.com/a/Fekjn2Q

He could also control light waves, btw (which technically shouldn't be affected by gravity unless the writer had relativity taken into account which makes his gravitational powers all the more impressive): https://imgur.com/r8s7Swz

We get an idea of the extend of his powers where we see him increase his own mass/density into infinity becoming a singularity/black hole (technically he's done this multiple times but it was only this time that he did intentionally -- increased his mass to infinity -- as opposed to the other times where he simply lost control): https://imgur.com/a/DxdwiuF

Recently though he's been watered down a bit, when he re-appeared as being part of AIM's council he said that he regenerated from mere atoms: https://imgur.com/FSJjRP9

Takes apart unity squad: https://imgur.com/a/DUREk6i

Puts up a shield which avengers/unity squad couldn't break (including jane thor): https://imgur.com/a/8GKOZzm

Although naturally, Quasar (Avril) was able to break it single handedly since she has a thing for shields.

Originally posted by operator616
Orion was established to be below Infinity man even back then. And he never encountered the gravi guards directly.

However, your example does have some merit in regards to Infinity Man, given that he was able to nullify their powers and IM's power source is... the source/ALE. The same power source the mother box taps into, and it has shown the capability to tap into the ALE although only in direct contact (with those mortals that had it in their heads).

It's not conclusive of anything of course but it is an interesting example worth mentioning.



And all you had to is ask.

Im assuming you are familiar with his thunderbolts feats? so i won't have to post them.

Graviton vs Avengers. Just an all around stompage fest: https://imgur.com/a/OmtIGSp

https://imgur.com/GKI0kkZ

Now with thor: https://imgur.com/qLUE2bb

He also easily lifted a city-sized chunk of the earth: https://imgur.com/1zJwwCD
And put a shield which no one could pierce: https://imgur.com/4eMKAX8

Now with the WCA: https://imgur.com/a/zV6VsGe https://imgur.com/a/yWZbJXS

He was KO'd due to a drug administered to him beforehand.

again: https://imgur.com/a/Fekjn2Q

He could also control light waves, btw (which technically shouldn't be affected by gravity unless the writer had relativity taken into account which makes his gravitational powers all the more impressive): https://imgur.com/r8s7Swz

We get an idea of the extend of his powers where we see him increase his own mass/density into infinity becoming a singularity/black hole (technically he's done this multiple times but it was only this time that he did intentionally -- increased his mass to infinity -- as opposed to the other times where he simply lost control): https://imgur.com/a/DxdwiuF

Recently though he's been watered down a bit, when he re-appeared as being part of AIM's council he said that he regenerated from mere atoms: https://imgur.com/FSJjRP9

Takes apart unity squad: https://imgur.com/a/DUREk6i

Puts up a shield which avengers/unity squad couldn't break (including jane thor): https://imgur.com/a/8GKOZzm

Although naturally, Quasar (Avril) was able to break it single handedly since she has a thing for shields.

Just curious, where would Quasar (Avril) be at in terms of DC? Planetary?
I kinda find it PIS she did something Jane Thor couldn't. Mjolnir's pretty powerful

We didn't see much of her, she has the same powers as Wendell, so in DC terms she should be similar to GLs, probably like John steward level.

breaking a shield that Mjolnir couldn't do is far above GL level lmao She should be a little above Superman, for sure

graviton does have some crazy feats which are easily checked on any respect thread. his highs are WELL beyond his lows from what i've seen, one shown where he had a head injury and the other the mm tech. but that's not the issue here. the problem with using the MB as a plot device to win is simple: what's to stop that reason from extending to ALL of orion's fights, exactly? orion v superman? pfft. orion tells MB to shoot him with constant blasts of k-nite! it could happen since all orion has to do is wish it! orion v silver surfer? pfft. MB creates a device to replicate what the stranger did to him! it is a mini-miracle machine after all! orion v gl? pfft. who cares how the fight went down. orion could have had MB create a device to drain the ring instantly, copying what a manhunter bot can do. juggs? pfft. i wish for MB to duplicate what the hammer did!

a hammer that was effortlessly stopped by graviton:

http://i.imgur.com/FNVmx7A.jpg

again, reversing polarity=/=canceling the gravity equation. utterly different. if orion tried to reverse....whatever he'd try reversing, what would stop graviton from simply reversing it back? what's orion gonna do exactly? reverse gravity on himself? how would that do anything? and his MB blast was a one-off shot. the disks mm made the t-bolts made them completely IMMUNE to his power, SUSTAINED that immunity and he STILL smacked them around.

tp could def win for orion, but he certainly doesn't use the MB that way very often. how often has he mindraped someone exactly? once? odds of that happening seem extremely low. and i'm not even sure the TP would work if he was actively shielding as in a battle. graviton can effect EM radiation too:

http://i.imgur.com/NCjlnWw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/sMP0dDO.jpg

lots of support says tp energy is simply EM radiation, so a case could be made he could even shield from tp if the graviton side wanted to reach as far as the orion side seems to want to.

i don't think the reverse polarity scan does anything to help the orion camp, other than to display the plot device nature of the MB. but thor's hammer is as big a plot device and graviton has dismissed thor as a child multiple times already, and if you want to keep pushing the plot device nature of the MB you better have a good reason why he can't simply plot device himself to wins in ALL his forum matches. then be sure to extend thor that same courtesy. and all gl's since their rings are as plot devicey as anything out there. /shrug

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
breaking a shield that Mjolnir couldn't do is far above GL level lmao She should be a little above Superman, for sure

She got owned by a leviathan.

The same thing applies to her predecessor. Wendell was able to lift an entire island yet in other showings wasn't able to lift Terminus' body out of orbit. His constructs held up against a massively amped collector and nega bomb and Super-Nova yet dynamo (who is iron man level) was able to break them, so did Thing going all out iirc.

I hope this isn't anything new to you.

Magneto also casually controlled Mjolnir in Avengers books, More then once, I believe.

In his own stories, he just absorbed the magnetism.

Mjolnir should certainly be capable of affecting gravity manipulation..

Originally posted by operator616
Orion was established to be below Infinity man even back then. And he never encountered the gravi guards directly.

However, your example does have some merit in regards to Infinity Man, given that he was able to nullify their powers and IM's power source is... the source/ALE. The same power source the mother box taps into, and it has shown the capability to tap into the ALE although only in direct contact (with those mortals that had it in their heads).

It's not conclusive of anything of course but it is an interesting example worth mentioning.



And all you had to is ask.

Im assuming you are familiar with his thunderbolts feats? so i won't have to post them.

Graviton vs Avengers. Just an all around stompage fest: https://imgur.com/a/OmtIGSp

https://imgur.com/GKI0kkZ

Now with thor: https://imgur.com/qLUE2bb

He also easily lifted a city-sized chunk of the earth: https://imgur.com/1zJwwCD
And put a shield which no one could pierce: https://imgur.com/4eMKAX8

Now with the WCA: https://imgur.com/a/zV6VsGe https://imgur.com/a/yWZbJXS

He was KO'd due to a drug administered to him beforehand.

again: https://imgur.com/a/Fekjn2Q

He could also control light waves, btw (which technically shouldn't be affected by gravity unless the writer had relativity taken into account which makes his gravitational powers all the more impressive): https://imgur.com/r8s7Swz

We get an idea of the extend of his powers where we see him increase his own mass/density into infinity becoming a singularity/black hole (technically he's done this multiple times but it was only this time that he did intentionally -- increased his mass to infinity -- as opposed to the other times where he simply lost control): https://imgur.com/a/DxdwiuF

Recently though he's been watered down a bit, when he re-appeared as being part of AIM's council he said that he regenerated from mere atoms: https://imgur.com/FSJjRP9

Takes apart unity squad: https://imgur.com/a/DUREk6i

Puts up a shield which avengers/unity squad couldn't break (including jane thor): https://imgur.com/a/8GKOZzm

Although naturally, Quasar (Avril) was able to break it single handedly since she has a thing for shields.

lol ninja posted me!

Originally posted by leonidas
graviton does have some crazy feats which are easily checked on any respect thread. his highs are WELL beyond his lows from what i've seen, one shown where he had a head injury and the other the mm tech. but that's not the issue here. the problem with using the MB as a plot device to win is simple: what's to stop that reason from extending to ALL of orion's fights, exactly? orion v superman? pfft. orion tells MB to shoot him with constant blasts of k-nite! it could happen since all orion has to do is wish it! orion v silver surfer? pfft. MB creates a device to replicate what the stranger did to him! it is a mini-miracle machine after all! orion v gl? pfft. who cares how the fight went down. orion could have had MB create a device to drain the ring instantly, copying what a manhunter bot can do. juggs? pfft. i wish for MB to duplicate what the hammer did!

a hammer that was effortlessly stopped by graviton:

http://i.imgur.com/FNVmx7A.jpg

again, reversing polarity=/=canceling the gravity equation. utterly different. if orion tried to reverse....whatever he'd try reversing, what would stop graviton from simply reversing it back? what's orion gonna do exactly? reverse gravity on himself? how would that do anything? and his MB blast was a one-off shot. the disks mm made the t-bolts made them completely IMMUNE to his power, SUSTAINED that immunity and he STILL smacked them around.

tp could def win for orion, but he certainly doesn't use the MB that way very often. how often has he mindraped someone exactly? once? odds of that happening seem extremely low. and i'm not even sure the TP would work if he was actively shielding as in a battle. graviton can effect EM radiation too:

http://i.imgur.com/NCjlnWw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/sMP0dDO.jpg

lots of support says tp energy is simply EM radiation, so a case could be made he could even shield from tp if the graviton side wanted to reach as far as the orion side seems to want to.

i don't think the reverse polarity scan does anything to help the orion camp, other than to display the plot device nature of the MB. but thor's hammer is as big a plot device and graviton has dismissed thor as a child multiple times already, and if you want to keep pushing the plot device nature of the MB you better have a good reason why he can't simply plot device himself to wins in ALL his forum matches. then be sure to extend thor that same courtesy. and all gl's since their rings are as plot devicey as anything out there. /shrug

Originally posted by abhilegend
Was it stated that the head injury weakened him somehow?

In the handbooks it said it made him more megalomaniac so yes it clearly messed with him.

Based on what he has done before and after that scene he clearly was not in top shape

Originally posted by leonidas
graviton does have some crazy feats which are easily checked on any respect thread. his highs are WELL beyond his lows from what i've seen, one shown where he had a head injury and the other the mm tech. but that's not the issue here. the problem with using the MB as a plot device to win is simple: what's to stop that reason from extending to ALL of orion's fights, exactly? orion v superman? pfft. orion tells MB to shoot him with constant blasts of k-nite! it could happen since all orion has to do is wish it! orion v silver surfer? pfft. MB creates a device to replicate what the stranger did to him! it is a mini-miracle machine after all! orion v gl? pfft. who cares how the fight went down. orion could have had MB create a device to drain the ring instantly, copying what a manhunter bot can do. juggs? pfft. i wish for MB to duplicate what the hammer did!

a hammer that was effortlessly stopped by graviton:

http://i.imgur.com/FNVmx7A.jpg

again, reversing polarity=/=canceling the gravity equation. utterly different. if orion tried to reverse....whatever he'd try reversing, what would stop graviton from simply reversing it back? what's orion gonna do exactly? reverse gravity on himself? how would that do anything? and his MB blast was a one-off shot. the disks mm made the t-bolts made them completely IMMUNE to his power, SUSTAINED that immunity and he STILL smacked them around.

tp could def win for orion, but he certainly doesn't use the MB that way very often. how often has he mindraped someone exactly? once? odds of that happening seem extremely low. and i'm not even sure the TP would work if he was actively shielding as in a battle. graviton can effect EM radiation too:

http://i.imgur.com/NCjlnWw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/sMP0dDO.jpg

lots of support says tp energy is simply EM radiation, so a case could be made he could even shield from tp if the graviton side wanted to reach as far as the orion side seems to want to.

i don't think the reverse polarity scan does anything to help the orion camp, other than to display the plot device nature of the MB. but thor's hammer is as big a plot device and graviton has dismissed thor as a child multiple times already, and if you want to keep pushing the plot device nature of the MB you better have a good reason why he can't simply plot device himself to wins in ALL his forum matches. then be sure to extend thor that same courtesy. and all gl's since their rings are as plot devicey as anything out there. /shrug
So should I start posting Orion's high feats now? Or is the circlejerk for Graviton still not over?

https://s22.postimg.cc/g0znwpx6l/image.jpg https://s22.postimg.cc/vmgzgogul/image.jpg https://s22.postimg.cc/meoqzzhi5/image.jpg https://s22.postimg.cc/c4mc0sp2l/image.jpg

Or this.

https://s22.postimg.cc/fpi7k6tnx/image.jpg https://s22.postimg.cc/5s76r4trx/image.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
graviton does have some crazy feats which are easily checked on any respect thread. his highs are WELL beyond his lows from what i've seen, one shown where he had a head injury and the other the mm tech. but that's not the issue here. the problem with using the MB as a plot device to win is simple: what's to stop that reason from extending to ALL of orion's fights, exactly? orion v superman? pfft. orion tells MB to shoot him with constant blasts of k-nite! it could happen since all orion has to do is wish it! orion v silver surfer? pfft. MB creates a device to replicate what the stranger did to him! it is a mini-miracle machine after all! orion v gl? pfft. who cares how the fight went down. orion could have had MB create a device to drain the ring instantly, copying what a manhunter bot can do. juggs? pfft. i wish for MB to duplicate what the hammer did!

a hammer that was effortlessly stopped by graviton:

http://i.imgur.com/FNVmx7A.jpg

again, reversing polarity=/=canceling the gravity equation. utterly different. if orion tried to reverse....whatever he'd try reversing, what would stop graviton from simply reversing it back? what's orion gonna do exactly? reverse gravity on himself? how would that do anything? and his MB blast was a one-off shot. the disks mm made the t-bolts made them completely IMMUNE to his power, SUSTAINED that immunity and he STILL smacked them around.

tp could def win for orion, but he certainly doesn't use the MB that way very often. how often has he mindraped someone exactly? once? odds of that happening seem extremely low. and i'm not even sure the TP would work if he was actively shielding as in a battle. graviton can effect EM radiation too:

http://i.imgur.com/NCjlnWw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/sMP0dDO.jpg

lots of support says tp energy is simply EM radiation, so a case could be made he could even shield from tp if the graviton side wanted to reach as far as the orion side seems to want to.

i don't think the reverse polarity scan does anything to help the orion camp, other than to display the plot device nature of the MB. but thor's hammer is as big a plot device and graviton has dismissed thor as a child multiple times already, and if you want to keep pushing the plot device nature of the MB you better have a good reason why he can't simply plot device himself to wins in ALL his forum matches. then be sure to extend thor that same courtesy. and all gl's since their rings are as plot devicey as anything out there. /shrug

Good post. The only thing id like to point out that Synapse (who is a city level telepath) was able to phuck with Graviton's mind. That's why i initially said that TP could be an option (especially with the MB being able to mind wipe hammond and send him packing).

Originally posted by abhilegend
So should I start posting Orion's high feats now? Or is the circlejerk for Graviton still not over?

https://s22.postimg.cc/g0znwpx6l/image.jpg https://s22.postimg.cc/vmgzgogul/image.jpg https://s22.postimg.cc/meoqzzhi5/image.jpg https://s22.postimg.cc/c4mc0sp2l/image.jpg I posted that pages back, I still think his greatest low is the hypo in the butt.

Originally posted by -K-M-
In the handbooks it said it made him more megalomaniac so yes it clearly messed with him.

Based on what he has done before and after that scene he clearly was not in top shape
If you want to go by his performance, he would always be weakened anytime he doesn't beats every hero on earth.

I take it you don't have anything confirming he was weakened.

Because Orion high end feats supposedly better than Graviton's right