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I do too, although from a story perspective I think Boba is meant to have surpassed his predecessors, Bane included.

Jango was the best bounty hunter until his death. Then Bane, followed by Embo. Of course Boba outclassed them all.


But yeah, Bane is one of my favorites.

Originally posted by Kurk
Jango was the best bounty hunter until his death. Then Bane, followed by Embo. Of course Boba outclassed them all.


But yeah, Bane is one of my favorites. what about bossk? Is he weaker than those who aleeady listed above ?

Imo Bane was more successful.

Infiltrated the Jedi temple, escaped republic prison, made a fool out of Anakin, obi wan and Vos. He held the senate hostage n helped Ziro escape. He escaped Jedi custody as well

Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
Imo Bane was more successful.

Infiltrated the Jedi temple, escaped republic prison, made a fool out of Anakin, obi wan and Vos. He held the senate hostage n helped Ziro escape. He escaped Jedi custody as well
Meanwhile Boba Fett was stalemated by a freshly knighted Jaden Korr.

And got his ass kicked by a newb Luke

Cad Bane got his ass kicked by Ahsoka but yeah, they each have their pros and cons.

He did better than Vizsla.

Toss between them both. I like em both, but granted Cad has gotten more personality then Boba, but then being a Souless Machine is kind of what Boba is supposed to be....so.

Daily reminder that in Legends canon Boba fought Mace Windu to a stalemate.

Yeah, a stalemate... because Mace refused to kill him after kicking his ass... three times.

Boba's infinitely cooler, more interesting, more handsome, more skilled, more equipped (in all ways), more badass, etc. than Cad Bane.

Nick Gillard said he wanted to see a fight between ROTS Anakin and Boba Fett, which I think speaks for itself.

ohshit time for Boba Fett is ****ing Sidious level arguments lmao

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yeah, a stalemate... because Mace refused to kill him after kicking his ass... three times. "kicking his ass"

They were both "on the verge of collapse" from exhaustion by the end of their fight in Sheev's office.

That sounds like bull shit though...mace being stalemated by Boba Fett? Come on...legends Mace Windu is a beast

He defeated a whole droid army by himself with the force, he n Yoda were holding off the sepretists as it invaded the capital. He owned old canon grievous who was rag dolling Jedi masters left n right.

Both were not cool to me. Jango was the best. Hopefully canon can establishing new one I can respect.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Both were not cool to me. Jango was the best. Hopefully canon can establishing new one I can respect. What did Jango do to outclass Bane? (I won't ask about Boba since most of his feats are in books/comics that you won't read).

Originally posted by Kurk
What did Jango do to outclass Bane? (I won't ask about Boba since most of his feats are in books/comics that you won't read). How impressive he was against Windu prior to his jet pack being damaged by a beast.

Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
That sounds like bull shit though...mace being stalemated by Boba Fett? Come on...legends Mace Windu is a beast

He defeated a whole droid army by himself with the force, he n Yoda were holding off the sepretists as it invaded the capital. He owned old canon grievous who was rag dolling Jedi masters left n right. Well yeah its bullshit. But it's technically canon in legends and therefore makes for excellent shitposting material.

Plus you have to ask yourself: as dumb as it is, is it REALLY that much worse then basically everything introduced in TOR?

Originally posted by Tzeentch
They were both "on the verge of collapse" from exhaustion by the end of their fight in Sheev's office.

You shouldn't be so trusting of what you read on Wookipedia. The battle lasted like a minute at the very most, Mace passed over several opportunities to kill Boba early in the fight, the only blows that Boba landed were cheapshots, and Palpatine had to rush in and save his ass once Mace actually decided to kill him.

Boba Fett was cornered.
"This is my final offer of surrender," said the Jedi Master.
"No," said Boba in a low voice.
He would never surrender.
The Jedi took another step toward him. Boba thought of his friends back on Tatooine.
Good-bye, Ygabba. Good-bye, Gab'borah. I'll miss you.

Some inner monologue to have during a stalemate.

"Even though I'm literally the second strongest Jedi alive, this twelve year old is too strong for me to defeat non-lethally."

You say Boba landed "cheap shots" but you're referring to a 12 year old boy fighting a Jedi grand master.

Post the clip then, prove it, Jango looked like a clown

Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
Post the clip then, prove it, Jango looked like a clown Why? Your idiotic brain is stuck in fantasy land. Do your own homework, dolt.

In Legends he carried a double barreled shotgun with cortosis shot, though given the expenses on cortosis and the fact that it destroyed the barrels after he fired, I doubt he used it much.

Still Boba is superior I believe in both continuities, Legends even moreso.

...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQhkqUyH8kQ

There's what happened in the whole 'fight' if you could really call it that.

https://youtu.be/1WpNCxqjKN4?t=48

Here's before that 'fight', the only thing Jango really did was burn Mace's cloak as he was deflecting SBD fire.

He tried shooting mace and was cecapetated, if anything else happened prove it.. the clip is literally not even a minute so again...stfu and prove yourself punk ass

Originally posted by Zenwolf
In Legends he carried a double barreled shotgun with cortosis shot, though given the expenses on cortosis and the fact that it destroyed the barrels after he fired, I doubt he used it much.

Still Boba is superior I believe in both continuities, Legends even moreso.

Not in current canon but idk much about boba in current canon

Originally posted by quanchi112
Snoke is the most powerful force user and greatest dark lord of the Star Wars myth is st this time.


Youre the only one who believes that.

If he's talking canon, I believe that.

EDIT: Well, there are the ones, actually, but apart from them.

Originally posted by Zentrex
If he's talking canon, I believe that.

EDIT: Well, there are the ones, actually, but apart from them. There is no legitimate reason to believe that Snoke is the most powerful force-user in canon.

Zentrex has been smoking deathsticks

Originally posted by quanchi112
Logic and common sense Logic and common sense glean nothing of the sort, actually... Nor does the evidence at hand.

If Zentrex would like a more thorough explanation, I'd be willing to provide such. Your faux-trolling is cute as always, though.

Oh yeah, dominating a Padawan is really impressive.

Originally posted by Galan007
There is no legitimate reason to believe that Snoke is the most powerful force-user in canon.

Originally posted by Galan007
Logic and common sense glean nothing of the sort, actually... Nor does the evidence at hand.

If Zentrex would like a more thorough explanation, I'd be willing to provide such. Your faux-trolling is cute as always, though.

None, though? I can see you being skepticle, but I mean, he's been the "big bad" for these two movies for a reason.

He had knowledge that Palpatine was after, learned from masters who had knowledge that was lost to all but the people who first discovered the Force, he survived in the unknown regions (where no one survives) for two hundred years, and he fought off threats which, in thrawn's opinion, made the empire look good. Threats which could devastate imperial technology, even under the leadership of Thrawn, Gallius Rax, and Rae Sloane. Not mention they had outposts and were following a plan masterminded by Palpatine.

He managed to turn Luke Skywalker of all people into a self-abasing, cynical runaway for thirty years, he completely dominated Rey, who we know was as powerful as Kylo Ren, and he managed to create a force bond between Kylo and Rey so powerful that it caused matter to transport - something even Luke coulnd't accomplish.

He was stated by the people working behind the movies to be very powerful. And it's Disney, so we know they just think more means better, so it makes sense that he'd be more powerful than our last big bad, Palpatine, who was the most powerful before.

So, yeah, i'd say there's plenty of evidence to suggest that he's the most powerful person in the new canon.

Originally posted by Kurk
Zentrex has been smoking deathsticks
So? Haven't you?

Poor galan. Not that he cares tbh.

Rey is even below padawan level tbh. She basically had Zero training.

Originally posted by Zentrex
I mean, he's been the "big bad" for these two movies for a reason. Perhaps that makes him the most powerful force-user of his era... But the most powerful force-user in all of canon? No.

Originally posted by Zentrex
He had knowledge that Palpatine was after, learned from masters who had knowledge that was lost to all but the people who first discovered the Force, By virtue of living in the Unknown Regions for so long, Snoke had evidently learned "truths" about the force that Palpatine sought(but never discovered) prior to his death. This doesn't necessarily imply that Snoke's *overall* knowledge exceeded Palpatine's, however -- just implies that he possessed a few nuggets of information that Palpatine wanted.

Originally posted by Zentrex
he survived in the unknown regions (where no one survives) for two hundred years, I beg to differ. There are evidently quite a few civilizations that can survive in the Unknown Regions just fine -- the Chiss are one of them.

Originally posted by Zentrex
and he fought off threats which, in thrawn's opinion, made the empire look good. Threats which could devastate imperial technology, even under the leadership of Thrawn, Gallius Rax, and Rae Sloane. First off, we don't know if the threats Snoke saved the Imperial remnants from are the same threats that Thrawn referenced to Palpatine. Thrawn stated that there were a multitude threats lurking there, after all.

Secondly, where are you getting this "fought off" thing from? All that was stated is that Snoke's knowledge saved the Imperial remnants from obliteration in the Unknown Regions... That could mean something as simple as guiding them to safety via stable hyperspace routes for all we know. /shrug

Originally posted by Zentrex
He managed to turn Luke Skywalker of all people into a self-abasing, cynical runaway for thirty years, By turning Ben against him, thereby breaking Luke emotionally... Certainly not through raw power.

Originally posted by Zentrex
he completely dominated Rey, who we know was as powerful as Kylo Ren, Rey has massive potential, but she had only received a few days of "training"(and I use that term very loosely) from Luke by the time she encountered Snoke. I certainly wouldn't regard him 'dominating' her as some sort of ridiculously uber feat that skyrockets Snoke to the top of the totem pole. Potential doesn't count for much when it is primarily untapped.

Originally posted by Zentrex
and he managed to create a force bond between Kylo and Rey so powerful that it caused matter to transport - something even Luke coulnd't accomplish. Indeed Snoke's psionic abilities were impressive. Does that make him the most powerful force-user in canon by proxy, though? No.

Originally posted by Zentrex
He was stated by the people working behind the movies to be very powerful. Cool, but there's a big discrepancy between "very powerful" and "the most powerful ever in canon". I agree with the former, but the latter is another story entirely...

Originally posted by Zentrex
So, yeah, i'd say there's plenty of evidence to suggest that he's the most powerful person in the new canon. Maybe in time he'll rise to that level. As of right now, however, Sheev still holds that title decisively.

Quan you sound seriously Butt hurt.

She had a total of 3 lessons from Luke. Only 1 of them involved reaching out through the Force. Whoop! Seriously TCW Ahsoka would be Reys teacher without a doubt.

Try paying more attention to the film you claim to be the best SW movie

Galan

The chiss didn't survive INSIDE the unknown regions in the new canon, they survived near them.

IIRC, Snoke said he was a great warrior fighting off threats in the unknown regions, and if he's been there for 200-ish years, I imagine he would have encountered everything that they have to offer. And it's really stretching to say that the threats thrawn mentioned are different from the threats Snoke fought, and when Thrawn referred to his threats in the plural, he didn't mean there were different TYPES of threats, he meant, like, there's many of the one type of threat.

Snoke broke Luke through telepathy. Luke wouldn't just give up because he failed Ben. In fact, we see that Luke doesn't truly believe that at the end of the film. In his heart of hearts, he doesn't want to die, he doesn't want the jedi to end, he doesn't want any of this. It's an illusion set in his mind by Snoke. You were the one who showed me the passage of the Last Jedi novelization which states this.

And Rey is just as powerful as Kylo, who, might I mention, destroyed the entire beginnings of the new jedi order almost single handedly. Rey was equally matched with him when they tried to pull the lightsaber to themselves, and when Rey's force potential was unlocked by Kylo when he was mind-probing her, she became visibly powerful. She then lifted all those rocks effortlessly at the end of TLJ. So, yeah, she's kind of powerful.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Galan

The chiss didn't survive INSIDE the unknown regions in the new canon, they survived near them. Incorrect.

The Chiss Ascendancy resides within the Unknown Regions:


ie. as Thrawn was helping Palpatine map the Unknown Regions, he intentionally kept the location(s) of all Chiss worldS/baseS within the UR secret... Which tells us they not only lived in the UR, but flourished there(hence why Thrawn knew so much about its inner-workings.)

Originally posted by Zentrex
IIRC, Snoke said he was a great warrior fighting off threats in the unknown regions, and if he's been there for 200-ish years, I imagine he would have encountered everything that they have to offer. Unfortunately, what you 'imagine' doesn't equate to incontrovertible fact. The novelization explicitly states that it was Snoke's knowledge(not raw power) that saved the Imperial remnants from the terrors in the Unknown Regions:


Originally posted by Zentrex
And it's really stretching to say that the threats thrawn mentioned are different from the threats Snoke fought, and when Thrawn referred to his threats in the plural, he didn't mean there were different TYPES of threats, he meant, like, there's many of the one type of threat. Incorrect.

Thrawn was clearly referring to numerous threatS(plural) lurking within the UR:



Originally posted by Zentrex
Snoke broke Luke through telepathy. Luke wouldn't just give up because he failed Ben. In fact, we see that Luke doesn't truly believe that at the end of the film. In his heart of hearts, he doesn't want to die, he doesn't want the jedi to end, he doesn't want any of this. It's an illusion set in his mind by Snoke. You were the one who showed me the passage of the Last Jedi novelization which states this. You're twisting the text a bit. It's not like Snoke straight-up mindphucked Luke or w/e. The passage reads as Snoke essentially manipulating those around Luke like chess pieces in order to emotionally break Luke himself and force him into a self-imposed exile(thereby removing him from play):

It was Rey's 'vigor'(and then his chat with Yoda) that ultimately pulled Luke out of said exile and back into the fray.

Originally posted by Zentrex
And Rey is just as powerful as Kylo, who, might I mention, destroyed the entire beginnings of the new jedi order almost single handedly. Eh, should I be impressed that Kylo killed a few unnamed/fodder/featless Padawan-level students?

Do you think Anakin chopping down a room full of Jedi Temple Younglings qualifies as a noteworthy display of power as well?

Originally posted by Zentrex
Rey was equally matched with him when they tried to pull the lightsaber to themselves, and when Rey's force potential was unlocked by Kylo when he was mind-probing her, she became visibly powerful. She then lifted all those rocks effortlessly at the end of TLJ. So, yeah, she's kind of powerful. Indeed Rey has massive potential(why are you acting like I said otherwise..?) However, she was only just beginning to tap some of that potential when she encountered Snoke(which makes sense given that she'd only received a couple days-worth of subpar 'training' from Luke beforehand.) But again- potential doesn't count for much when it is primarily untapped.



Also, here's what Jason Fry(the guy who WROTE the TLJ novelization) thinks about the Palpatine/Snoke dynamic:

Just saying...

Originally posted by Galan007
Incorrect. The Chiss Ascendancy resides within the Unknown Regions:
Thrawn intentionally kept the location(s) of all Chiss worldS/baseS within the UR secret

Okay, you're right. But the reason Thrawn contacted Palpatine was because he knew there were threats in the unknown regions the Chiss ascendency was incapable of dealing with.
Ahch-To was also in the unknwon regions, so we know there are safe places there, just not where the bad thigns are. So Snoke being able to survive the bad things is a pretty big deal.



What I was referring to was the sources which stated he was a warlord and had masters who taught him how to fight the threats in the unknown regions.

In fact, this is my strongest arguing point. He defenitely fought threats in the unknown regions with his arcane knowledge of the force. Now if you want to make things up around it, like, "oh, maybe they weren't the same threats we're being warned about," or "maybe he didn't actually have the power to fight them, but just the knowledge!", then that's consistent with logic, but there's really no reason to believe it.



That is a valid interpretation of the quote, but doesn't it seem like they're using the world "knowledge" as a stand-in for "force abilities" when talking about Snoke?



How do you know how powerful they were?

You say Rey's potential is untapped, fantastic, it is, but you can't deny she's powerful. We know this from her feats.
You're putting more importance to your sense of logic and speculation than you are to authorial intent. Yeah the few days of training with Luke SHOULDN'T have made her very powerful, but Johnson seems to think it should have, so that should take precendence.



I think he was talking about political power.

The main thing that I'm looking for is, what do we know FOR SURE about Snoke? And from the quotes by the creators and actors as well as the information we've been presented, it seems they want Snoke to be the most powerful person there ever was.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Okay, you're right. But the reason Thrawn contacted Palpatine was because he knew there were threats in the unknown regions the Chiss ascendency was incapable of dealing with. Yes and no.

The reason Thrawn originally contacted the Empire was to see if it could be used as a potential ally against some of the threats in the Unknown Regions, or if it was best for the Chiss to collapse the Empire into an easy prey for said threats to pounce on while the Ascendancy regrouped and came up with a different strategy.

...But that's neither here nor there. My point was simply that there are several civilizations that prosper in the UR just fine -- the Chiss are merely one of them.

Originally posted by Zentrex
What I was referring to was the sources which stated he was a warlord and had masters who taught him how to fight the threats in the unknown regions. What I'm talking about is the canon quote from the canon novel that states it was Snoke's knowledge(not raw, and/or military power) that saved the Imperial remnants from the terrors in the Unknown Regions.

Originally posted by Zentrex
He defenitely fought threats in the unknown regions with his arcane knowledge of the force. Source stating that Snoke threw fisticuffs with the threats in the Unknown Regions..? Because that completely contradicts the novelization.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Now if you want to make things up around it, like, "oh, maybe they weren't the same threats we're being warned about," or "maybe he didn't actually have the power to fight them, but just the knowledge!", then that's consistent with logic, but there's really no reason to believe it. I'm simply giving you a likely possibility, lol. Thrawn explicitly stated there were numerous threats within the UR. Since none of these threats have been named at this time, we have absolutely NO idea if those Snoke saved the Imperial remnants from are the same ones that Thrawn was referring to... It was years later, after all. /shrug

And as I mentioned earlier: the "knowledge" that Snoke used to save the Imperial remnants could have been something as simple as guiding them to a stable hyperspace route through the UR, and away from said threats... We don't know one way or the other at this point.

Originally posted by Zentrex
That is a valid interpretation of the quote, but doesn't it seem like they're using the world "knowledge" as a stand-in for "force abilities" when talking about Snoke? Not at all.

Given the context of that excerpt, 'knowledge' and 'power' are not meant to be interchangeable/synonymous.

Originally posted by Zentrex
How do you know how powerful they were? How do you?

That said, I've seen FAR more fodder Padawans in the franchise than I've seen legitimately powerful ones... So there is that precedent. /shrug

Originally posted by Zentrex
You say Rey's potential is untapped, fantastic, it is, but you can't deny she's powerful. Is Rey powerful relative to the amount of 'training' she's had? Sure. Would she pose a legitimate challenge to most noteworthy Jedi/Sith in the mythos as of TLJ? No, definitely not.

Apropos, Snoke dominating her doesn't equate to some 'teh uber' showing that automatically makes him the most powerful being ever in canon.

Originally posted by Zentrex
You're putting more importance to your sense of logic and speculation than you are to authorial intent. Yeah the few days of training with Luke SHOULDN'T have made her very powerful, but Johnson seems to think it should have, so that should take precendence. Let me put it another way: absolutely nothing in the film or novel suggests that Luke's 'training' bolstered Rey's powers to any significant extent.

Your speculations about her power =/= fact. Unrealized potential is irrelevant here.

Originally posted by Zentrex
I think he was talking about political power. That's not how his statement reads at all.

Originally posted by Zentrex
The main thing that I'm looking for is, what do we know FOR SURE about Snoke? And from the quotes by the creators and actors as well as the information we've been presented, it seems they want Snoke to be the most powerful person there ever was. No irrefutably canon sources glean this conclusion, though.

You're more than welcome to believe this if you so choose. I'm just telling you what we *actually* know about Snoke's power "FOR SURE", without inserting my personal conjecture in the mix.

Soooo back on topic?

Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
Soooo back on topic?

Welcome to KMC

Originally posted by Galan007
My point was simply that there are several civilizations that prosper in the UR just fine -- the Chiss are merely one of them.

Fine, but Snoke didn't live that life of peace. He was a warlord.



Yes, because you assumed that that's what I was referring to. My point was that if he was a warlord, and if he had masters who taught him how to fight, and he was more powerful than Luke Skywalker, and he has all those scars, then there's strong hints that he fought the terrors in the unknown regions.



What was that quote about Snoke defeating legions of enemies in the unknown regions?



If that's the logic that makes sense to you, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.



I mean, he was powerful enough to contact JUST Palpatine and the Acolytes of the Beyond from the unknown regions, in such a way that Vader thought Palpatine was going crazy. And then there's the fact that Sidious felt the very SOURCE of the dark side to be in the unknown regions, and Snoke knew all about it. So that knowledge likely IS of the Force.



Then again, for ONE padawan to take out an entire camp of padawans has to be at least a little impressive, doesn't it?



Well, the writers and actors seem to think she's just as, if not more powerful than, the jedi we saw in the prequel trilogy.



Not her understanding that the force is not about lifting rocks, and actually gaining a strong connection to it? Not her being able to lift all those boulders at the end of the film? Not her going into that hole and discovering herself? Nothing? Nothing at all?



We might have to agree to disagree again, because to me, that's precisely how the statement reads.



you're leaving things out, though. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that Snoke is one of, if not THE, most powerful entity we've seen so far. Writers and actors all seem to think this and he has accomplishments as a telepath? What about all of his hype as being this knowledgable, powerful creature from the unknown regions, themselves a point of space where great power and mystery lies?

Originally posted by Zentrex


you're leaving things out, though. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that Snoke is one of, if not THE, most powerful entity we've seen so far. Writers and actors all seem to think this and he has accomplishments as a telepath? What about all of his hype as being this knowledgable, powerful creature from the unknown regions, themselves a point of space where great power and mystery lies?


No writer or actor has said this.

He just quoted the author of TLJ to you saying the opposite.

Honestly the desire from some Trolls for Snoke to be the biggest baddest thing evever is laughable. He literally did NOTHING. NO significant on screen feats At All.

Just ragdolling a Padawan Whoop!

I would have loved to have seen you all new Snoke fanboys lined up watching TLJ for the first time, to watch how stupidly and ridiculously he gets taken out by his Apprentice.

I don't love Snoke. I don't even like him. He's a terrible villain. I don't have any bias for him. But you can't deny that he's meant to be the big bad.

I think it's pretty telling that he has actually done nothing to be held above Palpatine. He's faced unknown threats in an unknown way in an unknown place? Sign me up on the Snoke train

Originally posted by Zentrex
My point was that if he was a warlord, and if he had masters who taught him how to fight, and he was more powerful than Luke Skywalker, and he has all those scars, then there's strong hints that he fought the terrors in the unknown regions. Again, I'm talking about what we actually *know* about the character... Not how powerful you *think* he is.

Originally posted by Zentrex
What was that quote about Snoke defeating legions of enemies in the unknown regions? You're contorting the context a bit. Here is the excerpt in question:

Why on earth does killing a bunch of people(via completely unknown means) make him the most powerful force-user of all time..? Especially when underestimating Kylo Ren is exactly what ultimately cost Snoke his life...

But as I said: the novel explicitly states that Snoke's knowledge(not power) is what saved the Imperial remnants from the terrors in the UR. Period.

Originally posted by Zentrex
I mean, he was powerful enough to contact JUST Palpatine and the Acolytes of the Beyond from the unknown regions, in such a way that Vader thought Palpatine was going crazy. Eh, has it actually been confirmed that it was Snoke who Palpatine was sensing in the Unknown Regions during the Aftermath Trilogy, or is this just more conjecture?

Originally posted by Zentrex
And then there's the fact that Sidious felt the very SOURCE of the dark side to be in the unknown regions, and Snoke knew all about it. So that knowledge likely IS of the Force. Yes, Snoke had evidently discovered "truths" about the force that Palpatine sought(but never discovered) prior to his death. But again: this doesn't necessarily imply that Snoke's *overall* knowledge exceeded Palpatine's -- just implies that he possessed a few nuggets of information that Palpatine wanted.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Then again, for ONE padawan to take out an entire camp of padawans has to be at least a little impressive, doesn't it? Not really. I mean, Kylo himself was obviously Luke's top student, and he hasn't really impressed me much at all(he's another that would get utterly raped by most noteworthy Jedi/Sith), so meh...

Also keep in mind that the handful of students who followed Kylo likely aided him in the slaughter. Very doubtful that he did it all solo.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Well, the writers and actors seem to think she's just as, if not more powerful than, the jedi we saw in the prequel trilogy. That doesn't hold much weight at all.

Just because the actors play a character in the films doesn't give them the power/authority to canonize their opinions within the franchise.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Not her understanding that the force is not about lifting rocks, and actually gaining a strong connection to it? Not her being able to lift all those boulders at the end of the film? Not her going into that hole and discovering herself? Nothing? Nothing at all? Again, Rey is powerful relative to the amount of training she's had. She is still a complete n00b, however, and very much a work in progress... Owning her as easily as Snoke did was cool and all, but it certainly doesn't equate to the #uber feat you're trying to make it.

Originally posted by Zentrex
We might have to agree to disagree again, because to me, that's precisely how the statement reads. You should look at it again, then, because that's exactly how it reads.

Originally posted by Zentrex
you're leaving things out, though. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that Snoke is one of, if not THE, most powerful entity we've seen so far. Writers and actors all seem to think this and he has accomplishments as a telepath? What about all of his hype as being this knowledgable, powerful creature from the unknown regions, themselves a point of space where great power and mystery lies? Yes, Snoke's psionic abilities are impressive(I have never said otherwise.) Does that automatically slingshot him to the top of the force-totem-pole, though? No, it certainly does not.

*And you reeeally don't want to turn this into an 'accolade war' between Snoke and Palpatine...



Anywho, perhaps at some point in the distant future Snoke will be legitimately confirmed as the most powerful force-user to ever exist in canon. I'm just saying that as of right now, absolutely nothing of substance supports that assertion.

Originally posted by Galan007
Again, I'm talking about what we actually *know* about the character... Not how powerful you *think* he is.

But as I said: the novel explicitly states that Snoke's knowledge(not power) is what saved the Imperial remnants from the terrors in the UR. Period.


Yes, Snoke had evidently discovered "truths" about the force that Palpatine sought(but never discovered) prior to his death. But again: this doesn't necessarily imply that Snoke's *overall* knowledge exceeded Palpatine's -- just implies that he possessed a few nuggets of information that Palpatine wanted.

Yes, Snoke's psionic abilities are impressive(I have never said otherwise.) Does that automatically slingshot him to the top of the force-totem-pole, though? No, it certainly does not.

Why on earth does killing a bunch of people(via completely unknown means) make him the most powerful force-user of all time..? Especially when underestimating Kylo Ren is exactly what ultimately cost Snoke his life...


I don't know if you're deliberately trying to disconnect the pieces every time I put them together or if you just don't understand my arguement, but what we know about Snoke is that he knew things about the force (not space travel routes, that goes to the attendants) that palpatine was after, that were the very source of the dark side, and that allowed him to save the imperial remnants from the threats of the unknown regions. He's also more powerful than Luke, who is past his prime, but can still do the whole force projection thing, so that should make him at least comparable to Vader.

And I'm curious to see why you don't think his accomplishments as a telepath show that he's powerful in the force, because to me, if someone does something which is superior to what we've seen others do, it makes them more powerful than that other person.

Now I know there's no way to prove that it was his force powers that he used to kill his enemies, or screw over Luke, or save the imperial remnants, or fight the threats in the unknown regions. But when you have a character that is stated by word of God to be very powerful in the force, and is shown as a very powerful user onscreen, then what else could the conclusion be?



He was indeed the thing that called to Palpatine from the unknown regions. It's not confirmed, but the information is there for a reason. We're meant to be connecting these threads.



What makes you think that? The creators seem to think that these people are just as powerful as any other jedi. Luke even says "I've only seen this power once before" or something.



I don't know what makes you say that. From canon sources, her rock-lifting feat is one of the better ones.



Let's look at it, then:


Now, this could mean that Snoke was the most powerful being in the galaxy and he would know of everything, as he knew of the rise and fall of the empire.
It could mean that The Emperor was literally the Emperor of the entire galaxy, thereby the most famous person in the galaxy. And the Chiss knew about him, so it would make sense that Snoke would also know about him.
And finally, it could mean that Palpatine was the most powerful force user in the galaxy, so his dark side energies were detected by Snoke.
The 2nd one seems BY FAR the most likely to me.



See now, this is what confirms my view, because you can't "share" force power. You CAN share political power. "If I were Snoke, I'd be careful about letting someone know of me as a potential rival to their political power, because then they'd kill me so I don't take their power."



I disagree.

Originally posted by Zentrex
I don't know if you're deliberately trying to disconnect the pieces every time I put them together or if you just don't understand my arguement, but what we know about Snoke is that he knew things about the force (not space travel routes, that goes to the attendants) that palpatine was after, that were the very source of the dark side, and that allowed him to save the imperial remnants from the threats of the unknown regions. He's also more powerful than Luke, who is past his prime, but can still do the whole force projection thing, so that should make him at least comparable to Vader. The bulk of this is pure conjecture. No offense, but I'm not going to entertain it.

As mentioned, I'm talking about what we actually *know* about the character... Not how powerful you *think* he is.

Originally posted by Zentrex
And I'm curious to see why you don't think his accomplishments as a telepath show that he's powerful in the force, I...I don't think you're quite grasping what I've said here(repeatedly.)

Again, Snoke's psionic abilities were indeed powerful... But strong psionic abilities do not make him the most powerful *overall* force-user by default. Simple.

Originally posted by Zentrex
because to me, if someone does something which is superior to what we've seen others do, it makes them more powerful than that other person. Cool. So that definitely makes Palpatine more powerful than Snoke *overall*, right? I mean, the *overall* force-abilities we've SEEN Palpatine display are far beyond what we've SEEN Snoke display, after all.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Now I know there's no way to prove that it was his force powers that he used to kill his enemies, or screw over Luke, or save the imperial remnants, or fight the threats in the unknown regions. But when you have a character that is stated by word of God to be very powerful in the force, and is shown as a very powerful user onscreen,

then what else could the conclusion be? That he is a powerful force-user... But again, there is huge disparity between Snoke being a powerful force-user, and him being the most powerful force-user ever in canon... I don't think you're quite grasping that.

Your conclusion is based primarily on personal conjecture/opinion... Yet you're trying to sell it as incontrovertible canon fact. This is strange.

Originally posted by Zentrex
He was indeed the thing that called to Palpatine from the unknown regions. It's not confirmed, but the information is there for a reason. We're meant to be connecting these threads. Exactly. IT HAS NOT BEEN CONFIRMED.

Lets not act like it is irrefutable evidence, until it's *actually* irrefutable evidence.

Originally posted by Zentrex
What makes you think that? The creators seem to think that these people are just as powerful as any other jedi. Luke even says "I've only seen this power once before" or something. Rey and Ben both have huge potential(duh.) However, neither of them have really began tapping-into that potential to any significant extent, based on what we've seen. As of now, they'd BOTH get their asses handed to them by most noteworthy Jedi/Sith -- potential be damned.

Look at AotC Anakin: MASSIVE potential(far more than anyone else in his era), yet he was stomped by Dooku, despite having YEARS more formal training than Rey as a Padawan. As I said: untapped potential is irrelevant in a battle.

Originally posted by Zentrex
I don't know what makes you say that. From canon sources, her rock-lifting feat is one of the better ones. And Kanan's final showing in Rebels was one of the better canon feats as well. Doesn't change the fact that he was mediocre *overall*.

Originally posted by Zentrex
See now, this is what confirms my view, because you can't "share" force power. You CAN share political power. "If I were Snoke, I'd be careful about letting someone know of me as a potential rival to their political power, because then they'd kill me so I don't take their power." none

You're better than this.

Palpatine not having knowledge is a large part of his character too... hence the stories where he's always seeking more knowledge.

Look at Rebels for example where Ezra had knowledge he lacked. Ezra isn't more powerful than Palpatine and he knew an absolute huge secret. Sheev still tonguepunched his way into that dimension and almost bruteforced his way in. Somehow

Originally posted by Galan007
The bulk of this is pure conjecture. No offense, but I'm not going to entertain it.

As mentioned, I'm talking about what we actually *know* about the character... Not how powerful you *think* he is.

There is huge disparity between Snoke being a powerful force-user, and him being the most powerful force-user ever in canon... I don't think you're quite grasping that.


What? What I listed was what we know he's done. If you're saying that it's just not known how powerful this makes him, especially by comparison, then I understand where you're coming from, but this isn't conjecture.



So you're arguing that his specialization in psionic powers don't necesarily mean that he's that powerful with every ability? I was using his psionic showings as a way to place his overall power. Because there's no reason to think that he's more powerful pisonically than he is in other areas.



In canon? Isn't Snoke's force bond between Kylo and Rey the single most powerful feat in canon? I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that it was.



Okay, I'll drop the whole "what he did in the unknown regions" argument and stick to how he compares to Palpy, Luke, and whoever else I find he compares his abilities to.

On that, he is more powerful than TLJ Luke.



Maybe. But there's no way to know. I was under the impression that Rey and Kylo are just as powerful as prequel trilogy jedi. You seem to be under the impression that they're padawan level. I know my knowledge comes from feats in TLJ, but I don't know where your knowledge is coming from.



But that was one moment of oneness with the force. Rey did what she did unstrained, and could replicate it.



care to explain in more detail?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Palpatine not having knowledge is a large part of his character too... hence the stories where he's always seeking more knowledge.

Look at Rebels for example where Ezra had knowledge he lacked. Ezra isn't more powerful than Palpatine and he knew an absolute huge secret. Sheev still tonguepunched his way into that dimension and almost bruteforced his way in. Somehow

Okay, but Ezra's ability to basically view any moment in all of space and time does make him a very powerful person, though his application of telekenesis and other force abilities may not be powerful.

Snoke, we know, has the knowledge of the foundation of the force and the "wellspring of the dark side". We've seen that he's a powerful force user and considering he's bringing abilities like suspending animation, causing people to fall asleep, mind probing (new to some extent), and psionic powers to the table, it makes sense that his ballyhooed "knowledge" was what made him so powerful.
So he's not like Ezra, in that he has more than just one trick that the emperor doesn't. He has POWER that the emperor doesn't.
And there's the whole thing with him contacting the emperor telepathically, and knowing exactly how it played out that day on the death star when the emperor died.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Okay, but Ezra's ability to basically view any moment in all of space and time does make him a very powerful person, though his application of telekenesis and other force abilities may not be powerful.

Snoke, we know, has the knowledge of the foundation of the force and the "wellspring of the dark side". We've seen that he's a powerful force user and considering he's bringing abilities like suspending animation, causing people to fall asleep, mind probing (new to some extent), and psionic powers to the table, it makes sense that his ballyhooed "knowledge" was what made him so powerful.
So he's not like Ezra, in that he has more than just one trick that the emperor doesn't. He has POWER that the emperor doesn't.
And there's the whole thing with him contacting the emperor telepathically, and knowing exactly how it played out that day on the death star when the emperor died. He had knowledge that made him powerful, but that knowledge doesn't add up into being more powerful, simply more esoteric in nature... maybe.

Ezra had knowledge that allowed him to kill or save any person ever in time and Sheev still chased him out of it... physically.

Simply having knowledge doesn't make you more powerful than someone. Especially in Sheev's case. He is always learning new things, and it's a large part of his character. Just because he knows things that Sheev doesn't, that doesn't mean that he knows things that Sheev does.

Sheev literally punched through an unbreakable dimension and almost dragged his way in as his last feat. Snoke is going to need a lot more than assumptions to beat Sheev out as the top dog.

Originally posted by Zentrex
If you're saying that it's just not known how powerful this makes him, especially by comparison, then I understand where you're coming from That's what I'm saying. Most of the 'feats' Snoke has are unquantifiable at this point.

You can't just make up the dots and then connect them however you want, man.

Originally posted by Zentrex
So you're arguing that his specialization in psionic powers don't necesarily mean that he's that powerful with every ability? Yes.

Being powerful in one area doesn't necessarily mean he's equally as powerful in every area across the board.

Originally posted by Zentrex
In canon? Isn't Snoke's force bond between Kylo and Rey the single most powerful feat in canon? I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that it was. In terms of psionic feats, yeah, he's up there.

Though I'd argue that Palpatine forcing his way into TWBW without a formal gateway is a far more impressive feat overall... The implications of that are just staggering.

Originally posted by Zentrex
On that, he is more powerful than TLJ Luke. I'm sure you have actual evidence to substantiate this claim?

Originally posted by Zentrex
Maybe. But there's no way to know. I was under the impression that Rey and Kylo are just as powerful as prequel trilogy jedi. Wait, so one good TK feat puts Rey on par with the noteworthy PT-era Jedi/Sith overall?

You think the likes of Kenobi, or Mace, or Dooku would have struggled with the Praetorian Guards as much as Rey and Kylo did..? C'mon. srsly

Originally posted by Zentrex
But that was one moment of oneness with the force. Rey did what she did unstrained, and could replicate it. Doesn't change anything. Seems like you're just digging for reasons to try and make Rey seem more powerful than she actually was, just so you argue that Snoke was also more powerful by proxy.

You're better than this type of horridly skewed non-logic.

Originally posted by Zentrex
care to explain in more detail? If you're asking for clarification, then you're not ready to hear it, tbh.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
He can say whatever he wants about his character as long as he's not spoiling the movie. He doesn't have the ability to canonize anything.

Was just wondering if you agreed with Thor having the power to kill fp IG Thanos? Glad you agree with it.

The feat guy with subjective interpretations... come on Quan. You champion every bad guy of the film you like.

Luke was scared of her raw potential and ability to fall to the darkside, not her actual current power. He just had someone with the same potential turn on him. Same with Sidious with Luke and his Skywalker blood, and we saw Sidious in a direct faceoff blast the shit out of Luke. Just like Snoke was so worried about Luke's ability to make the Jedi rise again. None of those have any relation to current power standings.

Maybe that will change in the future but right now you can't say with fact that Snoke is more powerful in canon. And The Novel is more canon than an interview from Serkis, so Disney has to pull out something to prove it. Nothing is stopping them from putting it in anything they print though, but they haven't.

Just to make this easier for myself, your points are

1. Snoke's feats are unquantifiable.
2. He's only powerful in psionics

Alright, fine. I'll give you this: There is no reason to believe that Snoke's raw power is necessarily greater than that of Palpatine, because his feats can't be measured against Palpatine's (or most other characters).

But that's all I'll give you, because we've never been shown Snoke's upper limit, and he does have powers which are superior to Palpatine. We see this when he contacted Palpatine from the Unknown Regions. If he was to get into a duel, he would win, though his raw power is questionable. This is not the same case with Ezra.

Snoke still remains the most capable force user, or at least would have been before he was hindered with his injuries. And he's still ONE of the most powerful in the mythos.

There's really no reason to think that he's more specialized in psionics than in other fields. Most force users don't do that kind of thing, the standard is being equal in your TK, TP, and energy based powers across the board, and then having some more obscure powers be weaker/stronger than the rest.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm sure you have actual evidence to substantiate this claim?

Luke couldn't cause matter to transport when he projected himself, and it killed him, whereas Snoke did it without threat of his survival.



Well, yeah. How many jedi or sith would have been able to do that?



I don't know. We don't know how powerful the guards are.



I'm not. I truly think the creators wanted Rey to be that powerful.



humor me

^ Only in your head.

You jumped the wrong wagon again


Btw youve not given a single legit argument for Snoke or Reys power in your previous post to me. And if you cant be bothered making your posts quoatable then I certainly cant be bothered responding to your essay full of butt hurt drivel.

Bane forever. Also Boba and Jango have the wrong suits. The Boba word always sends me to color blue and Jango to color green.

Quan if I pmd you post pics or stfu lol

Originally posted by Zentrex
Alright, fine. I'll give you this: There is no reason to believe that Snoke's raw power is necessarily greater than that of Palpatine, because his feats can't be measured against Palpatine's (or most other characters). Perfect. No reason to debate this subject any further.

Originally posted by Galan007
Perfect. No reason to debate this subject any further.
I was referring to feats. Not all logic. Common sense which dictates Disney's descisions, what Andy Serkis has said (Though I know you don't believe it, he's gotten Snoke's backstory from Abrams and Johnson, so I put faith into it), and the original concepts for Snoke being uber godlike users of the Force, and the list goes on.

But before you tackle these reasons, please respond the post that my quote that you used is from.

Originally posted by Zentrex
I was referring to feats. Not all logic. Common sense which dictates Disney's descisions, what Andy Serkis has said (Though I know you don't believe it, he's gotten Snoke's backstory from Abrams and Johnson, so I put faith into it), and the original concepts for Snoke being uber godlike users of the Force, and the list goes on.

But before you tackle these reasons, please respond the post that my quote that you used is from. Why on earth should I 'tackle' your personal opinion regarding Snoke's theoretical standing in the force hierarchy? For the purposes of this discussion, I don't care what you *think* about his powers -- I am(and have only been) talking about what we can actually *prove* via quantifiable, and canon, feats/accolades up to this point.

That said, not one shred of legitimate evidence(and actors' opinions are NOT canonical evidence, btw, so please stop acting like they're gospel) suggests that Snoke is more powerful overall than Palpatine... Let alone the most powerful force-user to ever exist. 'Nuff said.

Triggered. Not very thrawn like, lol.

Shut up son

Originally posted by Galan007
Why on earth should I 'tackle' your personal opinion regarding Snoke's theoretical standing in the force hierarchy? For the purposes of this discussion, I don't care what you *think* about his powers -- I am(and have only been) talking about what we can actually *prove* via quantifiable, and canon, feats/accolades up to this point.

That said, not one shred of legitimate evidence(and actors' opinions are NOT canonical evidence, btw, so please stop acting like they're gospel) suggests that Snoke is more powerful overall than Palpatine... Let alone the most powerful force-user to ever exist. 'Nuff said.

Well, nothing in canon suggets Palpatine is MORE powerful than Snoke, either.

My memories. The first example was in the "jedi knight" game, the expansion Mysteries of the Sith

You seem to think that projecting yourself over half the galaxy for 10 minutes straight isn't difficult. The movie treats it as difficult. Nowhere else in canon have we see this. So, the only logical conclusion is that it's difficult.

The only thing that supports the notion that it's not difficult is legends, which isn't canon.



Maybe not in his old age, but I was referring to Return of the Jedi. My point was that even if he's decreased in power, he was once VERY powerful, so it's not like he's a weakling.

Also, he didn't lose to Rey or to Kylo. He was distracted when he got cheapshotted by Kylo (it'd be like saying Snoke is worse than Kylo) and he let Rey win.



His body disappeared and he became a force ghost. We learn in episode 3 that Qui-Gon discovered how to do this by giving himself to the living force. Obi Wan did this before Vader could kill him, and Luke did it after having finished his character arc.



Snoke is indeed more powerful, and Palpatine never demonstrated as powerful of a feat.



Rey and Kylo also used force abilities when fighting, so why didn't they against the preatorians? They were distracted, that's why.



You're either not understanding me, or misrepresenting me. And I'm pretty sure it's the latter. First of all, I said don't compare them to Vader, they're as powerful as PT era jedi, not the one who killed all of them. Secondly, the preatorians are better fighters, so they'd distract Vader better.



The point was to show that force users can't (more like don't) always use their force abilities when it makes sense to do so.



He did evade her every attack.



Stop mentioning legends material. It's irrelevant. And pushing her away with a blade of plasma in her hand (and near all these sharp rocks and unstable heights) is dangerous. The best he could have done is pinned her to the ground, but he's a pacifist, so why bother?

Originally posted by Zentrex
Well, nothing in canon suggets Palpatine is MORE powerful than Snoke, either. ...Except for the plethora of high-end *feats* Palpatine has under his belt, lol.

Originally posted by Galan007
...Except for the plethora of high-end *feats* Palpatine has under his belt, lol.

but how do you know they make him more powerful than Snoke? He's done nothing more powerful than what Snoke's done.

And before you mention the TWBW feat, we don't actually know if that required someone to be powerful at all. Maybe he just needed to have knowledge of the ritual, regardless of power. Maybe as long as you're tethered to someone in the world between worlds (Ezra), you can use them to get in regardless of power.

And the powerscaling argument won't work either, because even Yoda's done nothing more commendable than what Snoke and Luke accomplished in the Last Jedi.

Originally posted by Zentrex
but how do you know they make him more powerful than Snoke? Because I, unlike you, am not using my personal opinion, in lieu of canonical evidence, to try and gauge Snoke... Nor am I applying no-limits fallacies based on the opinions of actors...

As mentioned, I am ONLY discussing what can be PROVEN at this time, via QUANTIFIABLE feats/accolades... Why is is so hard for you to grasp this?

My question was, what's palpatine done that shows he's more powerful than Snoke, or that he's the "top dog"? That's the assumption you've been working in, so prove it. Give me one feat which outdoes Snoke's or Luke's in the Last Jedi

Are you seriously asking me to post all of Palpatine's noteworthy feats/accolades here, lol? Good God.

The willful intransigence is staggering, tbh. You have continuously moved goalposts, and thrown around red-herring after red-herring in an effort to hyper-wank Snoke to hysterically illogical/fallacious levels. That said, I'm done wasting my time here... This 'discussion' has devolved into borderline idiocy at this point, and I see no reason to continue indulging it.

It's been real...

Galan as always bows out when someone calls him out to prove his opinion. This is who he has always been. Mentally weak.

Originally posted by Zentrex
My question was, what's palpatine done that shows he's more powerful than Snoke, or that he's the "top dog"? That's the assumption you've been working in, so prove it. Give me one feat which outdoes Snoke's or Luke's in the Last Jedi


Lol even Maul can replicate the TP thing.

Heck he did it when he connected Ezra to Kenobi.


Now what has Snoke done that even comes to Force choking another Sith Lord from star systems away? Or fighting competitively in Saber fights with possibly the 2 most capable Jedi combatants in history.

Theres literally no argument here for Snoke.

Its not for you to decide what Disney would or wouldnt do.. thats just a sad argument because theres literally nothing concrete. Nothing special at all, just a guy who got cleaved in 2 by his own apprentice.

Pablo Hidalgo already confirmed Serkis words/opinion meant nothing. Keep stringing to fake evidence though. You have nothing else.

Wrong Canon.

Originally posted by Galan007
Are you seriously asking me to post all of Palpatine's noteworthy feats/accolades here, lol? Good God.

The willful intransigence is staggering, tbh. You have continuously moved goalposts, and thrown around red-herring after red-herring in an effort to hyper-wank Snoke to hysterically illogical/fallacious levels. That said, I'm done wasting my time here... This 'discussion' has devolved into borderline idiocy at this point, and I see no reason to continue indulging it.

It's been real...

Just for the record, Galan, I just asked for one feat.

I shouldn't have given you the "I admit there's no feat based reason to think Snoke is superior" excuse to leave. But I'll accept that we're done here. I would've liked to see my other points adressed, and you've done nothing to convince me that anything I said was wrong, but I'm sure this isn't the end of all discussion based around Snoke's powers.

The truth is, there's little enough information on some of these characters that you could make the argument you're making, but you could just as easily make the argument I'm making. And I guess the only reason I side with the one I'm making is because I think the reasons I've used are more valid than the ones you've used, but that's not an objective fact, so (as you like to say) /shrug.

You do act as if my reasons are stupid though. This is because you think they're completely subjective, but every analysis needs some subjective reasoning to rank it. Your rankings of feats and characters (namely Sheev and his TWBW feat) have that hint of subjectivity. So don't pretend that you're solely relying on facts any more than I am.

But yeah, good talk.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Lol even Maul can replicate the TP thing.

Heck he did it when he connected Ezra to Kenobi.

That was by connecting the holocron pieces, not through Maul's own power.

Snoke is the only one who's been shown to be able to create a bond, and activate it whenever he wants to. Even Sidious needed a long ritual before he could create the dark illusion between Dooku and Yoda.



Creating a force bond from star systems away.

Fighting is a matter of skill, not raw force power. Sidious fightning Maul does not prove him to be a more powerful force user than Snoke.

1. Alright, fine, my memories don't count, but projection was canonically easier in legends than in canon. And just because Sidious released handcuffs over lightyears doesn't prove he could survive projecting himself for 10 minutes over lightyears.

2. Luke wasn't trying to kill Vader at first either. And niether had an advantage. Then, when Luke became rage-amped, Vader couldn't defend himself. That's my account of what happened anyway. What's yours?

3. Yes, cheap shot. Luke looked into a loved one's mind, saw terrors which he'd never seen before, and almost considered killing him. Being horrified at his own actions, he looked away, when Kylo unleashed a force push so strong it destoyed the hut. This caught Luke off-guard and at a vulnerable point, and caused him to pass out.

4. Watch the scene again, Vader did not strike Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan disappeared into the force before that could happen. Either one of us is blind, or you're lying to me.

5. Dooku wasn't trying to resist. And even if he was, it still wouldn't compare to what Snoke and Luke did.




6.My point is, you don't know that Dooku or Ventress could have defeated the Preatorian guards just because they've demonstrated incorporation of force abilities in their fights.

7. If they're better fighters, they can more quickly and effectively distract a force user from choking them.



8. Yoda would have been in that situation because a Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defence. never for attack. Palpatine wouldn't have been, because he does use the force for attack.

Luke shielded himself from death when he fell back with the force, and he didn't fall until he decided it would be best to just tell her the story.

I really don't understand why you believe what you believe, because from what I've seen, everything from the originals to the sequels have implied that Luke was a very powerful force user and that if he had decided to fight (would be totally out of his character), he would have won. I'd like to know what made you scale canon Luke where you did, because I'm just not seeing it.

And please don't respond with "end of story" or "that's what happened" or anything which just shows that our interpretations of literally every scene we've talked about so far are different. Give me the details which made you feel the way you do.



9. You can mention what you want, but at least mention what makes sense. Things are different in legends, especially how powerful characters/abilities are. So you continually using legends material to show the power of characters and abilities does nothing for canon or this argument.



10. See this is it. You only believe Sidious is the top dog because he was the top dog in legends (barr Luke). Now in the new canon, Luke and Snoke have seemingly surpassed him.
He's not as powerful in canon. Still the third most powerful we've seen, but without Dark Empire, Darth Plagueis, Dark Randevous, The RotS novel, etc., he doesn't have the top feats anymore.



11. What if she doesn't drop it, but accidentally hits herself with it? Wielding somethign that can burn through anything upon touch is dangrous to yourself.