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I keep reading Graviton is trans and far above heralds.

Really, let's test this.

Surfer runs a train on him

Graviton is trans when he faces anyone outside marvel.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Surfer runs a train on him


Pretty much

Originally posted by abhilegend
Graviton is trans when he faces anyone outside marvel.



Pretty much

Hey Leo/Operator, tell us how Graviton is trans tier here.

The Silver Surfer has great control over gravity as well for instance manipulating the gravity of two planets to be in compatible orbit. So there's really nothing Graviton could do to him that he could not counter. Not even mentioning his advantages like speed and telepathy.

https://i.imgur.com/RNc92gCh.jpg

Can he defeat these many characters at once though?

https://image.ibb.co/iG1nFy/D6_E16_ABE_6596_4115_95_F6_0_A1_EB050_FAFA.jpg

Skyfather level Graviton man.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hey Leo/Operator, tell us how Graviton is trans tier here. Much as I have time for both the aforementioned posters, Leo particularly. They know that they can't. Graviton is a glass cannon.

Surfer also recently encountered a being who had the gravitational pull of a planet (warrior zero i think it was) and he was choking the surfer until he got saved. Later on in the series he handled him quite easily from what i remember. He has also other gravitational resisting feats but point here is that he has highs and he has lows and if we average it out i think graviton wins. And pretty handily at that.

Oh and putinbot, shut the **** up.

Originally posted by operator616
Surfer also recently encountered a being who had the gravitational pull of a planet (warrior zero i think it was) and he was choking the surfer until he got saved. Later on in the series he handled him quite easily from what i remember. He has also other gravitational resisting feats but point here is that he has highs and he has lows and if we average it out i think graviton wins. And pretty handily at that.

Oh and putinbot, shut the **** up. So what your saying is Graviton has more highs than Surfer? Has Graviton ever moved Planets? I mean he has over extended himself and become an Oozara Graviton Rock Monster. I gave you a compliment pal, why so triggered?

Originally posted by Putinbot1
So what your saying is Graviton has more highs than Surfer? Has Graviton ever moved Planets? I mean he has over extended himself and become an Oozara Graviton Rock Monster. I gave you a compliment pal, why so triggered?

Im saying he wins based on relative portrayal, since he was superior to heralds throughout his appearances. You can go ahead and mention Surfer highs as you like, i guarantee you id be able to match it with an otherwise unremarkable showing for surfer but i don't like going on low balling fests. Basically if we average it out, Graviton should win handily.

Im not triggered btw, i just dislike your snarky comment of me unable to prove that Graviton is trans tier when i made my case in that other thread. Or at least that's what i got from your post.

Originally posted by operator616
Im saying he wins based on relative portrayal, since he was superior to heralds throughout his appearances. You can go ahead and mention Surfer highs as you like, i guarantee you id be able to match it with an otherwise unremarkable showing for surfer but i don't like going on low balling fests. Basically if we average it out, Graviton should win handily.

Im not triggered btw, i just dislike your snarky comment of me unable to prove that Graviton is trans tier when i made my case in that other thread. Or at least that's what i got from your post. Wasn't being snarky; I enjoy your posts more than most. I disagree about him being trans, and Leo and I go way back, so I know more of his posting and have a preference due to quantity. While I disagree with your conclusion doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading your ideas.

Alright fair enough.

Originally posted by operator616
Surfer also recently encountered a being who had the gravitational pull of a planet (warrior zero i think it was) and he was choking the surfer until he got saved. Later on in the series he handled him quite easily from what i remember. He has also other gravitational resisting feats but point here is that he has highs and he has lows and if we average it out i think graviton wins. And pretty handily at that.


Surfer one-shotted Warrior One once he got serious in their last encounter and resisted having the gravity force of an entire planet around his throat in the first meeting. And he won both fights under his own power even though he never wanted to fight, and was worried about civilians in the first meetings.

https://i.imgur.com/ceQWU0lh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rniFeV4h.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RBTzqrsh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ugaxjpQh.jpg

Graviton is not beating Surfer who is better than him at everything. Plus Surfer could energy drain or just trap him in his board. Surfer can causally create black holes while destroying a planet. What is Graviton going to do that will stop him?

https://i.imgur.com/0QSeZbnh.jpg

Originally posted by Supermutant
Surfer one-shotted Warrior One once he got serious in their last encounter and resisted having the gravity force of an entire planet around his throat in the first meeting. And he won both fights under his own power even though he never wanted to fight, and was worried about civilians in the first meetings.

https://i.imgur.com/ceQWU0lh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rniFeV4h.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RBTzqrsh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ugaxjpQh.jpg

Graviton is not beating Surfer who is better than him at everything. Plus Surfer could energy drain or just trap him in his board. Surfer can causally create black holes while destroying a planet. What is Graviton going to do that will stop him?

https://i.imgur.com/0QSeZbnh.jpg Yeah, Surfer is the definition of Herald. The class is named after him.

Originally posted by operator616
Im saying he wins based on relative portrayal, since he was superior to heralds throughout his appearances. You can go ahead and mention Surfer highs as you like, i guarantee you id be able to match it with an otherwise unremarkable showing for surfer but i don't like going on low balling fests. Basically if we average it out, Graviton should win handily.

Im not triggered btw, i just dislike your snarky comment of me unable to prove that Graviton is trans tier when i made my case in that other thread. Or at least that's what i got from your post. Yeah but he beats or does good against those people because he uses gravity against them. Throw a little gravity here, a little gravity there.
Surfer meanwhile has some of the best gravity resist in the game. Even in his Thunderbolts feat he had to use the sun as it was the biggest gravity source to beat The Shadow Rapist.

A little like trying to drown Magneto in metal. Or strangle Firelord with flame. Surfer is Marvel's Vegeta when it comes to gravity.

Originally posted by Supermutant
Surfer one-shotted Warrior One once he got serious in their last encounter and resisted having the gravity force of an entire planet around his throat in the first meeting. And he won both fights under his own power even though he never wanted to fight, and was worried about civilians in the first meetings.

(irrelevant scans)


Why are you showing me oversized scans that i have referenced myself? Does this somehow prove your point?

Surfer was getting choked until Dawn saved him: https://imgur.com/a/eymsbut

Choke on that.

this was my exact point. Surfer was getting beaten in the first encounter but beat warrior zero/one in their second encounter. It was exactly my argument. That surfer has highs and lows as anybody with basic knowledge knows.

Originally posted by Supermutant

Graviton is not beating Surfer who is better than him at everything. Plus Surfer could energy drain or just trap him in his board. Surfer can causally create black holes while destroying a planet. What is Graviton going to do that will stop him?



Uh, beat him? Just like, y'know, Medusa/Karnak KO'd him? Just like Runner beat him? Just like Obliterator beat him? Just like Morg beat him? Just like WM thor beat him? Just like random space pirates beat him? Just like a random meteor chunk has KO'd him (several times)? just like random SHIELD agents with some stark tech KO'd him? Just like HE has beaten him?

Should i go on or is that enough? But please continue mentioning his high end feats.

Surfer himself admitted that creating a black hole is never his go to tactic anyway in Silver surfer: In thy name. And Graviton can increase his density to infinity as well.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
I keep reading Graviton is trans and far above heralds. Graviton is no Hulk

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Yeah but he beats or does good against those people because he uses gravity against them. Throw a little gravity here, a little gravity there.
Surfer meanwhile has some of the best gravity resist in the game. Even in his Thunderbolts feat he had to use the sun as it was the biggest gravity source to beat The Shadow Rapist.

A little like trying to drown Magneto in metal. Or strangle Firelord with flame. Surfer is Marvel's Vegeta when it comes to gravity.

I disagree, i just referenced an example where he was being choked by warrior zero. Sometimes he does good sometimes he doesn't. Wasn't he also unable to resist a black hole in Galactus the devourer?

I actually never got the impression that surfer was the gravity master that you're making him out to be. But im open to change my mind.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Graviton is no Hulk Hahaha

Originally posted by operator616
I disagree, i just referenced an example where he was being choked by warrior zero. Sometimes he does good sometimes he doesn't. Wasn't he also unable to resist a black hole in Galactus the devourer?

I actually never got the impression that surfer was the gravity master that you're making him out to be. But im open to change my mind. Come on Operator Bran's right mate, as soon as it gets serious Surfer kicks zero's butt. He'd do the same but much more easily to Graviton. Not to mention he has so much more in his arsenal.

Bran is making shiet up. He doesn't even read surfer.






Abhi is the real surfer expert.

Originally posted by operator616
I disagree, i just referenced an example where he was being choked by warrior zero. Sometimes he does good sometimes he doesn't. Wasn't he also unable to resist a black hole in Galactus the devourer?

I actually never got the impression that surfer was the gravity master that you're making him out to be. But im open to change my mind. Surfer's powers allowed him to be at a center of a black hole, and actively fight a peer.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/97299/1926964-galactusthedevourer217yj3.jpg

Consider your mind changed.

I think the above post is an end thread and end argument post from Phil.

Enough said, Graviton is not Trans. /end

Originally posted by operator616
I disagree, i just referenced an example where he was being choked by warrior zero. Sometimes he does good sometimes he doesn't. Wasn't he also unable to resist a black hole in Galactus the devourer?

I actually never got the impression that surfer was the gravity master that you're making him out to be. But im open to change my mind. The gravitational pull of a planet around his throat is either the entire force concentrated on his throat which is who knows, or just the normal pull of the planet. Which would question how he even exits planets. Either way, he was holding back.


He fought inside a black hole in that series without his board... probably not the best feat to say that he did bad against gravity.
He flies through suns all the time. Korvac magnetized his entire body so he became the core of a planet. Various black hole and worm hole things too.

His lowest feats are getting sucked into a black hole and the Warrior Zero one off the top of my head in respect to gravity. Not exactly the worst.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
The gravitational pull of a planet around his throat is either the entire force concentrated on his throat which is who knows, or just the normal pull of the planet. Which would question how he even exits planets. Either way, he was holding back.


He fought inside a black hole in that series without his board... probably not the best feat to say that he did bad against gravity.
He flies through suns all the time. Korvac magnetized his entire body so he became the core of a planet. Various black hole and worm hole things too.

His lowest feats are getting sucked into a black hole and the Warrior Zero one off the top of my head in respect to gravity. Not exactly the worst. Agreed, when Graviton lost control of his powers and got sucked into a black hole of his own creation he transformed into a mindless rock creature...

Originally posted by operator616
Why are you showing me oversized scans that i have referenced myself? Does this somehow prove your point?

Scans are exactly the right size to not break this thread and for everyone to see how clearly wrong you are and continue to be.

Originally posted by operator616
Surfer was getting choked until Dawn saved him: https://imgur.com/a/eymsbut

Dawn didn't save him, Surfer could had easily turn intangible or blast him, or just transmute his armor like he did to Nebula. This is a perfect example of character forgetting their powerset to advance a story. Here to make Dawn relevant when she is surely not. Someone with cosmic awareness needs an earthling to tell them how to use their powers lol. And furthermore in a forum Surfer will use his powers.

Originally posted by operator616
Choke on that.

Choke on what? That Surfer despite having the force of an entire planet around his throat was able to resist it w/o any lasting damage and still able to talk with Dawn. And you know still able to use his powers. So, how exactly is that going to help Graviton. Seems like you are the one choking on your own foot in mouth.

Originally posted by operator616
this was my exact point. Surfer was getting beaten in the first encounter but beat warrior zero/one in their second encounter. It was exactly my argument. That surfer has highs and lows as anybody with basic knowledge knows.

You are stating obvious things like it means something. When a character is first introduce they typically have a good showing in the beginning. It was clear to anyone who read the whole comic and their subsequent meetings that Warrior One was no match for a serious Surfer as evident by Surfer one-shotting him after Surfer tried everything to avoid the conflict including faking defeat. Every character has highs and lows how is that important here at all?


Originally posted by operator616
Uh, beat him? Just like, y'know, Medusa/Karnak KO'd him? Just like Runner beat him? Just like Obliterator beat him? Just like Morg beat him? Just like WM thor beat him? Just like random space pirates beat him? Just like a random meteor chunk has KO'd him (several times)? just like random SHIELD agents with some stark tech KO'd him? Just like HE has beaten him?

Should i go on or is that enough? But please continue mentioning his high end feats.

Playing the low ball game hint ironman hint is the first sign of a terrible and losing argument. So you just going to ignore context or bring up characters like Runner who would easily blitz and beat Graviton in a standard forum setting.

Originally posted by operator616
Surfer himself admitted that creating a black hole is never his go to tactic anyway in Silver surfer: In thy name. And Graviton can increase his density to infinity as well.

The point that you keep forgetting is that Surfer doesn't have to beat Graviton in gravity manipulation although he can. He only has to defend against it, and he has plenty of feats doing that. Meanwhile Graviton has no answer for Surfer's standard blitz, or mental attacks, or getting trapped in his board, or energy drain, lol or any number of things it is so many.

Originally posted by Supermutant
Scans are exactly the right size to not break this thread and for everyone to see how clearly wrong you are and continue to be.



Dawn didn't save him, Surfer could had easily turn intangible or blast him, or just transmute his armor like he did to Nebula. This is a perfect example of character forgetting their powerset to advance a story. Here to make Dawn relevant when she is surely not. Someone with cosmic awareness needs an earthling to tell them how to use their powers lol. And furthermore in a forum Surfer will use his powers.



Choke on what? That Surfer despite having the force of an entire planet around his throat was able to resist it w/o any lasting damage and still able to talk with Dawn. And you know still able to use his powers. So, how exactly is that going to help Graviton. Seems like you are the one choking on your own foot in mouth.



You are stating obvious things like it means something. We a character is first introduce they typically have a good showing in the beginning. It was clear to anyone who read the whole comic and their subsequent meetings that Warrior One was no match for a serious Surfer as evident by Surfer one-shotting him after Surfer tried everything to avoid the conflict including faking defeat. Every character has highs and lows how is that important here at all?




Playing the low ball game hint ironman hint is the first sign of a terrible and losing argument. So you just going to ignore context or bring up characters like Runner who would easily blitz Graviton in a standard forum setting.



The point that you keep forgetting is that Surfer doesn't have to beat Graviton in gravity manipulation although he can. He only has to defend against it, and he has plenty of feats doing that. Meanwhile Graviton has no answer for Surfer's standard blitz, or mental attacks, or getting trapped in his board, or energy drain, lol or any number of things it so many. Bloody good post mate!

this is apples and oranges. and at lol abhi's somehow trying to conflate ss and orion, like saying since ss beats graviton, so orion would, right? because their power sets are so close? good lord abhi. and i never said he was trans, so get your baiting right at least, yes? he is def high herald though.

graviton's power can and has proven to have planetary range. ss likewise has controled elements on a planetary scale. unfortunately for graviton, ss has a much larger array of abilities to fall back on than orion does--unless you count his miracle box of course which apparently is the answer to every battle he'll be in from now on. tp is certainly an option for ss. could ss simply counter his gravity control? no, not imo. but could graviton counter matter manipulation? not that i've seen. maybe his shields would hold up, but impossible to say for sure. if ss fought by charging and blasting, he'd def be in trouble, like any herald would. but his more exotic powers would be very difficult for graviton to counter, based on what i've seen of him.

someone like loki would also be a huge problem for graviton in a forum setting. graviton's powerset is more than sufficient to beat most, and he is absolutely a true team wrecker (unlike some that are called that) but certain power sets are simply difficult to counter, especially in a forum setting. ss def has the means and power set to take him out, though he would have to be smart about it.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
The gravitational pull of a planet around his throat is either the entire force concentrated on his throat which is who knows, or just the normal pull of the planet. Which would question how he even exits planets. Either way, he was holding back.


He fought inside a black hole in that series without his board... probably not the best feat to say that he did bad against gravity.
He flies through suns all the time. Korvac magnetized his entire body so he became the core of a planet. Various black hole and worm hole things too.

His lowest feats are getting sucked into a black hole and the Warrior Zero one off the top of my head in respect to gravity. Not exactly the worst.

Fair enough. I can see this being a compelling case.

Originally posted by operator616
Fair enough. I can see this being a compelling case. Fair play Operator. Kudos!

graviton is capable of concentrated microgravity bursts though, so he CAN focus his power into tiny places. but yeah, ss's power set is something that graviton--and most--would have a difficult time countering if used fully.

Originally posted by leonidas
graviton is capable of concentrated microgravity bursts though, so he CAN focus his power into tiny places. but yeah, ss's power set is something that graviton--and most--would have a difficult time countering if used fully. Yes it is Leo and that is hy he along with Superman and Thor are the prime heralds.

Truthfully, If Thor went esoteric on him he would struggle particularly if the setting involved no casualties to innocents. Thor Could just attack from space or battlefield remove etc. Would Gravitons shields survive a God Blast? Who knows Thor's best Space Cheese feats like Surfer's put him above Graviton in my opinion. Thor also can survive in Space, Graviton has to sleep. so even if he takes a bubble of air with him if Thor removes him into Space or destroys the planet he is on Graviton dies.

Norrin wins, with ease.

Originally posted by leonidas
graviton is capable of concentrated microgravity bursts though, so he CAN focus his power into tiny places. but yeah, ss's power set is something that graviton--and most--would have a difficult time countering if used fully. I have to be honest, I'm thinking of giving Graviton the win. I'm too adamant about not using 'cosmic' cheese feats - otherwise, well, somebody like Superman, Green Lanterns, Sufer etc. who've walked through black holes would just simply plow through all of Graviton's attacks. And on the other hand we have Thor being helpless against him. I can't reconcile that, as it would make Thor quite the b itch . The only thing holding me back is that it's such a specific ability, and not just 'general' durability. It's like saying that Human Torch can fry a Green Lantern who flies through suns. So it's, like so many times, relative portrayals vs cheese showings.

That's why I'm saying he's got a good track record against it. At the very least it affords him more defense than Butterfingered Thor with his cape and whacker.

Plus it's not like he completely blew Thor out too. It's just not a power he should be as vulnerable to as Thor, not that he'd be completely immune.

Hulk losing to it is surprising though. Guess that's why it happened off panel so they didn't have to explain it.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
That's why I'm saying he's got a good track record against it. At the very least it affords him more defense than Butterfingered Thor with his cape and whacker.

Plus it's not like he completely blew Thor out too. It's just not a power he should be as vulnerable to as Thor, not that he'd be completely immune.

Hulk losing to it is surprising though. Guess that's why it happened off panel so they didn't have to explain it. I go back to that scan with Red Shift, where it says their powers protect them. So it's basically his 'power' that counters gravity. That, coupled with other feats of gravity manip..

If it would be pure 'hey, how limp-wristed is Thor/Hulk compared to Surfer physically?', I'd also be firmly on the 'eh, relative portrayals', because Surfer is not obviously physically stronger than those two. But he has his ace 'power protection' in the pocket. So if it's a differentiation like that, and not 'hey, he is so strong and durable that he's chilling in a black hole so he has infinite durability' bullshit, I'd maybe switch. I dunno. I remember thinking about this a few years ago, too, when I wanted to make Graviton vs x threads.

^ So i decided to recheck the Galactus the devourer instance as well.

Surfer was unable to resist the gravitational pull of a black hole but only because his power was divided, his powers did enable Alicia to escape. That's what i was misremembering and that's where lies the proof of him being able to resist gravity (among others mentioned). Because him fighting red shift inside of a black hole is proof of durability not gravitational resistance.

For example, if surfer wasn't able to resist the black hole yet fight inside yet, we can make the claim that Graviton is able to pin him down but not crush him. But regardless, that is not the case. I just thought it best clarified.

given graviton's feats, your stance is something i can totally get behind, honestly. just that given the scope of ss's powers it's hard to dismiss his chances in a forum setting. the black hole feat def adds credence to ss's ability to deal with graviton's abilities but the more focused nature may make things different? i dunno. or maybe a focused microgravity pulse into ss's brain?

i certainly don't have any issue with anyone saying graviton can beat him, just seems less likely than many others who lack the complete versatility that ss does.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
The gravitational pull of a planet around his throat is either the entire force concentrated on his throat which is who knows, or just the normal pull of the planet. Which would question how he even exits planets. Either way, he was holding back.


He fought inside a black hole in that series without his board... probably not the best feat to say that he did bad against gravity.
He flies through suns all the time. Korvac magnetized his entire body so he became the core of a planet. Various black hole and worm hole things too.

His lowest feats are getting sucked into a black hole and the Warrior Zero one off the top of my head in respect to gravity. Not exactly the worst.
Not so fast Brandon.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Surfer gets owned by a black hole

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15417321_SS_v3_009_14a_zps6f32b324.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15417322_SS_v3_009_14b_zps4ceb7f9c.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15417323_SS_v3_009_15b_zps9032f545.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15417324_SS_v3_009_16b_zpsa306f7a4.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15417325_SS_v3_009_17a_zps6821d593.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15417326_SS_v3_010_03a_zps6798bc21.jpg

"Almost crushed to nothingness".



Koed by a black hole again.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101113-2425527315-RCO01.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101114-4560853732-RCO01.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101115-4938731777-RCO01.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101116-3034425536-RCO01.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101117-2265725141-RCO01.jpg

Koed again by a black hole.

https://s33.postimg.cc/cqobxzn7f/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/8hjlvtrnv/image.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
Not so fast Brandon.



Koed by a black hole again.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101113-2425527315-RCO01.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101114-4560853732-RCO01.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101115-4938731777-RCO01.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101116-3034425536-RCO01.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101117-2265725141-RCO01.jpg

Koed again by a black hole.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101130-9490308436- lugExQpDVQ0q9bgwuWsJcA27N4N7E_j9qj3EgbWzmbBl4QYa0o
ebZRmePhOtMgbi3LEDEpBOZKSc%3Ds1600

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101131-8577671447- YsR_nwxnP62LXoa_8F1myY5BROdw8L8KLCfyht6D9MOEBfw2RD
E3xeo78ugMsgn-GbrEYOoz2DmU%3Ds1600

first, fix your broken links. second, surfer survived a black hole in the red shift instance which Philo mentioned

Originally posted by leonidas
this is apples and oranges. and at lol abhi's somehow trying to conflate ss and orion, like saying since ss beats graviton, so orion would, right? because their power sets are so close? good lord abhi. and i never said he was trans, so get your baiting right at least, yes? he is def high herald though.

graviton's power can and has proven to have planetary range. ss likewise has controled elements on a planetary scale. unfortunately for graviton, ss has a much larger array of abilities to fall back on than orion does--unless you count his miracle box of course which apparently is the answer to every battle he'll be in from now on. tp is certainly an option for ss. could ss simply counter his gravity control? no, not imo. but could graviton counter matter manipulation? not that i've seen. maybe his shields would hold up, but impossible to say for sure. if ss fought by charging and blasting, he'd def be in trouble, like any herald would. but his more exotic powers would be very difficult for graviton to counter, based on what i've seen of him.

someone like loki would also be a huge problem for graviton in a forum setting. graviton's powerset is more than sufficient to beat most, and he is absolutely a true team wrecker (unlike some that are called that) but certain power sets are simply difficult to counter, especially in a forum setting. ss def has the means and power set to take him out, though he would have to be smart about it.
Right, Orion can't use his versatility but Silver Surfer can who just goes pew pew in most of his fights can.

No bias there leo, none of it.

Also this is always lulzworthy.

https://s33.postimg.cc/nrsnunmjv/RCO008.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/9y4b5m1ob/RCO010.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/5ozl3g64r/RCO011.jpg

This is still the funniest though.

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16263306_SSANN98_14a.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16263307_SSANN98_14b.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
Not so fast Brandon.



Koed by a black hole again.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101113-2425527315-RCO01.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101114-4560853732-RCO01.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101115-4938731777-RCO01.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101116-3034425536-RCO01.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101117-2265725141-RCO01.jpg

Koed again by a black hole.

https://s33.postimg.cc/cqobxzn7f/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/8hjlvtrnv/image.jpg

Right. That elder story was a black hole fest which i failed to mention.

I still think some people are failing to differentiate between a black hole's pull and a black hole's crushing force. The pull is gravity resistance, while the crushing is not. Because it's not unlike surviving deep water pressures. It's basically forces acting on you to crush you, while the pull is an attractive force which pins you down. And that's Graviton's go to tactic, he holds people in his gravitational grip.

Which is why i think Bran's Korvac example is the best one here and what drove the point home, because in that instance Korvac pinned Surfer basically into a planet's core which surfer was able to resist. That's exactly what Graviton's first attack would be like.

@abhi: i'm not sure what isn't getting through to you regarding orion, but you REALLY seem to take my opinion on that subject very personally and are acting like a butthurt d!ck. in the VAST majority of his fights orion doesn't use his MB like a miracle machine ffs. why is that hard to get your head around? i also said tp is an option, if there is proof tp works through his shields. i also said if ss fights by going pew-pew he'd likely lose this. i'm sorry if i hurt your feelings saying graviton beats orion but i'm sure you'll get over it. some day.

@op: the crushing force IS gravity at work in the singularity. there really isn't any difference. a normal person would be stretched by the toes first then as they continued to fall become a piece of spaghetti until there was nothing left WELL before they reached the singularity. or the theory goes, of course. there is a definite crushing force though through the black hole.

there is some support the ss can and can't handle those types of extreme pressure though he is considered more powerful post annihilation so there is that. i'm also unsure if graviton is able to generate that level of force. if he can, he could def win this battle though again, defending against matter manip is a tall order.

Originally posted by leonidas
@abhi: i'm not sure what isn't getting through to you regarding orion, but you REALLY seem to take my opinion on that subject very personally and are acting like a butthurt d!ck. in the VAST majority of his fights orion doesn't use his MB like a miracle machine ffs. why is that hard to get your head around? i also said tp is an option, if there is proof tp works through his shields. i also said if ss fights by going pew-pew he'd likely lose this. i'm sorry if i hurt your feelings saying graviton beats orion but i'm sure you'll get over it. some day.



But you are extending the olive branch to Surfer citing his versatility as to why he wins here when he acts like an idiot in most of his appearances as well.

So Surfer will use his versatility but Orion won't because of your arbitrary rules?

Originally posted by leonidas

@op: the crushing force IS gravity at work in the singularity. there really isn't any difference. a normal person would be stretched by the toes first then as they continued to fall become a piece of spaghetti until there was nothing left WELL before they reached the singularity. or the theory goes, of course. there is a definite crushing force though through the black hole.

They're not the same at all though.

Just refer to the red shift instance. Surfer gets near the singularity and is unable to resist the gravitational pull (yes, his powers were divided but that's beside the point here). And yet he was able to resist the black hole's crushing force while inside the event horizon. Despite the fact that as you get nearer a black hole, the gravitational force increases, so if he is unable to resist a gravitational pull from outside the horizon, he would definitely be unable to resist any pull inside of it. Unless we separate durability from gravitational resistance, that is. Which was clearly the case in that instance. The black hole was crushing him and not pulling him inwards (when he was at the center). Like i said, not unlike withstanding deep water pressures.

So basically, Surfer unable to resist the pull of a black hole could be used as proof that Graviton could pin him down, but not crush him because of durability.

abhi, it has more to do with the amount of times versatility is used. even in his most recent series which was only a few issues long, he used his power in some pretty crazy and creative ways. here, why don't you post scans of orion using his versatility in ways that would prove to be effective against graviton. ds tried showing some reverse polarity scan which...didn't make sense to me at all. if you're so hip on orion's versatility, show some on panel stuff that he's done that will translate to his beating graviton and i'll concede your point.

until then, my point stands. orion rarely--almost never--uses his MB as the plot device you're trying to say it is. and like i said in the other thread--if we DO take into account that it's a little miracle machine, then you better be prepared to say it would work exactly the same against every other character in dc, giving him a plot device power to beat everyone he come up against in the forum. can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Surfer gets owned by a black hole

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15417321_SS_v3_009_14a_zps6f32b324.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15417322_SS_v3_009_14b_zps4ceb7f9c.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15417323_SS_v3_009_15b_zps9032f545.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15417324_SS_v3_009_16b_zpsa306f7a4.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15417325_SS_v3_009_17a_zps6821d593.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15417326_SS_v3_010_03a_zps6798bc21.jpg

"Almost crushed to nothingness".




Typical way out of context scans from Abhy.

Right before going thru that black hole Surfer took a Galactus kill beam attack from the Elders of the Universe with the 6 infinity gems. This attacks designed to drain the life force of Galactus was also channeled through 6 planets. Surfer saved Nova in the process who was being torn apart from said attack. Nova at the direction of the Surfer caused the sun to go nova with created the black hole. A very impressive feat that Surfer was able to survive all of that happening in quick succession in his early less powerful appearances.

https://imgur.com/a/EuIBdVu


Originally posted by abhilegend
Not so fast Brandon.



Koed by a black hole again.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101113-2425527315-RCO01.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101114-4560853732-RCO01.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101115-4938731777-RCO01.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101116-3034425536-RCO01.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6101117-2265725141-RCO01.jpg

Koed again by a black hole.

https://s33.postimg.cc/cqobxzn7f/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/8hjlvtrnv/image.jpg

Again a weaken Surfer goes through a black hole that leads to a mystical universe. Not even the Elders or soul gems could travel through it, and yet all Surfer suffered was at best a quick temporary stun showed by your own scans.

https://imgur.com/WUFO8Qw

Your last misrepresentation is probably the most laughable as the Maurader was manipulating that black hole which caught Surfer unawares. But later Surfer was able to easily amp off of that same black hole. And defeat the Marauder by feeding him into his own black hole. lol

https://imgur.com/a/uRnV9MZ

I would go on specifically and debunk the rest of your old scans. But this will suffice for now. Surfer receive an upgrade during Annihilation, so just more evidence that current Surfer is more powerful than your early showings.

Thor and Orion would have a harder time with Graviton than Surfer. Surfer's powerset may give him a more discernable edge.

Originally posted by leonidas
abhi, it has more to do with the amount of times versatility is used. even in his most recent series which was only a few issues long, he used his power in some pretty crazy and creative ways. here, why don't you post scans of orion using his versatility in ways that would prove to be effective against graviton. ds tried showing some reverse polarity scan which...didn't make sense to me at all. if you're so hip on orion's versatility, show some on panel stuff that he's done that will translate to his beating graviton and i'll concede your point.

until then, my point stands. orion rarely--almost never--uses his MB as the plot device you're trying to say it is. and like i said in the other thread--if we DO take into account that it's a little miracle machine, then you better be prepared to say it would work exactly the same against every other character in dc, giving him a plot device power to beat everyone he come up against in the forum. can't have it both ways.

It not making sense to you does not make it false

As for your point:



You're best arguing that Surfer doesn't use his full abilities in every fight (black holes in the brain, trapped in boards etc) because of his nature. And that Orion loves fighting h2h.

But fact is, Orion will fight dirty.

Originally posted by operator616
Unless we separate durability from gravitational resistance, that is. Which was clearly the case in that instance. The black hole was crushing him and not pulling him inwards (when he was at the center). Like i said, not unlike withstanding deep water pressures.

So basically, Surfer unable to resist the pull of a black hole could be used as proof that Graviton could pin him down, but not crush him because of durability.

i get what you're saying now. that type of explanation is comic book science at it's best. but yeah, of course we'd separate his durability. not sure why you wouldn't...?

i'd also think that he could resist the pull in most cases--technically all he'd need to do is accelerate ftl. i'm sure there is at least one instance of ss flying OUT of a black hole somewhere. maybe even in that red shift arc. he's also teleported in the past, so even if you think he could be pinned, not sure it would matter, or amount to much, regardless.

i did see something that indicates graviton IS capable of generating this level of force though. he did so when he created a worm hole. km showed it in the thor v graviton thread. tbh, that's more power than i even thought graviton had...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It not making sense to you does not make it false


make what false? i just don't see him--except on extremely rare occasions--resorting to anything that would really help him take out graviton via MB. i don't see the polarity scan as being equivalent to the machine man scan for multiple reasons that i mentioned in the other thread. i mean graviton has controled em energy and reversed thor's lightning back on him if we want to go with enormously rare feats. he could simply control the beam and bend it away from him, or just re-reverse...?

and fighting dirty isn't going plot device powa! he just doesn't have the feats to indicate he would whip up some random power from MB that would let him win this. least not imo. and if you think that, then you have to conclude that those same plot device options should translate to every thread he's in, and moreso--to any thread with a new god who has a MB. i don't like that conclusion at all, as i don't think it reflects at all on the character, or the MB in general. that's all i'm saying. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
abhi, it has more to do with the amount of times versatility is used. even in his most recent series which was only a few issues long, he used his power in some pretty crazy and creative ways. here, why don't you post scans of orion using his versatility in ways that would prove to be effective against graviton. ds tried showing some reverse polarity scan which...didn't make sense to me at all. if you're so hip on orion's versatility, show some on panel stuff that he's done that will translate to his beating graviton and i'll concede your point.

Well yes he does has some good versatility feats but those are rarely against any named opponents.

He went against Warrior One/Zero, Thing, Galactus etc and hardly did anything other than punch or blast.

So does Surfer. Remind me what he did to Warrior One who used gravity manipulation?

Originally posted by Supermutant
Typical way out of context scans from Abhy.

Right before going thru that black hole Surfer took a Galactus kill beam attack from the Elders of the Universe with the 6 infinity gems. This attacks designed to drain the life force of Galactus was also channeled through 6 planets. Surfer saved Nova in the process who was being torn apart from said attack. Nova at the direction of the Surfer caused the sun to go nova with created the black hole. A very impressive feat that Surfer was able to survive all of that happening in quick succession in his early less powerful appearances.

https://imgur.com/a/EuIBdVu

The ****? Surfer reflected the beams of the infinity gems by his silvery skin.

They were not hit by the Nova either, the sun was destroyed but the elders/surfer were far away to get affected by the supernova.

It's impressive that Surfer was about to get crushed by a black hole?

Elders sucked ass in that series, he was koed and needed Chaos/Order to traverse it in fear of getting killed.

Right because getting koed from colliding with a blackberry hole is such a big feat.

And amping off is even bigger.

Sure man.

Why don't you show us where Surfer receives an amp in Annihilation and what black holes he went into after that?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Well yes he does has some good versatility feats but those are rarely against any named opponents.

He went against Warrior One/Zero, Thing, Galactus etc and hardly did anything other than punch or blast.

So does Surfer. Remind me what he did to Warrior One who used gravity manipulation?

geez, dude. he demonstrated a higher level of versatility in only afew issues than orion has in practically his career. if you don't get that, there's nothing i can do for you. he has a lot of showings where he blasts. you want to tell me his skin is shiny and the colour of silver too, while you're at it?

as for warrior one, not even sure why you asked. you know what happens in the end and will likely have some excuse to hand-wave it away:

https://imgur.com/a/EL8gjGa

i told you, show me all these times orion has used MB as a plot device to win against enemies he can't beat down or astro-force blast. i mean surely he has used it to wipe out someone really powerful at some point besides that tp showing? and if you do find 1 or 2 showings, compare them with the overwhelmingly large percentage of time he NEVER uses it that way. should be interesting to see all these plot device wins he has.

Silver Surfer.

Originally posted by abhilegend
The ****? Surfer reflected the beams of the infinity gems by his silvery skin.

They were not hit by the Nova either, the sun was destroyed but the elders/surfer were far away to get affected by the supernova.

It's impressive that Surfer was about to get crushed by a black hole?

Elders sucked ass in that series, he was koed and needed Chaos/Order to traverse it in fear of getting killed.

Right because getting koed from colliding with a blackberry hole is such a big feat.

And amping off is even bigger.

Sure man.

Why don't you show us where Surfer receives an amp in Annihilation and what black holes he went into after that?

Just more failed lowballing attempts and fake news. Surfer took a Galactus life force siphoning kill beam powered by 6 infinity gems and channeled through 6 planets. The fact that he was able to deflect that kind of attack is nothing but impressive. And Surfer was much closer to the sun going nova then the Elders, and they must certainly felt its impact.

lol now you have move on to lowballing the Elders. Misrepresent, then lowball and deflect when caught, wash, rinse, repeat, in most of the threads you post in. But thanks for reminding everyone that Surfer can amp out of the energies from a black hole which is pretty substantial.

Anyway I'm pretty sure you have always seen these scans but since you want to fake ignorance here you go enjoy.

First let's start with Surfer creating a black hole just from a casual discharge of energy.

https://i.imgur.com/0QSeZbn.jpg

And here is the upgrade from Galactus where he states "grant you new power."

https://i.imgur.com/svUImhL.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
geez, dude. he demonstrated a higher level of versatility in only afew issues than orion has in practically his career. if you don't get that, there's nothing i can do for you. he has a lot of showings where he blasts. you want to tell me his skin is shiny and the colour of silver too, while you're at it?

Yes and how much of it was it was used against someone in a fight?

Right, punching him is such versatility.

You got me.

Why would he need to do that again besides the time he has done that?

What kind of logic is that?

Originally posted by Supermutant
Just more failed lowballing attempts and fake news. Surfer took a Galactus life force siphoning kill beam powered by 6 infinity gems and channeled through 6 planets. The fact that he was able to deflect that kind of attack is nothing but impressive. And Surfer was much closer to the sun going nova then the Elders, and they must certainly felt its impact.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-APJBXv4zAQk/VoTu81mMOvI/AAAAAAAAbKE/QvHEnSHr2U0/s1600-Ic42/RCO024.jpg

"His silvery skin is reflecting the attack".

Not deflect, reflect.

Neither the elders or Surfer were affected by the sun.

Eh, right. So his showings in black holes are invalidated because he is amped inside black holes?



Right, that's your criteria for going inside a black hole?



Which Surfer denied?

https://s15.postimg.cc/4zjz6hrg7/image.jpg https://s15.postimg.cc/pjot4zmmv/image.jpg

The recap of the issue stated that Galactus restored Surfer's power. Not upgraded him.

Abhilegend. In Slott's run Surfer also bound Euphoria's (a living planet) consciousness to one spot and molecularity nullified his/its sound air molecules. When he was caught in that time loop fighting against huge alien armadas he also warped space on a huge scale to transport the newhaven inhabitants.

Back in v1 -- the same series where he was continually stated to be depowered because of that Galactus downgrade -- he basically erased overlord from existence by going back in time and preventing him from being born. At the beginning of v3 -- where again, he was iirc slightly depowered even after Galactus barrier instance -- he matter manip. obliterator's weapons, and another one of his villains later on as well as nebula's armor toward the end of the series. He resorted to astral attacks when physical failed against a creature in, in thy name series. He was using matter manip. pretty frequent in the recent defenders runs. I actually have a few other things in mind but not too keen on mentioning them since i have to go back and check.

So he's more versatile than Orion, unless, that is, we're counting the times orion matter manip. his face to battle. That last part is sarcasm, btw.

Originally posted by operator616
Abhilegend. In Slott's run Surfer also bound Euphoria's (a living planet) consciousness to one spot and molecularity nullified his/its sound air molecules. When he was caught in that time loop fighting against huge alien armadas he also warped space on a huge scale to transport the newhaven inhabitants.

Right because when Orion fought a living planet (Mogo), he just ignored its most potent attack and incapacitated him.

When Surfer fought Ego (an actual living planet that matters), Surfer was koed by just falling on its surface.

So Surfer needs versatility Because he isn't going to win without it. Orion doesn't because he can just waltz through most.
Right, such an awesome versatility feat.
Because Obliterator handed surfer his ass on a platter.

Nebula? Don't make me laugh.

While Orion pretty much vaporized Mantis after Mantis proved too much to beat physically.

Right, you're just showcasing Surfer needs to be versatile because he just isn't powerful enough to beat most characters Orion would destroy straight up.

Good job.

hysterical

Ladies and gentleman, i present to you an entire post made up of pure abhi strawman. With a dip of butthurt to go along the way.

Jesus christ, abhilegend. You were the one who asked for versatility as opposed to energy/physical attacks. And yet when i show you exactly what you were asking you go on a rant how Orion's energy projection and physical stats are superior.

My god, you actually haven't escaped from bizarro world all the way back from the previous debate, have you?

Originally posted by operator616
hysterical

Ladies and gentleman, i present to you an entire post made up of pure abhi strawman. With a dip of butthurt to go along the way.

Jesus christ, abhilegend. You were the one who asked for versatility as opposed to energy/physical attacks. And yet when i show you exactly what you were asking you go on a rant how Orion's energy projection and physical stats are superior.

My god, you actually haven't escaped from bizarro world all the way back from the previous debate, have you?


I read it like that as well. He did a complete switch of the argument just to find a way to discredit Surfer.

Originally posted by operator616
hysterical

Ladies and gentleman, i present to you an entire post made up of pure abhi strawman. With a dip of butthurt to go along the way.

Jesus christ, abhilegend. You were the one who asked for versatility as opposed to energy/physical attacks. And yet when i show you exactly what you were asking you go on a rant how Orion's energy projection and physical stats are superior.

You did most of the work. Orion has plenty of versatility feats, it's just that those are not required like Surfer needs his versatility feats.



Right, have you?

One thing all this proves is Graviton is not trans.

Originally posted by abhilegend
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-APJBXv4zAQk/VoTu81mMOvI/AAAAAAAAbKE/QvHEnSHr2U0/s1600-Ic42/RCO024.jpg

"His silvery skin is reflecting the attack".

Not deflect, reflect.

Neither the elders or Surfer were affected by the sun.

Eh, right. So his showings in black holes are invalidated because he is amped inside black holes?



Right, that's your criteria for going inside a black hole?



Which Surfer denied?

https://s15.postimg.cc/4zjz6hrg7/image.jpg https://s15.postimg.cc/pjot4zmmv/image.jpg

The recap of the issue stated that Galactus restored Surfer's power. Not upgraded him.

lol what is your argument? That Surfer is currently at the same power he was in his early appearances when he could barely fly without his board. Its clear that Surfer has increased in power since then like many other characters from their beginnings.

It's also clear that Surfer didn't turn down the upgrade, he denied Galactus taking away his remorse which he directly stated. And even Ravenous who had previously considered himself Surfer's equal in power, mentions repeatedly that Galactus changed Surfer for the better. And asking him what did Galactus do to him and how, what have the Surfer become. Also its clear in the story that Galactus upgraded him to help fight against those two enemies of Galactus who were close to the big G in power, Aegis and Tenebrus

https://imgur.com/a/haosHpi

So again what point are you trying to make besides lowballing?

Even in his early appearances Surfer was able to travel through exploding supernovas.

http://i.imgur.com/JAjQw9q.png

http://i.imgur.com/lZ0n50N.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/KUACx2C.jpg

And here he makes an anti-gravity shield against a black hole.

http://i.imgur.com/Fxjieia.jpg

Originally posted by Supermutant
lol what is your argument? That Surfer is currently at the same power he was in his early appearances when he could barely fly without his board. Its clear that Surfer has increased in power since then like many other characters from their beginnings.

Yet still has trouble with Thing and looks peer to Thor at best.

Relative power level wise Surfer hasn't grown anywhere.

Ravenous looked about equal to Surfer even after "the upgrade" until Surfer killed his currs.

How is it clear? Surfer almost died in four hits from Tenebrous and Aegis.

What lowballing?

Nowhere did he travel through an exploding supernova. In the first scene the exploding gasses caught up with him, in second he blatantly escaped the supernova and in third he was just surfing the blast and wasn't hit by it.

That's his sole good showing against a black hole. Most of the time he is helpless against a black hole.

Surfer beats classic Graviton, who was basically a gravity-based equivalent of Magneto, and on his level.

Surfer can't match Graviton who suspended all of Earth's heroes at the same time.

No need to go on further Abhy, so just a simple question. Do you believe current Surfer is at the same level of power from his early appearances as shown by your scans? Yes or no will suffice.

Originally posted by Supermutant
No need to go on further Abhy, so just a simple question. Do you believe current Surfer is at the same level of power from his early appearances as shown by your scans? Yes or no will suffice.
He is on the same level in hierarchy of marvel top tiers as before.

Silver Surfer has advanced so far that he has say in the soul.
I don't remember what issue it was that he achieved such a feat but I remember reading it quite some time ago.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He is on the same level in hierarchy of marvel top tiers as before.

not the question I asked but whatever

ermm