Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

If so, prove your case with scans etc

If not, why

absolutely. why? because he has, by far, the best strength feats in dc. not really close or debatable imo. lip service paid to jonn doesn't mean anything when the feats are so dramatically one-sided. /shrug

I'm waiting for the beings who are stronger than Superman in the league.

OP I'm sure you're devastated but it certainly isn't J'onn, who got his ass whooped by Doomsday multiple times and treated like a non-issue in the OWAW saga.

Comicvine wept at that. How could you do that, you monster?

Honestly J'onn is trash.

He is ugly and has a terrible costume and a ghey superhero name. Martian Manhunter. LOL.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm waiting for the beings who are stronger than Superman in the league.

Diana beating a bloodlusted superman mind controlled by maxwell is just one example.

What's yours?

combat showings=/=strength feats. gamora has beaten the thing and rage in the past and she is no where near as strong as they are. think of how many times batman or karate kid have done even far more impressive things in combat. this is strength. not overall power or who would win in a fight i thought. /shrug

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
Diana beating a bloodlusted superman mind controlled by maxwell is just one example.

What's yours?

Superman was mind-controlled at the time. If you want to argue she beat him, she didn't do it with strength.

==

Honestly, outside of Batson, I think Superman is a fair bracket above anyone in the League, even under normal, average circumstances.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Superman was mind-controlled at the time. If you want to argue she beat him, she didn't do it with strength.

==

Honestly, outside of Batson, I think Superman is a fair bracket above anyone in the League, even under normal, average circumstances.

Yes, Superman essentially thought Diana was Doomsday so he had no reason to hold back.

He is above Billy too.

I remember CM Jr, who is close to Billy in power, had a massive amp and Superman was still well above him.

Supes has ko'd Diana with heat vision on accident, while not even directly aiming at her.

Don't look too hard at that Maxwell Lord incident.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Supes has ko'd Diana with heat vision on accident, while not even directly aiming at her.

Don't look too hard at that Maxwell Lord incident.

?

Let me know when the featfest starts, most members in the league arguably have some impressive strength feats

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
Yes, Superman essentially thought Diana was Doomsday so he had no reason to hold back.

Even if you want to use Sacrifice (which is already murky due to the mind control) at no point during the fight they have does Diana come across as being stronger than Superman.

We're trying to prove strength here, aren't we?

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
Let me know when the featfest starts, most members in the league arguably have some impressive strength feats

Like?

Batman, obv.

Lol at Pr though. Aquaman isn't included there.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Honestly J'onn is trash.

He is ugly and has a terrible costume and a ghey superhero name. Martian Manhunter. LOL.

Agreed. But his feats... or, more specifically, their mediocrity... that's the worst thing about him.

Google "Martian Manjobber". Other sites call him that too, not just KMC.

Guys, try to keep the goading to a minimum, thanks.

Physically strongest? Yes. Best durability? Yes. Best stamina? Yes. Best physical stats? Yes. Most versatile? NO!

DC criminally jobs Martian Manhunter out to make the other League members (aside from Superman) look good. In fact, Jon is a one man Justice League. CL85-100 physical stats? Check. Powerful telepath? Check. Shapeshifting? Check. Density manipulation power? Check. Energy discharge powers (Martian Vision)? Check.

The most powerful League member is Superman. Jon is a distant second but no one else comes close.

J'onn can't be a distant second when Hal Jordan exists.

I'd put Jon Stewart above J'onn as well, and the Justice League cartoon agreed, putting Stewart as the number 2 on the rung.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Even if you want to use Sacrifice (which is already murky due to the mind control) at no point during the fight they have does Diana come across as being stronger than Superman.

We're trying to prove strength here, aren't we?



Like? When has supes subconsciously did something without an mind

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
When has supes subconsciously did something without an mind

I'm not sure I understand your question.

I was talking about how, on this forum, a character that's been mind-controlled or hypnotised? Anything they do in that state cannot be considered them operating as well as they would were they in their right mind. They aren't themselves, etc.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm not sure I understand your question.

I was talking about how, on this forum, a character that's been mind-controlled or hypnotised? Anything they do in that state cannot be considered them operating as well as they would were they in their right mind. They aren't themselves, etc.

How would mind control decrease Superman's strength? I mean he thought Diana was Doomsday, and literally blitzed her FTL distance etc

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
How would mind control decrease Superman's strength? I mean he thought Diana was Doomsday, and literally blitzed her FTL distance etc

It doesn't diminish his strength, but it does diminish his use of it effectively. Superman is out of his mind with grief and rage (which the writer also said), so he isn't going to use his abilities properly.

But let's say I'm wrong; what in Sacrifice makes you think she's stronger than he is?

Originally posted by -Pr-
It doesn't diminish his strength, but it does diminish his use of it effectively. Superman is out of his mind with grief and rage (which the writer also said), so he isn't going to use his abilities properly.

But let's say I'm wrong; what in Sacrifice makes you think she's stronger than he is?

Why would Superman hold back his strength against someone who he thinks is DD? and Diana bloodied, and landed more hits imo

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
Why would Superman hold back his strength against someone who he thinks is DD? and Diana bloodied, and landed more hits imo

I don't recall saying he was holding it back. Feel free to correct me.

I'm asking what about that fight scene, or any fight scene she has with him, shows evidence of her being stronger.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't recall saying he was holding it back. Feel free to correct me.

I'm asking what about that fight scene, or any fight scene she has with him, shows evidence of her being stronger.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11125/111258855/5192816-8413632426-tumbl.jpg


Also, If Superman truly is the strongest how come at full power he only gave Bruce a damage lung and bones cracked?

https://s22.postimg.cc/4it4guve5/image.jpg


https://s22.postimg.cc/oq6k99vh9/image.jpg


Now, yes Batman stated desaad treatment "dulled" Superman but it was reference to superman getting slower hence why Bruce was able to dodge the first couple of punches which he then stated he soon wouldn't be able to dodge for longer then he got punched


https://s22.postimg.cc/4wugggfhp/image.jpg


^Desaad also gave the instructions for superman to kill batman meaning all those punches landed were intended to kill


Superman couldn't have held back because his mind was removed from his body and his brain wasn't working
( stated he had no mind his brain wasn't even functioning synapses weren't working):

https://s22.postimg.cc/hpikg4jb1/image.jpg


I would think someone like Diana, J'onn or other top tiers in the League would do more than that to a simple peak human like Bats

if its just strength he is the strongest. when it comes to overall power rankings, manjobber&stewart arent more than an inch far away(billy can be considered too).

N52 WW, with the GoW amp, couldn't even KO Batman without his armour and injured, even with a cheap shot.

I KNEW BATMAN WOULD BE TOP

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11125/111258855/5192816-8413632426-tumbl.jpg


Also, If Superman truly is the strongest how come at full power he only gave Bruce a damage lung and bones cracked?

https://s22.postimg.cc/4it4guve5/image.jpg


https://s22.postimg.cc/oq6k99vh9/image.jpg


Now, yes Batman stated desaad treatment "dulled" Superman but it was reference to superman getting slower hence why Bruce was able to dodge the first couple of punches which he then stated he soon wouldn't be able to dodge for longer then he got punched


https://s22.postimg.cc/4wugggfhp/image.jpg


^Desaad also gave the instructions for superman to kill batman meaning all those punches landed were intended to kill


Superman couldn't have held back because his mind was removed from his body and his brain wasn't working
( stated he had no mind his brain wasn't even functioning synapses weren't working):

https://s22.postimg.cc/hpikg4jb1/image.jpg


I would think someone like Diana, J'onn or other top tiers in the League would do more than that to a simple peak human like Bats

What you're talking about is PIS. He can't kill Batman because the plot demands he doesn't.

And besides, why are THOSE feats your barometer, and not ones like him pushing Warworld, or benching Earth for days, or pulling Darkseid out of the source wall?

Originally posted by -Pr-
What you're talking about is PIS. He can't kill Batman because the plot demands he doesn't.

And besides, why are THOSE feats your barometer, and not ones like him pushing Warworld, or benching Earth for days, or pulling Darkseid out of the source wall?

lifting strength equals to striking now?

Why would pulling Darkseid out of the source wall be top tier?

PIS would be an excuse, but it's happened again and again. Do you think Darkseid would struggle to KO Batman?

Not too long ago Future Aquaman beat Bats

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11125/111258855/5192816-8413632426-tumbl.jpg


Also, If Superman truly is the strongest how come at full power he only gave Bruce a damage lung and bones cracked?

https://s22.postimg.cc/4it4guve5/image.jpg


https://s22.postimg.cc/oq6k99vh9/image.jpg


Now, yes Batman stated desaad treatment "dulled" Superman but it was reference to superman getting slower hence why Bruce was able to dodge the first couple of punches which he then stated he soon wouldn't be able to dodge for longer then he got punched


https://s22.postimg.cc/4wugggfhp/image.jpg


^Desaad also gave the instructions for superman to kill batman meaning all those punches landed were intended to kill


Superman couldn't have held back because his mind was removed from his body and his brain wasn't working
( stated he had no mind his brain wasn't even functioning synapses weren't working):

https://s22.postimg.cc/hpikg4jb1/image.jpg


I would think someone like Diana, J'onn or other top tiers in the League would do more than that to a simple peak human like Bats
This is perhaps the dumbest ******** reasoning i've seen on this forum for some time


Superman could have heat visioned Batman or decapitate him with a slap.

Everything you mentioned here is PIS. The same way Zoom recently blitz'ed Batman but someone batman survived.

All you managed to prove in these scans is that you are lowballing, nit picking, and being biased

Even though a LOT of his fts are questionable, he is the strongest leaguer.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11125/111258855/5192816-8413632426-tumbl.jpg


Also, If Superman truly is the strongest how come at full power he only gave Bruce a damage lung and bones cracked?

https://s22.postimg.cc/4it4guve5/image.jpg


https://s22.postimg.cc/oq6k99vh9/image.jpg


Now, yes Batman stated desaad treatment "dulled" Superman but it was reference to superman getting slower hence why Bruce was able to dodge the first couple of punches which he then stated he soon wouldn't be able to dodge for longer then he got punched


https://s22.postimg.cc/4wugggfhp/image.jpg


^Desaad also gave the instructions for superman to kill batman meaning all those punches landed were intended to kill


Superman couldn't have held back because his mind was removed from his body and his brain wasn't working
( stated he had no mind his brain wasn't even functioning synapses weren't working):

https://s22.postimg.cc/hpikg4jb1/image.jpg


I would think someone like Diana, J'onn or other top tiers in the League would do more than that to a simple peak human like Bats

This isn't the first time this happened.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
Diana beating a bloodlusted superman mind controlled by maxwell is just one example.

What's yours?

She did it with strength? He broke her arm like a twig and oneshotted her across sun to earth.

Originally posted by carver9
This isn't the first time this happened.

oh, definately not. only way you can defend this instance is if supes shown to act subconsciously with a mind

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
oh, definately not. only way you can defend this instance is if supes shown to act subconsciously with a mind
Or Batman has plot armor which protects him.

Batman has straight up embarrassed Wonder Woman in h2h while she was amped by a demon BTW.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Or Batman has plot armor which protects him.

Batman has straight up embarrassed Wonder Woman in h2h while she was amped by a demon BTW. Lets not forget he straight up took hits from Darkseid, Superman, Zooms..etc without getting a hole in his body.


It's called PIS...
Unless you think Superman is Captain America level of strength lol

riiight. "PLOT armor" totally

I guess PLOT only applies when superman hasn't been able to kill Bats going all out for the 1000th consecutive time

where's it shown that Superman is the strongest member anyways?

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
oh, definately not. only way you can defend this instance is if supes shown to act subconsciously with a mind

Here you go...

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-cc74197d5fcbe4637db0c07ba0e36c16-c
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d07686b92cc1379c7361a799895931ba-c
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a6fe65d3d7619aa7f981c0ec430c9a17-c
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7cad0fe78758a3aa6217b2981c3d3ef0-c
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-966dfd204f75e8da28cf856d8f0af5f7-c

Originally posted by Baziemarc123


I would think someone like Diana, J'onn or other top tiers in the League would do more than that to a simple peak human like Bats

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Reposting now we have lost the stretch,

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/111336/4643740-6917388091-5c64b.jpg

Yeah, but she's mind controlled, so we should discount that!

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/111336/4643743-0014285371-5c64b.jpg

Remember, even with her bracelets on, she was stronger and faster:

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/god-of-war-wonder-woman-vs-the-cheetah-new-52-6.png

So a bloodlusted, out for the kill, WW with GoW upgrade, was unable to kill or even KO an injured, sick Batman, without his Batsuit, even with a suckerpunch.

Beastly showing. DC showing my boy Bats much love.

unless there's a feat from Superman I'm unaware of, Flashs IMP still takes the highest striking power

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
riiight. "PLOT armor" totally

I guess PLOT only applies when superman hasn't been able to kill Bats going all out for the 1000th consecutive time

where's it shown that Superman is the strongest member anyways?

Which league member has killed Batman then?

Are you arguing Batman is class 100 then?

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
unless there's a feat from Superman I'm unaware of, Flashs IMP still takes the highest striking power

What about Superman's IMP?

Originally posted by abhilegend
What about Superman's IMP?

That was calced to be 700x planetary

Flashs IMP was calced more

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
unless there's a feat from Superman I'm unaware of, Flashs IMP still takes the highest striking power

Zoom was unable to KO Batman either.

And HE was toying with Wally effortlessly

Using Batman as a gauge never works out for anyone except Batman.

And me

Originally posted by abhilegend
Which league member has killed Batman then?

Are you arguing Batman is class 100 then?

Bruce is far from class 100, but it's the fact that Supes has consistently failed to one-shot beings that's not even in the 30 tons for example, Bruce was one.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
That was calced to be 700x planetary

Flashs IMP was calced more

Because it failed to kill Zoom? And Flash said it hit like a white dwarf star?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Because it failed to kill Zoom? And Flash said it hit like a white dwarf star?

the instance with zoom was an error, the IMP was said to hit at lightspeed in that one, which everybody knows it goes under lightspeed

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
Bruce is far from class 100, but it's the fact that Supes has consistently failed to one-shot beings that's not even in the 30 tons for example, Bruce was one.

Which other less than class 30 characters has he failed to oneshot?

Consistently that is.

And which league member has consistently oneshotted Batman?

To determine who's actually stronger, you'd need to show Superman doing stuff the JL couldn't, and that rarely happens

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
the instance with zoom was an error, the IMP was said to hit at lightspeed in that one, which everybody knows it goes under lightspeed
So White Martian where Martian didn't even go above atmosphere?

Superman has casually punched Bizarro to the moon. There you go.

Based on their respective showings vs. Batman, Superman is the strongest League member for sure.

Dark moon is about to be posted. warning.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
To determine who's actually stronger, you'd need to show Superman doing stuff the JL couldn't, and that rarely happens

Right, how about this.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman survives magical attacks from disciple which not even diana and zauriel could survive

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/54.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/55.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/56.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/57.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/58.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/59.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/60.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
Dark moon is about to be posted. warning.

Lol. As if.

Anyway, for Bazzie Mark:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Here is Batman against Kid Amazo (who had Superman's strength), Superman (whilst mind-controlled to kill), Mongul, Shaggy Man, Zook (who had Martian Manhunter's strength, also out to kill) and Frankenstein (ok, not out to kill - but he was trading blows fairly evenly with Superman )

Kid Amazo:
https://s5.postimg.cc/ye747a3av/batvskidamazo1.jpg
https://s5.postimg.cc/ispsnbz2f/batvskidamazo2.jpg

Superman:
https://s5.postimg.cc/z3pwjnypj/batarmor-superattack1.jpg

Mongul (I'm OK, lol):
https://s5.postimg.cc/ispsnd1nb/infinitecrisis1-mongulvsdctrinity2.jpg
https://s5.postimg.cc/c29bdx6rr/infinitecrisis1-mongulvsdctrinity3.jpg

Shaggy Man (a solid slug to the head!):
https://s5.postimg.cc/uul6hhg0n/batarmor-thegeneral1.jpg

Zook:
https://s5.postimg.cc/6quet8fk7/supermanbatman28-zookjonn2.jpg
https://s5.postimg.cc/6quet87uf/supermanbatman28-zookjonn3.jpg

Franky:
https://s5.postimg.cc/i370azdyf/batmanamprobin19-batmanvsfrankenstein1.jpg

Bonus scan: Batman punching Shazam in the head:
https://s5.postimg.cc/hqfm4ut4n/robinrisesomega-batmanpunchshazam1.jpg
https://s5.postimg.cc/rnqmxx8g7/robinrisesomega-batmanpunchshazam2.jpg

One thing to recall, however: in all these scans (apart from the Zoom scans), Batman doesn't have Dionysium in his body.

Scans isnt working.

Originally posted by carver9
Scans isnt working.

Fixed

Reposted:

Originally posted by carver9
Dark moon is about to be posted. warning.

Lol. As if.

Anyway, for Bazzie Mark:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Here is Batman against Kid Amazo (who had Superman's strength), Superman (whilst mind-controlled to kill), Mongul, Shaggy Man, Zook (who had Martian Manhunter's strength, also out to kill) and Frankenstein (ok, not out to kill - but he was trading blows fairly evenly with Superman )

Kid Amazo:
https://s5.postimg.cc/ye747a3av/batvskidamazo1.jpg
https://s5.postimg.cc/ispsnbz2f/batvskidamazo2.jpg

Superman:
https://s5.postimg.cc/z3pwjnypj/batarmor-superattack1.jpg

Mongul (I'm OK, lol):
https://s5.postimg.cc/ispsnd1nb/infinitecrisis1-mongulvsdctrinity2.jpg
https://s5.postimg.cc/c29bdx6rr/infinitecrisis1-mongulvsdctrinity3.jpg

Shaggy Man (a solid slug to the head!):
https://s5.postimg.cc/uul6hhg0n/batarmor-thegeneral1.jpg

Zook:
https://s5.postimg.cc/6quet8fk7/supermanbatman28-zookjonn2.jpg
https://s5.postimg.cc/6quet87uf/supermanbatman28-zookjonn3.jpg

Franky:
https://s5.postimg.cc/i370azdyf/batmanamprobin19-batmanvsfrankenstein1.jpg

Bonus scan: Batman punching Shazam in the head:
https://s5.postimg.cc/hqfm4ut4n/robinrisesomega-batmanpunchshazam1.jpg
https://s5.postimg.cc/rnqmxx8g7/robinrisesomega-batmanpunchshazam2.jpg

One thing to recall, however: in all these scans (apart from the Zoom scans), Batman doesn't have Dionysium in his body.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So White Martian where Martian didn't even go above atmosphere?

Superman has casually punched Bizarro to the moon. There you go.

Because speed force ignores physics and protects barry from the effects of the enviroment? that's flash 101

"Scans isnt"

14+ years spent on the message board.

Always clean and sober.

Native English speaker, too.

Seriously, Derrick, you're killing me.

http://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/bleeding-eyes-gif-1.gif

Originally posted by abhilegend
Right, how about this.

This is durability, not strength.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
This is durability, not strength.

His legs still have to push...

Superman
Shazam
Diana
MM

IMO in strength.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
unless there's a feat from Superman I'm unaware of, Flashs IMP still takes the highest striking power Ehh...

Anyway, interesting to note in these current times is that Namor survived a lightspeed rod while the physics were in play. Knocked out sure, but technically it would have had infinite mass.

Back to Flash, Flash's best striking feat is destroying AM's armor while he would have been at less than full power. And then a bunch of feats that come nowhere close to it. The narration might put his punches on Superman's level but the actual showings themselves don't.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
Because speed force ignores physics and protects barry from the effects of the enviroment? that's flash 101

It protected the white Martian?

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
lifting strength equals to striking now?

Why would pulling Darkseid out of the source wall be top tier?

You said strongest. Not best striker. So you want just striking feats, then?

Did you actually have an open mind making this, or was this just some opportunity to lowball for you? I'm genuinely curious why you'd pick low feats instead of high ones, when high feats is what people should be comparing.

Darkseid is.

Scans isnt.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
This is durability, not strength.

He advanced in a magical attack which threw all of JLA away by durability?

OK, how about this.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Overpowers Composite Superman trying to restrain him who had the powers of the whole justice league.

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/17087578_SupermanBatmanann03020.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/17087582_SupermanBatmanann03034.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/17087587_SupermanBatmanann03035.jpg

I'm still mystified about this lifting =/= striking thing.

OK, sure, RL physics, a strong powerlifter/bodybuilder isn't exactly going to be the best puncher.

But hell, it's going to be pretty damn high. Technique only gets you so far. A weak, highly trained granny isn't going to punch harder than Hafthor Bjornsson. He's still going to pack a serious punch.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He advanced in a magical attack which threw all of JLA away by durability?

yes, which is durability. not that I'd be surprised he'd be more resistant to magic than the Justice League considering they rarely ever deal with it

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
yes, which is durability. not that I'd be surprised he'd be more resistant to magic than the Justice League considering they rarely ever deal with it

Lol.

So how did he move forwards? With a wish? Or with his leg muscles?

Originally posted by -Pr-
You said strongest. Not best striker. So you want just striking feats, then?

Did you actually have an open mind making this, or was this just some opportunity to lowball for you? I'm genuinely curious why you'd pick low feats instead of high ones, when high feats is what people should be comparing.

sure, what high feats?

warworld IIRC was the size of a small planet, not fairly impressive.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123

Also, If Superman truly is the strongest how come at full power he only gave Bruce a damage lung and bones cracked?

What have the other guys done? Mongul didn't harm him. WW with GoW amp, without his Batsuit, didn't do much to him - even when trying her best to kill him.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
sure, what high feats?

warworld IIRC was the size of a small planet, not fairly impressive.

Lol you forgot it had engines, right?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I'm still mystified about this lifting =/= striking thing.

OK, sure, RL physics, a strong powerlifter/bodybuilder isn't exactly going to be the best puncher.

But hell, it's going to be pretty damn high. Technique only gets you so far. A weak, highly trained granny isn't going to punch harder than Hafthor Bjornsson. He's still going to pack a serious punch.

Comics, bro.

Look at Steve Rogers or Bruce Wayne... take their top 10 striking feats and top 10 lifting feats...

They hurt Class 100 beings pretty damn often, but you won't see either of them lifting a damn car.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
yes, which is durability. not that I'd be surprised he'd be more resistant to magic than the Justice League considering they rarely ever deal with it

Wut? Superman who is specifically vulnerable to magic is somehow more resistant than magical beings like Wonder Woman?

And how is it durability? He moved in a field that threw everyone away..

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I'm still mystified about this lifting =/= striking thing.

OK, sure, RL physics, a strong powerlifter/bodybuilder isn't exactly going to be the best puncher.

But hell, it's going to be pretty damn high. Technique only gets you so far. A weak, highly trained granny isn't going to punch harder than Hafthor Bjornsson. He's still going to pack a serious punch. In his case it's because he weighs over 300 pounds and doesn't lack mobility. He probably hits like a ***** for his size.

We've seen Eddie Hall who is stronger than Thor in every way in boxing matches and outside of push punches, he doesn't seem to have terrific power.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Comics, bro.

Look at Steve Rogers or Bruce Wayne... take their top 10 striking feats and top 10 lifting feats...

They hurt Class 100 beings pretty damn often, but you won't see either of them lifting a damn car.
They can increase their striking power via skills. Now somehow Superman has a skill that decreases his strength whenever he hits someone.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What have the other guys done? Mongul didn't harm him. WW with GoW amp, without his Batsuit, didn't do much to him - even when trying her best to kill him.



Lol you forgot it had engines, right?

and?

Originally posted by abhilegend
He advanced in a magical attack which threw all of JLA away by durability?

OK, how about this.

He overpowered Eloganated powers.

Next.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
In his case it's because he weighs over 300 pounds and doesn't lack mobility. He probably hits like a ***** for his size.

We've seen Eddie Hall who is stronger than Thor in every way in boxing matches and outside of push punches, he doesn't seem to have terrific power.

You are comparing humans to humans. Where technique is still enough to overcome strength advantages because the strength advantages aren't big enough.

A bear with a casual swipe and using barely any leverage hits harder than any boxer. And not a huge bear either, even a 300 lb one.

Originally posted by abhilegend
They can increase their striking power via skills.

Yes, via skills and the right equipment.

Even without weapons of any kind or strength-boosting suits, Cap and Bats both have pretty tough gloves... in Bruce's case, it was specifically stated on panel they prevented his hand bones from getting shattered when striking Superman.

Sure, one could argue it's not how kevlar is supposed to work and all, but - again - we're talking about comics here.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Now somehow Superman has a skill that decreases his strength whenever he hits someone.

As stupid as it is, most bricks and herald characters suffer from that... "condition".

Originally posted by CosmicComet
You are comparing humans to humans. Where technique is still enough to overcome strength advantages because the strength advantages aren't big enough.

A bear with a casual swipe and using barely any leverage hits harder than any boxer. And not a huge bear either, even a 300 lb one. Darksaint is actually. I'm well aware comics don't follow the rules of real life, but he tried to relate it to Thor. Someone who only hits hard maybe because of his weight.

Also do you think it's the bears pure strength alone that allows it to strike that hard, or do you think it the case that the bears much like a human boxer has best learned how to throw a strike? Being able to snap that much weight in an arm at high speeds along with an amazing core would make sense of how hard they can hit. Plus the size of the striking area as well.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He advanced in a magical attack which threw all of JLA away by durability?

OK, how about this.

the composite feat was retconned by mxy

with a snap of his fingers... it never happened

https://s22.postimg.cc/reee2qn8d/image.jpg

Holy shit this got hige QUICK! Fun to read, though.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Yes, via skills and the right equipment.

Even without weapons of any kind or strength-boosting suits, Cap and Bats both have pretty tough gloves... in Bruce's case, it was specifically stated on panel they prevented his hand bones from getting shattered when striking Superman.

Sure, one could argue it's not how kevlar is supposed to work and all, but - again - we're talking about comics here.



As stupid as it is, most bricks and herald characters suffer from that... "condition".

"it was specifically stated on panel they prevented his hand bones from getting shattered when striking Superman.
"

where?

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
"it was specifically stated on panel they prevented his hand bones from getting shattered when striking Superman.
"

where?

Hush arc.

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/batman-vs-superman-hush-3.jpg

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
sure, what high feats?

warworld IIRC was the size of a small planet, not fairly impressive.

Maybe not to you, but now the onus is on you to show J'onn or Diana or other Leaguers doing something more impressive.

And don't forget, we do account for things like PIS in battles.

Originally posted by One Big Mob

Also do you think it's the bears pure strength alone that allows it to strike that hard, or do you think it the case that the bears much like a human boxer has best learned how to throw a strike? Being able to snap that much weight in an arm at high speeds along with an amazing core would make sense of how hard they can hit. Plus the size of the striking area as well.

Being able to snap that much weight in arm at high speeds is precisely because it has the musculature to do so.

Bears don't have to learn to throw. They just throw. So even a 300 lb black bear can damage a car's wind shield with a single strike without having to wind up and use its full weight.

Technique has limits, strength doesn't.

Bazie is a troll learning his art... He has a long way to go to join the guild. I am watching him though.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
He overpowered Eloganated powers.

Next.

Did composite Superman somehow lost his strength?

Proof of that?

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
the composite feat was retconned by mxy

with a snap of his fingers... it never happened

https://s22.postimg.cc/reee2qn8d/image.jpg

Wrong arc kid. Try again.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Being able to snap that much weight in arm at high speeds is precisely because it has the musculature to do so.

Bears don't have to learn to throw. They just throw. So even a 300 lb black bear can damage a car's wind shield with a single strike without having to wind up and use its full weight.

Technique has limits, strength doesn't. The muscle required to do so is not in anyway comparable with Darksaint's example though. Which is my point.

A bear would be able to hit the same impact force regardless of whether it could deadlift, log press, squat, or yoke walk vastly more or less than what it currently could do. Maybe the yoke walk would help actually.

Also a bear arm weighs a ****ton as well. So any sort of momentum it makes accounts for impact force. If a human had a bear arm and paw it would also be ****ing shit completely up with little movements.

A bear throws so hard not because it can lift the most things, but because it can move its body perfectly. The muscles required for that are not consistent with using Eddie Halls and Thors, people who can only punch probably hard because of their weight.

Something like bench pressing and deadlifting has no huge real world carry over to punching power. Which is what the lifting feats are supposed to entail. But comics don't work like that. You could make a case that Superman's muscles all get stronger when he lifts and he learns to move better and recruit more core/snap as he gets stronger, but it's best just to leave out real world logic imo.

not blinded at all, purposeful. lol and he sustains engagements somehow, as though arguing against him will in someway change his stance. i am disappoint in my fellow kmc'ers.

Originally posted by leonidas
not blinded at all, purposeful. lol and he sustains engagements somehow, as though arguing against him will in someway change his stance. i am disappoint in my fellow kmc'ers. I can't believe people still engage him, tbh.

He is obviously trolling and baiting.

I lol'd at Pr's post:
Originally posted by -Pr-
Guys, try to keep the goading to a minimum, thanks.

When that's what this thread literally is..

Me and CC are having a legit conversation... in a club known for fighting.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
He overpowered Eloganated powers.

Next.


Not sure what "Eloganated" powers are, but, just seeing this "E" word reminded me of Plastic Man and what is arguably his greatest aristeia.

Eel O'Brien versus J'onn J'onnz
aka Fernus ... the Burning

Doubtless there were other powers displayed EARLIER that COULD have been used had his opponent chosen to do so, but, if the following ISN'T an instance of Superman's physical strength being overcome and Superman simply walked over, I'd like to know what it is ...

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38714519_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38714520_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38714521_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38714522_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38714523_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38714524_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38714525_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38714526_image.jpg

Source: JLA Trial by Fire (JLA #s 85-89)
Circa: 2003

According Adventures of Superman #642, most likely.

Not sure what "Eloganated" powers are, but, just seeing this "E" word reminded me of Plastic Man and what is arguably his greatest aristeia.

Eel O'Brien versus J'onn J'onnz
aka Fernus ... the Burning

Doubtless there were other powers displayed EARLIER that COULD have been used had his opponent chosen to do so, but, if the following ISN'T an instance of Superman's physical strength being overcome and Superman simply walked over, I'd like to know what it is ...

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38714519_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38714520_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38714521_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38714522_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38714523_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38714524_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38714525_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38714526_image.jpg

Source: JLA Trial by Fire (JLA #s 85-89)
Circa: 2003

"Well he's doing it too!" Is not a defence.

I asked everyone. Some stopped. Some didn't.

Dole out another round of Irish justice imo. If they can't handle their liquor, kick em out of the pub.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
If so, prove your case with scans etc

If not, why

Clarification:

Lifting strength? Or overall power level?

Which League? There have been many.

Can we bring in Justice League Task Force, Xtreme, Dark?

If only the JLA, that would discount most of the 1990's, when they rebranded themselves "Justice League International/Europe".

Originally posted by -Pr-
"Well he's doing it too!" Is not a defence.

I asked everyone. Some stopped. Some didn't. He is the actual starter of the thread...

When somebody starts a bait thread, and follows it up with condescending "If so, prove your case", don't be surprised that people respond snarkily.

Oh well..
Originally posted by Baziemarc123
Diana beating a bloodlusted superman mind controlled by maxwell is just one example.

What's yours? What does a magical tiara making a hallucinating Superman bleed , have to do with strength? I could put a knife in your anus if you thought it was your dad beating you with a belt, does that make me stronger than you?

Superman broke her wrist by squeezing and one-shot KO her across the solar system.

Guess which one is more relevant to strength?

Originally posted by zopzop
Physically strongest? Yes. Best durability? Yes. Best stamina? Yes. Best physical stats? Yes. Most versatile? NO!

DC criminally jobs Martian Manhunter out to make the other League members (aside from Superman) look good. In fact, Jon is a one man Justice League. CL85-100 physical stats? Check. Powerful telepath? Check. Shapeshifting? Check. Density manipulation power? Check. Energy discharge powers (Martian Vision)? Check.

The most powerful League member is Superman. Jon is a distant second but no one else comes close.

J'onn is the type of board game character that somebody created who had 10 points to buy stats, so they spread them out over all abilities.

Superman is the guy who chose 4 for strength, 3 for speed and 3 for durability.

Philo's right.

About pretty much everything, imo.

Anyways, I'm gonna stick with "no" until the Op weighs in on my questions. Power level wise, Dr. Fate, Manitou Raven, and Kyle Raynor could be argued as much stronger, power level wise.

You can make lots of cases over the course of the various Leagues and offshoots over the years..

Originally posted by cdtm
Clarification:

Lifting strength? Or overall power level?

Which League? There have been many.

Can we bring in Justice League Task Force, Xtreme, Dark?

If only the JLA, that would discount most of the 1990's, when they rebranded themselves "Justice League International/Europe".

Morrison. Striking/power level wise

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Me and CC are having a legit conversation... in a club known for fighting.

In order to hit as hard as even Thing, Namor etc. do, your fists would have to be moving at hypersonic speeds, every time.

That's why kinetic energy = m * v^2 / 2. There's only so much mass you can have. Be it a chippendale like Namor or a hardass like Thing.

Comics, obviously, couldn't give a shit.

Is that you were talking about? If not, I go back to:

lifting strength doesn't equate to striking. that's common sense, i don't get why you think it's somehow different in comics.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
lifting strength doesn't equate to striking. that's common sense, i don't get why you think it's somehow different in comics. That's what somebody who doesn't read comics would say. Or who doesn't understand physics, to see how comics ignore the 'how punches work' entirely. Probably both.

Lifting/striking are, generally, interchangeable in comics, unless you're a speedster like Flash, in which case writers masturbate to relativity.

I can bench 300lbs. But I can't destroy those plates with a punch

When analyzing force, it's mass times acceleration. And the mass that's being considered is the one in your fists, including energy drawn from your feet placed on the ground

Lifting is a pushing motion
Punching is a snapping motion

They're distinctive

Not to mention, common sense says a steam shovel "outpunch's" the best pro boxer on Earth.

Now take that logic and apply it to someone who can kick someone up in the air. While both are falling downward, and neither can fly.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
I can bench 300lbs. But I can't destroy those plates with a punch

When analyzing force, it's mass times acceleration. And the mass that's being considered is the one in your fists, including energy drawn from your feet placed on the ground

Lifting is a pushing motion
Punching is a snapping motion

They're distinctive Why are you telling me how it is in the real world, when I explicitly told you in comics it's different, and characters who don't move their fists at hypersonic speeds can punch other people across continents, just because they are physically strong and can lift a lot?

your point is?

Physics are ignored in visual media across the board, be it cinema, television, or comics.

How many times has Jackie Chan toppled someone with an attack that had no form at all behind it. Or Xena?

It wasn't until Ultimate Fighting Championship that it became mainstream knowledge that punching upward at a guy who has you pinned isn't going to do squat, because physics.

Seems like people use real world and comic physics when it suits them.

Originally posted by carver9
Seems like people use real world and comic physics when it suits them.

If by people, you mean a person, then I agree.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
I can bench 300lbs. But I can't destroy those plates with a punch

When analyzing force, it's mass times acceleration. And the mass that's being considered is the one in your fists, including energy drawn from your feet placed on the ground

Lifting is a pushing motion
Punching is a snapping motion

They're distinctive You can't bench 300 pounds though. Example ruined.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
your point is? Originally posted by Philosophia
Lifting/striking are, generally, interchangeable in comics, unless you're a speedster like Flash, in which case writers masturbate to relativity.

The general rule of thumb in comics is, if you can lift something that the other can't, you can outstrike them, unless the writer is into poor man's relativity.

It's why Hulk punches harder than Wonder Woman, even though she can rub one out faster than he can blink.

Are you sure you're reading comics?

Originally posted by carver9
Seems like people use real world and comic physics when it suits them.

Also, I think you're mixing this up with logic.

Going back to my example. And my original post.

I said that I understand how skill and technique etc can get you so far.

Stilt then brought up Cap and Bats with their striking feats.

100% agree.

My question is, to turn it around....do we have examples of people with great lifting feats, but shit punching feats?

To use Bran's example, sure Eddie Hall ain't the greatest puncher. But it's still gonna be a pretty decent punch if you stood there (no bobbing and weaving) and he was allowed to take a free punch at you.

The logic makes no sense when you consider humans, let alone guys who can, I dunno, completely plucking a feat out of thin air here, can bench press the mass equivalent of the entire Earth. And yet we're acting like not pulverising Batman with your pinky is a valid feat....

Baziemarc is more of a comic bencher than a reader. Just because he can bench 300 comics, that doesn't mean he can read 300 comics.

Lifting is a pushing motion.
Reading is an eye movement.

They're distinctive.

At the herald level, yes.

If you're a martial artist, you'll be knocking out Luke Cage and shattering diamond.

I laughed out loud, honestly, at the last paragraph.

Thank you, kind teenager.

This is some Andy Kaufman shit.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I bet Batista - and any other Marvel muscle actor - can outpunch highly skilled 96 year old grannies though.

Or those little kids who have black belts in karate or whatever.

They're still strong.

not the point dude

@Philo, concession accepted

Quan?

You pesky bugger. Switching accounts to bypass the ignore.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
not the point dude

It's precisely the point.

Strength DOES aid striking power. Being able to bench 300lbs doesn't necessarily mean you're the best puncher out there, but it DEFINITELY helps.


Skill without strength is useless. Strength without skill can still help you punch.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's precisely the point.

Strength DOES aid striking power. Being able to bench 300lbs doesn't necessarily mean you're the best puncher out there, but it DEFINITELY helps.


Skill without strength is useless. Strength without skill can still help you punch.

..Yeah you still don't get it. I'll explain further in detail later

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I bet Batista - and any other Marvel muscle actor - can outpunch highly skilled 96 year old grannies though.

Or those little kids who have black belts in karate or whatever.

They're still strong.

You don't even need to go to ridiculous scenarios. Boxing enthusiasts talk about cross division dream fights all the time, and they pretty much universally agree there's a cutoff point where the smaller guy simply isn't going to do enough damage to gain the heavyweights respect.

Heck, even a single division of five lbs often means the difference between a massive damage, and barely bruising them up to the bell.

Lol cdtm, unfortunately it seems I do...

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
..Yeah you still don't get it. I'll explain further in detail later You should send him video.

Make sure you're shooting it naked, wouldn't want clothes to impede the movement.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's precisely the point.

Strength DOES aid striking power. Being able to bench 300lbs doesn't necessarily mean you're the best puncher out there, but it DEFINITELY helps.


Skill without strength is useless. Strength without skill can still help you punch. Here's where I come back in.

It doesn't really. There are ways it could help via benching really ****ing fast like what shot putters do, but mostly it just will add mass which will add weight. I mean I guess it might help the guys who push their punches, but there's no real danger there.

The actual relevant strength is in muscles that are fairly hard to train. Look at internally rotating your hips for example to torque a punch. There's nothing that really targets that and squats don't help.

A bear hits hard because of how it knows how to throw it's weight around. Plus the weight of it's arm/paws. A bear benching more wouldn't help, but a bear that trained it's muscles to throw harder would. I don't know how you'd train those muscles in a bear though.

The muscles you use to throw punches aren't the most helpful in lifting weights and vice versa. Eddie Hall hits hard because he weighs the size of a large Mammoth. That doesn't mean Joe Cocksuck who smokes a lot of meth couldn't hit harder than him though (unlikely because of his background, but possible).

A bear can hit hard because it has the necessary strength to throw its weight around sufficiently fast.

If it was weaker, it would struggle with its own weight, let alone throw a hard strike. Square-cube law.

Technique adds some pliability to striking power, but only when the strength gap is within reasonable gaps.

To go even more extreme, though we really shouldn't have to, an elephant's lazy kick is more powerful than any kick Buakaw or Giorgio Petrosyan throw in kick boxing.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
A bear can hit hard because it has the necessary strength to throw its weight around sufficiently fast.

If it was weaker, it would struggle with its own weight, let alone throw a hard strike. Square-cube law.

Technique adds some pliability to striking power, but only when the strength gap is within reasonable gaps.

To go even more extreme, though we really shouldn't have to, an elephant's lazy kick is more powerful than any kick Buakaw or Giorgio Petrosyan throw in kick boxing. Would you agree that that isn't relevant to human sized and weighted objects though?

And lifting in humans

Captain Marvel is equal to Superman in physical strength and durability (I think Cap has the edge in durability) but Superman is definitely faster.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Here's where I come back in.

It doesn't really. There are ways it could help via benching really ****ing fast like what shot putters do, but mostly it just will add mass which will add weight. I mean I guess it might help the guys who push their punches, but there's no real danger there.

The actual relevant strength is in muscles that are fairly hard to train. Look at internally rotating your hips for example to torque a punch. There's nothing that really targets that and squats don't help.

A bear hits hard because of how it knows how to throw it's weight around. Plus the weight of it's arm/paws. A bear benching more wouldn't help, but a bear that trained it's muscles to throw harder would. I don't know how you'd train those muscles in a bear though.

The muscles you use to throw punches aren't the most helpful in lifting weights and vice versa. Eddie Hall hits hard because he weighs the size of a large Mammoth. That doesn't mean Joe Cocksuck who smokes a lot of meth couldn't hit harder than him though (unlikely because of his background, but possible).

in a sort of similar vein, we have some very small guys who can throw a baseball upwards of a hundred mph, while the strongest guys and the world can't even come close. power from punches, like power to throw, is generated by the speed of various actions and has to do far more with torque and technique or mechanics than muscle mass. /shrug

Also
If you put the strength of an hephalump into a person and assumed it stuck with no downsides (like ripping your arm off), that person would hit harder, but he would also be way faster. Which is something that comics ignore.
Hulk hits harder as he gets stronger but he doesn't exactly get faster. His feats make no sense. Same with Herc.

I don't think you can relate it to comics personally. It's just one of those comic things. I do think this is a more interesting take though.

Originally posted by XLR87T3
Captain Marvel is equal to Superman in physical strength and durability (I think Cap has the edge in durability) but Superman is definitely faster.
Is he now?

They are equals as per the showings.

Superman, The Strongest There Is.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Would you agree that that isn't relevant to human sized and weighted objects though?

And lifting in humans
But my point is that it won't hurt.

And a human sized guy who can bench the earth, A: we kinda have to throw RL physics and biology out, and B: if not, then we have to consider that a guy who can bench the earth is gonna have pretty strong accessory muscles, the ones that are hard to train.

Certainly stronger than his punching of Batman, as the Bazzie Mark, says.

Yes,agree 100% that technique helps.

But muscles don't hamper, especially when you consider the JLA Al at least have some degree of fight training.

This is stupid. Of course strength and tech. matter. To say otherwise is silly. Again, strength is why there are weight classes. Of course tech. is important as well, but no amount of tech will help a child punch harder than a grown man. So silly. Also, Superman has ben specifically stated to be a boxer and to have been trained by Batman. Hence, he has proper tech. Hence, this debate its pointless. Also, in nu52 against H'el he punched so hard that the entire planet, including the watchtower in orbit, was shaking. That is a pretty nifty striking feat.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Is he now?

Well, Superman on more than one occasion said him and Cap are equals.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But my point is that it won't hurt.

And a human sized guy who can bench the earth, A: we kinda have to throw RL physics and biology out, and B: if not, then we have to consider that a guy who can bench the earth is gonna have pretty strong accessory muscles, the ones that are hard to train.

Certainly stronger than his punching of Batman, as the Bazzie Mark, says.

Yes,agree 100% that technique helps.

But muscles don't hamper, especially when you consider the JLA Al at least have some degree of fight training. It won't hurt but the actual strength isn't going to make you hit harder is all. The mass, yes.

A good example is Marius Pudz. Hugely strong. Hits like a *****. Or Mike Tyson, not actually very strong.

It just doesn't translate to power is all. If you adapt the weightlifting so you can hit harder is another story, but that's difficult to do and something comics don't do.

I just think some things in comics don't translate to real world logic well. This is one of them. You can't tell how hard someone hits by their lift in real life for example. In comics you can, or at the very least you get an indication of what they could do in a fight.

Originally posted by carver9
Well, Superman on more than one occasion said him and Cap are equals.
He has also said he is the strongest being on earth.