Superman and Supergirl vs. Wonder Woman and Orion

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Pillow Biter
Standard gear. Current versions.

h1a8
Good fight.
If team 1 employ freeze breath then they can win.
If they dont then it depends on your rules of characters on a forum.

Will Superman and Supergirl operate at top efficiency? Will they have perceptions that make bullets appear to be frozen in time?

If so then they win regardless.

carver9
Team 2. Wonder Woman just stomped an amped Supergirl, beat an amped Superman and Orion can hold his own or beat anyone on that team as well.

abhilegend
Where did Wonder Woman beat an amped Superman or stomped Supergirl Carter?

carver9
Originally posted by abhilegend
Where did Wonder Woman beat an amped Superman or stomped Supergirl Carter?

We seen the same fights. Dont ask this question.

celeyhyga17
laughing out loud

abhilegend
Originally posted by carver9
We seen the same fights. Dont ask this question.
What you see is always different from what actually happens.

Baziemarc123
diana outperformed superman against supergirl

Stoic
@Ahbi, can Orion beat Superman in your opinion?

abhilegend
Originally posted by Stoic
@Ahbi, can Orion beat Superman in your opinion?
For a majority? No

xJLxKing

Zack M
Team 2.

Pillow Biter
None of them have a ceiling like Superman does. It's unclear why other Kryptonians and/or Daxamites don't seem to have that special extra gear or two Superman does. But they usually don't.

It's pretty close overall, but if Superman is having an uber day, then he'll swing it for his team.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Team 2.

quanchi112
Team 2 drops them. WW is the face of the dceu so this matters. In comics they are just too skilled to lose.

riv6672
Originally posted by carver9
Team 2. Wonder Woman just stomped an amped Supergirl, beat an amped Superman and Orion can hold his own or beat anyone on that team as well.
This, if only because i know it will piss ppl off.

Pillow Biter
what Superman vs Supergirl fight are you referencing?

Delta1938
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
None of them have a ceiling like Superman does. It's unclear why other Kryptonians and/or Daxamites don't seem to have that special extra gear or two Superman does. But they usually don't.

It's pretty close overall, but if Superman is having an uber day, then he'll swing it for his team.

Because he's Superman. Like it or not he gets that treatment.

riv6672
^^^one door closes another door opens. Huh.

Zack M
Split.

riv6672
I could see a split, too, TBH.
Its pretty close match.

Pillow Biter
It is, with the caveat that there are days Superman could solo 2 or even 3 of the other combatants. Sometimes reasons are provided for this, sometimes it's just because he is Superman.

It's hard to say how often or likely this is to happen, but the same can't really be said about the other 3 (though theoretically it could apply to Supergirl, too.)

riv6672
Stuff like that can apply to characters in general, though.
There are examples of single characters owning groups all through comics.
Heck even Attuma has had a good day against the Avengers.

Its not really a huge point in fights like this imo.

Insane Titan
Team 2.

Orion beats Superman, WW beats Supergirl

Pillow Biter
Originally posted by riv6672
Stuff like that can apply to characters in general, though.
There are examples of single characters owning groups all through comics.
Heck even Attuma has had a good day against the Avengers.

Its not really a huge point in fights like this imo.

My argument is that it happens significantly more frequently with Superman, by enough of a margin that it is usually worth noting.

IMO, fight expectations are more of a function or a curve on a graph than a single point answer, especially with Supes. Hulk is, of course, even more so. Sentry's the worst. Some characters are a lot more variable than others and a good fight analysis should at least note this.

riv6672
^^^You are definitely on taget.
I just feel its a can of worms that doesnt need opening, especially w. Superman, especially on this site.

Pillow Biter
Fair enough. This site is slowly heading down the CBR rabbit hole. All about feats. Trying to be more realistic than the comics. Using stupid terms like CIS and PIS.

I gotcha. But I'm a glutton for punishment. Or more likely, will just be totally ignored. Guys here care more about trying to beat somebody than get at the truth.

Putinbot1
Superman beats who ever he faces, so it depends how quickly he does that. It could end up a 2 on one in either direction.

riv6672
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Fair enough. This site is slowly heading down the CBR rabbit hole. All about feats. Trying to be more realistic than the comics. Using stupid terms like CIS and PIS.

I gotcha. But I'm a glutton for punishment. Or more likely, will just be totally ignored. Guys here care more about trying to beat somebody than get at the truth.
Damn. So true.
Thanks for not taking my post(s) the wrong way.

Pillow Biter
Comics need to be discussed like literature or mythology; not debated like physics or archaeology.

The real universe has a coherence that comics lack. Any attempt to impose such coherence on comics will radically distort one's perceptions and understanding of the material.

Putinbot1
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Comics need to be discussed like literature or mythology; not debated like physics or archaeology.

The real universe has a coherence that comics lack. Any attempt to impose such coherence on comics will radically distort one's perceptions and understanding of the material. Agreed and very good post. It's the meaning of the writer that matters.

riv6672
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Comics need to be discussed like literature or mythology; not debated like physics or archaeology.

The real universe has a coherence that comics lack. Any attempt to impose such coherence on comics will radically distort one's perceptions and understanding of the material.
And enjoyment.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Fair enough. This site is slowly heading down the CBR rabbit hole. All about feats. Trying to be more realistic than the comics. Using stupid terms like CIS and PIS.

I gotcha. But I'm a glutton for punishment. Or more likely, will just be totally ignored. Guys here care more about trying to beat somebody than get at the truth.

We literally have rules to prevent that. People that ignore them enough end up getting banned.

Pillow Biter
That may true with respect to some misbehavior, but I feel the rules themselves encourage excessive realism. There's no need to mention PIS or CIS in the rules. These concepts add nothing to comic analysis, IMO.

DarkSaint85
Am interested in your viewpoint, pillow b.

What do you mean by excessive realism?

For example, Spidey vs Firelord (as a named example of PIS).

bluewaterrider
Wonder Woman recently fighting an amped Supergirl was mentioned here by more than one person, but I've yet to see a single image in this thread, so:

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38830571_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38830572_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38830573_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38830574_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38830575_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38830576_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38830577_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38830578_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38830579_image.jpg

Source: Wonder Woman #47 (series begun in 2016)
Circa: May 2018

Putinbot1
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
That may true with respect to some misbehavior, but I feel the rules themselves encourage excessive realism. There's no need to mention PIS or CIS in the rules. These concepts add nothing to comic analysis, IMO. Also true, I actually said this on this site 13 years ago.

Pillow Biter
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Wonder Woman recently fighting an amped Supergirl was mentioned here by more than one person, but I've yet to see a single image in this thread, so:

Circa: May 2018

A classic writer hedge. Supergirl is amped to some unknown, though seemingly not vast, degree; but she is also not fully in her right mind and somewhat possessed.

Wonder Woman wins by using the lasso to undo the possession, which also renders Supergirl unconscious.

It's unclear who would have won without this dynamic. It's unclear what the fight really indicates about Wonder Woman vs. Supergirl under normal circumstances, other than to reinforce the view that they are not vastly different in stats and are threats to one another--which seems to have been a fairly widespread take for at least the last few years.

But that relative equality is a bit complex when you really look at it. DC wants to keep Wonder Woman as their most powerful woman, but they tend to allow Superman to be the number one overall. Some writers like to try to draw attention to Supergirl by playing around with the idea of her being equal to or sometimes even greater than her cousin. In a universe where Superman is usually given precedence over Wonder Woman, playing Kara up as Superman's rival starts to undermine the 'WW is the most powerful female' stance. You sometimes get A>B>C>A contradictory logic.

Such tension will often play out with WW seeming equal to Kara in stats and superior in formidability due to skill when they face off 1v1. But when WW is not around, there are times where Kara raw power (and even overall formidibility) can be inferred to be greater than WW's based on what is going on or being said.

Comics.

Stoic
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Fair enough. This site is slowly heading down the CBR rabbit hole. All about feats. Trying to be more realistic than the comics. Using stupid terms like CIS and PIS.

I gotcha. But I'm a glutton for punishment. Or more likely, will just be totally ignored. Guys here care more about trying to beat somebody than get at the truth.

So very true. It often leaves you nearly feeling like you should bang your head against the wall when you bring solid proof that is denied as being some form of PIS.

Pillow Biter
Well, another common mistake IMO is the baord's attitude to what 'proof' really means.
At best, solid evidence shows you what one writer thought about a character in one portrayal. That's it. And that is 'at best', as writers have been known to contradict themselves in the same story or even book--especially when it comes to the empirical limits of a character's power. Writers tend to write the big feats just for fun, with little thought to physics or what such a feat should logically imply the next time the character throws down with some bank robbers in midtown. There's a reason we call a lot of the best feats 'space cheese'. It's not that they didn't happen. It's just that they are basically epiphenomenal and don't matter.
At the end of the day, it's tough to prove anything. If we want to know if say Orion would beat Wonder Woman, we have to look at the totality of each character's showings--and not just the ones where they are directly compared. That's a lot of data. Most posters have only seen some of it, and even if one has read every DC comic ever, that's way too much data to systematically process, even if the nature of the data allowed for that kind of logical processing (hint: it usually doesn't).
So we have to use the eyeball test and intuition. Good faith posters who try to be as unbiased as possible have to just paint a picture of what they think the totality of the evidence suggests. They can include some scans as illustrations--but even the most definitive scans simply illustrate a single data point among many.
So real comic discussion aimed at the truth is more about a poster indicating how much of the material they have seen, and then describing as best they can what trends and patterns they have seen. We compare such descriptions from posters and use our own holistic logic, intuition, and other faculties to make our best guess.
It's not science and can't really be.

Pillow Biter
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Am interested in your viewpoint, pillow b.

What do you mean by excessive realism?

For example, Spidey vs Firelord (as a named example of PIS).

This would be a pretty lengthy discussion that I might not have time for at the moment.

But the best way to deal with Spidey vs. FL is to just accept it since it is one data point among so many. It basically doesn't matter. If Spider-man started beating up Heralds with any degree of regularity, then we'd have to go more in depth about what it means for comics in general.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
That may true with respect to some misbehavior, but I feel the rules themselves encourage excessive realism. There's no need to mention PIS or CIS in the rules. These concepts add nothing to comic analysis, IMO.

I would argue that what you're painting as a negative is actually necessary to fill in the gaps. Without PIS and CIS, debates descend in to a mess.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
This would be a pretty lengthy discussion that I might not have time for at the moment.

But the best way to deal with Spidey vs. FL is to just accept it since it is one data point among so many. It basically doesn't matter. If Spider-man started beating up Heralds with any degree of regularity, then we'd have to go more in depth about what it means for comics in general.

He's done the same to Masterson Thor. Titania (iirc). Juggernaut was unable to KO him, Colossus with Cyttorak amp AND the Phoenix Force, together with Magik (a Hell Lord with the Phoenix Force who doesn't hold back) were unable to KO/kill him.

Then we have Batman.....

Pillow Biter
Hmmm...then we'd have to look at each situation in more detail, case by case. And at each hero, in more detail.

But as a genera trend, feats tend to scale with power level more exponentially while actual ability to hurt and beat one another only scales geometrically.

For all its flaws, the old Marvel Super Heroes system did in some ways capture this quite well.

Thor would be at say Unearthly (100) strength, while Spider-man was at Incredible (40) and Cap was at Excellent (20--would be Remarkable (30) these days). So Thor's damage output is 2.5 times Spidey's, but he could lift 100+ tons and Spidey only 10. And powers at Unearthly might be allowed a global range of effect, while Incredible-ranked powers would have like 10 blocks or something.

There's no doubt that going by the comics, weaker characters are much more able to affect--and on a good day even beat much more powerful characters--than would seem at all possible or logical when looking at their feats. Yet another reason why feats don't really matter.

Pillow Biter
Originally posted by -Pr-
I would argue that what you're painting as a negative is actually necessary to fill in the gaps. Without PIS and CIS, debates descend in to a mess.

I would argue back that this is because people's approach to debate is wrongheaded. They want pseudo-scientific, empirically-provable debates where you can 'prove' you are right.

Comics don't tend to work that way. Using PIS and CIS may seem to clean up debates, but it also means that whatever it is you end up debating isn't really what's going on in the comics. I'd also argue that PIS and CIS only appear to clean up debates--if you push that logic to its natural extent, the debates actually become impossible to decide. There isn't enough consistent and good data. Can Flash beat the Surfer? Well...can we really infer super speed to the Surfer? Exactly how fast is he? exactly how fast is the Flash? If you went at it as scientifically as possible I doubt you could answer these questions.

So I'd rather just discuss it the way one would mythology or literature. There is evidence. But you rarely get definitive proof--but that's OK. You can still have great and interesting discussions that illuminate the source material.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
I would argue back that this is because people's approach to debate is wrongheaded. They want pseudo-scientific, empirically-provable debates where you can 'prove' you are right.

Comics don't tend to work that way. Using PIS and CIS may seem to clean up debates, but it also means that whatever it is you end up debating isn't really what's going on in the comics. I'd also argue that PIS and CIS only appear to clean up debates--if you push that logic to its natural extent, the debates actually become impossible to decide. There isn't enough consistent and good data. Can Flash beat the Surfer? Well...can we really infer super speed to the Surfer? Exactly how fast is he? exactly how fast is the Flash? If you went at it as scientifically as possible I doubt you could answer these questions.

So I'd rather just discuss it the way one would mythology or literature. There is evidence. But you rarely get definitive proof--but that's OK. You can still have great and interesting discussions that illuminate the source material.

As interesting as that is, I just don't see how it would be feasible on a vs board. What you're talking about sounds more like debating the merits of a character to me, not their actual abilities.

One Big Mob
The old Marvel system was what people can press over their head iirc, which is way above picking up that same weight. Simply going by that and saying feats don't matter do not tell the whole tale. It also assumes the handbook writers are absolutely 100 percent correct, and it basically deletes almost every Namor feat.

What if Spider-Man overhead presses 30 tons for example? What are we allowed to use?

Pillow Biter
I merely meant that the under the Marvel system, the relationship between a character's ability to affect the environment and his or her ability to affect other heroes was somewhat analogous to the comics.
By no means do I think that handbooks or RPG stats are definitive in any way, including with respect to maximum lifts and power output, etc.

Pillow Biter
Originally posted by -Pr-
As interesting as that is, I just don't see how it would be feasible on a vs board. What you're talking about sounds more like debating the merits of a character to me, not their actual abilities.

I think of it as debating them within the paradigms and conventions set by the comics themselves. Try to see things as the writers and and editors have seen, and would be likely to see, such battles play out. Quips aside, it's not really true that writers can 'do whatever they want' . Sometimes a writer goes off the reservation, but there are typically some general consensuses that can be observed with respect to how characters rank against one another with respect to a wide variety of qualities.

Inter-company comparisons are harder than intra-company ones, but similar principles can still be applied.

There's a wealth of data with respect to the relative rankings of characters within a universe that have nothing to do with trying to measure and compare feats of any kind. This is the goldmine and what can and should be focused on, virtually to the exclusion of feats.

One Big Mob
It gets... difficult to say what counts and what doesn't imo.

I like going by a good base, and throwing out the odd high feat depending on what the opposition uses. It's pretty fair to me. Handbooks are completely ignored for power levels. I don't care if Luke Cage is listed as a class 40 if he can go fist to fist with a Celestial for instance.

Some people go exclusively high. Some people go exclusively low. Some people combine the two. Best to combat that when it comes up though as opposed to making blanket statements about everyone.

Pillow Biter
I question what people's goals or aims are.

Mine is to elucidate the actual source material to better understand what is going on and what the writer is trying to convey. It's not like power levels and relative ability don't matter to these stories; they are often integral. But try to understand each story on it's own merits first. Individual arcs by single writers are essentially the basic units of coherence. Often they contradict, but understand them on their own merits, and then see what the trend is.

For example, in some stories Superman is being presented as a poor combatant, and little credence is given to him having seriously dynamic power, like in Rucka's fight of Superman vs Wonder Woman. You can clearly see that, unleashed, Superman has a significant power edge over Wonder Woman; but it's not so overhwhelming that Diana has no chance.

In a story like OWAW, when Superman is unleashed, he's far more powerful than Wonder Woman, and she would get destroyed if she faced him, virtually regardless of his skill level. (Though he is credited with competent combat skills in that arc.)

Figuring out the power relationships in a story help one understand that story better. Similarly, talking about the overall trends in all stories helps one understand the characters better and what our expectations should be when next our hero--though we should never be surprised when a writer defies consensus and our expectations. It's comics!

Rage.Of.Olympus
We can never just have a thread with Superman where the Superman team loses and moving on.

We have to have like 5 pages of "WELL, if the Sun was really bright and his opponent was nursing a hangover after a heavy night of drinking, Superman's team, and maybe even Superman alone, could possibly, probably, maybe, just might, hopefully even solo. Not often, but it's possible!"

*5 pages of why this unlikely possibility is possible*

EVERY TIME. I've never seen this phenomenon with any other character aside from maaaybe the Sentry but that motherf*cker's average fluctuates more than the TSX.

panthergod
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
I question what people's goals or aims are.

Mine is to elucidate the actual source material to better understand what is going on and what the writer is trying to convey. It's not like power levels and relative ability don't matter to these stories; they are often integral. But try to understand each story on it's own merits first. Individual arcs by single writers are essentially the basic units of coherence. Often they contradict, but understand them on their own merits, and then see what the trend is.

For example, in some stories Superman is being presented as a poor combatant, and little credence is given to him having seriously dynamic power, like in Rucka's fight of Superman vs Wonder Woman. You can clearly see that, unleashed, Superman has a significant power edge over Wonder Woman; but it's not so overhwhelming that Diana has no chance.

In a story like OWAW, when Superman is unleashed, he's far more powerful than Wonder Woman, and she would get destroyed if she faced him, virtually regardless of his skill level. (Though he is credited with competent combat skills in that arc.)

Figuring out the power relationships in a story help one understand that story better. Similarly, talking about the overall trends in all stories helps one understand the characters better and what our expectations should be when next our hero--though we should never be surprised when a writer defies consensus and our expectations. It's comics!

This can often be true, but you have been personally corrected on your factually incorrect statements for years now. Either reference direct examples for your stance for this character or stop purposely conveying misinformation.

For one, you are again ignoring the factor of editorial regimes and strict continuity with the Carlin and Berganza eras, for one. Rucka also co wrote the War of NEw Krypton, where Superman absolutely displayed far beyond top tier power, and reemphasized the energy aspect of his dynamic power factor.

Pillow Biter
Editorial regimes matter, but I've never been convinced that they have ever resulted in the kind of strict and cohesive continuity that you suggest they do.

I stand by my analysis of Rucka's Superman vs. WW fight. That he may have taken a different stance later on doesn't necessarily retroactively change my interpretation of his earlier WW vs. Superman fight. Writers are not always consistent with themselves; or perhaps there is no inconsistency. In the WW/Supes fight, Supes dropping the gloves clearly had an impact--he seemed clearly more powerful than WW and the degree of his superiority had clearly increased due to his mindset. But Diana was close enough for her skills and gear to keep her in the game, in that comic. I've seen much bigger boosts in Superman's performance when he cuts loose, possibly even from Rucka.

Pillow Biter
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
We can never just have a thread with Superman where the Superman team loses and moving on.

We have to have like 5 pages of "WELL, if the Sun was really bright and his opponent was nursing a hangover after a heavy night of drinking, Superman's team, and maybe even Superman alone, could possibly, probably, maybe, just might, hopefully even solo. Not often, but it's possible!"

*5 pages of why this unlikely possibility is possible*

EVERY TIME. I've never seen this phenomenon with any other character aside from maaaybe the Sentry but that motherf*cker's average fluctuates more than the TSX.

Some characters have extremely variable performance levels. It's worth noting. The ratings of most Superman, Hulk, and Sentry fights, for example, should have a note about their variability and what that could mean to the results. That's just being complete. There are plenty of fights that I think Superman is typically not favored to win, but very well might on a 'good day'. Yes, all heroes have some variability, but Superman's is greater to enough of an extent that it usually needs commenting on.

For the record, I haven't seen any signs from Bendis that he really subscribes to this view of Superman. But we'll see what happens.

Delta1938
Pillow Bitter, why don't you make an argument with yourself, arguing for both sides, to show what you think the debating should be like? I don't even mean this, pick something and make it short and sweet for both sides, handful of (short) arguments and counter arguments for each.

In all honesty I think the way you think they should be done is worse in convolusion than you're arguing the way things are is, but I'm willing to give you a chance.

abhilegend
That's too much to ask for.

-Pr-
Try to get back on topic, everyone. Let's not ruin the discussion any more than you have already.

bluewaterrider
Team 2 wins.

Diana handles Supergirl then teams with Orion and takes down Superman.

panthergod
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Editorial regimes matter, but I've never been convinced that they have ever resulted in the kind of strict and cohesive continuity that you suggest they do.


It'd not a matter of debate. We know FOR A FACT that they do, from the writer and editors own words, and in the case of Superman's Carin era, we have them ON CAMERA showing it. Period.

Denying this fact is why you are disqualifiying to pretend to be an authority of any kind. on this subject. you are asking question that have been definitively answered.


-- Superman was also being externally influenced. This was not Superman operating at an identical mindset he was in, say, Absolute Power.

Pillow Biter
If you have a link for the Carin interview you are talking about, I'd definitely like to see it. I'm always open to new evidence. The comics themselves do not appear to indicate the kind of strict coherence and consistency with respect to the fine details of Superman's power set or power levels, over long periods, that you suggest. Nor have any of the writer and editor interviews, posts, letters, etc. that I have seen. But I could always be missing something and thus have been wrong.

panthergod
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
If you have a link for the Carin interview you are talking about, I'd definitely like to see it. I'm always open to new evidence. The comics themselves do not appear to indicate the kind of strict coherence and consistency with respect to the fine details of Superman's power set or power levels, over long periods, that you suggest. Nor have any of the writer and editor interviews, posts, letters, etc. that I have seen. But I could always be missing something and thus have been wrong. '

Heres a snippet of what I rashed Shuruku Demon about last years:

panthergod
Here is Carlin in the letters page making it clear that guest writers storylines were consistent with overall shared co plotting across the books:

https://imgur.com/a/coifip9

.. So now you've been corrected on this. Hopefully you wont continue to do that thing were you pretend your head canon trumps the actual books.

-Pr-
Guys.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Try to get back on topic, everyone. Let's not ruin the discussion any more than you have already.

This isn't the place.

Badabing
Bans?

-Pr-
laughing out loud

If people keep derailing the thread, possibly.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.