Xavier vs these telepaths

abhilegend

Originally posted by StyleTime
I'm curious as to why they think Saturn Girl wins.

I'm guessing this is more "she sensed the universe" wank, which Xavier has done as well anway.

Except, you know, he actually beats people. Originally posted by StyleTime
Scope, yes. Skill, no.

And Xavier has done the universe thing too, so it's not like he's lacking in scope. I'd argue his feats of power/skill exceed hers though, which is why I can't see her winning.

https://postimg.cc/image/xw9vlltyv/
https://postimg.cc/image/er6mbun0n/

I'm legit not sure Imra could take Emma consistently, but that's for another thread.
Stop, Imra would beat either Xavier or Emma.

Xavier being immersed within the thoughts of the universe does not mean he actively scanned entire universe.

Astner

Originally posted by StyleTime
Any rests in between rounds? Or is it instant tagging in when someone goes down?
Doesn't matter, he goes down in the first round.

StyleTime

Originally posted by abhilegend
Stop, Imra would beat either Xavier or Emma.

Xavier being immersed within the thoughts of the universe does not mean he actively scanned entire universe.
I don't see how. Emma is an interesting match though.

You're still sticking with that, eh? That's not what happened, but to each his own I guess.
Originally posted by Astner
Doesn't matter, he goes down in the first round.
Nah.

Zack M

Originally posted by abhilegend
Stop, Imra would beat either Xavier or Emma.

Xavier being immersed within the thoughts of the universe does not mean he actively scanned entire universe.

thumb up

abhilegend

Originally posted by StyleTime
I don't see how. Emma is an interesting match though.

To novices like Rachel maybe. Imra would fry her.

You're telling me Xavier suddenly connected with everyone in the universe while he was powerless?

Xavier has one such feat making it quite an outlier. Imra has several such feats.

Xavier can't even read Mystique due to her shape-shifting mind. Imra has mindraped Durlans like nothing.

Glorificus

Xavier wins in each.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Glorificus
Xavier wins in each.
Laughable. Imra or Black would shit on his soul.

xJLxKing

He beats them all.
I'm not 100% about Saturn Girl

Zack M

There is also the legion of three worlds feat, too. That's way out of xaviers league.

StyleTime

Originally posted by abhilegend
To novices like Rachel maybe. Imra would fry her.

You're telling me Xavier suddenly connected with everyone in the universe while he was powerless?

Xavier has one such feat making it quite an outlier. Imra has several such feats.

Xavier can't even read Mystique due to her shape-shifting mind. Imra has mindraped Durlans like nothing.
Imra would lose to Rachel at this point. Emma likely would too, as Rachel's been outperforming her. Her skills finally caught up to her power, and she got an upgrade on top of that.

No, I'm saying his powers were returned and, before reigning them in, they reached out to universe wide lengths.

Yet, she has nowhere near the quantity/quality of mindcontrol feats or showings/comparisons against other high order telepaths.

Mystique, under that interpretation, would resist anyone. Imra was left catatonic after mindbattling one particular Durlan, and failed to control a crowd of flatscans if we want to lowball.

Don't fall for Prepmans Saturn Girl crush. Saturn Queen has accomplished less than Emma Frost, yet it took the two strongest Saturn Girls just to stalemate her. And they couldn't even block her thoughts.

If J'onn wasn't created solely to lose, he'd beat her too.
Originally posted by xJLxKing
He beats them all.
I'm not 100% about Saturn Girl
thumb up

Saturn Girl is like a telepathic Gamora or Drax. Once you really dig, you see there's a lot of undeserved hype. She not quite as mainstream so it's understandable, but her resume isn't exactly stacked...
Originally posted by Zack M
There is also the legion of three worlds feat, too. That's way out of xaviers league.
If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, then no, it's not. If I'm in a room that has doors opening directly to every KMCer's house, I can shout to all you pretty easily. It doesn't mean my voice is crazy powerful.

abhilegend

Originally posted by StyleTime
Imra would lose to Rachel at this point. Emma likely would too, as Rachel's been outperforming her. Her skills finally caught up to her power, and she got an upgrade on top of that.

Meh, Rachel would find a way to lose. She always does.

False. His telepathy was activated by immersed in the thoughts of the universe.

Not to mention that Imra has done that kind of feat thrice.

Show me a telepath who can do what she has done. Even Xavier hasn't done insane feats like she has done.

Haha, no. She wouldn't do do that against Imra.

Issue number?

I'm the original Legion fan here.

You're trying to lowball Saturn Girl in a series where She scanned the entire multiverse to bring an infinite number of LOSH to fight Time Trapper?

Emma would be lucky to polish Imra's psychic boots.

laughing out loud

That's why she already fried his mind.

Even Saturn Queen killed J'onn outright.

How about no she didn't do anything like that. She had to mindlink infinite number of LOSH across time and space to convince them to come to her.

Nate Grey is wanked to the moon for a far lesser feat.

abhilegend

Mind you, universo put everyone on Earth asleep at once.

https://s33.postimg.cc/td6jofekb/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/etzen0t57/image.jpg

And Imra made him beg for his life.

https://s33.postimg.cc/l54m3x7dn/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/6yov8pby3/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/vf7136kej/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/4hd41g7h7/image.jpg

Remind me of the time Xavier had such a feat? Oh right, the last time everyone on Earth was asleep, he, Moondragon and Jean Grey combined couldn't undo it.

krisblaze

Style calling people "flatscans" makes me rock hard

leonidas

so where are these universal feats for imra? you know, for those who haven't seen them....

"Id"

Originally posted by leonidas
so where are these universal feats for imra? you know, for those who haven't seen them....

We have seen them. They are not legit.

leonidas

i know that, and you know that, but i'm sure there are still people out there who haven't seen them and just hear the wank...

StyleTime

Originally posted by abhilegend
False. His telepathy was activated by immersed in the thoughts of the universe.

Show me a telepath who can do what she has done. Even Xavier hasn't done insane feats like she has done.

Issue number?

I'm the original Legion fan here.

You're trying to lowball Saturn Girl in a series where She scanned the entire multiverse to bring an infinite number of LOSH to fight Time Trapper?
Except, like last time, that is not what the narration says. You simply dislike it.

Likewise, she has never replicate Xavier mind controlling planets. She can scan a wide distance. That's it. When push came to shove, and she actually fought a barely Emma-level telepath in Saturn Queen, Imra came up short. Scanning feats mean very little on their own, especially when you struggle with much, much less.

It's not relevant now. I didn't know which Imra we were going with. That was Earth 247.

Liking the Legion is different from living deep within Saturn Girl's anus though.

Originally posted by abhilegend

That's why she already fried his mind.

Even Saturn Queen killed J'onn outright.

How about no she didn't do anything like that. She had to mindlink infinite number of LOSH across time and space to convince them to come to her.

No, she didn't. He was standing there and she surprise psi_bolted him. They didn't fight. He didn't even go down. It just hurt. It's like me punching you while you're reading a book.

Different Saturn Queen. Diffrent J'onn, who had just literally been brought to life seconds before. We have no clue what his powers were or to what extent they were. It's a non-feat.

Mindlinking with all the doors laid out in front of her. Neato.

StyleTime

Originally posted by abhilegend
Mind you, universo put everyone on Earth asleep at once.

https://s33.postimg.cc/td6jofekb/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/etzen0t57/image.jpg

And Imra made him beg for his life.

https://s33.postimg.cc/l54m3x7dn/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/6yov8pby3/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/vf7136kej/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/4hd41g7h7/image.jpg

Remind me of the time Xavier had such a feat? Oh right, the last time everyone on Earth was asleep, he, Moondragon and Jean Grey combined couldn't undo it.
He didn't do it at once. It was gradual, which was even stated in your scan.

And that Universo is a hypnotist, not a telepath. It's not really applicable vs Xavier as hypnotism has always occupied a separate space in comics. This feat may come in handy if Imra squares off with Sauron I guess.

Call me when Universo, or Saturn Girl, can steal the psyches of the entire planet like Xavier can.

Zack M

That Universo was a telepath. He was called the most dangerous telepath in the universe.

StyleTime

Originally posted by abhilegend

Remind me of the time Xavier had such a feat? Oh right, the last time everyone on Earth was asleep, he, Moondragon and Jean Grey combined couldn't undo it.
Forgot about this.

Jean/Xavier/Moondragon/Psylocke were literally sitting in another reality battling the Magus. Once they projected into their reality(with amps), they were still hundreds of lightyears from Earth and managed to mind control people. Magus was also assaulting Earth, so it was a double whammy.

https://postimg.cc/image/82nyuunhj/
https://postimg.cc/image/r7r84m9vb/
https://postimg.cc/image/tcbl643wn/

Trying to spin that as some kind of low feat is just ignoring context. It's not a relevant feat regardless though.
Originally posted by Zack M
That Universo was a telepath. He was called the most dangerous telepath in the universe.
I'm 99% sure you're thinking of Earth 247, in which he and Saturn Girl were amped off of Titanet, but where was this?

abhilegend

Originally posted by leonidas
so where are these universal feats for imra? you know, for those who haven't seen them....
ermm

Already posted several times. But here you go. Mindlinking across the multiverse.

http://i.imgur.com/2KitjJv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qON4WFu.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xe1hZQ1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bf1aV5K.jpg

Scanning the universe.

http://i.imgur.com/ZBUTXKc.jpg

Tapping into the thoughts of every single being in the universe.

https://s16.postimg.cc/kawvhwdfl/RCO037_1468998681.jpg https://s3.postimg.cc/ywp8skbsf/RCO038_1468998681.jpg

abhilegend

Originally posted by StyleTime
Except, like last time, that is not what the narration says. You simply dislike it.

Why would I dislike the scene?

How is Saturn Queen Emma level telepath? She outright killed J'onn who has done pretty much everything Xavier has done TP wise.

You're randomly assigning tiers to characters who have no such designations.

And how did Imra came up short?

Wut? That's Earth 0 Imra.

So does blowing muties.

She pushed him away from reading Mon-El and J'onn subsided like the ***** he is.

That's the same Saturn Queen. She was an aberration.

And she had shut his mind down in the first instance as well.

Nate Grey is blowed upon a far inferior feat.

Mind showing any comparable feat for Xavier or Emma, eh?

abhilegend

Originally posted by StyleTime
He didn't do it at once. It was gradual, which was even stated in your scan.

Wut?

https://s33.postimg.cc/6ohcoux6n/image.jpg

His memory states it was all at once.

Imra questions it, nothing more.

She still had to fend off all the power of Universo.

Heh, J'onn has already done it.

And he gets killed by Saturn Queen.

abhilegend

Originally posted by StyleTime
Forgot about this.

Jean/Xavier/Moondragon/Psylocke were literally sitting in another reality battling the Magus. Once they projected into their reality(with amps), they were still hundreds of lightyears from Earth and managed to mind control people. Magus was also assaulting Earth, so it was a double whammy.

https://postimg.cc/image/82nyuunhj/
https://postimg.cc/image/r7r84m9vb/
https://postimg.cc/image/tcbl643wn/

They had a conduit in Sleepwalker and all they did was project their thoughts in Earth populace.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Sleepwalker/Issue-18?id=65445

They did not mindcontrol anyone.

abhilegend

Also she has literally turned a character with power of both Darkseid and Mordru to dust by his own thoughts turned into reality.

https://s33.postimg.cc/yohbewhy3/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/t0b0o0lbf/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/pgp2y7y17/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/6od7unwi3/image.jpg

That's beyond anything Xavier has ever shown, it's basically reality warping with telepathy.

Coincidentally, Dev-Em was stated to be actually a titanian who gave himself kryptonian powers by just wishing it.

https://s33.postimg.cc/aanmkwfcr/image.jpg

And Imra is even more powerful than him.

StyleTime

Originally posted by abhilegend
Why would I dislike the scene?

How is Saturn Queen Emma level telepath? She outright killed J'onn who has done pretty much everything Xavier has done TP wise.

You're randomly assigning tiers to characters who have no such designations.

And how did Imra came up short?

Cuz you're our lovable abhilegend.

As I said, different Saturn Queen from the one Imra fought. And it was an alternate timeline J'onn that was literally just brought to life.

It's not random. Saturn Queen(Short Hair, Final Crisis) hasn't actually done anything Emma couldn't do or exceed.

She needed help to face SQ, and still failed to block her.
Originally posted by abhilegend

Wut? That's Earth 0 Imra.

So does blowing muties.

She pushed him away from reading Mon-El and J'onn subsided like the ***** he is.

That's the same Saturn Queen. She was an aberration.

And she had shut his mind down in the first instance as well.

Nate Grey is blowed upon a far inferior feat.

Mind showing any comparable feat for Xavier or Emma, eh?
I meant the showing I brought up.

Meh, I haven't seen anything on the level of Prep for the mutants. Some overhype for some characters sure, but nothing like this.

J'onn's a ***** I agree, but still, ultimately not a meaningful showing. They weren't even fighting.

Nah, it's a different chick.

Comparable to what? I'd consider Xavier's planet feats superior personally, as he's not essentially standing in a room opening directly to those places, and it was actual mind control. Emma has controlled folks from the other side of the globe as well.

It's really just more evidence Saturn Girl can broadcast over a wide range though, which we knew already.
Originally posted by abhilegend
They had a conduit in Sleepwalker and all they did was project their thoughts in Earth populace.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Sleepwalker/Issue-18?id=65445

They did not mindcontrol anyone.
Because they were an entire reality away. It's why they needed tech.
https://postimg.cc/image/no5aetuav/

Yes, they did mind control people. They state it in the scans I posted earlier. That said, it's not important either way as we can't use the feat here. I just wanted to clear up the misconception.

Zack M

Originally posted by StyleTime
Forgot about this.

Jean/Xavier/Moondragon/Psylocke were literally sitting in another reality battling the Magus. Once they projected into their reality(with amps), they were still hundreds of lightyears from Earth and managed to mind control people. Magus was also assaulting Earth, so it was a double whammy.

https://postimg.cc/image/82nyuunhj/
https://postimg.cc/image/r7r84m9vb/
https://postimg.cc/image/tcbl643wn/

Trying to spin that as some kind of low feat is just ignoring context. It's not a relevant feat regardless though.

I'm 99% sure you're thinking of Earth 247, in which he and Saturn Girl were amped off of Titanet, but where was this?

Where did it State they were amped? I think they used some sort of tech to trap him, but Irma placed illusions in him, tp wise. He was still a telepath.

abhilegend

Originally posted by StyleTime
Cuz you're our lovable abhilegend.

ermm

I started as an X men fan.

Wrong on both counts. It was main earth J'onn who was killed earlier by Saturn Queen and then brought back.

Except kill J'onn.

If that's your only card here, I can brought up dozens of scenes for either Emma or Xavier where they look like dirt.

PF Emma couldn't even stop Thunderbolt Ross from hulking out when he has been explicitly stated to have no mental defenses.

Which one?

Because you don't want to see it.

Of course. Because you say so, eh?

No, it wasn't.

Imra wasn't standing in a room either. She had to scan entire multiverse for the Legions.

Imra doesn't go around controlling people because she is not a douchebag like Xavier or Emma.

But piss her off and she would straight up destroy beings with the power of Darkseid and Mordru.

And only you would think controlling a few people better than scanning entire multiverse.

And kill with it too.

Xavier can neither match her scope nor skill.

Show me Xavier drawing out subconscious of herald level characters by just a look.

And when they found a path, all of their power could do nothing to hyptonized people.

While Imra can straight up kick the ass of a being who could put entire planet in a trance.

A few people. Their combined power did nothing to hyptonized people of the planet.

StyleTime

Originally posted by abhilegend
Also she has literally turned a character with power of both Darkseid and Mordru to dust by his own thoughts turned into reality.

https://s33.postimg.cc/yohbewhy3/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/t0b0o0lbf/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/pgp2y7y17/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/6od7unwi3/image.jpg

That's beyond anything Xavier has ever shown, it's basically reality warping with telepathy.

Coincidentally, Dev-Em was stated to be actually a titanian who gave himself kryptonian powers by just wishing it.

https://s33.postimg.cc/aanmkwfcr/image.jpg

And Imra is even more powerful than him.
She put an image of Darkseid and his contempt into the Servant's head. The rest, I don't know, magic is crazy. Seems like he was so utterly convinced of Darkseid's hatred that he lost it and got consumed. I wouldn't really call it reality warping.

Belongs in the same boat as Xavier battling Phoenix on all planes of reality. Sounds great and such, but it's ultimately left up to however much weight you personally want to put into it.
Originally posted by Zack M
Where did it State they were amped? I think they used some sort of tech to trap him, but Irma placed illusions in him, tp wise. He was still a telepath.
Repeatedly in throughout the arc. I posted this all in the Jean vs Saturn Girl thread. You, abhi, and I are almost having an identical discussion at this point.

Quite frankly, I don't know where else to take this. I don't want to run in a circles for another 4 pages.

abhilegend

Originally posted by StyleTime
She put an image of Darkseid and his contempt into the Servant's head. The rest, I don't know, magic is crazy. Seems like he was so utterly convinced of Darkseid's hatred that he lost it and got consumed. I wouldn't really call it reality warping.

Belongs in the same boat as Xavier battling Phoenix on all planes of reality. Sounds great and such, but it's ultimately left up to however much weight you personally want to put into it.

Now, who is disliking, huh?

Nice fanfiction BTW. I take you have no way to lowball it so why not just make shit up.

There are only three planes of reality in marvel, Physical, Mental and Soul.

And even then Xavier would've lost if not for Jean helping him.

Zack M

Yeah, Saturn Queen owned MM and he's pretty much done it all in terms of TP. Shows how powerful Irma is.

meep-meep

Originally posted by abhilegend
There only three planes of reality in marvel, Physical, Mental and Soul.

Time? You are just as bad as Baz.

abhilegend

Originally posted by meep-meep
Time? You are just as bad as Baz.
ermm

It's explicitly stated that there are only three planes of reality. We are not talking about space time continuum.

MrMind

Originally posted by abhilegend
ermm

I started as an X men fan.

Wrong on both counts. It was main earth J'onn who was killed earlier by Saturn Queen and then brought back.

Except kill J'onn.

If that's your only card here, I can brought up dozens of scenes for either Emma or Xavier where they look like dirt.

PF Emma couldn't even stop Thunderbolt Ross from hulking out when he has been explicitly stated to have no mental defenses.

Which one?

Because you don't want to see it.

Of course. Because you say so, eh?

No, it wasn't.

Imra wasn't standing in a room either. She had to scan entire multiverse for the Legions.

Imra doesn't go around controlling people because she is not a douchebag like Xavier or Emma.

But piss her off and she would straight up destroy beings with the power of Darkseid and Mordru.

And only you would think controlling a few people better than scanning entire multiverse.

And kill with it too.

Xavier can neither match her scope nor skill.

Show me Xavier drawing out subconscious of herald level characters by just a look.

And when they found a path, all of their power could do nothing to hyptonized people.

While Imra can straight up kick the ass of a being who could put entire planet in a trance.

A few people. Their combined power did nothing to hyptonized people of the planet.

thumb up

Rage.Of.Olympus

Xavier clears. He has the most trouble with Black on average. Saturn Girl gives him the most trouble occasionally.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Xavier can neither match her scope nor skill.

Smh.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Xavier clears. He has the most trouble with Black on average. Saturn Girl gives him the most trouble occasionally.

Smh.
Just because he made Thor his ***** does not mean he beats characters like Imra or Black.

Try to match this rage. I'll wait eagerly for your bullshit.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Mind you, universo put everyone on Earth asleep at once.

https://s33.postimg.cc/td6jofekb/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/etzen0t57/image.jpg

And Imra made him beg for his life.

https://s33.postimg.cc/l54m3x7dn/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/6yov8pby3/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/vf7136kej/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/4hd41g7h7/image.jpg

Remind me of the time Xavier had such a feat? Oh right, the last time everyone on Earth was asleep, he, Moondragon and Jean Grey combined couldn't undo it. Originally posted by abhilegend
ermm

Already posted several times. But here you go. Mindlinking across the multiverse.

http://i.imgur.com/2KitjJv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qON4WFu.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xe1hZQ1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bf1aV5K.jpg

Scanning the universe.

http://i.imgur.com/ZBUTXKc.jpg

Tapping into the thoughts of every single being in the universe.

https://s16.postimg.cc/kawvhwdfl/RCO037_1468998681.jpg https://s3.postimg.cc/ywp8skbsf/RCO038_1468998681.jpg

abhilegend

Or this.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Also she has literally turned a character with power of both Darkseid and Mordru to dust by his own thoughts turned into reality.

https://s33.postimg.cc/yohbewhy3/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/t0b0o0lbf/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/pgp2y7y17/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/6od7unwi3/image.jpg

That's beyond anything Xavier has ever shown, it's basically reality warping with telepathy.

Coincidentally, Dev-Em was stated to be actually a titanian who gave himself kryptonian powers by just wishing it.

https://s33.postimg.cc/aanmkwfcr/image.jpg

And Imra is even more powerful than him.

Zack M

I'd like to know why rage thinks Manchester >> Irma.

StyleTime

Originally posted by abhilegend
I started as an X men fan.

Wrong on both counts. It was main earth J'onn who was killed earlier by Saturn Queen and then brought back.

Except kill J'onn.

If that's your only card here, I can brought up dozens of scenes for either Emma or Xavier where they look like dirt.

PF Emma couldn't even stop Thunderbolt Ross from hulking out when he has been explicitly stated to have no mental defenses.

Neat.

Nah, alternate timeline where they intercept J'onn before he ever becomes the MMH we know. It was an ambush and we really have no idea where he was at mentally. Even if we throw all that out, it was a different Saturn Queen than the one that fought Imra. Imra fought teen Saturn Queen. Adult Saturn Queen is the one from the arc you're talking about. They aren't the same character.

Except they have plenty of victories to counteract that. Imra, with help, had her shot against an Emma-level telepath in Saturn Queen and she came up short. All her flashy scanning feats amounted to peanuts. Off the top of my head, she doesn't actually have a deep resume vs other telepaths, so we're forced to use this showing.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Of course. Because you say so, eh?

Imra wasn't standing in a room either. She had to scan entire multiverse for the Legions.

And only you would think controlling a few people better than scanning entire multiverse.

Because they weren't fighting...I didn't redraw the panels. That's what happened.

Dude, she was being amped by Lightning Lad plus the Legion Flight rings. And it was stated, repeatedly, this was all only possible because the tears in space opened to these other worlds. Imra didn't just reach out an scan the multiverse.
https://postimg.cc/image/wd7n17iaf/
https://postimg.cc/image/ldmfpmf0n/

I meant him stealing millions of minds, unaided, while weakened is > amped Imra standing at a Nexus and shouting "Help!" through a Legion Flight ring. It's not even the only time he's absorbed the psyches from a planet.
https://postimg.cc/image/up8hmcemv/
https://postimg.cc/image/pdtl1n7zr/

Originally posted by abhilegend

And when they found a path, all of their power could do nothing to hyptonized people.

While Imra can straight up kick the ass of a being who could put entire planet in a trance.

A few people. Their combined power did nothing to hyptonized people of the planet.
You're not listening.

They're an entire reality away battling the Magus. Of course their powers will be weakened by the time their projections reach their home reality's Earth.

How could you possibly believe this impacts the match in any way?

Zack M

So, one says it's an alternate MM, and one says it's not. Post the scans either way.

StyleTime

Originally posted by abhilegend
Now, who is disliking, huh?

Nice fanfiction BTW. I take you have no way to lowball it so why not just make shit up.

There are only three planes of reality in marvel, Physical, Mental and Soul.

And even then Xavier would've lost if not for Jean helping him.
I dislike using the sillier aspects of feats to make silly claims. I won't pretend you have to fight Xavier on infinite planes of existence to beat him. I think it's equally ridiculous to say Saturn Girl can warp reality.

But, I don't have to lowball it to the see the problems with it. Firstly, the Servant is not a telepath, so I see it as less relevant. And, as one of the previous pages shows, he wasn't at full power anyway.
https://postimg.cc/image/5j2y25dsn/

Take it up with Chris Claremont. He said "on all the infinite planes of existence."
https://postimg.cc/image/wdc8f82lz/

abhilegend

Originally posted by StyleTime
Neat.

Nah, alternate timeline where they intercept J'onn before he ever becomes the MMH we know. It was an ambush and we really have no idea where he was at mentally. Even if we throw all that out, it was a different Saturn Queen than the one that fought Imra. Imra fought teen Saturn Queen. Adult Saturn Queen is the one from the arc you're talking about. They aren't the same character.

It's not an alternate timeline. She intercepted J'onn when he was transported from Mars.

Saturn Queen was same character albeit from the future. Hence why she was brought to future with adult LOSH.

Yes, she does.

How did you determine Saturn Queen was Emma level? Scanning so many minds at once like Imra did is far beyond Xavier or Emma.

But I know why you dismiss it, because you can't counter it.

She stopped him from reading Mon El and he was unable to stop her.

The rings and Lightning Lad only helped widen the portals.

The tears led to other eras but she still had to shift through all the minds of every era in every timeline of the multiverse to connect to an infinite number of Legion.

It's a gargantuan feat, better than anything Xavier has ever done.

Right, except shifting through the mind of so many timelines is far beyond what Xavier did.

And the ring wasn't connecting her, it was she who did.

J'onn has captured the thoughts of everyone on Earth. From Mars.

http://imgur.com/a/Zlt3G

Xavier is hardly unique in that regard.

Not when they had a conduit in form of Sleepwalker.

Imra defeated a hypnotist who put everyone on Earth in moments and freed everyone.

Xavier couldn't do that even with help.

abhilegend

Originally posted by StyleTime
I dislike using the sillier aspects of feats to make silly claims. I won't pretend you have to fight Xavier on infinite planes of existence to beat him. I think it's equally ridiculous to say Saturn Girl can warp reality.

How do you explain Dev Em turning himself into a kryptonian by wishing it?

This Servant had the power of Darkseid and Darkseid could enslave 3 billion daxamites at once. Mordru himself is a formidable telepath.

Heck, even Enchantress has made Xavier her ***** and Mordru is several tiers above her in power.

And would've lost. So meh anyway.

cdtm

Originally posted by RadZoa
TELEPATHY ONLY

R1 Xavier vs Saturn Girl
Saturn Girl wins, with ease.

R2 Xavier vs Martian
Martian Manhunter wins, with ease.

R3 Xavier vs Miss Martian
Miss Martian wins, with ease.

R4 Xavier vs Manchester Black
Manchester Black wins, with ease.

cdtm

Originally posted by StyleTime
Any rests in between rounds? Or is it instant tagging in when someone goes down?

Doesn't matter. He could have a years rest between match's, there isn't a single character here he can match.

Martians have an entire ancient culture of mental martial arts. And J'onz has feats Xavier requires Cerebro for.

And Black.. Gimmie a break. Supermans resisted TP from a Brainiac who mind whammy'd everyone on Earth from another universe. Black, he cuts through his resistance like nothing. He's waaay above Xaviers pay grade.

MrMind

Originally posted by krisblaze
You'll take Xavier over Black but not MMH?

lmao at these kids.
x-men characters are generally overrated on the board. they are usually one dimensional glass canons. the only reason I gave the bald disable douchebag win over miss martian was only because it's TP battle only
If it's no rule fight any one of them would smoke him in 20 seconds

Zack M

I used to think Marvel had the clear advantage in the tp department, both versatility and power, but I'm not sure anymore.

StyleTime

Figured I'd isolate this issue, as we really need to get on the same page here.
Originally posted by Zack M
So, one says it's an alternate MM, and one says it's not. Post the scans either way.
They mention it about a bajillion times that they altered the timeline. Saturn Queen mentions it on two separate occasions here.
https://postimg.cc/image/tj3peinhn/
https://postimg.cc/image/5que2n5xn/

A world where Lightning Lord murders Clark's parents and Cosmic King kills the murderer of Bruce's parents before adopting them both is clearly not the mainstream timeline. They even talk about changing the events during all that.
https://postimg.cc/image/hfydqup97/
https://postimg.cc/image/yt8o5qn57/
https://postimg.cc/image/fo5evznwr/

I mean, they killed the Justice League members before they ever even became heroes, and Aquaman's parents never conceived him. This is clearly/ a different timeline guys.
Originally posted by abhilegend
It's not an alternate timeline. She intercepted J'onn when he was transported from Mars.

Saturn Queen was same character albeit from the future. Hence why she was brought to future with adult LOSH.

It 100% is an alternate timeline. They had already killed Superman's parents and adopted Bruce, setting into motion the new timeline. They mention it repeatedly, but here's scans I guess.
https://postimg.cc/image/ttb7xhzff/
https://postimg.cc/image/eklajqdgr/

"Three villains from the future....traveled into the past and changed the timeline."

Saturn Queen I, https://postimg.cc/image/8rb8j4z8b/ , is from the Adult Legion's time though. She fought them, was freed by Superman, and went to Titan to reform her ways before coming back to attack the timeline later.

Saturn Queen II, https://postimg.cc/image/je51okf3f/ , was locked up on Takron-Galtros after fighting the teen LSH. She got out during the Crisis stuff, and later fought Saturn Girl. These two Queens have different histories and are alternate versions of each other.

StyleTime

Originally posted by abhilegend

Yes, she does.

How did you determine Saturn Queen was Emma level? Scanning so many minds at once like Imra did is far beyond Xavier or Emma.

But I know why you dismiss it, because you can't counter it.
She doesn't though.

Because she hasn't done anything Emma hasn't done or exceeded?

Two Saturn Girls could barely take on one Saturn Queen without the feats of Emma. And, again, scanning feats amounted to nothing. Meanwhile, Xavier mind controls, not scans, controls millions of minds while weakened. Yes, his is more impressive.
Originally posted by abhilegend

She stopped him from reading Mon El and he was unable to stop her.

The rings and Lightning Lad only helped widen the portals.

The tears led to other eras but she still had to shift through all the minds of every era in every timeline of the multiverse to connect to an infinite number of Legion.

It's a gargantuan feat, better than anything Xavier has ever done.

He didn't try to stop her.

The dialogue explicitly states Lighting Lad is amping up the communication abilities of the rings so they can send a distress signal for Imra to use. Then, Cosmic Boy says, "You're on the air, Im." She's clearly broadcasting in conjunction with the rings.

Cosmic Boy opened the portals wider himself. No rings involved.

Nope. Get back to me when she beats someone.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Right, except shifting through the mind of so many timelines is far beyond what Xavier did.

J'onn has captured the thoughts of everyone on Earth. From Mars.

http://imgur.com/a/Zlt3G

Xavier is hardly unique in that regard.
It might have been, were she not being amped and provided a gateway directly to all them. Xavier reached out, while weakened, and straight up stole the psyches of at least as many people.

I didn't say Xavier was unique in that regard. I said Saturn Girl has failed to replicate that. Xavier has done it while being off planet as well.
https://postimg.cc/image/ixofg66iz/

Although, you already knew that, since we're having the same discussion over again.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Not when they had a conduit in form of Sleepwalker.

Imra defeated a hypnotist who put everyone on Earth in moments and freed everyone.

Xavier couldn't do that even with help.
They had to convince him to allow them to do that, and they were still an entire reality removed from him while fighting Magus. There is no telling how diminished their signal was. This is silly.

Imra didn't just sit down and mentally emancipate the planet. She used Universo's medallion to amp, and it didn't even give a time frame for when the rest of the planet was released.

And she had the advantage of being physically on the planet....

StyleTime

Originally posted by abhilegend
How do you explain Dev Em turning himself into a kryptonian by wishing it?

This Servant had the power of Darkseid and Darkseid could enslave 3 billion daxamites at once. Mordru himself is a formidable telepath.

Heck, even Enchantress has made Xavier her ***** and Mordru is several tiers above her in power.

And would've lost. So meh anyway.
I could have sworn that was out of continuity.

Yet, he never displayed all that, and was weakened by the time Imra assaulted him.

Enchantress hasn't made Xavier her *****, but she can keep people out pretty reliably, including folks like Red Onslaught. She'd block anyone here too.

Well, we agree he would've lost. I brought it up for different reasons though.

Alas, I don't know how much longer I'm going to keep this up. Most of this is literally the same thing we've already talked about, and I'm not really game for pages upon pages of restating stuff. Especially since it's basically just us talking now.

abhilegend

Originally posted by StyleTime
Figured I'd isolate this issue, as we really need to get on the same page here.

They mention it about a bajillion times that they altered the timeline. Saturn Queen mentions it on two separate occasions here.
https://postimg.cc/image/tj3peinhn/
https://postimg.cc/image/5que2n5xn/

A world where Lightning Lord murders Clark's parents and Cosmic King kills the murderer of Bruce's parents before adopting them both is clearly not the mainstream timeline. They even talk about changing the events during all that.
https://postimg.cc/image/hfydqup97/
https://postimg.cc/image/yt8o5qn57/
https://postimg.cc/image/fo5evznwr/

I mean, they killed the Justice League members before they ever even became heroes, and Aquaman's parents never conceived him. This is clearly/ a different timeline guys.

It 100% is an alternate timeline. They had already killed Superman's parents and adopted Bruce, setting into motion the new timeline. They mention it repeatedly, but here's scans I guess.
https://postimg.cc/image/ttb7xhzff/
https://postimg.cc/image/eklajqdgr/

"Three villains from the future....traveled into the past and changed the timeline."

Saturn Queen I, https://postimg.cc/image/8rb8j4z8b/ , is from the Adult Legion's time though. She fought them, was freed by Superman, and went to Titan to reform her ways before coming back to attack the timeline later.

Saturn Queen II, https://postimg.cc/image/je51okf3f/ , was locked up on Takron-Galtros after fighting the teen LSH. She got out during the Crisis stuff, and later fought Saturn Girl. These two Queens have different histories and are alternate versions of each other.
The history was changed by Superman and Batman. The same Saturn Queen appeared in Supergirl later as well.

https://s33.postimg.cc/lpq2pkqt7/image.jpg

And the fact that adult versions of the LOSH were shown to be their enemies.

https://s33.postimg.cc/3zoe4rifv/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/8lkid4bor/image.jpg

This is the same character that fought Saturn Girl but from future.

abhilegend

Originally posted by StyleTime
She doesn't though.

Because she hasn't done anything Emma hasn't done or exceeded?

Fighting two Saturn Girls at once? Just one Saturn Girl defeated Dr Psycho casually who can go toe to toe with J'onn easily.

https://s33.postimg.cc/el89gm457/RCO016.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/mdyx8lhu3/RCO017.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/62ytcb07f/RCO018.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/9mkr24amz/RCO019_w.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/9mkr24q2j/RCO020.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/fnifz7kej/RCO021.jpg

Xavier didn't control millions of minds, he took their thoughts and projected them.

https://m.imgur.com/a/7Q9cV

J'onn and Earth 247 Saturn Girl linked entire universe at once.

https://s33.postimg.cc/s0zvjlze3/image.jpg

And channeled all the destructive energy through new Genesis and Apokolips to compress Godwave itself.

https://s33.postimg.cc/aay6yhti3/image.jpg

He couldn't.

But she still had to go through all the minds of Legion of multiverse.

That's why she says "So many minds".

Eh?

Already did.

Xavier wasn't weakened. In fact, he pushed past all his limitations to just link every human on Earth.

J'onn can do it casually.

That was just a small meeting of several alien races. It wasn't the whole planet.

They had also been amped by Galactus. So no, it wasn't a weak signal which hindered them.

She only used the medallion to focus it. Xavier was also amped by Galactus and couldn't do anything against it.

Imra did what Xavier couldn't, even with help.

And Xavier was amped. And had mystics helping him.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-eBUbKcmG5w8/VLU3Dpx_udI/AAAAAAAHXuA/AxvPiIZ9iyQ/s1600/p5_5.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-vk8d1IYcuYA/VLU3D28-u-I/AAAAAAAHXuw/elKcqBVgyIM/s1600/p5_6.jpg

abhilegend

Originally posted by StyleTime
I could have sworn that was out of continuity.

That version of Dev Em was revealed as an imposter.

So suddenly Darkseid's power no longer includes telepathy? The servant was also amped on Mordru's magic.

So she blocked Xaviers power twice and would do to anyone here because you say so?

It's because you can't look beyond your bias.

StyleTime

Originally posted by abhilegend
The history was changed by Superman and Batman. The same Saturn Queen appeared in Supergirl later as well.

https://s33.postimg.cc/lpq2pkqt7/image.jpg

And the fact that adult versions of the LOSH were shown to be their enemies.

https://s33.postimg.cc/3zoe4rifv/image.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/8lkid4bor/image.jpg

This is the same character that fought Saturn Girl but from future.
Batman and Superman were working to revert the change. The original change is from Saturn Queen and co. altering things when they killed Supes's parents.

You're right, Saturn Queen I(the adult) appeared in those. She's not just from the future, she's from a different reality that got destroyed. That's why she's trying to alter this one.

Saturn Queen II was still locked in space prison, and wasn't freed until much later. She's the one who fought Imra.
https://postimg.cc/image/mnucynt2v/
https://postimg.cc/image/6pln8j6kn/

Two different histories, and they don't even look alike.

StyleTime

Originally posted by abhilegend
Fighting two Saturn Girls at once? Just one Saturn Girl defeated Dr Psycho casually who can go toe to toe with J'onn easily.

https://s33.postimg.cc/el89gm457/RCO016.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/mdyx8lhu3/RCO017.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/62ytcb07f/RCO018.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/9mkr24amz/RCO019_w.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/9mkr24q2j/RCO020.jpg https://s33.postimg.cc/fnifz7kej/RCO021.jpg

Right, and I've given Saturn Queen her credit. In New 52?
Originally posted by abhilegend

Xavier didn't control millions of minds, he took their thoughts and projected them.

https://m.imgur.com/a/7Q9cV

J'onn and Earth 247 Saturn Girl linked entire universe at once.

https://s33.postimg.cc/s0zvjlze3/image.jpg

That isn't indicated anywhere, and the scans of the actual event don't say that either.

Well, you likely know already what I'm going to say here. That was only possible because of the Source which, even moreso than Saturn Girl Prime's feat, removed the burden of physical proximity altogether. It would otherwise be impossible, as Darkseid and Superman pointed out. Furthermore, they were linking to other telepaths, which further strengthened the link.
https://postimg.cc/image/cgl0e014n/

Originally posted by abhilegend

He couldn't.

But she still had to go through all the minds of Legion of multiverse.

That's why she says "So many minds".

Already did.

He didn't try.

Right, she went through them with an amp. It can still be a lot of minds in spite of that.

With Earth 247? Different Saturn Girl than the one we've been discussing. She's got a whole other set of problems that could take up an entire thread, and forfeits Saturn Girl Prime's range, which you're so keen on.
Originally posted by abhilegend

Xavier wasn't weakened. In fact, he pushed past all his limitations to just link every human on Earth. He stated it regardless.

J'onn can do it casually.

That was just a small meeting of several alien races. It wasn't the whole planet.

You can be weakened and still push past your limits. They aren't mutually exclusive. He states he isn't at full strength.
https://postimg.cc/image/bfkromk2f/

Several galaxies worth, yes. That's a least as many Legionnaires as Imra dealt with. Regardless, discard it. Xavier channeled the Skrull Homeworld while astral projecting. 8 Billion people as specified in the issue.
https://postimg.cc/image/vpi33sg2f/

Originally posted by abhilegend
They had also been amped by Galactus. So no, it wasn't a weak signal which hindered them.

She only used the medallion to focus it. Xavier was also amped by Galactus and couldn't do anything against it.

Imra did what Xavier couldn't, even with help.

And Xavier was amped. And had mystics helping him.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-eBUbKcmG5w8/VLU3Dpx_udI/AAAAAAAHXuA/AxvPiIZ9iyQ/s1600/p5_5.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-vk8d1IYcuYA/VLU3D28-u-I/AAAAAAAHXuw/elKcqBVgyIM/s1600/p5_6.jpg
Or the signal just required that much power to even get there? Again, they are in another reality. You're assuming they reached Earth at full strength when it's not indicated anywhere.

She explicitly states she's combining her powers with the medallion dude. And she was physically on the planet. Xavier wasn't even in the same reality. These two situations are completely unrelated.

StyleTime

Originally posted by abhilegend
That version of Dev Em was revealed as an imposter.

So suddenly Darkseid's power no longer includes telepathy? The servant was also amped on Mordru's magic.

So she blocked Xaviers power twice and would do to anyone here because you say so?

It's because you can't look beyond your bias.
I worded that improperly I guess. Was Dev Ems origins actually presented like that in comic? I thought they included that encylopedia excerpt because, at the time, Superman was supposed to be the only Kryptonian. It's editorial and doesn't actually reflect on Imra since she didn't do that. We've seen less powerful telepaths pull off specific tricks that folks stronger than them couldn't.

I'm saying the servant demonstrated it. Then was weakened before Imra attacked.

Yeah, totally.

And this is why you're our loveable abhi.

abhilegend

Originally posted by StyleTime
Batman and Superman were working to revert the change. The original change is from Saturn Queen and co. altering things when they killed Supes's parents.

You're right, Saturn Queen I(the adult) appeared in those. She's not just from the future, she's from a different reality that got destroyed. That's why she's trying to alter this one.

She is from future of original LOSH. That version of LOSH was revealed in Lightning Saga.

You're still not getting it. There isn't any other version of Saturn Queen.

abhilegend

Originally posted by StyleTime
Right, and I've given Saturn Queen her credit. In New 52?

No, post crisis Psycho.

It was stated clearly, what are you talking about? They had to channel the mental energies through New Genesis and Apokolips.

Physical proximity or no, linking entire universe? Channeling all that which was done by J'onn and Saturn Girl only?

Xavier can only dream about such a showing.

The ring didn't amp her mental power. It only communicated with other rings.

For majority of time Earth 247 Imra had mental blocks on her telepathy. So no, she doesn't has that many issues.

What?

Not in the retelling of the scene he didn't. It also retconned his feat as linking of the minds rather than stealing minds.

Good feat for him. Still dwarfed by what J'onn and Imra did though.

They took a shortcut by using Sleepwalker as a conduit which bypassed the physical boundaries.

And yet failed.

Xavier was amped with the Galactus machine too.

Sleepwalker helped in that regard. Physical distance did not matter then.

abhilegend

Originally posted by StyleTime
I worded that improperly I guess. Was Dev Ems origins actually presented like that in comic? I thought they included that encylopedia excerpt because, at the time, Superman was supposed to be the only Kryptonian. It's editorial and doesn't actually reflect on Imra since she didn't do that. We've seen less powerful telepaths pull off specific tricks that folks stronger than them couldn't.

It was mentioned in a line in a comic AFAIK.

I'm not aware of any psychic in marvel changing their DNA by just wishing it. Rachel did but that was TK and not just telepathy.

Does that somehow negates the fact that she literally turned him into dust? Which psychic in marvel can claim that?

Well Imra turned someone more powerful than Amora into dust.

So there's that.
ermm

StyleTime

Well abhi, it's been a time and a half, but I just don't have the energy. Progress is nowhere in sight, and the introduction of Earth 247 Saturn Girl isn't going to help, as I suspect she will cause just as much disagreement between us. I'm calling it quits here.

If you want to believe Imra warps reality and the Saturn Queens are the same person, it's your right as a KMC citizen sir. thumb up

Originally posted by abhilegend
It was mentioned in a line in a comic AFAIK.

I'm not aware of any psychic in marvel changing their DNA by just wishing it. Rachel did but that was TK and not just telepathy.
This piqued my curiosity though, because I can't think of an example either off the top of my head.

Teen Jean psychically reconstructed a new body after her body was destroyed. I would have suggested this, but it got retconned into her using TK later on.
https://postimg.cc/image/cxnedw5sb/
https://postimg.cc/image/ws9g00spn/

Xavier and Shadow King have healed their physical bodies psychically. Xavier is in Fantomex's body currently, so that is why he looks different.
https://postimg.cc/image/skenrg6rf/
https://postimg.cc/image/bjvrivom3/
https://postimg.cc/image/4gnw39qwb/

Other than that, Adult Jean did retain her TK after mindswapping into Emma's body. Doesn't mention DNA changing, but it's hard to account for it otherwise. At the very least, it does appear high order telepaths can affect physical bodies in some way. Dev Em's thing is a bit specific though, and as I said, seemed like an editorial band-aid more than anything, as it's not mentioned in a comic.

StyleTime

Originally posted by StyleTime
Well abhi, it's been a time and a half, but I just don't have the energy. Progress is nowhere in sight, and the introduction of Earth 247 Saturn Girl isn't going to help, as I suspect she will cause just as much disagreement between us. I'm calling it quits here.

If you want to believe Imra warps reality and the Saturn Queens are the same person, it's your right as a KMC citizen sir. thumb up

This piqued my curiosity though, because I can't think of an example either off the top of my head.

Teen Jean psychically reconstructed a new body after her body was destroyed. I would have suggested this, but it got retconned into her using TK later on.
https://postimg.cc/image/cxnedw5sb/
https://postimg.cc/image/ws9g00spn/

Xavier and Shadow King have healed their physical bodies psychically. Xavier is in Fantomex's body currently, so that is why he looks different.
https://postimg.cc/image/skenrg6rf/
https://postimg.cc/image/bjvrivom3/
https://postimg.cc/image/4gnw39qwb/

Other than that, Adult Jean did retain her TK after mindswapping into Emma's body. Doesn't mention DNA changing, but it's hard to account for it otherwise. At the very least, it does appear high order telepaths can affect physical bodies in some way. Dev Em's thing is a bit specific though, and as I said, seemed like an editorial band-aid more than anything, as it's not mentioned in a comic.
The Jean scans.
https://postimg.cc/image/e79jw4itj/
https://postimg.cc/image/he43frazb/
https://postimg.cc/image/s0xwl6quf/

Zack M

Who is that in your avatar, Style?

Smurph

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm not aware of any psychic in marvel changing their DNA by just wishing it. Rachel did but that was TK and not just telepathy.
This is basically what the Mummudrai do. They might be considered a special case though.

StyleTime

Originally posted by Zack M
Who is that in your avatar, Style?
Rachel possessed by Elias Bogan.
Originally posted by Smurph
This is basically what the Mummudrai do. They might be considered a special case though.
thumb up

Good one. I'm not sure how I forgot about Cassandra Nova.

abhilegend

This piqued my curiosity though, because I can't think of an example either off the top of my head.

Teen Jean psychically reconstructed a new body after her body was destroyed. I would have suggested this, but it got retconned into her using TK later on.
https://postimg.cc/image/cxnedw5sb/
https://postimg.cc/image/ws9g00spn/

Xavier and Shadow King have healed their physical bodies psychically. Xavier is in Fantomex's body currently, so that is why he looks different.
https://postimg.cc/image/skenrg6rf/
https://postimg.cc/image/bjvrivom3/
https://postimg.cc/image/4gnw39qwb/

Other than that, Adult Jean did retain her TK after mindswapping into Emma's body. Doesn't mention DNA changing, but it's hard to account for it otherwise. At the very least, it does appear high order telepaths can affect physical bodies in some way. Dev Em's thing is a bit specific though, and as I said, seemed like an editorial band-aid more than anything, as it's not mentioned in a comic. Originally posted by StyleTime
The Jean scans.
https://postimg.cc/image/e79jw4itj/
https://postimg.cc/image/he43frazb/
https://postimg.cc/image/s0xwl6quf/
Alright, let's agree to disagree.

Nice scans though. Originally posted by Smurph
This is basically what the Mummudrai do. They might be considered a special case though.
I'm not sure mummdrai are psychic in nature or just copy the DNA of the fetus they copy.

That was a weird retcon.