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Darth Bane

My vote for now will be for Luke Skywalker.

luke

Yeah, Luke.

Edit: Good to see you back, skybro

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Darth Bane I would be intrigued to hear an argument in favour of Darth Bane. He has perhaps the greatest combat speed feat in all of Star Wars.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
I would be intrigued to hear an argument in favour of Darth Bane. He has perhaps the greatest combat speed feat in all of Star Wars. Which is?

I'll vote for Luke too, but I thought about Sidious for moment.

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Which is? You must read more before taking part in these debates. I am not here to educate you.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
You must read more before taking part in these debates. I am not here to educate you. Ignoring the question?

If you must know, Darth Bane sheltered himself from every single droplet of rain sent his way by a rainstorm for several minutes, using not an umbrella, but rather his own lightsaber.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
If you must know, Darth Bane sheltered himself from every single droplet of rain sent his way by a rainstorm for several minutes, using not an umbrella, but rather his own lightsaber. Yes, and he would return from the rain dry, I do indeed know of this feat.

But I do not think it was simply several minutes, rather an hour or two.

I bet Tulak Hord was a faster duelist though.

I guess if Sidious got the #1 spot, Luke gets my vote for #2.

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Yes, and he would return from the rain dry, I do indeed know of this feat.

But I do not think it was simply several minutes, rather an hour or two.

I bet Tulak Hord was a faster duelist though. You would do well to back up this assertion with a citation of evidence. If you can convince me Tulak Hord is deserving of the #2 spot, I will submit to your greater authority on this matter.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
You would do well to back up this assertion with a citation of evidence. If you can convince me Tulak Hord is deserving of the #2 spot, I will submit to your greater authority on this matter. What?

I am not voting Tulak Hord as two, I was just sayin that he most likely is faster than Bane.

Do you believe that Darth Bane can defeat Tulak Hord?

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
What?

I am not voting Tulak Hord as two, I was just sayin that he most likely is faster than Bane.

Do you believe that Darth Bane can defeat Tulak Hord? I don't believe Hord has demonstrated the necessary reaction time to deal with Bane's speed; he likely dies in under a second.

Lucus Skywalker.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
He didn't tho.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/yok.gif

Luke.

Valkorion.

Peak Valkorion >> Outlander/Unchained Vaylin/Arcann >> Outlander > Unchained Vaylin >>> KOTET Chapter 9 Arcann <~ Chained Vaylin > Spirit Valkorion >>>>> Ziostiate ~ killing and consuming all life on Ziost.


Essentially, we see that in KOTET Chapter 9, Outlander w/OP holocron + Unchained Vaylin + Redeemed Arcann are utterly overpowered when Valkorion says, "Enough!", snatches the holocron, crushes it, forces the rushing Vaylin and Arcann into submission, each with a casual gesture, then blasting the Outlander with TK and assaulting him with TP. Furthermore, we see that Valkorion is casually able to force Unchained Vaylin to submit to him with TP, and even upon the Outlander's insistence to resist, Valkorion simply applies a bit more pressure, and Vaylin is back under his control. Valkorion could even rejuvenate Vaylin's spirit seemingly indefinitely, thus forcing the Outlander to free her via the holocron. If we assume some degree of relativity between Valkorion's spirit utterly ravaging the trio of Arcann/Vaylin/Outlander w/holocron's spirits and how their physical forms, we can deduce that Peak Valkorion >> Unchained Vaylin/Outlander w/holocron/Redeemed Arcann.

Obviously, the trio collectively would be vastly superior to any of them individually. This leads us to the Outlander, who proved his superiority to Unchained Vaylin by:

a: tanking her final force repulse, essentially walking through it and gutting Vaylin through her force shield.

b: directly defeating Unchained Vaylin's spirit in combat.

This leads us to Unchained Vaylin, whose powers are infinitely greater than those of Chained Vaylin, given that prior to becoming fully Unchained, while undergoing the transformation, her power is stated to be "racing out of control," and she essentially goes from being utterly overwhelmed by and struggling immensely with the 6 sun generators, to completely overpowering them upon becoming Unchained, (and proceeding to casually blow up the whole BRAIN experiment from orbit, to boot). Thus, Unchained Vaylin >>> Chained Vaylin.

Even Chained Vaylin has absurd power curves, though. She goes from being frozen in Valk's time stop, (one where Valk, ironically, mentions how Vaylin's power grows exponentially, and that if he doesn't kill her efficiently, he will die). Vaylin of course completely stomps the Outlander, thus forcing Valkorion to intervene with his time stop. But this time, literally 5 minutes after Valk had Vaylin froze and warned the Outlander about her exponential power growth, Vaylin completely overpowered the time stop in mere seconds. This caused the Outlander to note that Vaylin was even stronger than Valkorion, and the Immortal Emperor had to resort to using her conditioning fashioned by years of rituals on a void meant to "limit her growing power."

As mentioned in the first Reactivation, Spirit Valkorion >>>>> Vitiate as of when he consumed all life on Ziost. Essentially, the gap between Vitiate from the beginning of the Revanite War and Vitiate right before he consumed Ziost is microbial compared to the gap between Spirit Valkorion and Vitiate right before he consumed Ziost. I've also already spoken for the power Ziostiate wields, from the beginning, middle, and end of Ziost.

So, yeah...Peak Valkorion >> Outlander/Unchained Vaylin/Arcann >> Outlander > Unchained Vaylin >>> KOTET Chapter 9 Arcann <~ Chained Vaylin > Spirit Valkorion >>>>> Ziostiate ~ killing and consuming all life on Ziost.

lol @ taking this top 10 seriously

Luke

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion.

Peak Valkorion >> Outlander/Unchained Vaylin/Arcann >> Outlander > Unchained Vaylin >>> KOTET Chapter 9 Arcann <~ Chained Vaylin > Spirit Valkorion >>>>> Ziostiate ~ killing and consuming all life on Ziost.


Essentially, we see that in KOTET Chapter 9, Outlander w/OP holocron + Unchained Vaylin + Redeemed Arcann are utterly overpowered when Valkorion says, "Enough!", snatches the holocron, crushes it, forces the rushing Vaylin and Arcann into submission, each with a casual gesture, then blasting the Outlander with TK and assaulting him with TP. Furthermore, we see that Valkorion is casually able to force Unchained Vaylin to submit to him with TP, and even upon the Outlander's insistence to resist, Valkorion simply applies a bit more pressure, and Vaylin is back under his control. Valkorion could even rejuvenate Vaylin's spirit seemingly indefinitely, thus forcing the Outlander to free her via the holocron. If we assume some degree of relativity between Valkorion's spirit utterly ravaging the trio of Arcann/Vaylin/Outlander w/holocron's spirits and how their physical forms, we can deduce that Peak Valkorion >> Unchained Vaylin/Outlander w/holocron/Redeemed Arcann.

Obviously, the trio collectively would be vastly superior to any of them individually. This leads us to the Outlander, who proved his superiority to Unchained Vaylin by:

a: tanking her final force repulse, essentially walking through it and gutting Vaylin through her force shield.

b: directly defeating Unchained Vaylin's spirit in combat.

This leads us to Unchained Vaylin, whose powers are infinitely greater than those of Chained Vaylin, given that prior to becoming fully Unchained, while undergoing the transformation, her power is stated to be "racing out of control," and she essentially goes from being utterly overwhelmed by and struggling immensely with the 6 sun generators, to completely overpowering them upon becoming Unchained, (and proceeding to casually blow up the whole BRAIN experiment from orbit, to boot). Thus, Unchained Vaylin >>> Chained Vaylin.

Even Chained Vaylin has absurd power curves, though. She goes from being frozen in Valk's time stop, (one where Valk, ironically, mentions how Vaylin's power grows exponentially, and that if he doesn't kill her efficiently, he will die). Vaylin of course completely stomps the Outlander, thus forcing Valkorion to intervene with his time stop. But this time, literally 5 minutes after Valk had Vaylin froze and warned the Outlander about her exponential power growth, Vaylin completely overpowered the time stop in mere seconds. This caused the Outlander to note that Vaylin was even stronger than Valkorion, and the Immortal Emperor had to resort to using her conditioning fashioned by years of rituals on a void meant to "limit her growing power."

As mentioned in the first Reactivation, Spirit Valkorion >>>>> Vitiate as of when he consumed all life on Ziost. Essentially, the gap between Vitiate from the beginning of the Revanite War and Vitiate right before he consumed Ziost is microbial compared to the gap between Spirit Valkorion and Vitiate right before he consumed Ziost. I've also already spoken for the power Ziostiate wields, from the beginning, middle, and end of Ziost.

So, yeah...Peak Valkorion >> Outlander/Unchained Vaylin/Arcann >> Outlander > Unchained Vaylin >>> KOTET Chapter 9 Arcann <~ Chained Vaylin > Spirit Valkorion >>>>> Ziostiate ~ killing and consuming all life on Ziost.



Tenebrae is undebatably the strongest here.

Valk.

Onimi dies.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Spirit Valkorion >>>>> Ziostiate

I don't think this is clear. Ziostiate was way beyond base spirit Vitiate thanks to absorbing stuff, plus he had a nexus, so it isn't obvious that he would be worse than spirit Valkorion, as Valkorion had all that absorbed energy minus the nexus but now he's weaker due to being a spirit.

It's also unclear whether massive scaling above Ziost beats some scaling above force storms, or astronomical scaling above Nihilus / PoD stuff / etc.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't think this is clear. Ziostiate was way beyond base spirit Vitiate thanks to absorbing stuff, plus he had a nexus, so it isn't obvious that he would be worse than spirit Valkorion, as Valkorion had all that absorbed energy minus the nexus but now he's weaker due to being a spirit.

Are you suggesting that the power Ziostiate absorbed prior to consuming the planet wasn't permanent? The whole point of Ziost was that Vitiate was accumulating power by consuming the spirits of those that died so that he could reach the level to consume the planet, thus growing even stronger. It's a constant growth of his personal power, not a temporary boost.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's also unclear whether massive scaling above Ziost beats some scaling above force storms, or astronomical scaling above Nihilus / PoD stuff / etc.

With Nihilus, I honestly don't think anyone should scale above a specific savant talent fueled by an unnatural, radical hunger we don't see anywhere else in the mythos, and with PoD, I'm not sure I really buy that Bane scales above Ambria or the planetary energy storm.

As for the force storms, I see Ziost as more impressive, especially in the sense that while DE Sidious' ultimate storm was his "full potency", Valkorion would grow vastly stronger after consuming Ziost.

None of which matters when baseline prime Tenebrae is far stronger than pre-Ziost ritual completion Tenebrae. Even as a spirit his strength would be much greater.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't think this is clear. Ziostiate was way beyond base spirit Vitiate thanks to absorbing stuff, plus he had a nexus,

-- which doesn't put him above base spirit Vitiate, lmao.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Are you suggesting that the power Ziostiate absorbed prior to consuming the planet wasn't permanent? The whole point of Ziost was that Vitiate was accumulating power by consuming the spirits of those that died so that he could reach the level to consume the planet, thus growing even stronger. It's a constant growth of his personal power, not a temporary boost.

Well, say:

base Vitiate = 100
spirit Vitiate = 20
spirit Vitiate + absorptions = 80
spirit Vitiate + absorptions + nexus = 110
Valkorion = 170
spirit Valkorion = 90

Is there a reason that couldn't be true? Idk how it works if Valkorion gets X power-up but then does turning into a spirit cut it by some fraction or something?

Valkorion is clearly above Ziostiate, but I'm not sure if you get this massive scaling where like Arcann is greater than him and can annihilate civilizations with the Force.



I suppose it depends on whether *only* the drain is powered by his hunger and whether it counts as part of his "power". Eh.




Well, I think consuming fleets of starships capable of turning planetary surfaces to molten slag is a greater destructive feat.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
-- which doesn't put him above base spirit Vitiate, lmao.

What?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
What?
Why did you edit your post to saying "You don't know because of the nexus" to "What?" when you clearly knew what I said originally, lmao?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well, say:

base Vitiate = 100
spirit Vitiate = 20
spirit Vitiate + absorptions = 80
spirit Vitiate + absorptions + nexus = 110
Valkorion = 170
spirit Valkorion = 90

Is there a reason that couldn't be true?

The nexus did so little that Vitiate could only possess a small amount of people when he arrived, then gradually accumulated power from that, lmao.

If the nexus only lets him possess a few people, then it's utterly negligible to the power needed to cleanse a planet and affect an outer core, regardless if you don't think the latter is end-all, be-all impressive.

And Vitiate draining the dead from a single city is a fraction of draining an entire planet, eight-thousand Sith Lords, and all the fauna and flora, so it's clear spirit Vitiate + absorptions + nexus is a fraction of base spirit Vitiate.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
The nexus did so little that Vitiate could only possess a small amount of people when he arrived, then gradually accumulated power from that, lmao.

You don't know how many people base Vitiate can possess in that timeframe.



I dunno whether nexuses are primarily additive, multiplicative, or something else.



Another thing to note is that modest differences in Force power seem to translate into enormous gaps in feats - you presumably don't think Dooku could pull even a tiny fraction of Ziost, but do you think Valkorion could solo one billion Dooku's?

Anyway, aside from the fact that force storms are way more destructive, they have a few more advantages:

- they're done on short notice, while we have no idea how long it takes Valkorion to charge up the death wave

- they can teleport entire fleets of warships across the galaxy

- that the death wave "corrupted" the Force in an almost Nathema-like fashion makes me suspicious of how ritualistic it was

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Why did you edit your post to saying "You don't know because of the nexus" to "What?" when you clearly knew what I said originally, lmao?

Which didn't put who above base spirit Vitiate? Did you mean base Vitiate?

I explain most of this in my post in Azronger. I don't know if you've read it or not, but I'll try to briefly summarize.

Unchained Vaylin can one-shot spirit Valkorion, who in turn can one-shot spirit unchained Vaylin, demonstrating an insta-kill gap between a physical body and a spirit. Your argument is that spirit Vitiate breached that gap by being on a dark side nexus and draining some of the life force from a city. Maybe, although you're also underestimating how drastically weakened Vitiate was on Ziost compared to his normal spirit state.

Vitiate explicitly consumed Nathema, the eight-thousand Sith Lords, an end-all, be-all dark side nexus, etc. into his essence, hence how he carries that power from Voice to Voice. Whatever boost Vitiate received from being in the presence of a dark side nexus and draining some of a city is simply far less than what his spirit previously held before the Hero of Tython brought him to "the brink of annihilation."

Add on the other gap, and it's clear physical Vitiate is far more powerful than the Vitiate that consumed Ziost.



Based on the telepathic domination feats of the Dread Masters and Lord Vivicar, it's evident physical Vitiate can do far more.

Consider that, when weakened spirit Vitiate first came to Ziost, he was incapable of dominating the Imperial outpost. Theron Shan merely received trickled reports of soldiers turning on civilian populations. Even once Lana Beniko notified the Outlander of what was happening, Vitiate still had yet to take over the outpost. If the nexus amp itself was literally stronger than spirit Vitiate entirely like you proposed, you'd expect Vitiate strolling in with far more potent powers, regardless if nexus amps are proportional. Moreover, the fact they only mention the nexus once in the entire expansion is indicative that the entire feat isn't dependent on it, lol.

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/5395365-the+eclipse+is+a+dark+side+nexus.png

Also, it seems that the Eclipse is a far more potent dark side nexus, which Tom Veitch has apparently explicitly confirmed in a separate interview. Are we also now going to call into question the entirety of Force storms because Sidious does them on a dark side nexus?



That's a polar extreme to propose "modest differences" on one side and the alternative to be "one billion Dooku's," lmao.



It's a short amount of time, albeit not as short as the Force storms.



Can't the Aing-Ti do that also?



The effects on the Force are unfathomably different. This borders on an Alex Jones conspiracy theory.

-

Originally posted by Jaggarath
https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/5395365-the+eclipse+is+a+dark+side+nexus.png

Also, it seems that the Eclipse is a far more potent dark side nexus, which Tom Veitch has apparently explicitly confirmed in a separate interview. Are we also now going to call into question the entirety of Force storms because Sidious does them on a dark side nexus?

Where is this proof that the Eclipse itself is a dark side nexus?

https://image.ibb.co/hYqRFq/more-powerful-than-ever.png

https://image.ibb.co/ng93vq/sheev-dark-nexus.jpg

Given that Sheev is inside the ship, it seems pretty obviously referring to him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Where is this proof that the Eclipse itself is a dark side nexus?

https://image.ibb.co/hYqRFq/more-powerful-than-ever.png

https://image.ibb.co/ng93vq/sheev-dark-nexus.jpg

Given that Sheev is inside the ship, it seems pretty obviously referring to him.

The fact there's a dramatic shift for Leia between approaching the ship and touching foot in the ship indicates it's largely in reference to the dark side energies concentrated in the ship. I don't think Palpatine's presence would be constrained by the ships material like how energies imbued in the walls, air, etc. naturally would (like how they are in Sith temples).

Also, I'll have to find the quote from Veitch saying it's a nexus.

-

I've never seen anything indicating that's how nexuses work.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
The fact there's a dramatic shift for Leia between approaching the ship and touching foot in the ship indicates it's largely in reference to the dark side energies concentrated in the ship.

I don't think Palpatine's presence would be constrained by the ships material like how energies imbued in the walls, air, etc. naturally would (like how they are in Sith temples).

Not really, no. We know nexuses are confined by space, distance, and physical obstruction - otherwise their energies would seep out uninhibited. Nexuses have been confined by temple walls, natural formations, or atmosphere.

Meanwhile, the source material states that the Emperor is "more powerful than ever" after defeating Luke and departing for Da Soocha V and that same source material identifies him, not the ship, as a nexus.



OK.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
I'll get back to this Thursday night. I'll pin it for now. Remind me on Hangouts if I forget.

Also, if the Eclipse were indeed the nexus to which Leia refers, that would also require that it be a more powerful nexus than Byss. This is another reason why that interpretation is... well, suspect, to be charitable.

If Veitch confirms it then that's a moot point. In fact, your point would only make it worse for Sheev because it'd be an even more extreme amp than Byss is stated to be.

Just read the relevant part of Ant's post in the CaV...



...

...

...

...wait, so all this time when the TOR brigade has been bragging about the death wave affecting Ziost's core...this is what you were talking about?

Firstly, you don't need to actually touch the outer core to create temporary disturbances in the magnetic field - you just need an external magnetic field. Solar storms, and indeed large nuclear warheads, can noticeably do this.

Secondly, "geomagnetic pulses", if we guess what that means, could be of any magnitude, and there's basically no reason to think that this feat is actually more energetic than the kinds of firepower force storms are exceeding by being clearly more destructive than base delta zeroes that can boil a world's oceans, blast away its atmosphere and melt its crust. Yeah, let's generously assume the field nondestructively propagated something a few thousand kilometers through the ground - how in the world is this even close to what we see from storms? Even intuitively, the storms are putting entire fleets through tens of thousands of light years! We know that a single imperial star destroyer on jumping to hyperspace consumes more energy than most planetary civilizations do in their lifetimes.

The idea that some vague EM pulses appearing in the planet somehow exceeds force storms that tear apart fleets and bridge wormholes between tens of thousands of light years is just preposterous and it's kind of hilarious that your brigade has been smugly holding this as a secret reason to start scaling Vaylin above Yoda or something.



There is incredibly mild shaking. A few seconds of the Executor's power output coming from that distance away would've been impacting the ship like point blank thermonuclear detonations.



So really faint pulses that aren't enough to knock you down are 1337, but Sidious's force storms can take out fleets of ships faster than their own guns that can turn an entire planet's surface to molten slag aren't. Gotcha.

Ell, the geomagnetic pulses were continuous. Moreover, it's stated that there were fissures ripped into the surface of Ziost deep enough to drop sub-surface probes into.

But no, unfortunately for you, that's not a secret. It's been in LeGenD's blog for years, kek.

To briefly clarify, the significance of the pulses are to indicate that the atmosphere and magnetic field were affected. The pulses themselves are not the feat, although they are impressive in their own right (note I don't think anyone has argued they're comparable to Force storms), lol. So, you're either confused or fabricating your own argument to rebut against.

None of your points seems to address my arguments besides the second and third sentences, which I'll get back to you on soon.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Ell, the geomagnetic pulses were continuous.

What does that even mean?



Which compares to force storms...how exactly?



The new development has been to try to scale creating fissures and pulses that can mildly shake a spaceship to taking out an entire fleet of warships and ripping the surfaces off of worlds.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
To briefly clarify, the significance of the pulses are to indicate that the atmosphere and magnetic field were affected.

Given that force storms >>>>> base delta zeroes that can blast away atmospheres and boil oceans, that's not really impressive.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Given that force storms >>>>> base delta zeroes that can blast away atmospheres and boil oceans, that's not really impressive.

It's impressive when put within the context of the CaV, which is where it's written.

Skillz and others can speak to its relevance (or lack thereof) against Force storms.

To clarify before I respond though: do solar storms and/or nuclear warheads produce effects similar to the pulses or space station shaking, and would their effects encompass the entire planet or just a select region?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
What does that even mean?

Which compares to force storms...how exactly?

1.It means it was a permanent effect on Ziost, it completely changed the make-up of the planet.

2.Causng earthquakes; which coincidentally explains the magnetic pulses, strong enough to rip fissures* deep enough to reach the mantle of the planet, is an absolutely insane feat.

*In the game there's a daily mission where you race a speeder for 1 and a half minutes across a small region, likely no longer than two miles and there's already 6 of them. Scale that upwards and we have hundreds of fissures in the surface of the planet at least. I assume you can do the math there.

Originally posted by AncientPower
1.It means it was a permanent effect on Ziost, it completely changed the make-up of the planet.

*citation needed*



lmao, a Venator's turbolasers cause like richter 9 earthquakes. Are you seriously comparing earthquakes to ripping out a planet's surface? How are the two remotely comparable?



You just destroyed Ziost, thanks. If it's just the consequence of some earthquakes it can't possibly be more energetic than literally disintegrating tectonic plates instead of just shifting them a bit. Any earthquake energetic enough to be more potent than devouring the planet's surface would just destroy the plates instead of causing the earthquake in the first place.



How does this compare to force storms in the slightest? They can destroy capital ships with greater ease than turbolaser barrages that can rend entire planetary surfaces into molten slag. You keep condescendingly gloating about how this feat is "insane" and every time we ask you to actually line it up with force storms and explain how it's better, you pause and just embarrassingly latch onto "earthquakes" as though that's in the same league as creating hyperspace wormholes.

Can you please actually try to compare the two feats instead of just vaguely describing yours and calling it "insane"?

1.You realise that the daily mission Dead Pulse takes place well after the cataclysm of Ziost itself? The pulses kept going. That's the whole point of the mission.

2.Hardly, I'm postulating that it might have been an effect of the earthquakes. Given my first point though, it being the effect of eartbquakes doesn't take into account that they persist long after the earthquakes are finished.

You've still failed to actually show us where in fact the actual tearing off surfaces of planets feat for his Force storms is. Because Sourcebooks don't introduce new information, they adapt it and retell it in a new format. Which leads me to believe that Ant is correct as far as that statement referring to Coruscant goes.

Earthquakes that rip apart the surface; creating persistent anomalies in the magnetic field; disintegrating every living thing; destroying the atmosphere; absorbing the dark side nexus; absorbing all life and Force energy, and creating a void in the Force. Whilst operating as an incorporeal entity. That's the feat, all in one. At least, it is until I'm finished with my research.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion.

Peak Valkorion >> Outlander/Unchained Vaylin/Arcann >> Outlander > Unchained Vaylin >>> KOTET Chapter 9 Arcann <~ Chained Vaylin > Spirit Valkorion >>>>> Ziostiate ~ killing and consuming all life on Ziost.


Essentially, we see that in KOTET Chapter 9, Outlander w/OP holocron + Unchained Vaylin + Redeemed Arcann are utterly overpowered when Valkorion says, "Enough!", snatches the holocron, crushes it, forces the rushing Vaylin and Arcann into submission, each with a casual gesture, then blasting the Outlander with TK and assaulting him with TP. Furthermore, we see that Valkorion is casually able to force Unchained Vaylin to submit to him with TP, and even upon the Outlander's insistence to resist, Valkorion simply applies a bit more pressure, and Vaylin is back under his control. Valkorion could even rejuvenate Vaylin's spirit seemingly indefinitely, thus forcing the Outlander to free her via the holocron. If we assume some degree of relativity between Valkorion's spirit utterly ravaging the trio of Arcann/Vaylin/Outlander w/holocron's spirits and how their physical forms, we can deduce that Peak Valkorion >> Unchained Vaylin/Outlander w/holocron/Redeemed Arcann.

Obviously, the trio collectively would be vastly superior to any of them individually. This leads us to the Outlander, who proved his superiority to Unchained Vaylin by:

a: tanking her final force repulse, essentially walking through it and gutting Vaylin through her force shield.

b: directly defeating Unchained Vaylin's spirit in combat.

This leads us to Unchained Vaylin, whose powers are infinitely greater than those of Chained Vaylin, given that prior to becoming fully Unchained, while undergoing the transformation, her power is stated to be "racing out of control," and she essentially goes from being utterly overwhelmed by and struggling immensely with the 6 sun generators, to completely overpowering them upon becoming Unchained, (and proceeding to casually blow up the whole BRAIN experiment from orbit, to boot). Thus, Unchained Vaylin >>> Chained Vaylin.

Even Chained Vaylin has absurd power curves, though. She goes from being frozen in Valk's time stop, (one where Valk, ironically, mentions how Vaylin's power grows exponentially, and that if he doesn't kill her efficiently, he will die). Vaylin of course completely stomps the Outlander, thus forcing Valkorion to intervene with his time stop. But this time, literally 5 minutes after Valk had Vaylin froze and warned the Outlander about her exponential power growth, Vaylin completely overpowered the time stop in mere seconds. This caused the Outlander to note that Vaylin was even stronger than Valkorion, and the Immortal Emperor had to resort to using her conditioning fashioned by years of rituals on a void meant to "limit her growing power."

As mentioned in the first Reactivation, Spirit Valkorion >>>>> Vitiate as of when he consumed all life on Ziost. Essentially, the gap between Vitiate from the beginning of the Revanite War and Vitiate right before he consumed Ziost is microbial compared to the gap between Spirit Valkorion and Vitiate right before he consumed Ziost. I've also already spoken for the power Ziostiate wields, from the beginning, middle, and end of Ziost.

So, yeah...Peak Valkorion >> Outlander/Unchained Vaylin/Arcann >> Outlander > Unchained Vaylin >>> KOTET Chapter 9 Arcann <~ Chained Vaylin > Spirit Valkorion >>>>> Ziostiate ~ killing and consuming all life on Ziost.

That's cool and all, but how does this directly compare to Sheev?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's cool and all, but how does this directly compare to Sheev?

Terribly, since Sheev is a planet buster.

just because force storms can do better than turbolasers at swallowing ships doesn't mean they can compete in area of damage, they just consume what they touch so to take out a planet surface it would take like days or weeks

also lol @ using ics calcs in mediums where ics calcs clearly don't work, i guess grievous bent starship metal so his fists are like nuclear bombs amirite