If God was actually real, would he have any right to...

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



riv6672
...come to earth and tell us all how to live our lives?
Just bored/wondering.

Adam_PoE
No.

riv6672
I was hoping for a little more, but, i figured that WOULD be the answer. stick out tongue

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by riv6672
...come to earth and tell us all how to live our lives?
Just bored/wondering.

To "Tell" us absolutely.

To FORCE us absolutely not.

There can be no true love or worship without choice.

riv6672
Yeah, by tell i meant force.

Mindship
Does a lucid dreamer have the right to tell the peeps e's dreaming up how to live?

riv6672
You tell me me, Scagliotti.

Mindship
Scagliotti the actress? I don't quite get the reference, but I presume she played a dreamer with a decision to make? Sounds like I missed a good episode of something.

In any event: the dreamer can do whatever he/she wants with that part of him/herself appearing as the dream.

riv6672

Surtur
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
To "Tell" us absolutely.

To FORCE us absolutely not.

There can be no true love or worship without choice.

Well see you actually don't have a choice, you're supposed to worship and love it and only it lol. Choice does not enter into the equation, the 10 commandments aren't merely just helpful suggestions from this thing.

victreebelvictr
I guess He could, you know He is omnipotent and all.

Though, He offers eternal life, we have the CHOICE to take it or not.

Surtur
We have a choice in the same way you would have a choice if a mugger put a gun to your head and said if you don't give him your wallet he will pull the trigger.

Also technically you get eternal life either way...it's not like the souls in hell die of old age.

victreebelvictr
Not really, it is more like if someone offers you a gift, but you may be too stubborn to except it.

It is the person who doesn't except the gift's fault if they go to hell.

Surtur
Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Not really, it is more like if someone offers you a gift, but you may be too stubborn to except it.

It is the person who doesn't except the gift's fault if they go to hell.

Your example would be more accurate if someone offered you a gift only on the condition you worship them and only them.

victreebelvictr
https://www.gotquestions.org/church-heaven.html

No worship is enough to reach Heaven.

Surtur
Originally posted by victreebelvictr
https://www.gotquestions.org/church-heaven.html

No worship is enough to reach Heaven.

Actually no your link does not say this. What this is saying is that going to church isn't a requirement to get into heaven.

It also gives the following bible quote: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life”

This would mean anyone who is agnostic or an atheist would be denied this "eternal life". It also means that people who follow different religions also will be denied. This means you could live a good life, be a good person, do many good deeds, but still be denied if you don't believe. Isn't that evil?

victreebelvictr
Originally posted by Surtur
Actually no your link does not say this. What this is saying is that going to church isn't a requirement to get into heaven.

It also gives the following bible quote: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life”

This would mean anyone who is agnostic or an atheist would be denied this "eternal life". It also means that people who follow different religions also will be denied. This means you could live a good life, be a good person, do many good deeds, but still be denied if you don't believe. Isn't that evil? Yes, it is.

No person is perfect, none have made no sins other than Jesus.

Being an athiest will indeed lend you a spot in hell, you must believe, you don't just get in heaven for being a good person.

Surtur
Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Yes, it is.

No person is perfect, none have made no sins other than Jesus.

Being an athiest will indeed lend you a spot in hell, you must believe, you don't just get in heaven for being a good person.

Well like I said, that is quite evil.

victreebelvictr
Originally posted by Surtur
Well like I said, that is quite evil. I wouldn't say so, if God was evil, than why did He send his only son, who He loved, to an extremely painful death on the cross to give us the chance to go to Heaven?

Flyattractor
That just proves that God isn't a Democrat. Heaven Has Borders and enforces their Immigration Laws.

You Don't Agree with that SURT!?

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by victreebelvictr
I wouldn't say so, if God was evil, than why did He send his only son, who He loved, to an extremely painful death on the cross to give us the chance to go to Heaven?

Sacrificing the life of someone else. How noble.

victreebelvictr
Yes, the life of His one and only son, who in which He loved.

Try to read what I post.

Flyattractor
yeah that will never happen.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Sacrificing the life of someone else. How noble.
Depends on if you're trinitarian or unitarian

Flyattractor
John 15:13

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Yes, the life of His one and only son, who in which He loved.

Try to read what I post.

Try to do what you posted, and end up in jail.

victreebelvictr
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Try to do what you posted, and end up in jail. Yeah, but it isn’t me doing it.

Flyattractor
Adam is to selfish to under stand even the CONCEPT of Sacrifice.

Bentley
Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Being an athiest will indeed lend you a spot in hell, you must believe, you don't just get in heaven for being a good person.

So now you made up your own scriptures? So popeish from you.

Jesus literally says you can spout any nonsense about him or the father and that such attitude will never doom you. Directly from the source. You'd think any literal read of the scripture would catch on that one confused

Flyattractor
Was that before or after the 3rd commandment?

Bentley
Originally posted by Flyattractor
Was that before or after the 3rd commandment?



I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that, but the scripture I'm referring to is Mathew 12:31-32.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Bentley
So now you made up your own scriptures? So popeish from you.

Jesus literally says you can spout any nonsense about him or the father and that such attitude will never doom you. Directly from the source. You'd think any literal read of the scripture would catch on that one confused
Seems that isn't understood by him, just as the concept of Trinitarianism isn't understood by Adam who accuses God of selfish child abuse from an ivory tower without recognizing it fundamentally as an act of self-sacrifice.

Flyattractor
Where it says you can say what you want about man but doing that against the Spirit can REALLY get you into serious trouble?

Bentley
Originally posted by Flyattractor
Where it says you can say what you want about man but doing that against the Spirit can REALLY get you into serious trouble?

It says you can insult Jesus (the Son of Man) and talk blasphemy (dissing the Father). Insulting people in general is not addressed directly in the quote (unless it becomes a straight attack to the Spirit).

But it's the one that warns about not attacking the Spirit, yeah.

Flyattractor
Yeah. Jesus was full that that Forgiving Stuff. It does talk about dissing man. It also says you can be Forgiven for doing that.

Like I said. Jesus and all that Forgiven!!!!!!!!

Surtur
Originally posted by victreebelvictr
I wouldn't say so, if God was evil, than why did He send his only son, who He loved, to an extremely painful death on the cross to give us the chance to go to Heaven?

Wait, the question is essentially "Why did god force his kid to be tortured and murdered for no reason if he's evil?" lol.

Remember when he killed those babies? Good times. Not for the babies though.

Surtur
If that is how God acts when he's good just imagine if he was evil? Hell he might do shit like murder everyone except a few people and some animals. That would be heart breaking. There HAD to be more than two puppies on earth.

God killed puppies. This is the deity you worship. Guarantee you puppies died. Guaranteed. Remember that next time you tell Jesus you love him.

Flyattractor
Consequences man. Gotta Pay them Consequences!

Lumine
Originally posted by Surtur
Wait, the question is essentially "Why did god force his kid to be tortured and murdered for no reason if he's evil?" lol.

Remember when he killed those babies? Good times. Not for the babies though. God was Jesus in the flesh.

Lumine
Originally posted by Surtur
Well like I said, that is quite evil. Please explain how God is evil.

BackFire
War is God.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Seems that isn't understood by him, just as the concept of Trinitarianism isn't understood by Adam who accuses God of selfish child abuse from an ivory tower without recognizing it fundamentally as an act of self-sacrifice. What did God sacrifice?

Lumine
Originally posted by NemeBro
What did God sacrifice? his son

Lord Lucien
He's God, he can get his son back whenever he wants. That's not sacrifice.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He's God, he can get his son back whenever he wants. That's not sacrifice. Basically.

An omnipotent and omniscient being by its very nature is beyond consequence and as such can't make any legitimate sacrifice.

BackFire
God was just tired of Jesus' shit.

Lord Lucien
Also Jesus... is... God? He kills himself and comes back to life. That's not sacrifice, that's a needlessly painful nap.

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by Surtur
Well see you actually don't have a choice, you're supposed to worship and love it and only it lol. Choice does not enter into the equation, the 10 commandments aren't merely just helpful suggestions from this thing.

It IS a "CHOICE" otherwise how would you be condemned by it?

You have the free will to accept the Lord's commandments or not. That is the essence of faith and a lesson that is played out throughout scripture.

Lord Lucien
That's not a choice, that's an ultimatum. A threat. The Lord uses the same method of communication as hostage takers and terrorists.

"You have the choice to accept my offer or the b*tch f*cking dies!"

Except strike out "the b*tch" for "you", and "dies" with "burns forever in eternal torment".

Frankly the terrorist is making a more reasonable demand.

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That's not a choice, that's an ultimatum. A threat. The Lord uses the same method of communication as hostage takers and terrorists.

"You have the choice to accept my offer or the b*tch f*cking dies!"

Except strike out "the b*tch" for "you", and "dies" with "burns forever in eternal torment".

Frankly the terrorist is making a more reasonable demand.


Your analogy is quote frankly asinine.


There is no threat involved.


You can CHOOSE to live life according to your judgement and conventions OR you can accept The Lord's will and live according to scripture.


When you die you will be judged accordingly. That is in NO way similar to a terroristic threat.

Lord Lucien
Accept me as your Lord and saviour and live by my rules-you'll be better off when you die.

Or deny me and/or my rules and you'll be sent to a realm I created specifically to be the worst place ever for you to be dead in for literally eternity.


That's an ultimatum. MY way or the highway. Your God's an evil c*nt.

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Accept me as your Lord and saviour and live by my rules-you'll be better off when you die.

Or deny me and/or my rules and you'll be sent to a realm I created specifically to be the worst place ever for you to be dead in for literally eternity.


That's an ultimatum. MY way or the highway. Your God's an evil c*nt.

That isn't accurate at all.

Heaven WOULD be HELL to unbelievers!

You would now exist in a realm where there is NO choice but to accept The Lord's will for all eternity.

Hell is the complete absence of The Lord's presence, something unbelievers deny/resist in the first place.

The atheist and/or other non-believers are getting the existence they claimed on Earth.

Lord Lucien
Lol you pulled that one of your supple buttock didn't you?


As an atheist, I can confirm that I do not feel your Lord's alleged presence. So... this is my heaven then? Thanks, I guess. But when I die, I have to go to the actual heaven... which will be akin to Hell.

So nothing's changed: God's created a realm of paradise for his worshipers and a realm of absolute misery and suffering for his deniers. That's still heaven and hell bud, they're just a shorter bus ride apart.

Two choices: Accept me and enter paradise, deny me and enter eternal torment. MY WAY or the highway. That's a threat. That's an ultimatum. Your God's an evil f*ck.

Lumine
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Accept me as your Lord and saviour and live by my rules-you'll be better off when you die.

Or deny me and/or my rules and you'll be sent to a realm I created specifically to be the worst place ever for you to be dead in for literally eternity.


That's an ultimatum. MY way or the highway. Your God's an evil c*nt. please keep this professional.

LordofBrooklyn
I am simply citing scripture.

UNBELIEVERS receive grace from being in the presence of believers. As an unbeliever when you die you will no longer have that benefit and will be in a realm where only other non-believers exist.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Lumine
please keep this professional. I mean... no? I don't think you know what words mean.

Lumine
In profession I know. Dont understand where I’m coming from? Thats ok, just be nice then.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
I am simply citing scripture.

UNBELIEVERS receive grace from being in the presence of believers. As an unbeliever when you die you will no longer have that benefit and will be in a realm where only other non-believers exist. Anything to maintain that sense of what makes your tribe unique and special, eh? Can't face up to being simply of us worthless wretches whose existence means nothing and whose lives mean less. Do you really need to feel that special? That you belong to such an elite, exclusive club that even those of who don't will gain unconscious glory by basking in your proximity? Are you that afraid of worthlessness that you've fallen prey to such a kind of elitism?

Originally posted by Lumine
In profession I know Yeah I don't think you do. I'm not being paid for this. Are you?

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Anything to maintain that sense of what makes your tribe unique and special, eh? Can't face up to being simply of us worthless wretches whose existence means nothing and whose lives mean less. Do you really need to feel that special? That you belong to such an elite, exclusive club that even those of who don't will gain unconscious glory by basking in your proximity? Are you that afraid of worthlessness that you've fallen prey to such a kind of elitism?

Yeah I don't think you do. I'm not being paid for this. Are you?

I am the creation of The Lord and by virtue of that alone I am not worthless.

The glory doesn't come from being in proximity to believers but ultimately from The Lord's love! It is not his wish that any should perish but that all should have everlasting peace.

You seem bent on some form of nihilism which ironically enough you appear to worship as a heightened alternative to the discipleship of "Elitist" such as myself. Even Nietzsche acknowledged The Lord's presence.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
I am the creation of The Lord and by virtue of that alone I am not worthless.

The glory doesn't come from being in proximity to believers but ultimately from The Lord's love! It is not his wish that any should perish but that all should have everlasting peace.

You seem bent on some form of nihilism which ironically enough you appear to worship as a heightened alternative to the discipleship of "Elitist" such as myself. Even Nietzsche acknowledged The Lord's presence. I won't lie, I kind of envy your zeal. Nihilism isn't comfortable (I don't give a shit about Nietzche by the way), and it doesn't promise me any rewards. Or punishment. But it's the closest thing to truth as revealed by rigorous scientific evidence and I will always withhold belief until compelling evidence presents itself. Your self-centered and narrow theism is too small and illogical, and demands faith. I can't abide faith. It's defined by belief despite a lack of compelling evidence. That's the mentality of primitive peoples from ages past, it has no utility in the future.

But it does bring you comfort, doesn't it? A special faith for an all powerful entity who created all reality for we humans alone. It makes humanity special. It gives us a reason to be-- without which we may as well not exist, as far as the universe is concerned. Divine purpose is a comfortable notion, isn't it? Cherish that comfort.

MythLord
The fact that a doctor can treat the sick, save lives, continue to do good deeds and somehow ends up in the same place as genocidal maniacs like Hitler and Stalin, just because he doesn't believe in a mystical allmighty being for which little-to-no evidence exists, is morally abhorrent to me.

It's an absolutely repugnant stance that someone gets sent to eternal damnation for being an atheist, despite living a good life. If anything, the atheist should be given a higher reward. An atheist doesn't fear eternal punishment, nor hope for eternal reward; rather he does a good thing because he knows it's moral. Whereas most Christians do it just to get a free ticket "upstairs", as it were.

Surtur
Originally posted by Lumine
Please explain how God is evil.

If you don't believe in him you burn in hell it seems lol.

If God is real I understand sending evil people to hell, but people who merely do not believe in him are not evil at any sane standard.

Plus there is also the whole baby killing thing. Babies are evil though so he gets a pass I guess.

Lumine
Originally posted by Surtur
Plus there is also the whole baby killing thing.


Knew you were going to say that: https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/what-made-it-okay-for-god-to-kill-women-and-children-in-the-old-testament

Lumine

Lumine
Originally posted by MythLord
The fact that a doctor can treat the sick, save lives, continue to do good deeds and somehow ends up in the same place as genocidal maniacs like Hitler and Stalin, just because he doesn't believe in a mystical allmighty being for which little-to-no evidence exists, is morally abhorrent to me.

It's an absolutely repugnant stance that someone gets sent to eternal damnation for being an atheist, despite living a good life. If anything, the atheist should be given a higher reward. An atheist doesn't fear eternal punishment, nor hope for eternal reward; rather he does a good thing because he knows it's moral. Whereas most Christians do it just to get a free ticket "upstairs", as it were. all have still sinned so your point is vague.

MythLord
So everyone goes to hell, then? Again, morally abhorrent.

Lumine
Originally posted by MythLord
So everyone goes to hell, then? Again, morally abhorrent. unless of course, you give your life to Christ.

Robtard
Originally posted by MythLord
So everyone goes to hell, then? Again, morally abhorrent.

I choose to believe that if there is a Heaven and Hell, ie eternal pleasure or eternal pain after death, a God with infinite wisdom wouldn't judge all souls on a single utterly simple and pointless merit of "Did you accept Jesus/Me as your savior?".

That's something a petulant child would do in deciding who gets to go into their tree fort or not. "Not Timmy, he doesn't think I'm the best!"

Though I find the whole idea of heaven and hell to be ridiculous, it's clearly an invention of humanity as a form of control for the masses, imo.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Lumine
unless of course, you give your life to Christ. This God/Christ guy is a bit of a needy immature prick isn't he?

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by Robtard
I choose to believe that if there is a Heaven and Hell, ie eternal pleasure or eternal pain after death, a God with infinite wisdom wouldn't judge all souls on a single utterly simple and pointless merit of "Did you accept Jesus/Me as your savior?".

That's something a petulant child would do in deciding who gets to go into their tree fort or not. "Not Timmy, he doesn't think I'm the best!"

Though I find the whole idea of heaven and hell to be ridiculous, it's clearly an invention of humanity as a form of control for the masses, imo.


You have universal mores and creation stories that are seen throughout the world from the beginning of time.


You choose to see these things as "Control" rather than man's fundamental recognition of a supreme being.

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by NemeBro
This God/Christ guy is a bit of a needy immature prick isn't he?

Offering eternal life and peace is not the actions of an immature or needy individual.

NemeBro
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Offering eternal life and peace is not the actions of an immature or needy individual. It is if the condition for it is the unconditional belief and adoration of the individual without giving them any empirical justification to believe that you're even real my man.

Why would God care whether or not you worship him? Why is it so important to him?

Lumine

NemeBro

victreebelvictr

ares834
Well it certainly seems pretty important to him as if I don't worship him, he apparently gives me a one way ticket to eternal suffering and torment. What a great guy.

victreebelvictr

ares834
Don't you have to except Jesus as your lord and savior in your heart or something? That sounds an awful lot like worship to me...

victreebelvictr

Surtur
Originally posted by Lumine
Knew you were going to say that: https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/what-made-it-okay-for-god-to-kill-women-and-children-in-the-old-testament

Dude, I haven't even read most of your link, but here is the first part:

"It's right for God to slaughter women and children anytime he pleases. God gives life and he takes life. Everybody who dies, dies because God wills that they die. "

Wtf lol. That sounds like a super villain.

EDIT: I read it. It seems like nothing but a lousy justification for genocide. "God told him to annihilate the people so he did". Lol. You are worshiping some sort of thing that promotes genocide.

Oh I'm sorry, he apparently spared 8 people. So not 100% genocide! Achievement denied.

Surtur
"The Bible says, "Thou shalt not murder," yet God says to Joshua, "Go in and clean house, and don't leave anything breathing! Don't leave a donkey, child, woman, old man or old woman breathing. Wipe out Jericho."

https://i.imgur.com/YffZZ9o.png

Surtur
Also I wasn't talking about killing babies in a flood, I meant the whole "kill the first born" thing. Though yeah the flood definitely killed babies too. There is a lot of baby blood on it's hands.

Also drowning is a horrible way to die. Yes it's true as God it could have killed them painlessly but...lol, f*ck that noise.

socool8520
Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Yes, it is.

No person is perfect, none have made no sins other than Jesus.

Being an athiest will indeed lend you a spot in hell, you must believe, you don't just get in heaven for being a good person.

To me, that is ridiculous and makes God a jealous Narcissist.

riv6672
Huh. This thread started out slow, but damn if it didnt become interesting. Thanks guys...thumb up

ArtificialGlory

Surtur
Why does God hate donkeys though? What did donkeys do to it?

So when God see's sinners first it is like "okay time go some genocide, I'll spare 8 people".

Then it's "Oh I see sinners, so I'll have a kid, that is also me, and will go have him be tortured and killed to save the souls of the sinners. Also bee tee dubs they still go to hell if they don't worship me".

Clearly if this is real we are dealing with some sort of eldritch abomination that is enjoying toying with the things it created.

Surtur
Reminds me of this clip:

ZhgLEkgO0yo

Flyattractor
You step in donkey shit and you wouldn't have any deep love for those Asses either!!!!!!!

Surtur

victreebelvictr

Surtur
https://biblehub.com/judges/15-16.htm

There are different versions of the quote, this is the most hilarious though:

"Then Samson said, "With a donkey's jawbone I have made donkeys of them. With a donkey's jawbone I have killed a thousand men.""

laughing

darthgoober
Originally posted by riv6672
...come to earth and tell us all how to live our lives?
Just bored/wondering.
I believe in God, but I believe there's a lot more nuance to him, the afterlife, and his expectations than most give him credit for. However, if I'm wrong about that and things are as clear cut and harsh as they're frequently made out to be, I'd have to say yes, he has that right. By the same token, if a programmer creates a video game from the ground up, he has the right to set it up any way he wants to. He has every right to dictate any and all aspects of his game. Even if he himself sets up variables, he has every right to say that certain results from the variables will result in a character being deleted from the game or whatever else he wants. It's the programmer's universe, no aspect of that universe is inherently entitled to anything beyond what's laid out by the programmer.

The Spectre+
And I Dont Know Where Peeps Got The Idea That God Tortures People In Eternal Fire. When The Bible Sayssad2peter 3:9) "God......Is Patient With You Because He Does Not Desire Anyone To Be Destroyed, But Desires All To Attain To Repentance". And Then 1peter 5:7 Says "He Cares For You"

Even Job Who Formerly Thought God Was The Cause Of His Immense Suffering Said Later On : "it Is UNTHINKABLE For The True God To Act WICKEDLY, For The Almighty To Do Wrong!".

This Shows Contrary To What Some People Think God Dosent Torture People After They Die. Neither Is He The Cause Of Human Suffering.

Lord Lucien
As you can tell from this book a bunch of ancient dead people wrote, the creator and overlord of all reality has a knowable will.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.