Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Inspired by an hour long, informal voice chat between me, ILS, Azronger, and The_Ellimist about this character.

The purpose of this series is to analyze and discuss a specific subject thoroughly and in good faith. Power, philosophy & personality; skills and knowledge, strengths and weaknesses - it's all open. There are no sacred shaaks here.

First up, Darth Krayt.



https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fcGQTJ5jdSk/W9DKkve9WxI/AAAAAAAANK0/FTMTq5K75D0pXtOc1bpqX9VU15QMNdXFQCL0BGAYYCw/h553/50_15%2B-%2BEdited.jpg

One of the more obscure and interesting notions surrounding Krayt pertains to his alleged influence over the Sith troopers.

https://preview.ibb.co/iJ1GmV/sith-trooper-1.jpg

This doesn't seem to be an expression of mere patriotism. "Linked through the dark side" is the key point for me. Otherwise I'd be inclined to say that they were programmed or conditioned to just be insanely loyal.

Looking at it, though, it does appear that his will drives his Sith troopers through the dark side.

So in my opinion, from the arguments and counter-arguments I have heard, I position Krayt at roughly the same level as Grand Master Luke Skywalker circa Fate of the Jedi. I think the text in Apocalypse makes it clear he wouldn't get smacked aside like a gnat by Luke based on his performance against Abeloth, so that's an extremely impressive baseline for Krayt to scale off of for his more powerful Reborn state.

He also has other absurd feats like unbalancing the Force a la Plagueis and Sidious, dominating millions of Sith troopers telepathically, and having the accolade that even in his supremely weakened Vong state, his mastery of telekinesis and lightning would vastly outstrip any Sith of his era - and if we take that to mean the entirety of the Legacy era, it would include Darish Vol, a seeming rival to Luke in Fate of the Jedi - only to grow colossaly more powerful from there.

Great idea for a thread series.

I'll just throw a tidbit out there to get things started.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4571723-sts+post+mortem2+-+edited.png

This Sith Trooper throws out the figure of "millions", seeming to imply there are millions of Sith Troopers at Krayt's disposal, all willing to live and die by his will. This has a few implications, not only logistically but also because as we know, when Krayt died the final time, every Sith Trooper on Coruscant went insane on the spot and suicide bombed into the Jedi Temple and other buildings. There was clearly some kind of Force connection shared between Krayt and this army of fanatical Sith. It's been interpreted as an immense telepathic feat.

My thoughts are that there cannot, logistically, be millions of Sith Troopers. Reason being, and while there is no conclusive evidence of this, but there appears to be no more than 10,000-20,000 Sith in Krayt's empire before the Sith Troopers are unveiled. Ostrander said in an interview/Q&A which sadly can't be restored, that the Jedi had similar numbers to the PT Jedi at the start of Legacy and the Sith had even less than that, but they ambushed the Jedi at the right time to wipe them out. In addition, we know Krayt employs no more than one Sith Lord to rule over one star system each, and there are some systems that are so backwater they don't even warrant a Sith Lord to themselves, and in that case one Sith would manage an entire sector.

It begs the question, if Krayt has millions of Sith Troopers, how can he only have 10kish normal Sith? He could solve a whole lot of problems instantly if he unleashed his army. Moreover, he would spare more than one Sith per star system if he had those kinds of logistics.

As a TP feat, I don't think it's a kind of mental domination. I think Krayt raised these Troopers from infancy, established in them a fanatic devotion to his will, and formed something of a Force bond/connection to them. Similarly, characters that have run ins with Krayt like Cade and Darth Stryfe remark that they feel Krayt in their minds constantly, and his presence only leaves when he dies. So Krayt isn't exactly dominating their minds, they are indoctrinated servants, but he does have a presence in their minds and an impressive mental reach over the whole galaxy that is worthy of consideration.

Originally posted by Azronger
So in my opinion, from the arguments and counter-arguments I have heard, I position Krayt at roughly the same level as Grand Master Luke Skywalker circa Fate of the Jedi. I think the text in Apocalypse makes it clear he wouldn't get smacked aside like a gnat by Luke based on his performance against Abeloth, so that's an extremely impressive baseline for Krayt to scale off of for his more powerful Reborn state.

He also has other absurd feats like unbalancing the Force a la Plagueis and Sidious, dominating millions of Sith troopers telepathically, and having the accolade that even in his supremely weakened Vong state, his mastery of telekinesis and lightning would vastly outstrip any Sith of his era - and if we take that to mean the entirety of the Legacy era, it would include Darish Vol, a seeming rival to Luke in Fate of the Jedi - only to grow colossaly more powerful from there.

Cool stuff, Az. We can - and indeed should - dive in deeper into any particulars you want to discuss.

I'm not prepared to claim that Krayt is Luke's equal, but if we isolate the events of Apocalypse alone, I'm persuaded that they're portrayed comparably.

I'd probably also push back a bit on Darish Vol. Are we sure that Vol is of Krayt's era, when contextually that era seems to refer to the timeframe of the Legacy comics?

Before or after I respond to Gideon about Anakin tomorrow, I plan to write why I don't think Luke and Krayt show any parity.

Obviously, I expect rebuttals to that and maybe ILS/Gideon can convince me on that stance.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Great idea for a thread series.

I'll just throw a tidbit out there to get things started.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4571723-sts+post+mortem2+-+edited.png

This Sith Trooper throws out the figure of "millions", seeming to imply there are millions of Sith Troopers at Krayt's disposal, all willing to live and die by his will. This has a few implications, not only logistically but also because as we know, when Krayt died the final time, every Sith Trooper on Coruscant went insane on the spot and suicide bombed into the Jedi Temple and other buildings. There was clearly some kind of Force connection shared between Krayt and this army of fanatical Sith. It's been interpreted as an immense telepathic feat.

My thoughts are that there cannot, logistically, be millions of Sith Troopers. Reason being, and while there is no conclusive evidence of this, but there appears to be no more than 10,000-20,000 Sith in Krayt's empire before the Sith Troopers are unveiled. Ostrander said in an interview/Q&A which sadly can't be restored, that the Jedi had similar numbers to the PT Jedi at the start of Legacy and the Sith had even less than that, but they ambushed the Jedi at the right time to wipe them out. In addition, we know Krayt employs no more than one Sith Lord to rule over one star system each, and there are some systems that are so backwater they don't even warrant a Sith Lord to themselves, and in that case one Sith would manage an entire sector.

It begs the question, if Krayt has millions of Sith Troopers, how can he only have 10kish normal Sith? He could solve a whole lot of problems instantly if he unleashed his army. Moreover, he would spare more than one Sith per star system if he had those kinds of logistics.

I understand your skepticism for the logistics, but to be fair, Star Wars has shit out some truly ridiculous numbers for its context (on the big and small scale): 3 million clone troops, anybody?

Given the timeframe between Krayt's death at Wyyrlok's hands and his rebirth, didn't you tell me it was about a month? That would imply that these Sith Troopers, given their advanced training and numbers, were in development a long time prior to Wyyrlok's betrayal.

Could be analogous to what Sheev was doing with the so-called Dark Empire during the time of the Galactic Empire; working behind the scenes to prepare new assets, technologies, and pawns in private to replace the current paradigm.

If that's so, it's at least more plausible that their could be such tremendous numbers of Sith troopers.



This, however, is a fair point. Perhaps it's not like he's telepathically enslaving them, but the text does indicate that his will drives the troopers as linked by the dark side. So it's not necessarily full on possession or mindhaxx, but still a potent telepathic influence.

Thanks to the Essential Reader's Companion, the Legacy era spans from 37 ABY - 140 ABY. So yeah, the Krayt >> other Sith quote includes Vol and friends.

Originally posted by Vitiate
Thanks to the Essential Reader's Companion, the Legacy era spans from 37 ABY - 140 ABY. So yeah, the Krayt >> other Sith quote includes Vol and friends.

Many novels also have this timeline that has the Legacy era starting at 37 ABY.

Originally posted by Vitiate
Thanks to the Essential Reader's Companion, the Legacy era spans from 37 ABY - 140 ABY. So yeah, the Krayt >> other Sith quote includes Vol and friends.

I'm not surprised that the OOU "era" is denoted as such, I'm just not sure that's what the text is necessarily referring to in Insider.

I mean, to be fair, Krayt was alive during Sidious's lifetime. Wouldn't the PT or OT be part of his era as well?

To clarify: an era could simply be referring to an undetermined span of time.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not surprised that the OOU "era" is denoted as such, I'm just not sure that's what the text is necessarily referring to in Insider.

I mean, to be fair, Krayt was alive during Sidious's lifetime. Wouldn't the PT or OT be part of his era as well?

To clarify: an era could simply be referring to an undetermined span of time.

Well, we have two explicit quotes confirming Sidious is more powerful than Krayt, so we'd have to throw the evidence from one side out completely. If we're interested in crafting as coherent of a ranking for Krayt as possible, we should go the route with the least discrepancies, and the interpretation where all the facts can fit in without coming to conflict with each other is the one where Sidious is not curtailed by Krayt's quote.

As for the rest of your points, I think the Legacy era is the most straightforward interpretation, but I agree it is nebulous and not definitive. I'm open to agreeing to disagree if you wish.

Originally posted by Azronger
Well, we have two explicit quotes confirming Sidious is more powerful than Krayt, so we'd have to throw the evidence from one side out completely. If we're interested in crafting as coherent of a ranking for Krayt as possible, we should go the route with the least discrepancies, and the interpretation where all the facts can fit in without coming to conflict with each other is the one where Sidious is not curtailed by Krayt's quote.

Fair enough.



We can, but I'm open to persuasion on this. Looking at the text, I think "era" might be an informal designation - not reflective of the OOU time frames established by Del Rey publishing.

Additionally, you wisely say we should walk the route with the "least discrepancies." Consider this: if the Legacy "era" in this context truly includes Fate of the Jedi, that means Krayt's telekinetic and lightning skills "far outstrip" Vol's, who himself has "much the power of Skywalker" in Abeloth's estimation.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Fair enough.



We can, but I'm open to persuasion on this. Looking at the text, I think "era" might be an informal designation - not reflective of the OOU time frames established by Del Rey publishing.

Additionally, you wisely say we should walk the route with the "least discrepancies." Consider this: if the Legacy "era" in this context truly includes Fate of the Jedi, that means Krayt's telekinetic and lightning skills "far outstrip" Vol's, who himself has "much the power of Skywalker" in Abeloth's estimation.

Consider the "Legacy Era Sourcebook" features events after almost exclusively around the Legacy comics and doesn't include Caedus, Luke, etc.

https://i.imgur.com/XTXrgz5.png

Yeah, it's supremely likely that quote isn't including Caedus, Vol, etc.

After thinking about it: The novel Legacy "era" and the Comic Legacy "era" could be two different "eras". The description from the ERC doesn't mention the happenings from the comics.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Consider the "Legacy Era Sourcebook" features events after almost exclusively around the Legacy comics and doesn't include Caedus, Luke, etc. Originally posted by Jaggarath
https://i.imgur.com/XTXrgz5.png

Yeah, it's supremely likely that quote isn't including Caedus, Vol, etc. Both very astute points. I didn't actually clock until now that the Legacy "Era" sourcebook has a separate definition for that era from the conventional eras described in cover flaps of comics and novels. Although it's what is says on the tin lol.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I understand your skepticism for the logistics, but to be fair, Star Wars has shit out some truly ridiculous numbers for its context (on the big and small scale): 3 million clone troops, anybody?

Given the timeframe between Krayt's death at Wyyrlok's hands and his rebirth, didn't you tell me it was about a month? That would imply that these Sith Troopers, given their advanced training and numbers, were in development a long time prior to Wyyrlok's betrayal.

Could be analogous to what Sheev was doing with the so-called Dark Empire during the time of the Galactic Empire; working behind the scenes to prepare new assets, technologies, and pawns in private to replace the current paradigm.

If that's so, it's at least more plausible that their could be such tremendous numbers of Sith troopers.Krayt was working on this for a very long time.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4571578-krayt+sts.png
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4571579-krayt+sts2.png

It was decades in the making and you rightly point out that it's a contingency plan; Sith by their very nature seek power and are willing to backstab for it. He needed an unquestionably loyal army.

That said? Unless something else other than just the Sith Troopers word corroborates this, I find it too hard to believe his figure is plausible. There's too many holes. I.e he's handpicking them from birth based on their Force sensitivity, meaning that these are the exceptional beings he picked, and the averages were left out, so if he has 2 million chosen troopers, there's 4 million he reviewed and left out. He kept this a secret from even his closest confidante in Wyyrlok, so his resources for the project are entirely his own, he has no aid from his Sith Empire.

There's the fact that if his secret army is in the millions, his conventional, weaker army must also be in the millions, meaning Krayt built an empire of millions of Sith in about 100 years in secret on Korriban from nothing. Also in the sequel Legacy comic series, the remnants of the Sith Empire seemed to congregate on one planet in the numbers of hundreds, which is far too small if previously we were discussing millions.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
https://i.imgur.com/XTXrgz5.png

Yeah, it's supremely likely that quote isn't including Caedus, Vol, etc.

Nice.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Both very astute points. I didn't actually clock until now that the Legacy "Era" sourcebook has a separate definition for that era from the conventional eras described in cover flaps of comics and novels. Although it's what is says on the tin lol.



Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Krayt was working on this for a very long time.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4571578-krayt+sts.png
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4571579-krayt+sts2.png

It was decades in the making and you rightly point out that it's a contingency plan; Sith by their very nature seek power and are willing to backstab for it. He needed an unquestionably loyal army.

That said? Unless something else other than just the Sith Troopers word corroborates this, I find it too hard to believe his figure is plausible. There's too many holes. I.e he's handpicking them from birth based on their Force sensitivity, meaning that these are the exceptional beings he picked, and the averages were left out, so if he has 2 million chosen troopers, there's 4 million he reviewed and left out. He kept this a secret from even his closest confidante in Wyyrlok, so his resources for the project are entirely his own, he has no aid from his Sith Empire.

There's the fact that if his secret army is in the millions, his conventional, weaker army must also be in the millions, meaning Krayt built an empire of millions of Sith in about 100 years in secret on Korriban from nothing. Also in the sequel Legacy comic series, the remnants of the Sith Empire seemed to congregate on one planet in the numbers of hundreds, which is far too small if previously we were discussing millions.

Eh, I'm not so sure.

The fact that Krayt kept this secret from Wyyrlok doesn't mean that this project was done without extant Imperial/Sith resources. Considering the scope of Krayt's machinations and the scope of his empire, it's entirely possible to divert tremendous resources to clandestine projects. Sheev did it all the time throughout the Republic and the Empire.

Additionally, it's important to reaffirm that the logistical silliness of millions of Sith troopers isn't an unprecedented aspect of Star Wars lore, which often throws around absurdly low infantry numbers, etc.

If Krayt began this program decades ago, culling strong Force-sensitives shortly after birth with a galaxy at his disposal, this isn't out of the question even if it seems exceptionally unlikely.

Out of curiosity, do you think the Sith trooper is lying or exaggerating?

Originally posted by The_Tempest




Eh, I'm not so sure.

The fact that Krayt kept this secret from Wyyrlok doesn't mean that this project was done without extant Imperial/Sith resources. Considering the scope of Krayt's machinations and the scope of his empire, it's entirely possible to divert tremendous resources to clandestine projects. Sheev did it all the time throughout the Republic and the Empire.

Additionally, it's important to reaffirm that the logistical silliness of millions of Sith troopers isn't an unprecedented aspect of Star Wars lore, which often throws around absurdly low infantry numbers, etc.

If Krayt began this program decades ago, culling strong Force-sensitives shortly after birth with a galaxy at his disposal, this isn't out of the question even if it seems exceptionally unlikely.

Out of curiosity, do you think the Sith trooper is lying or exaggerating? Valid points on the whole. Just because something seems implausible in how it came to be, it doesn't necessarily change that it is the case.

I don't think the Trooper is lying. For exaggerating, I have a theory. Imagine from birth your entire life revolved around the fanatic devotion and worship of one man. A man who chose you by hand, is in your mind constantly, who you are an extension of the will of. The "One Sith" is one cohesive unit which is at the behest, under the uncontested rule of one supreme leader.

If that was all I knew about the world, I might assume that that is the same for everyone else who lives under Krayt's empire, and so he may genuinely believe millions of people, Sith and Imperials alike, all share a will with Krayt. In a sense he might be correct, that Krayt's will marshals his proxy armies of Imperials, soldiers, spies, politicians and Sith, in both direct and indirect senses.

Something interesting occurred to me while thinking about Dark Transfer. So if I remember correctly, Dark Transfer is simply pouring Force energy into the cracks one sees in shatterpoints, as in the ability requires shatterpoint as a prerequisite. Correct?

So, if we observe the most prominent user of the shatterpoint ability in the mythos, Mace Windu, his use of the ability transcends the physical to the point where he is able to perceive metaphysical spiritual fault lines in the fabric of the Force. This has been noted many times from Shatterpoint to the Revenge of the Sith novel and he has feats doing it. So there is precedent for the idea is that Krayt could pour Force energy into not just physical, but metaphysical cracks in the fabric of reality.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KqHNkgV12dk/W9D5h57n3tI/AAAAAAAAV-I/hHxIfdrTv9EkVs2T6S-C7VAflmVa0G78wCL0BGAYYCw/h788/DT%2B1.PNG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JedobXEP2vE/W9D5k0Va-kI/AAAAAAAAV-U/0ZrtWcSIdxwMkmCYb_D4745o9EUHxvqQgCL0BGAYYCw/h814/DT%2B2.PNG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VmqYcp9WBtY/W9D5oLUGZiI/AAAAAAAAV-g/o8S_0zyk_NYPn8VDttt2h1AslisaxPzrQCL0BGAYYCw/h640/DT%2B3.PNG

See what he's doing? He kills Cade using Dark Transfer, then resurrects him using the same power. And we know he's doing more than just repairing his organs; he's making him see the same vision he saw while traversing the netherworld that made him learn Dark Transfer and "see the truth of things." So we know that Cade's spirit is at the very least in some limbo, and not fully in the physical realm. Yet Krayt is able to revive him using Dark Transfer. How would he be able to do that if his power were confined to the physical? To me, it's clear that, like Mace Windu, he's acquired the ability to perceive metaphysical and spiritual shatterpoints, and he's able to pour Force energy into these fault lines, either to destroy or heal.

So my proposition is this: could Krayt also theoretically perceive the weaknesses in his own spirit like he did with Cade's and pour Force energy into those cracks to essentially make himself more powerful by willing it so?

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Valid points on the whole. Just because something seems implausible in how it came to be, it doesn't necessarily change that it is the case.

I don't think the Trooper is lying. For exaggerating, I have a theory. Imagine from birth your entire life revolved around the fanatic devotion and worship of one man. A man who chose you by hand, is in your mind constantly, who you are an extension of the will of. The "One Sith" is one cohesive unit which is at the behest, under the uncontested rule of one supreme leader.

If that was all I knew about the world, I might assume that that is the same for everyone else who lives under Krayt's empire, and so he may genuinely believe millions of people, Sith and Imperials alike, all share a will with Krayt. In a sense he might be correct, that Krayt's will marshals his proxy armies of Imperials, soldiers, spies, politicians and Sith, in both direct and indirect senses.


Well, I certainly understand why an individual devoted to their Master might describe the latter in flowery, grandiose language. Your point is well taken there. That said, I don't see any reason to believe the "millions" comment is inaccurate.

Additionally, I think if it doesn't refer to strictly Sith troopers, you create the same problem in a different direction. Krayt's empire most certainly is comprised of far more than mere "millions" of pawns.

The topic of how the various Orders/Iterations of the Sith stack up as a whole is interesting. I'd offer that Reborn!Krayt is probably most closely aligned with the extreme ends of the ancient Sith and Banite orders (Vitiate, Plagueis, PT Sidious territory) and no lower.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
The topic of how the various Orders/Iterations of the Sith stack up as a whole is interesting. I'd offer that Reborn!Krayt is probably most closely aligned with the extreme ends of the ancient Sith and Banite orders (Vitiate, Plagueis, PT Sidious territory) and no lower.
Well there are really only two metrics by which you can rate a Sith Order. The strength of the Lords it produced, and how quickly/totally it achieved dominance of the Galaxy. It terms of the latter Krayt's order is definitely in the top two, next to the Banites, but it could be argued that it's in fact the most successful Order of all time, if you consider the fact that it took no more than a century for it to grow from inception to near total domination of the Galaxy and almost wiping out the Jedi. Palpatine did a little better on both counts, and that's against a stronger Jedi Order and a stronger Republic, but it took 10x the time and a Chosen One for it to happen.

In terms of the former I'd argue the One Sith don't rate very high at all. Save for Krayt himself, there are no top tier Sith in his empire. Wyyrlok III is quite impressive(and his daughter's potential was scary) but he is like Dooku or Maul. One level below the truly exceptional Sith. In that regard Krayt created more of a flash in the pan empire, similar to Exar Kun. One or two powerful individual and an army of random mooks.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Well there are really only two metrics by which you can rate a Sith Order. The strength of the Lords it produced, and how quickly/totally it achieved dominance of the Galaxy. It terms of the latter Krayt's order is definitely in the top two, next to the Banites, but it could be argued that it's in fact the most successful Order of all time, if you consider the fact that it took no more than a century for it to grow from inception to near total domination of the Galaxy and almost wiping out the Jedi. Palpatine did a little better on both counts, and that's against a stronger Jedi Order and a stronger Republic, but it took 10x the time and a Chosen One for it to happen.

In terms of the former I'd argue the One Sith don't rate very high at all. Save for Krayt himself, there are no top tier Sith in his empire. Wyyrlok III is quite impressive(and his daughter's potential was scary) but he is like Dooku or Maul. One level below the truly exceptional Sith. In that regard Krayt created more of a flash in the pan empire, similar to Exar Kun. One or two powerful individual and an army of random mooks. Krayt built and inherited his empire on the back of Sidious' work, per the Legacy Era sourcebook. Sidious laid the foundations. Krayt did build his Sith Order from the ground up, but not the Galactic Empire. That's key. He also benefited from the galaxy being ravaged by the Vong and Abeloth, and struck the Jedi by exploiting a weakness in that aftermath.

And yes, I'd say that's a nice way of putting it. Krayt didn't want much contention over his supreme rule and vision for the Order. In many ways the Order is a natural extension of Krayt's own will and motivations, and his Sith are just proxy agents. The only competition was between Sith vying for Krayt's approval so that they can serve him to a greater degree. It is noted that Krayt in an unprecedented way curbed the natural desire to overthrow and backstab in a Sith Order, and that's without talking about his unquestioning army of Sith Troopers.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Krayt built and inherited his empire on the back of Sidious' work, per the Legacy Era sourcebook. Sidious laid the foundations. Krayt did build his Sith Order from the ground up, but not the Galactic Empire. That's key. He also benefited from the galaxy being ravaged by the Vong and Abeloth, and struck the Jedi by exploiting a weakness in that aftermath.
And Sidious built his empire on the back of the rest of the Banites. He would be nothing without Rugess Nome and Hego Damask's incalculable wealth and political/underworld connections. They were basically the Henry Ford and JP Morgan of the Galaxy, they gave Palpatine his start in politics, got him elected Chancellor, bankrolled the Clone Army and probably the CIS too(I honestly can't remember). Palpatine also benefited from the fact that both the Republic and the Jedi were rotten to the core and blinded by arrogance and decadence. Or as Snoke put it in the Jedi's case, a "sclerotic, self-perpetuating debating society".

So yes, technically Palpatine was a little more successful, but he stood on the shoulders of giants. When Krayt first had his vision for the Sith he was just some random guy with a holocron.

Those are fair points, and I'm not immediately sure I can contradict your logic here so I won't argue. And technically, Krayt was some random guy who didn't even have a holocron when he had his vision, he was some near-dead political prisoner of an extra-galactic alien invasion force.

Let's not derail the thread, but for the record...

https://image.ibb.co/nh5z8A/sidious-predecessors.png

https://image.ibb.co/fYFMMV/sidious-predecessors-2.png

The lion's share of the work was done by Sheev.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
The topic of how the various Orders/Iterations of the Sith stack up as a whole is interesting. I'd offer that Reborn!Krayt is probably most closely aligned with the extreme ends of the ancient Sith and Banite orders (Vitiate, Plagueis, PT Sidious territory) and no lower.

After our conversations, I can see peak!Krayt rivaling any Sith barring the reborn Emperor.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Krayt built and inherited his empire on the back of Sidious' work, per the Legacy Era sourcebook. Sidious laid the foundations. Krayt did build his Sith Order from the ground up, but not the Galactic Empire. That's key. He also benefited from the galaxy being ravaged by the Vong and Abeloth, and struck the Jedi by exploiting a weakness in that aftermath.

And yes, I'd say that's a nice way of putting it. Krayt didn't want much contention over his supreme rule and vision for the Order. In many ways the Order is a natural extension of Krayt's own will and motivations, and his Sith are just proxy agents. The only competition was between Sith vying for Krayt's approval so that they can serve him to a greater degree. It is noted that Krayt in an unprecedented way curbed the natural desire to overthrow and backstab in a Sith Order, and that's without talking about his unquestioning army of Sith Troopers.

It's not really the political thing that's relevant to Unbowed's point - there's a distinction between the mundane Empire that Krayt inherited by piggybacking off of others' work and the mystic Sith Order that he built himself from scratch. It's kind of remarkable how the likes of Bane, Tenebrous and Plagueis all considered it an impossibility to exterminate the Jedi through brute force, yet Krayt did it anyway. He accomplished in a little over a century what the Sith had been continually failing at for the past seven millennia.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
The topic of how the various Orders/Iterations of the Sith stack up as a whole is interesting. I'd offer that Reborn!Krayt is probably most closely aligned with the extreme ends of the ancient Sith and Banite orders (Vitiate, Plagueis, PT Sidious territory) and no lower.

Agreed completely. Krayt's cosmic powers are far too puissant to rank him merely on the level of someone like Exar Kun, Darth Bane and such. Only the upper echelons of the Sith have such descriptions of their abilities like having "a recorder on the eye of fate," and being depicted as prophetic figures like Krayt appearing in visions as an enigmatic dark man to Luke and Jacen, sitting on the Throne of Balance. And we even discussed in our calls how Reborn Krayt might be a 4D reality warper, which would put the nail in that coffin.

In short, he's far too cosmologically significant to be anything but a first-rate Sith Lord, in my opinion

Originally posted by Azronger
It's not really the political thing that's relevant to Unbowed's point - there's a distinction between the mundane Empire that Krayt inherited by piggybacking off of others' work and the mystic Sith Order that he built himself from scratch. It's kind of remarkable how the likes of Bane, Tenebrous and Plagueis all considered it an impossibility to exterminate the Jedi through brute force, yet Krayt did it anyway. He accomplished in a little over a century what the Sith had been continually failing at for the past seven millennia. This is a good point you've made. Moving all the pieces necessary to Build a stable, formidable, hierarchical Sith Order to rival the Jedi, Seize galactic political and military power as a dictating emperor and Nigh-wiping out the Jedi Order were all machinations that originated with Krayt and his vision on the Vong scout ship.

I am sure there are quotes that support Krayt being the main mover and shaker in this, and like you later say, it was Krayt showing up in people's nightmares, on the Throne of Balance and so on, likely for good reason.

Bump. Unless anyone has any discussion points they'd like to raise in the near future, I think it could be worthwhile to decide who the next Fireside thread will be on. I'll list the following as candidates:

-Knightfall Darth Vader
-Exar Kun
-Darth Bane
-Revan/Darth Malak
-Galen Marek/Starkiller

Originally posted by The_Tempest
thoroughly


https://www.kanyetothe.com/forum/Smileys/default/q7n7s7m.png

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Bump. Unless anyone has any discussion points they'd like to raise in the near future, I think it could be worthwhile to decide who the next Fireside thread will be on. I'll list the following as candidates:

-Knightfall Darth Vader
-Exar Kun
-Darth Bane
-Revan/Darth Malak
-Galen Marek/Starkiller

A thread on Revan should be done after my debate with Ant has concluded, not before. Same goes for suit Vader.

Knightfall Vader would be a good option, though, but I believe this thread still has lots of discussion value.

Exar Kun should be done tbh.

Valkorion.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaGcp5xsIvU&t=2m34s

Didn't Azronger know that Krayt could perceive Shatterpoints like Windu?

I think Darth Bane is the best option for a fireside chat thread.

Originally posted by Sinious
I think Darth Bane is the best option for a fireside chat thread.

Nah, I need to finish my CaV with Kurk first. I think that KF Vader is a better choice.

Originally posted by Sinious
I think Darth Bane is the best option for a fireside chat thread. I agree completely!

Originally posted by Azronger
he's making him see the same vision he saw while traversing the netherworld that made him learn Dark Transfer and "see the truth of things."

So now Krayt not only brought Cade back to life, but he also escaped Chaos and returned back to living world to heal himself with Dark transfer?

Nice one, Azronger. At least Krayt didn't need a bunch of Sith spirits to return to the corporeal plane.

Let's play a game called: post unpopular opinions relating to Krayt/Legacy. I'll go first:

There's a very realistic possibility that Celeste Morne-Karness Muur is more powerful than Muur in his own body back in the day.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Let's play a game called: post unpopular opinions relating to Krayt/Legacy. I'll go first:

Arguing the Muur > Krayt quotes refers to Dark Transfer and not Force power is comparable mental gymnastics to the SF Malak quote.



Also couldn't care less about it to do anything about it either.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Let's play a game called: post unpopular opinions relating to Krayt/Legacy. I'll go first:

There's a very realistic possibility that Celeste Morne-Karness Muur is more powerful than Muur in his own body back in the day. I had an argument about that. It makes no sense that that would entirely be Muur's power especially when Celeste was able to contend with Vader to some degree on her own. Suddenly Celeste's powers go down to zero when Muur takes over? That makes literally no sense. The force potential and power of Celeste will always be there when it's her body. Muur wanted powerful people as well, which would again make no sense if her power just went away and it was all Muur's.

Muur is stacking his power onto Celeste's power.

The real speculation however begins when you consider the amulet is filled with the Darkside, and Muur may be channelling more power than he himself may have been capable of when he was alive.

Muur still eats Krayt alive, and therefore so does Kun

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I had an argument about that. It makes no sense that that would entirely be Muur's power especially when Celeste was able to contend with Vader to some degree on her own. Suddenly Celeste's powers go down to zero when Muur takes over? That makes literally no sense. The force potential and power of Celeste will always be there when it's her body. Muur wanted powerful people as well, which would again make no sense if her power just went away and it was all Muur's.

Muur is stacking his power onto Celeste's power.

The real speculation however begins when you consider the amulet is filled with the Darkside, and Muur may be channelling more power than he himself may have been capable of when he was alive.
This does not make sense.

Muur takes over Celeste in full, and from this point, Muur channel his powers through her body. Celeste is just a vessel in this situation.

And it is possible that Celeste is not strong enough for Muur to realize his full strength. This is why he saw in Darth Vader a better potential host.

Obviously Celeste isn't as powerful as Muur.

All the abilities his host has isn't all of his own abilities, and that doesn't tell us whether he's using all of his power.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This does not make sense.

Muur takes over Celeste in full, and from this point, Muur channel his powers through her body. Celeste is just a vessel in this situation.

And it is possible that Celeste is not strong enough for Muur to realize his full strength. This is why he saw in Darth Vader a better potential host. It doesn't make sense that the force empowered host would add power to Muur's full power when he takes over?

So if Muur took completely over, there wouldn't be a vast difference in power if he used Plo Koon as a host, compared to Darth Vader?


There was no indication that it would allow him to use more of his own power. In fact, everytime he took over it was pretty much stated that he was afforded all his own power.
He wanted Vader because of his power, and because Celeste was powerful enough on her own to hold him back for so long.

I think the consensus is; You can only utilise as much power as your host's potential.

I looked through 2 issues

https://i.imgur.com/H9JDhxb.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/wpyqw2b.jpg





Here's an interesting one, which I know also happened earlier, but I didn't look through that issue yet. Celeste can draw on the power of Muur, which is common sense.
https://i.imgur.com/lzE9eym.jpg





So essentially, Celeste can draw on the power of a spirit Muur, but Muur in no way can draw on the power of the real life body of Celeste that has a lot of force in herself? So basically, all her natural power goes away and any power is entirely Muur's own?
Or are you arguing that Muur can only drop in minute amounts of power because her essence isn't powerful enough? Which would still be saying that it's Celeste's power mixed with (hindered) Muur? Which would give us no way to accurately measure Muur's power on his own. So what is it that you're arguing?

And also, where was it stated that the force potential only allows more of Muur's power to come through? Where is this fact at? Because you'd think someone who's fought off Muur's possession for years would be plenty powerful. Even when he did possess her she still regain control to a degree.

Etc. A lot of assumptions, when a simple answer is that Celeste Morne + Muur = Muur's power in that arc... this is apparently a huge grasp at logic though?

Not sure where you guys are taking this line of reasoning. When Muur was alive, he also wore the Muur talisman and had access to its powers. For Celeste-Muur to be stronger than Muur, her body would have to be a superior host to his own, which is the opposite of what is suggested. It's like saying Marka Ragnos was at his strongest when he fought against Jaden Korr, because he had "both his own power and Tavion's" to draw from.

It's not the same as Muur just outright possessing a body because Celeste IIRC is still an active agent, so we have Muur + Celeste + Talisman, assuming Muur has his own power separate from said talisman.

but vader thought a reincarnated muur would be his own master and imagines kneeling before him yet he thinks he can take celeste channeling muur

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not sure where you guys are taking this line of reasoning. When Muur was alive, he also wore the Muur talisman and had access to its powers. For Celeste-Muur to be stronger than Muur, her body would have to be a superior host to his own, which is the opposite of what is suggested. It's like saying Marka Ragnos was at his strongest when he fought against Jaden Korr, because he had "both his own power and Tavion's" to draw from. Except Muur used his amulet in life to spread the Rakghoul Plague (specualation)... if it had a use at all. The difference between it in life and death is that he transferred his entire essence into it when he "died". There's also no indication of how long he was using it in life... it's possible it was created for simply this purpose.
https://i.imgur.com/m3YKHGa.jpg


It even says he relies on powerful force users so he can use their force abilities. Couple this to when he takes over and gains new powers, and more raw power...

This just means that Muur can use the powers of the Talisman through whichever body he's possessing, and this body needs to be powerful. You're attempting to connect dots that aren't there.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's not the same as Muur just outright possessing a body because Celeste IIRC is still an active agent, so we have Muur + Celeste + Talisman, assuming Muur has his own power separate from said talisman.

The fact that Celeste has her own will makes Celeste-Muur weaker, not stronger. Since when has internal conflict ever made a Force user stronger?

As for your arithmetic there, if we were to apply the same logic to another fairly analogous scenario, we'd also have to conclude that Bilbo and Frodo were stronger than Sauron in his glory days, no?

Which is still doubtful.

This could honestly have some implications for Exar Kun as well. Should do a fireside chat about him.

The key things that hasn't been mentioned in combination yet are:

1. Celeste was able to freely draw power from Muur in addition to her own. The only "conflict" was that she chose not to do this earlier in the fight.

2. Muur did not "take over" at the end; they joined their powers in perfect unison, as is indicated by the merging dialogue.

https://i.imgur.com/2kDwXSK.jpg

This is made abundantly clear by the fact immediately after the fight, Morne is in perfect control of herself. She allowed Muur a degree of control so that they could increase their combined power.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/6JkcnYf1eSRQr3GwYaPRvzzQXoQEGC89NZDLusXPONNh3YC_J-QVqueO_3l4XlUO16s0ExjsvAg=s0

The ideas that:

1. Morne is hindered by Muur's presence, when she draw on his power freely.

and

2. Morne and Muur are capped at the "host's level", and did not combine their powers.

...is unsupported by the comic.

If someone wants to argue that:

Karness Muur body and spirit > Celeste Morne body and spirit + Muur's spirit.

You can go ahead and do that, but until you actually prove that as a rule, I am not inclined to agree that, as a rule, Muur was more powerful in ancient times than he was at the apex of the battle in Vector.

You copy pasted that whole thing from somewhere

No, I just typed it...

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
This could honestly have some implications for Exar Kun as well. Should do a fireside chat about him.
I mean his scaling over Nadd, who in 'powerless' spirit form gives weak force wielders like Amanoa and Ommin the ability to saturate Onderon so heavily in the dark side that it makes Jedi hardly able to think and army-bust thousands of Beast Riders, is enough to make him top tier. I definitely think a fireside chat would be beneficial.

Precisely my point, it's not a given that Muur is better the same way it's a given Valk is superior to Valk+Outlander.

You're correct that the situations are similar because it involves a spirit amping someone... other than that there is nothing but differences.

If one is planning on scaling Kun based on Muur, I would offer the advice to take care in considering:

-What actually happened in the fight
-The... less than stellar condition Krayt was in at the time
-The apparently ambiguous relationship between Celemuur and ancient!Muur

Morne's latent potential seems pretty high, considering her depiction anyway. I recall her kicking the shit out of rakghouls at the beginning of KOTOR and then fresh out of a 4 thousand year coma she was giving early Vader some shit. Muur tapping into her latent potential and additionally amping it with his own power is hardly something to scoff at.

According to that logic, in fact, Morne would be such a worthy vessel that her power combined with Muur's still isn't enough to fully stretch out her limits, verifiably proving that Krayt was stalemating a Karness Muur+ character in the most horrendous condition any character (relatively speaking) has been in compared to their true power.

Again, according to the logic given by that example.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The fact that Celeste has her own will makes Celeste-Muur weaker, not stronger. Since when has internal conflict ever made a Force user stronger?

Where's the evidence they were fighting each other during the relevant feats (IDK enough myself)?

It's certainly not unprecedented for two users together to be more powerful than just one.



No, because:

1. Neither Bilbo nor Frodo could use the ring properly
2. The ring doesn't have Sauron's full power

Granted, these two points might also apply here, but it's a matter of degree. In the case of LotR it's probably something like:

Sauron (sans ring): 30
The One Ring: 70
Full Power Sauron: 100
The One Ring (that Frodo can harness): 7
Frodo: 1

But we don't know what the scale is for Muur, or at least I haven't read it carefully enough.

Is anyone actually going to tackle the actual facts that surround Muur or him never even alluding to himself having less power, or telling people that he's going to use their power as his own (and his power is theres)?

All I see is diversion tactics used in different situations under different contexts. "Ragnos, Valk, Exar, and Bilbo and Frodo > Sauron?"

A stark difference is those beings have feats on their own outside the possession. Muur transferred his entire essence into a trinket that the entire purpose is to take over someone's body who is strong in the force so he can also use their powers.
Celeste was only a faulty host because she refused to let Muur take over, not because she weakened his ability to use his power (when he did). Her power wasn't in question. Not to mention all Muur's best feats come from her being the host which is what people use to say Muur on his own is above Vader and Krayt.

That's a good little no limits fallacy on its own right there. Celeste is holding back Muur tremendously, but all of Muur's best feats come from her and the only indication that the duo is weaker than Muur on his own is Valkorion. Naturally Muur scales impossibly above that level (cue Ajunta Pall nonesense).

I wonder what the reasoning for people taking Vader's vision as absolute fact is? Vader's body allows Muur the full range of his abilities and his full power is above Sheev?

Stop making it out like we have to be 100% sure on this, otherwise it's invalid. Every accolade and showing Muur has, puts him well above Celeste.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Stop making it out like we have to be 100% sure on this, otherwise it's invalid. Every accolade and showing Muur has, puts him well above Celeste. I'm not aware of when I said I had to be 100% sure of anything. You and others appear to be believe that it's pretty close to 100% true that Muur in the flesh > Vector!Morne, yet, evidence seems to suggest otherwise. You are welcome to make your case in favour of Karness Muur.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Wait, so Valk tearing the Outlander's body apart isn't an important piece of evidence when considering how much more powerful he is, but his feats (which Mob rightly points out Muur is in dire need of sans amulet hopping) are the important bit? Interesting.

Again, I at no point said Celeste Morne amped by Muur is definitely more powerful than Muur back in the day. I'm quite sure I went out of my way to qualify my posts that way. You are saying the same thing I have already said back to me, just in defence of Muur rather than Morne.

After reviewing the evidence and Mob's contribution, I'm more inclined to think Celemuur is more powerful, due to the fact she suffered no ill physical effects from channelling the unbridled power of his essence as well as her own.

I recall someone bringing up Ragnos earlier? Let's review the state his power left Tavion's body in:


Interesting. Tavion's power skyrocketed with Ragnos' intervention and then her body was reduced to ashes once he left, because it couldn't handle his power, even "briefly".

Again, we see nothing even slightly alluding to this with Celeste Morne. Are we to assume it's just too ambiguous whether or not Muur is "far more powerful" than her or not, or can we safely assume that their power combined in a (clearly) worthy vessel is in excess of Muur's own power? To add to this, Celeste was able to draw on the talisman to prolong her own life, in addition to drawing on additional power before Muur takes over.
Plus you know, the fact that she turned to dust once the talisman was no longer amping her lifespan.

It was all positives for her minus fighting to control Muur's influence. It took no toll on her body and even made her more powerful on her own.

I will be rereading the appearances though since it's been a while. I have a nagging feeling that I'm forgetting something important.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
To add to this, Celeste was able to draw on the talisman to prolong her own life, in addition to drawing on additional power before Muur takes over.
Plus you know, the fact that she turned to dust once the talisman was no longer amping her lifespan.

It was all positives for her minus fighting to control Muur's influence. It took no toll on her body and even made her more powerful on her own.

I will be rereading the appearances though since it's been a while. I have a nagging feeling that I'm forgetting something important. I think what we can take from this is that Karness Muur in his prime was a sub-rookie suited Vader level opponent who's ability to summon rakghouls was disproportionately more powerful than any other combat abilities he had. And that even when combining his power with that of a willing, powerful host, he was at-best able to momentarily stalemate Krayt on his absolute worst day before being given a chance to cheapshot him.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/6355960-2689097340-7DiLz.png

The full power of Muur's spirit encapsulated into a Force sensitive amulet that aids in the focusing of power, is not as important as it's ability to spread and control the rakghoul virus.

xD RIP bois

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/6355960-2689097340-7DiLz.png

The full power of Muur's spirit encapsulated into a Force sensitive amulet that aids in the focusing of power, is not as important as it's ability to spread and control the rakghoul virus.

xD RIP bois
Yeah, when you can dominate the galaxy via Rakghouls, it obviously becomes more important. In combat, not really.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
According to that logic, in fact, Morne would be such a worthy vessel that her power combined with Muur's still isn't enough to fully stretch out her limits, verifiably proving that Krayt was stalemating a Karness Muur+ character in the most horrendous condition any character (relatively speaking) has been in compared to their true power.

Again, according to the logic given by that example.

Yeah, this has convinced me. Cele-Muur is more powerful than ancient Muur

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Yeah, when you can dominate the galaxy via Rakghouls, it obviously becomes more important. In combat, not really. Nothing in the Sith Artifacts section of the Jedi Academy Training Manual nor the specific section on Muur's talisman makes any mention of the utility of said artifacts in the pursuit of galactic domination, but it does talk extensively about personal power and the amplification of abilities like telekinesis. The whole section serves as a reference guide for roleplayers seeking to build their own character.

https://i.imgur.com/GDwdRHN.png
https://i.imgur.com/m4lmpkM.png

So no, on a personal combat level, not a galactic one, Muur's ability to spread and control rakghouls is more important than the power he himself possesses and can afford to the wearer of the talisman. Even his full power.

so the Muur talisman grants biological immortality?

Yes, I believe specifically she drew on Karness' power to maintain her youth.

Well, let's look at hosts here.

He literally calls Celeste a suitable host, which indicates her raw power was enough to be free. He did not know her will at the time:
https://i.imgur.com/evlM6Ql.jpg

He says another will come along STRONG in the force like Celeste:
https://i.imgur.com/y1mb3Tq.jpg


So that right there ruins the red herrings people presented. Let's delve deeper into all Muur needs of a host

Zayne Carrick:
https://i.imgur.com/GwEHlDF.jpg

Luke Skywalker would let him accomplish his goals, and later Leia would do the same as his vision, even though she's not as advanced as him:
https://i.imgur.com/XRyCix3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/T6NjxlV.jpg

Darth Vader, keep in mind he makes note of Vader's power, which would make no sense to be a benefit to him considering Zayne was a good enough host unless it adds to Muur's power:
https://i.imgur.com/kTvzUGv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/K7byKLr.jpg

Shado Voa:
https://i.imgur.com/vJoYCA9.jpg

Azlyn Rae:
https://i.imgur.com/y5Ot4hq.jpg

Draco is not:
https://i.imgur.com/sqqDBIF.jpg

Simply being in Cade's possession he already declared himself free:
https://i.imgur.com/S3gZ4nI.jpg

"Use the power of an ancient Sith Lord..."
https://i.imgur.com/Eyxs7Xz.jpg


Vader sensing the power, and using the power thinks he might defeat Sheev. Again, unless people want to argue that Muur is above Sheev, this is clearly adding his power to Vader's is enough to let Vader think he can win.
https://i.imgur.com/xr692l1.jpg



The only reason Celeste was bad was because she was too strong willed for Muur. Which is common sense really. As we noticed. Her raw power was stated to be enough for Muur.
https://i.imgur.com/Kg3UI1P.jpg


Proclaims he has slain Lords more powerful than Krayt. Why would he say this if he were nowhere near his original power? I'm not going to post the large sith lightning storms however. But Muur himself went along with their plan and everytime his red bubbling spoke, that was him.
https://i.imgur.com/8IaBLgS.jpg

Cade doesn't want the POWER the talisman can give him:
https://i.imgur.com/uAjPRkr.jpg



Also this:
https://i.imgur.com/PvnK8fw.jpg



Do I need to dig deeper or something? Nobody has given any reason why he'd be weaker than normal. In fact, I couldn't find an implication that his power wanes at all. I already posted other scans as well saying his power is theirs, and theirs his. Or of Celeste drawing on his power in combat against Krayt (and getting outmatched but I don't feel I need to show that). Etc.

Muur pooled his power with Celeste. Celeste was only stopping him from gaining control, not hindering him while he had control. Even claiming he was weaker as a spirit has no proof. The implications are that he was at full power when in control.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Vader sensing the power, and using the power thinks he might defeat Sheev. Again, unless people want to argue that Muur is above Sheev, this is clearly adding his power to Vader's is enough to let Vader think he can win.
https://i.imgur.com/xr692l1.jpg



The only reason Celeste was bad was because she was too strong willed for Muur. Which is common sense really. As we noticed. Her raw power was stated to be enough for Muur.
https://i.imgur.com/Kg3UI1P.jpg


Proclaims he has slain Lords more powerful than Krayt. Why would he say this if he were nowhere near his original power? I'm not going to post the large sith lightning storms however. But Muur himself went along with their plan and everytime his red bubbling spoke, that was him.
https://i.imgur.com/8IaBLgS.jpg

Cade doesn't want the POWER the talisman can give him:
https://i.imgur.com/uAjPRkr.jpg



Also this:
https://i.imgur.com/PvnK8fw.jpg



Do I need to dig deeper or something? Nobody has given any reason why he'd be weaker than normal. In fact, I couldn't find an implication that his power wanes at all. I already posted other scans as well saying his power is theirs, and theirs his. Or of Celeste drawing on his power in combat against Krayt (and getting outmatched but I don't feel I need to show that). Etc.

Muur pooled his power with Celeste. Celeste was only stopping him from gaining control, not hindering him while he had control. Even claiming he was weaker as a spirit has no proof. The implications are that he was at full power when in control. Wow, if the hatchet was already buried in the chest you just put a hole through the back. Very good observations. I especially like the point that Muur+Vader combined being capable of defeating Sidious is a clear example of double think, unless the Muur crowd believe suited Vader has the latent power to surpass Sidious were it only unlocked by Muur... you know Muur who per the same crowd's logic scales nowhere near Sidious to begin with...

...and were that the case anyway it would mean Krayt on his worst day in over 110 years still stalemated a century-more experienced Karness Muur/Morne combo.

Fun thought experiment, but no, Muur's full power is basically just a sentient trinket that comes attached with some haxx powers.

one big mob establishing some rep

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Do I need to dig deeper or something? https://i.imgur.com/ZYUD4bK.gif

Muurne needed to attack that Krayt - who was stunned by having a lightsaber driven through his traps - with a massive lightning attack and he still lived after being thrown off a cliff (and attacked again).

Actually not a bad feat tbh.

Yeah, I think when you've been eaten alive to the muscle and bone for 113 years by an organism that 1. is used in the building for the hulls of organic spaceships 2. can turn a normal person into a semi-sentient vong-zombie in moments and 3. burrow themselves into the deepest parts of their victims body, constantly expanding their domain, analogous to Bane's orbalisks (without any of the benefits and worse side effects)... and you have expended large amounts of energy (where lesser exertions of energy drove you to exhaustion prior)... then yeah I think stalemating a being whose power is in excess of the Dark Jedi Exiles before surviving a lightning blast and 100 foot plummet... is pretty high up on the badass Sith totem pole.

Krayt is pretty powerful, even in his "low feats".

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Wow, if the hatchet was already buried in the chest you just put a hole through the back. Very good observations. I especially like the point that Muur+Vader combined being capable of defeating Sidious is a clear example of double think, unless the Muur crowd believe suited Vader has the latent power to surpass Sidious were it only unlocked by Muur... you know Muur who per the same crowd's logic scales nowhere near Sidious to begin with...

...and were that the case anyway it would mean Krayt on his worst day in over 110 years still stalemated a century-more experienced Karness Muur/Morne combo.

Fun thought experiment, but no, Muur's full power is basically just a sentient trinket that comes attached with some haxx powers. A lot of hyperbole tbh. Same with him slaying lords more powerful than Krayt... like who?
Might as well discuss other alternatives to what people commongly bring up and have to give a little point about it. Considering people want to believe the host's power goes away and use the Vader/Sheev scene at the same time...
It might not prove Muurder can beat Sheev (I don't see it), but it does heavily imply a power stacking effect. srug
Now it seems they want to go with Morne hindering Muur and some sort of bastardization of power merging happens that is weaker than OG Muur.

But yeah, I think it's fair to say Muur + Morne > OG Muur. How much is the real question.

Enough that where previously a suitably powerful essence would injure (at times severely) the host with excessive power use, looking at Marka and Valkorion, in this case, Muur and Morne's full unbridled power didn't appear to knock on the door of any limits. So you can safely argue there was no capping of Muur's power, no corrosive effect to using it and so on, so that is effectively a power stack.

Now, something I thought about is the fact that Muur's essence could have been slowly but surely siphoned of strength over the years, in order to extend Morne's lifespan. That would imply that exertion of energy, injury and the passage of time can cause the spirit to corrode in much the same way a body might. You might also argue that the more powerful the spirit in question, the more energy that can be siphoned. Consuming or forfeiting the life energy of others in order to bolster your own is common practice among the ancient Sith, e.g Exar Kun, Darth Nox, Vitiate.

I wonder who agrees with that basic premise about spirits?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
A lot of hyperbole tbh. Same with him slaying lords more powerful than Krayt... like who?

No one. It's the standard ancient Sith spirit insult. "Oh, we were so much better in the past".

Andeddu pulled the same shit against Wyyrlok and we know how that ended.

Good point.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Now, something I thought about is the fact that Muur's essence could have been slowly but surely siphoned of strength over the years, in order to extend Morne's lifespan. That would imply that exertion of energy, injury and the passage of time can cause the spirit to corrode in much the same way a body might. You might also argue that the more powerful the spirit in question, the more energy that can be siphoned. Consuming or forfeiting the life energy of others in order to bolster your own is common practice among the ancient Sith, e.g Exar Kun, Darth Nox, Vitiate.

I wonder who agrees with that basic premise about spirits? The only things I've seen on that about Muur, was that he couldn't keep Celeste alive for another 40 centuries.

There's also this which seems to hint at two possible extensions to his power:
https://i.imgur.com/HnJsJpM.jpg


The first is being sustained by Celeste. Celeste draws on the dark side to prolong her life while Muur is sustained by her. Some sort of loop effect could be possible.

The second is him and Dreypa battling unceasingly. Which implies the talisman has figured out spirit erosion.

I think his power was just attributed to her living for 150 plus years and not the 4000 years in the Dreypa oubliette (since it was claimed he Zayne could stay there until the stars went out). Which isn't too bad to keep someone alive in Star Wars.

Originally posted by The Ellimist

1. Neither Bilbo nor Frodo could use the ring properly
2. The ring doesn't have Sauron's full power

Granted, these two points might also apply here, but it's a matter of degree. In the case of LotR it's probably something like:

Sauron (sans ring): 30
The One Ring: 70
Full Power Sauron: 100
The One Ring (that Frodo can harness): 7
Frodo: 1

I think we're on the same page for the most part, then. So, going off of the two points you brought up, the pertinent questions are, "can Frodo Celeste use the ring talisman as well as Muur" and "does the ring talisman have all of Sauron's Muur's power?"

Exactly how much power was vested in the talisman is for all intents and purposes unknowable, so I won't comment on it. I don't find it to be particularly relevant to the question of who is stronger between Celeste-Muur and Muur, besides (as both were in possession of the talisman). With regards to whether or not Celeste could make full use of the talisman's power, you're right to say that we can't really know that for sure either, since the talisman has never been in anyone else's possession on-screen for any significant amount of time. What we do know, however, is that (spirit) Muur cannot use the force by himself; he requires a living, force-sensitive host to do so. Furthermore, it stands to reason that the breadth of his powers will increase as his host becomes more powerful, which is one reason why he seeks superior partners like Krayt and Vader.

So, with that in mind, which do you think was the better vessel for the talisman's power? A, the body of Muur, the man himself, and one of the most prominent Sith Lords of his day? Or B, the body of Celeste, who was just one of the dozens of Jedi agents working under Lucien Draay, and who actively resisted the talisman's influence? I, myself, have my doubts about option B. That's not to say that it's impossible; on the contrary, it's fairly widely believed that Exar Kun was stronger when channeling his powers through Kyp than he was in life, but that's because Kyp himself was exceptionally powerful. I haven't seen anything that makes me think the same is true of Celeste.

Nothing you said addresses what was discussed on page 4 and 5, Newguy.
The power of Muur's essence would be approximate to how powerful he was in his body in ancient times (the spirit is forged in the original vessel).

Muurne is Muur's Essence + Morne's Essence in her body. Clearly, then, their spirits combined would be channelling more power than just one essence alone through that body. We know from the evidence posted prior that if too much power is channelled through a weak host, the host body will be injured. Morne never had this problem.

Therefore meaning that she can handle both her own power and Muur's with some to spare before she suffers any physical side effects; that isn't her upper limit.

Your point may have been valid if we were just comparing Muur vs Morne... but we're not. We're comparing Muur by himself vs Muur combining his power with a new host. It seems fairly obvious the latter is more powerful than the former.


As for your points about Muur's reputation being superior to Morne's and him looking for more powerful hosts... the former isn't really compelling to begin with, the latter is owed more to the fact that Muur was always seeking someone both powerful and susceptible to temptation (Cade, Krayt) rather than someone resistant to his influence (Morne), and both are irrelevant to the comparison being made anyway.

Also? We're not exactly talking about Morne when she's outright resisting Muur's power... we're talking about her when she fully accepted it, at the end of Vector. And it's not that the breadth of "his powers" become more powerful... it just means that he is attached to a more powerful host. A more powerful host can get more done in the long run.

Morne, clearly, is a "suitable vessel" who can channel his full power, and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Her latent potential could have been far higher than her initial reputation let on.

Like previously mentioned, Morne did give a little scuffle to Vader by herself before Vader stomped her. She was obviously a capable Jedi on her own.


Also Newguy seems to be under the impression that the talisman on its own was an additional amp for Muur, when the only uses for it in life were to pick up the user if he dropped, make Rakghouls, and help create and control leviathans (as we saw Dreypa do). It was not stated to be an amp for Muur. Only when Muur was in it did it become so.

So it's not a comparison of Muur with the amulet vs a force user with the amulet. It's not a simple host vs host with the amulet. It's a comparison of Muur's power while living to a force user empowered by Muur's entire essence in an amulet. It's quite a difference than what Newguy is saying.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Nothing in the Sith Artifacts section of the Jedi Academy Training Manual nor the specific section on Muur's talisman makes any mention of the utility of said artifacts in the pursuit of galactic domination, but it does talk extensively about personal power and the amplification of abilities like telekinesis. The whole section serves as a reference guide for roleplayers seeking to build their own character.

https://i.imgur.com/GDwdRHN.png
https://i.imgur.com/m4lmpkM.png

So no, on a personal combat level, not a galactic one, Muur's ability to spread and control rakghouls is more important than the power he himself possesses and can afford to the wearer of the talisman. Even his full power.

Also a very highly important post.

"More important than a user being controlled and empowered by an above Vader/Krayt being is the Rakghoul Plague."

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Nothing you said addresses what was discussed on page 4 and 5, Newguy.

That makes sense. I wasn't addressing anyone but Ellimist. A lot of the arguments being passed around in this thread seem to be based on certain assumptions that I wasn't interested in entangling with. But this one time I'll bite, just for you, if only to clarify what I'm getting at.



I'm curious as to what you're basing this on, because that's about as far as you can get from what is typically true for Sith Spirits. To begin with, the basis for any individual's strength in the force is their biology; it's precisely because disembodied spirits lack midichlorians (and therefore a direct connection to the living force) that they always require some external source of force energy to survive and act.

For example, Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos both bound themselves to the latent dark side energies in their temples and shrines to maintain their will, and they channeled those energies through Kyp and Tavion respectively to perform feats of magic. The spirits themselves don't have inherent power; it's because that's their nature that cases like Sidious, who could persist for months independent of an anchor, are so abnormal and impressive. I propose that Karness Muur's case is most consistent with Exar's and Marka's; he bound himself to the latent dark side energies of his amulet to maintain his will, and he channels those energies through the amulet's bearer in order to perform feats of magic.

In other words, our disagreement here is on the fundamentals, which is why I didn't bother addressing it earlier. Your argument is predicated on the theory that the Muur Talisman is fueled by the power of Karness Muur's spirit, whereas my argument is predicated on the theory that Karness Muur's spirit is fueled by the power of the Muur Talisman. Under my line of reasoning--supposing that I haven't gotten it wrong somewhere--the power of the Muur Talisman itself would not have changed between when Muur used it and when Celeste used it, making a comparison between Muur and Celeste-Muur a direct comparison between Celeste's and Muur's respective Force sensitivities. As for whatever you were saying about channeling twin spirits or something, I have no answer to that; it isn't compatible with my conception of how the Force works whatsoever.



As for this, I do believe I made a point of mentioning that Celeste's latent potential being greater than Muur's wasn't impossible. That being said, there's a difference between a claim being plausible and a claim being convincing. In any case, I'm not trying to say that Muur's strength in the Force is much greater than Celeste's on the basis of their respective reputations, but rather that I find the reverse to be unlikely.

this is the most words i've ever seen newguy post

Believe it or not, my tendency is to be fairly wordy when I'm talking about something I find even mildly interesting.

yeah keep mansplaining like everyone needs to stop and listen to your white male babble

Originally posted by One Big Mob
It doesn't make sense that the force empowered host would add power to Muur's full power when he takes over?

So if Muur took completely over, there wouldn't be a vast difference in power if he used Plo Koon as a host, compared to Darth Vader?


There was no indication that it would allow him to use more of his own power. In fact, everytime he took over it was pretty much stated that he was afforded all his own power.
He wanted Vader because of his power, and because Celeste was powerful enough on her own to hold him back for so long.
A Sith spirit needs access to a living host to manifest its powers. It cannot even retain its presence without a suitable anchor (i.e. structure OR artifact - strong in the Dark Side) due to its unnatural form and pull of the void. Muur Talisman was the anchor for Karness Muur's spirit.

Muur Talisman make it possible for Muur's spirit to possess a host and use the host's body to manifest his powers afterwards. Celeste Morne, being a well-trained Jedi, is able to hold Muur's spirit at bay with her willpower but she allowed Muur to manifest his powers through her body in her fight with Darth Krayt. Not sure if this was the case of augmentation or temporary possession. I am assuming the latter but I am willing to see arguments to the contrary.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'm curious as to what you're basing this on, because that's about as far as you can get from what is typically true for Sith Spirits. To begin with, the basis for any individual's strength in the force is their biology; it's precisely because disembodied spirits lack midichlorians (and therefore a direct connection to the living force) that they always require some external source of force energy to survive and act.Sith Spirits are less effective in combat by themselves because they have no physical medium to use to interact with the world. That's all. But the power is in the spirit: case in point, Palpatine's clone bodies can handle his full power fairly well, but if he tries to use his full power through a weaker host like Jeng Droga or Brand, their bodies will be overwhelmed by his power in short order.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
it's because that's their nature that cases like Sidious, who could persist for months independent of an anchor, are so abnormal and impressive. It was precisely because Sidious' spirit was so powerful that he 1. had caused his original and clone bodies to be consumed by his use of the dark side despite having many different forms of healing at his disposal (granted the clone bodies had genetic defects), and 2. he was able to persist in the vacuum of space for a year* and was stated to be capable of resisting the pull of the void "forever" - Sidious had become such a powerful nexus in of himself he had become an anchor. He was "no longer defined by his physical form" - his physical form had become an inadequate vessel for someone "more energy than flesh".

Originally posted by NewGuy01

The spirits themselves don't have inherent power;That's... evidently not true. Every Force user's "power" resides in the spirit. Their bodies are just vessels through which they express that power. This is reiterated and supported by every source that deals with spirits. The only sources I know of that talk about spirits being "powerless" are those pointing out their lack of ability to do much of anything in the physical world.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I propose that Karness Muur's case is most consistent with Exar's and Marka's; he bound himself to the latent dark side energies of his amulet to maintain his will, and he channels those energies through the amulet's bearer in order to perform feats of magic. Yeah, but the whole point of essence transfer is to transfer the essence. The essence isn't just a powerless, floating ghost. It's the "essence" of the Force user themselves, more real than their physical bodies. Force users are spiritual beings inhabiting physical bodies.

Originally posted by NewGuy01 In other words, our disagreement here is on the fundamentals, which is why I didn't bother addressing it earlier. Your argument is predicated on the theory that the Muur Talisman is fueled by the power of Karness Muur's spirit, whereas my argument is predicated on the theory that Karness Muur's spirit is fueled by the power of the Muur Talisman.With all due respect, mine isn't a theory. It's a verifiable fact that the essence carries the true power of a Force user, and that power isn't suddenly lost just because the essence is transferred somewhere else. The need for an anchor for Muur's spirit is that he cannot resist the pull of the void without one.

Originally posted by NewGuy01 Under my line of reasoning--supposing that I haven't gotten it wrong somewhere--the power of the Muur Talisman itself would not have changed between when Muur used it and when Celeste used it, making a comparison between Muur and Celeste-Muur a direct comparison between Celeste's and Muur's respective Force sensitivities. As for whatever you were saying about channeling twin spirits or something, I have no answer to that; it isn't compatible with my conception of how the Force works whatsoever.Yes, the Muur talisman being a fixed variable is true. That much I agree with.



Originally posted by NewGuy01 As for this, I do believe I made a point of mentioning that Celeste's latent potential being greater than Muur's wasn't impossible. That being said, there's a difference between a claim being plausible and a claim being convincing. In any case, I'm not trying to say that Muur's strength in the Force is much greater than Celeste's on the basis of their respective reputations, but rather that I find the reverse to be unlikely. Welp, it won't matter until we agree on whether or not an essence carries with it inherent power or is just a powerless, floating intelligence.

I wonder if NewGuy remembers when he and I discussed Anakin vs. Dooku 5 years ago in the chatbox on his own forum that he had made after being exiled from SWF he good times

'course I do. I wasn't exiled from SWF at that point, though.

The memories man

Originally posted by NewGuy01
'course I do. I wasn't exiled from SWF at that point, though.
https://www.kanyetothe.com/forum/Smileys/default/U9bGRy9.png

Are we ever gonna play Borderlands again https://www.kanyetothe.com/forum/Smileys/default/HWaQd6Z.png

Only if you ****ers do a BL2 playthrough

Preferably on Xbox one

Preferably on PC you mean

shouldn't these fireside chats have safe spaces for womyn and marginalized minorities?

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Preferably on PC you mean
You finally got something else than that stupid chromebook? https://www.kanyetothe.com/forum/Smileys/default/3w2MWDX.png

PS4 crew where ya at https://www.kanyetothe.com/forum/Smileys/default/HWaQd6Z.png

PS4 ftw

>Literally confirmed by Veitch to be more powerful in TOTJ than he 'ever' was in JA.
>"It's widely believed that Kun is stronger as a spirit via Kyp."

Fvcking kill me.

Gladly. What's your address?

raped lol

Oh, you should know, it's the apartment just down the street from your hostel.

KEK

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Sith Spirits are less effective in combat by themselves because they have no physical medium to use to interact with the world. That's all. But the power is in the spirit: case in point, Palpatine's clone bodies can handle his full power fairly well, but if he tries to use his full power through a weaker host like Jeng Droga or Brand, their bodies will be overwhelmed by his power in short order.
Sith Spirit is essentially a preserved field of conscious of the original being; the entity is fully aware of its surroundings and have full knowledge of the powers learned during the course of life. However, a Sith Spirit is virtually powerless in the absence of a physical body or another form of external aid.

When a Sith Spirit re-acquire a living body, the resultant Sith Lord can - in theory - do everything what he could do with his original body. However, the re-acquired body might not be as strong as the original body and therefore not as effective.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
It was precisely because Sidious' spirit was so powerful that he 1. had caused his original and clone bodies to be consumed by his use of the dark side despite having many different forms of healing at his disposal (granted the clone bodies had genetic defects), and 2. he was able to persist in the vacuum of space for a year* and was stated to be capable of resisting the pull of the void "forever" - Sidious had become such a powerful nexus in of himself he had become an anchor. He was "no longer defined by his physical form" - his physical form had become an inadequate vessel for someone "more energy than flesh".
1. Palpatine's Spirit could not resist pull of the void for indefinite period.

"The Emperor continued his galaxy gun attacks but it was becoming more and more obvious that his cloned body would not live much longer. Without a new body he would be resigned to utter madness beyond death."

From (Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire)

2. Palpatine's Spirit was able to exist in vacuum for about a year due to his powerful physic connection with Jeng Droga.

"Sharing an acute physic connection with Palpatine, Droga supervised the other Hands and guarded the Emperor's yacht, Emperor's Shadow."

From (Star Wars Gamer 5: The Emperor's Pawns)

&

"Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body. The infusion of Palpatine's overwhelming dark side energies reduced Jeng to incoherent madness. Eventually, Palpatine's Grand Vizier was able to find Droga and tear the Emperor's essence from Droga's body. Once again, Droga had saved his master."

From (Star Wars Gamer 5: The Emperor's Pawns)

Droga was the original FAIL-SAFE to cheat death, just in case.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
That's... evidently not true. Every Force user's "power" resides in the spirit. Their bodies are just vessels through which they express that power. This is reiterated and supported by every source that deals with spirits. The only sources I know of that talk about spirits being "powerless" are those pointing out their lack of ability to do much of anything in the physical world.

Yeah, but the whole point of essence transfer is to transfer the essence. The essence isn't just a powerless, floating ghost. It's the "essence" of the Force user themselves, more real than their physical bodies. Force users are spiritual beings inhabiting physical bodies.

With all due respect, mine isn't a theory. It's a verifiable fact that the essence carries the true power of a Force user, and that power isn't suddenly lost just because the essence is transferred somewhere else. The need for an anchor for Muur's spirit is that he cannot resist the pull of the void without one.

Yes, the Muur talisman being a fixed variable is true. That much I agree with.

Welp, it won't matter until we agree on whether or not an essence carries with it inherent power or is just a powerless, floating intelligence.

This might be the member's point:

"The ability to transcend death is not exclusive to Jedi: Emperor Palpatine and the ancient Sith Lords Marka Ragnos managed to preserve their psyches after their deaths, but it seems their spiritual forms were restricted by certain boundaries and limitations. Palpatine's spirit required cloned bodies to manifest his powers; Marka Ragnos's and Exar Kun's spirits were essentially trapped within Sith-engineered temples for thousands of years."

From (Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. Palpatine's Spirit could not resist pull of the void for indefinite period.

"The Emperor continued his galaxy gun attacks but it was becoming more and more obvious that his cloned body would not live much longer. Without a new body he would be resigned to utter madness beyond death."

From (Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire)

2. Palpatine's Spirit was able to exist in vacuum for about a year due to his powerful physic connection with Jeng Droga.

"Sharing an acute physic connection with Palpatine, Droga supervised the other Hands and guarded the Emperor's yacht, Emperor's Shadow."

From (Star Wars Gamer 5: The Emperor's Pawns)

&

"Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body. The infusion of Palpatine's overwhelming dark side energies reduced Jeng to incoherent madness. Eventually, Palpatine's Grand Vizier was able to find Droga and tear the Emperor's essence from Droga's body. Once again, Droga had saved his master."

From (Star Wars Gamer 5: The Emperor's Pawns)

Droga was the original FAIL-SAFE to cheat death, just in case. I'll bite, for now.

1. Your quote substantiates my point, actually, because it states Sidious would be resigned to a state "beyond death" - the utter madness part is referring to living as a spirit, which is extremely unpleasant compared to a physical life. The Void is a tricky concept to get a handle on, but the short version is this: the void is simply what you call the place where spirits go when detached from their body. They are "there" but they also aren't "there", which is why people can't touch them. With that in mind, every source that talks about Sidious crossing the vacuum of space for a year refers to it as the void:



This is also stated in Dark Empire, that Sidious wants to avoid the forever-life as a spirit, because of how maddening it is to have no physical sensation or sense of space or time:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-07AAhawNcQs/W9xmWK7vg_I/AAAAAAAAWWc/cXIdWm1JZ5oI9j0EROt355664K4tobiFQCL0BGAYYCw/h798/Sheev%2Bspace.PNG

With that in mind, very similarly to your own quote, it's said Sidious would be forever cosigned to the Void without a physical body:


While I know all of that is tricky to get a handle on, it is simple when you understand it. So let's lay out some simple definitions:

Void: an all encompassing terms for "where" spirits go after physical death, and also describes their "state." It's also important to understand that there are different depths to the void: the surface level, where spirits/ghosts can interact with physical people, and the deepest regions, where spirits and ghosts merge with the Force, give up more of their identity, and are not observable by physical beings. Hence "the pull" of the void is being resisted. Your identity is being "pulled" apart as you are being pulled further into the Void. The reason Jedi do this freely is because they want to become One with the cosmic fabric, whereas the Sith resist that fate at all costs.

Space: in this case, space and the void are synonymous, or more accurately, they run parallel to one another. It is both true Sidious was in space for a year and he was in the void for a year: and it makes it even more symbolic that space itself is a black "void" of nothingness.

References to the bodiless/perpetual/discorporeal madness of the "void": the simple state of being a spirit is madness inducing, because of the lack of physical sensation, sense of space and time, and the fact your very identity is constantly being ripped apart at the seams without an anchor etc.

Netherworld: another word for Void, the location and state where spirits reside.

Chaos: believed to be a a region in the Netherworld/Void where Sith Spirits go to live in perpetual torment. Star Wars hell.

The point is made even more clear when you consider that Brand had to attach himself to Sidious' spirit, drag him further down into the void, and then promised that him and the other Jedi spirits would restrain him there forevermore. If Sidious simply couldn't resist the pull of the void by itself, he would not need other spirits to restrain him perpetually.

Reading the following quotes side by side should hopefully clarify my point about the Jedi Spirits and also the fact the Netherworld has different depths:

https://imgur.com/a/kOn7YXG



My point about how the Jedi Ghosts are "there" but not really "there" - well, even when they aren't "there", they are still "there". Just deeper, and more entwined with, the cosmic Force. You get a "feeling" of the Jedi but you can't actually observe them, unless they make themselves seen.

Sidious, above all else, does not want to join them in the "there but not really there" place - he resists the pull of that realm, he very much wants to be "there", not kind of, not sort of, but 100% there. He can exist in the limbo beyond life and death perpetually, constantly resisting the pull of the Void, but not if he is being restrained by other spirits.

As for your other 2 quotes... just because Sidious had a psychic connection with Droga does not mean he is tethered to him. Your quote doesn't state as much and that is not something the source material has ever alluded to. Sidious very much survived in the Void off his own merit.

Again, this doesn't contradict anything I have said. It's a statement of fact that Sidious transcended death, but that in a bodiless spirit form he cannot interact as well with the physical world. Nowhere in this quote does it state Sidious needed an anchor: there are no anchors, no organic life or Force-saturated areas of any kind in the vacuum of space, where Sidious drifted for over a year.

Also this, regarding the "there but not there" stuff:



The Jedi Spirits are not able to turn their attention away from the galaxy while the Sith/Empire are still in power. This is, quite intriguingly, why Luke Skywalker, Mara Jade and IIRC even Anakin himself appear to Cade to guide him, the same way Jedi Spirits have returned to guide others in the past. It's only in these times of need the Jedi spirits un-merge from the Void to appear before living beings.

Are people under the pretenses that the midiclorians of the host bodies has a direct impact of how much of the full power the spirit can give, and this applies to Karness Muur?
Wouldn't this either A) ignore the power of the original (effectively putting it at zero), or B) add additional power that stacks on top of the original host which can possibly lead to the full power of the spirit?
Or C) it adds nothing because the original midiclorians don't allow for a vast power upgrade, and it effectively makes the whole process pointless and the midiclorians of the host a dead end to bring up (even moreso than no evidence from Muurne points to midiclorians being a hindering factor)?

I'll probably try to simplify this a little bit after I take a poop. B is the one all evidence leads us to in this case while I do said poop. I'll simplify and expand on it in a bit though.

Here I'll try and simplify the amping a little bit:

No, I'm not speaking of the way the Sith spirit works in concert with artifacts or how it's worked for other beings (ILS is doing a good job reversing the logic used against him as far as hosts go), or how awktuallly it werks liek this. All I'm doing is explaining the Muur Talisman by basing it off of what it's shown and how it works.

The simplest and defined way it works is that it gives the wearer additional power. Absolute fact. The measure of power it gives the user is in upwards of where the power came from - Karness Muur.
What this means in the simplest terms is that while it might not prove that Muur has access to the full powers he had in life; the power accessible stacks with the wearer of the talisman. So if say Plo Koon was wearing the talisman, the additional power available wouldn't cap him at Karness Muur's level, it would theoretically grant him Muur's full power in addition to his own. Plo Koon plus Muur.
What this argument would effectively mean (the hard cap at Muur's original level), is that the more powerful the user is, the less actual power they receive from Karness Muur to get to Muur's original level. That would mean there is a lot of power still left inside the amulet that a less powerful user would make more use of. That can't be the case, and I seriously hope no one is thinking this.


It stands to reason that Muur - once he takes over - would have the highest available power afforded to him by the talisman. For all intents and purposes, he would be at full power, or able to tap into the residing powers the most.
We also know that Celeste on her own could amp off this power, yet still be considered below Krayt as she didn't fully embrace it. Once Muur took over however, he considered Krayt below him and fought on par with Krayt. He also gained potent force lightning which was a power Celeste never showed on her own.
An alternate is that is simply fills the user with a potential greater than Muur as well as it's power and their body may be able to handle it more, but that's a story for another time.

To speak of Celeste's power possibly inhibiting the full range of Muur's power; Muur stated she was both a suitable host, and a powerful one. Her willpower was not a damper on how much power she could pull from the talisman, but rather her ability to not concede to Muur's corruption or to spread the Rakghoul Plague. However, once she gave up control to Muur he was afforded even more power than what she showed, and gained powerful lightning powers. The power she wielded was not the issue, it was her willpower that stopped Muur from doing what he wanted. We saw her fight back control of her body for example, which is the only thing that was ever shown to hinder Muur in control. When that wasn't happening however, it's an assumption to claim she's hindering him as a host.


Additionally, Muur would make note of even more powerful users than Celeste. Which again, backs up the fact that it's not capped at a specific range, but rather gives the wearer additional power. Darth Vader will always be a more powerful user than Celeste. Considering we know Muur himself stated Morne was powerful and a suitable host, we know she wasn't limiting his power. Couple that with the Vader example and it again, backs up a stacking powers argument.
Otherwise, again you'd have to argue that it has a hard cap to its power (see ), and ignore that Celeste is a powerful and suitable host. If his purpose to is to simply be at his height, then Celeste's level is apparently enough. He doesn't need this additional power, unless again, it stacks on top of his Spirit's strength.


Now we'll get back to spirits a little bit. Yes it's true that the Spirit on it's own may be "powerless", or non corporeal rather. However, the Muur talisman was also "powerless" (as in amping qualities) before Muur got put in it. All of the additional strength that flows into hosts came from Muur's essence residing inside the talisman. The spirit is then merged with the user that can take over the body. The spirit is for all intents and purposes inside the body at the time, as the spirit is in the talisman and the talisman is attached to the body. Now, taken out of context as people want to do, we have the "But Karness Muur does" example that people use to put Muur above Vader. Ignoring what she actually meant by this and her immediate actions... people use this to outright state that Muur is above Vader. This leads us to a few interesting thoughts if we follow this as fact:
First off, this is Celeste stating this. Her only measure of power from Muur would be what is inside that Talisman. Which would indicate that this Sith spirit did indeed have power, and a buttload of it to be exact.
It would indicate that the power available to Celeste is the same as the power she felt inside the Talisman. Which would delete the "midiclorian force body" argument on its own.
And lastly in conjunction with the previous two, it implies that Karness Muur is at full power. If she can sense, and access the entire essence of Muur and determine he is above Vader, then it implies that her "vessel" wouldn't be limiting the power that Muur can give. Her vessel, as far as I can tell from what I gleaned from this thread, is the very thing that would hold Muur back from being at full power.

So at the very least, this would be Muur at full power as judged by some arguments of other people. Couple that with why I believe it's a stacking effect, and it becomes full Power Muur plus Celeste if people want to cling to the Vader example.



And we'll cover the Spirit Muur and host bodies vs Real Muur here.
You'll note that this argument effectively mirrors the argument for a hardcap to the host's power. What you're essentially saying is that because she is not Muur, that she can't channel his power as well, and her limit is probably lower than Muur's real body. What this ignores however, is that more powerful users would use less of the talisman's power to get to Muur's level under those circumstances. If you're arguing that they could eclipse the power of Muur due to their midiclorians, then you effectively render the hardcap null and void, and open up the gates for power stacking.
This argument would also imply that Celeste's midiclorians were actually on par with Karness Muur as when we go back to the evidence, he says again, that she's a suitable host for his power.
And of course, this argument would also follow along the lines that the original body's power is useless (which is basically arguing semantics between the hardcap point).




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We'll go back to some actual proof here to sum up why it was a stacking effect however.
Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Nothing in the Sith Artifacts section of the Jedi Academy Training Manual nor the specific section on Muur's talisman makes any mention of the utility of said artifacts in the pursuit of galactic domination, but it does talk extensively about personal power and the amplification of abilities like telekinesis. The whole section serves as a reference guide for roleplayers seeking to build their own character.

https://i.imgur.com/GDwdRHN.png
https://i.imgur.com/m4lmpkM.png

So no, on a personal combat level, not a galactic one, Muur's ability to spread and control rakghouls is more important than the power he himself possesses and can afford to the wearer of the talisman. Even his full power.




The user is filled with the power of the Darkside. The Darkside inside the Talisman is Karness Muur. This is not Karness Muur replacing the wearer's power. This is Muur adding additional power to the wearer.

Here is Celeste drawing additional power from the talisman. Again, if the argument is that she draws additional power to be hardcapped at Muur level, then this flows back into , or that she draws power from Muur, and then suddenly her original power is meaningless and it's all Muur's power from now on. She draws enough power that her original power just disappears.
https://imgur.com/lzE9eym.jpg

"Give in to Karness Muur and use THE POWER of an ancient Sith Lord to defeat a new one..."
There is no separation of his power, his spirit, or him being an ancient sith lord.
https://imgur.com/Eyxs7Xz


Again, this again shows that Muur gives her power. Power in excess of the ability to defeat Vader. "Accept my power", not "Replace your power with my own".
https://imgur.com/kTvzUGv


Vader thinks the power would allow him to defeat Sheev. Couple that with what I've stated already (hardcaps, not replacing the original bodies power), but add in that we would have now jumped from Vader and weakened Krayt level, to Muur on his own being above Sheev if it weren't the case of powers stacking.
https://imgur.com/xr692l1


And since apparently we still have to address it and still prove our point, here he calls Celeste a Suitable Host, and strong in the force:
https://imgur.com/evlM6Ql
https://imgur.com/y1mb3Tq




Again, these are all things that have been shown before, but considering all the zero proof people use of Muur himself to attempt to prove their points, it's still relevant.

So basically, the talisman gives the user additional power and is filled with the darkside that is Karness Muur. This can either be drawn from or fully accepted which would be the full power of what the talisman has. Celeste Morne on her own is powerful enough to handle what Muur can give her in Muur's own words. It's basically an additional power source that if fully drawn on will corrupt and take over the host. That's all you have to look at it as.

If however, it isn't Muur's full power being given to users, then he gives an unspecified amount of his power that stacks with the user, which makes comparisons to his original body - and Ajunta Pall as this is the entire point of proving what a badarse Muur is - useless. It then becomes completely incomparable to what Muur was in his original body and as such his original power.



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So in summation, it has to be a stacking effect. Celeste's body is strong enough to handle the power given to her. And it's heavily implied to be the full power of Muur himself, and he is never once stated to have diminished in power once he gets a host.
It is Muur plus Morne's power IMO as judged by the evidence.

I probably missed some things and connections as I got lazy and stopped re-reading the comics and what people said plus I ran out of room and didn't want to make two posts about the wild speculation that's going on here, but we'll get to that when the time cums... if I feel like it tbh (there is a lot of none Muur related evidence being used against actual proof and I'm not a fan of having to address it). I had a lot more to say, but it's just the way she goes.

I tried not to say too much of what ILS is saying as well. Think of it as a side kick to his argument. Adds to, not restates.



Anyway, Krayt stalemated Muurne until he got STABBED WITH A LIGHTSABER, so either way, it doesn't reflect badly on him.

Yeah, all in all Mob has been far more thorough than I think anyone else has been willing to on this issue. Great posts. The "Muur scaling" always came off as extremely vapid to me, and was one of those situations where those proposing were unwilling to research into or hear any inconvenient truths surrounding the nature of Muur and Morne's relationship, Krayt's weaker status at the time of the fight or simply how the fight itself panned out. The writer intentionally teased the idea that Krayt was no longer the most powerful Sith by introducing Muur, and for some reason most people thought taking that teasing to the bank as cold hard truth was some kind of viable substitute for reason and evidence.

Muur's will is contained within the talisman; thus much of his strength. However, the ability to break out of his talisman and regain physical form; even stating outright that Morne is too weak and unworthy of his power, shows that she really isn't much of a boon of any sort to his strength. In fact, the entire point of the Muur Talisman was a trap by Sorzus Syn. She pretended to give him a talisman that would allow him to escape death, but she didn't tell him he could never break out with the power his spirit would have. Morne being too weak to bridge the gap between his spirit's power and the power he would have in life only shows me that Morne really is weak compared to him in a living form.

When you add on him being a Shadow Hand to Ajunta Pall. Who doesn't even compare favorably to Tulak Hord, nevermind Marka Ragnos, it shows just how strong they must be themselves.

Some of you may know that Supernatural Encounters was just released, which is the Star Wars EU equivalent of the Silmarillion with Lovecraftian twists.

You can read it here:http://www.starwarstimeline.net/Supernatural_Encounters.htm

Anyway, it appears Luke and Krayt killed a god.

Was it always the case that Abeloth was the daughter of a god?

No, she was a normal human. That's the reason why she drank from the Font and bathed in the Pool. She wanted to be immortal.

Is that source legit?

Well, she's not a normal human according to that link, but I see now that it's not canon anyways.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Muur's will is contained within the talisman; thus much of his strength. However, the ability to break out of his talisman and regain physical form; even stating outright that Morne is too weak and unworthy of his power, shows that she really isn't much of a boon of any sort to his strength. In fact, the entire point of the Muur Talisman was a trap by Sorzus Syn. She pretended to give him a talisman that would allow him to escape death, but she didn't tell him he could never break out with the power his spirit would have. Morne being too weak to bridge the gap between his spirit's power and the power he would have in life only shows me that Morne really is weak compared to him in a living form. Let's break this down on what you should post a source on, and that is everything in bold (really everything, but I'll try and answer the only important parts you brought up).

Originally posted by AncientPower
Muur's will is contained within the talisman; thus much of his strength. However, the ability to break out of his talisman and regain physical form; even stating outright that Morne is too weak and unworthy of his power, shows that she really isn't much of a boon of any sort to his strength. In fact, the entire point of the Muur Talisman was a trap by Sorzus Syn. She pretended to give him a talisman that would allow him to escape death, but she didn't tell him he could never break out with the power his spirit would have. Morne being too weak to bridge the gap between his spirit's power and the power he would have in life only shows me that Morne really is weak compared to him in a living form.
As for the unbolded parts:

As far as I recall, the only implication that he would ever break out of the Talisman was him thinking of what he could do with Luke. However, since it wasn't actually stated (and to fall in line with the rest of his history), we can assume him being "free" simply means "free" to roam the galaxy in a body he can control. His body was dead afterall, he would need a new body in the form of a host he has under his complete control. What you're speaking of, is a wearer literally breaking him out of the Talisman and RECREATING his original body out of scratch. Now where is the source for that that actually states this?
Now I may be wrong since I don't really want to go reread the issue, but him regaining physical form would also fall under a submissive vessel, meaning he's free. A vision where it doesn't state he regains his original form doesn't change his motivations. It just shows that he was behind what the body of Luke was doing.


As for Morne being too weak... he only said that she was frail to Krayt because she came to Krayt proclaiming he was a Sith Lord while his appearance was that of a weak woman. To assure Krayt he was more powerful than his appearance led on. If all Krayt could sense was a hologram, it's best to dispell assumptions of him being a pussy based on appearance.
Her strength was more than adequate in every other encounter including that one, and the two together are what you base your wild scaling off of (you proceeded to scale Kun far above Anakin based off Muur in a different thread). The importance of that is, what if I asked you to scale Marka Ragnos above Krayt? If your first and only thought is Karness Muur, then you're using a "weak and frail vessel" as the only thing you can think of. Shooting your prized pig in the head when nothing else works. It was good enough for scaling purposes, but not good enough to assume it might actually be at full power.
I realize you're pulling the "He did that at less power so his full power must be even more powerful" card out, but not only does that have no basis, but it also flows back into what ILS stated as in why this "frail" host can channel enough power from Muur to be perceived above Krayt and Vader. It's so frail but it can evidentally handle a lot of excess power without any adverse side effects... let's shit on the host to make Muur look better!

He then went on to brag about how powerful he was and how easily he could beat Krayt when Krayt didn't give in. He didn't say "I may be weakened but I'll beat you", he stated with 100 percent confidence how powerful HE was and how he was going to beat the shit out of Krayt without speaking of any sort of restrictions on his mortal form.


We already know he thought she was suitable and powerful when he wasn't trying to manipulate others, so cherry picking things that need context isn't the best way to go about it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
When you add on him being a Shadow Hand to Ajunta Pall. Who doesn't even compare favorably to Tulak Hord, nevermind Marka Ragnos, it shows just how strong they must be themselves. Karness Muur became a full fledged Sith Lord though. He became really old since he served under Ajunta. We've no idea how he compares to him afterwards, and he became a side character that was retroactively placed in outside of statements. Using him in these conversations is not too far removed from using "Most powerful Sith Lord" in relation to anything in the timeline that came after Vitiate, but before his actual inception. You hate that though, don't you?

Simply put, we don't know how he stacked up to other Sith Lords at the height of his power, and we don't know how he stacks up to Modern Sith Lords in his original body. He's a faulty device to try and scale anything from.