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Someone on CV said that Anakin and Kenobi luring Dooku into a false sense of security by using different lightsaber techniques is still canon.

Anyone have the source or quote?

>implying Canon actually keeps track of what is published in Canon sources

I know the novel is technically still canon where it doesn't contradict the movie, but I hadnt seen the whole "form fake out" thing mentioned in any sources outside the novel. And definitely not in current canon.

ROTS Visual Guide also mentions the faking.

It was never a canon in legends, lol. Until someone was puting book aboce movie and script.

I love the ROTS novel depiction of the duel. It actually made Obi Wan seem like a threat to Dooku, especially with his use of soresu, where as in the movie he essentially just embarrasses himself.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
I love the ROTS novel depiction of the duel. It actually made Obi Wan seem like a threat to Dooku, especially with his use of soresu, where as in the movie he essentially just embarrasses himself.

The novel does a lot of that with Kenobi. His unarmed fight with Grievous is more in favor of him than the cyborg.

Wait, on that note, was RoTS ever recut from the theatrical release? Like a directors cut or an extended edition or anything?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Wait, on that note, was RoTS ever recut from the theatrical release? Like a directors cut or an extended edition or anything?

I know the original cut was over 4 hours long which from the sounds of it, honestly would've benefited the film.

The original cut no doubt exists, just hasn't been released.

Yeah, it's canon:

https://i.imgur.com/6Xk04aR.jpg
-The Complete Visual Dictionary (New Edition)

Lmao @ them just copy and pasting the text from the original. ^

That's pretty much all the "New Edition" is, tbh. Just a compendium of all the previous Visual Guides, with a few additions here and there to accommodate some of the new canon(Vader's entry mentions the happenings with Cylo from the comics, for example.)

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
The novel does a lot of that with Kenobi. His unarmed fight with Grievous is more in favor of him than the cyborg. Uh... So's the movie...?

Obi-Wan was cutting off arms left and right.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Uh... So's the movie...?

Obi-Wan was cutting off arms left and right.

Unarmed. Without the sabers.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
I love the ROTS novel depiction of the duel. It actually made Obi Wan seem like a threat to Dooku, especially with his use of soresu, where as in the movie he essentially just embarrasses himself.
Shame that the movie is higher canon, in which Kenobi was absolutely clowned

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, it's canon:

https://i.imgur.com/6Xk04aR.jpg
-The Complete Visual Dictionary (New Edition)
So a confused Dooku retreats after being tricked, and still dominates? Nice.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
So a confused Dooku retreats after being tricked, and still dominates? Nice.
It's indeed confisung. They try so hard to makes it canon, which is at least a bit pathetic. Lucas indeed intended to do that this way in the movie, as ealier version of script suggest:

OBI-WAN and ANAKIN charge COUNT DOOKU. A great sword fight ensues.
- it's what we seen in the movie; they charged at Dooku, he did well in defencing himself, but was forcing back

DOOKU lunges at the JEDI and they fall back . . .
COUNT DOOKU: (continuing) Your moves are clumsy, Kenobi . . . too predictable. You'll have to do better.
As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry.(...)
- Dooku charges at them, and they fall back, which might suggest, that they started pretending. Dooku considers Kenobi as clumsy, which is another implemention, that they were were faking.

But it shouldn't be treat as a canon, since it was deleted.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
I love the ROTS novel depiction of the duel. It actually made Obi Wan seem like a threat to Dooku, especially with his use of soresu, where as in the movie he essentially just embarrasses himself.

Tbh, this fight in Stover's version is much more similar to their final fight in TCW. Dooku's Force powers aren't much of a factor, an he defeats Kenobi with a physcial attacks, like he almost did in TCW.

And Kenobi's Soresu against Dooku is overated in that novel as well: it wasn't lack of Dooku's skill to break Kenobi's defenses, it was lack if time, as Skywalker was rejoing fight very quickly. And it would be nearly impossible to overcame Kenobi's masterful Soresu, while defending against Skywalker's masterful Djem So.

Originally posted by McP
And Kenobi's Soresu against Dooku is overated in that novel as well: it wasn't lack of Dooku's skill to break Kenobi's defenses, it was lack if time, as Skywalker was rejoing fight very quickly. And it would be nearly impossible to overcame Kenobi's masterful Soresu, while defending against Skywalker's masterful Djem So.

This is actually true. We've never gotten to see an extended amount of time where Dooku's been able to duel Kenobi without Anakin breathing down his neck with Djem So.

Many say Dooku could eventually get around Kenobi's defenses although I'm not sure if he'd tire out before hand because it'd take a VERY long time.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Many say Dooku could eventually get around Kenobi's defenses although I'm not sure if he'd tire out before hand because it'd take a VERY long time.

Well, Dooku's stamina is a bit underrated as well. He's loosing it much faster, when he's forced to meet a stronger opponent head to head. Due to his passive style, Obi-Wan wont be able to force Dooku to anyghtin. In that way, Makashi is perhaps the best form, for saving energy. It's also somwhow confirmed in that deleted part of ROTS script:
As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired.

Dooku is just that kind of enemy, who's negating all of Kenobi's strong points. His mastery over Makashi will let him to save more energy, his superiority in the Force will be helpful in that area as well. His tactical, analytical mind will also helps him against Kenobi, as Kenobi is very often to out smart his enemies.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
So a confused Dooku retreats after being tricked, and still dominates? Nice.
https://www.kanyetothe.com/forum/Smileys/default/1x3XXcC.png

Originally posted by McP
Well, Dooku's stamina is a bit underrated as well. He's loosing it much faster, when he's forced to meet a stronger opponent head to head. Due to his passive style, Obi-Wan wont be able to force Dooku to anyghtin. In that way, Makashi is perhaps the best form, for saving energy. It's also somwhow confirmed in that deleted part of ROTS script:
As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired.

Dooku is just that kind of enemy, who's negating all of Kenobi's strong points. His mastery over Makashi will let him to save more energy, his superiority in the Force will be helpful in that area as well. His tactical, analytical mind will also helps him against Kenobi, as Kenobi is very often to out smart his enemies.

I agree that Kenobi's not gonna make him expend all of his energy the way Anakin did, but it's going to take a lot from Dooku to go on the offense that would even challenge Kenobi. While I don't question Dooku's stamina I would still place my bets on Kenobi in the long run.

Well obviously in an all out with morals on Dooku would have the Force edge. However, in sabers only Kenobi has a decent chance.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
I agree that Kenobi's not gonna make him expend all of his energy the way Anakin did, but it's going to take a lot from Dooku to go on the offense that would even challenge Kenobi. While I don't question Dooku's stamina I would still place my bets on Kenobi in the long run.

Well, to be honest, I consider Dooku as a bit better duelist then Kenobi. Both have very different styles, whit different advantages and disadvantages. And both of them, were able to somehow compensate their weaknesess.

Makashi lacs kinetic power, yet dooku was able to compensates this, with his superior command of the Force - in that way I mean his Force valor skills. He was able to temporary generate enough power, to block both, Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time in saberlock. Twice in their final fight, and one of it was won by him, as he opwerpowred them both, thronw them off-balance, managed to kick away Skywalker and Force choke Kenobi. He was able to hold his own against Yoda as well.
Second thing is, Makashi's weaknes to multiple opponents - due to his mastery and experience, Dooku had no problem at dealing with multiple opponents at all.

Obi-Wan lacks a firepower, and yet, he was able to cut off Savage's arm, Anakin's arm and legs, cut Maul in half, kill Maul, cut off two of Grievous hands. His counterattacks are his weapon. But I would risk an opinion, that his counter-attcaks works mostly against an opponents that are highly focused on dominating him, put all of their efforts in the offense and underestimating him.

Dooku is no that kind of enemy. He holds Kenobi in quite high regard. More then that, Dooku's Makashi is not that kind of a style; its not like Anakin's version of Djem So (which is much more focused on offense then others people Djem So) or Maul's Juyo (or his other agressive forms/styles). Makashi is a form for dueling, and - which is very often underrated - has a great deffensive capabilities (as Dooku has shown against Yoda on Geonosis or against Anakin and Obi-Wan on IH). More then that, Dooku is a bit faster and clearly more agile then Obi-Wan. And he's really, really great in evading his opponents strikes (as he has shown in his duel with Anakin and Obi-Wan in last season of TCW).

As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired.
It was suppose to be that way in ROTS, if Anakin and Obi-wan would decide to faking Dooku. Indeed, that could be more tiring to pretend to be weaker. But it would be even more tiring for Dooku at the end, it was their goal and their strategy. That only shows, that dealing with Dooku was very hard and tiring for Obi-Wan.
Just like in their last fight in TCW: Obi-Wan could be more tired then normaly, since he was forced to attacking Dooku, which wasn't his favouirte way of fighting. But do dont forget, that it would be more tiring then usulally for Dooku as well; he had to deal with two Makashi's disadvantages - fighting multiple opponents and dealing with strong, kinetic style.

Another is, that Dooku might has superior stamina in some circumstances. Normaly, he has superior Force reserves nad his style is fery economic and enable him to save a lot of enrgy. His obvious weakness is to deal against kinetic style, which exhaust his Force reseves quite fast.
Kenobi is clearly superior to Dooku in terms of physical stamina and his Soresu doesn't share Makashi's weakness against kinetic styles; it doesn't require as much reserves as Makashi in that way.

But it doeasn't matter at all, since there is no a strong, kinetic style in that battle. And one last thing; despite all of technical abilites, Force powers and other things, Kenobi - in his heart - is a very peaceful man. Unlike Dooku, who in his heart and mind is a fencer.

It is obviously that Stover's movie books were never meant acknowledge the lore of the EU

Dooku still stomps the duo, this Anakin/Obi wank was fun, but everyone knows it's not true deep down.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Dooku still stomps the duo, this Anakin/Obi wank was fun, but everyone knows it's not true deep down.


Obviously. And no amount of excuses will change the fact that Dooku killed them both in the actual film. And easily at that.


Oh Wait...

Obviously. And no amount of excuses will change the fact that Maul killed Kenobi in TPM. And easily at that.

Oh wait...

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Obviously. And no amount of excuses will change the fact that Maul killed Kenobi in TPM. And easily at that.

Oh wait...


Oh we bringing Maul into this? Okay.

Well at least Maul won the sword fight against TPM Kenobi. And even held his own against late TCW Kenobi on multiple occasions.

Which sword fight did Dooku win against Anakin again?

Oh yeah he beat AOTC Ani

^
Well, there are suggestions in some sources, than Dooku was at least as good as Kenobi-Skywalker duo combined, before he taunted Anakin to use all of his powers.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Oh we bringing Maul into this? Okay.

Well at least Maul won the sword fight against TPM Kenobi. And even held his own against late TCW Kenobi on multiple occasions.

Which sword fight did Dooku win against Anakin again?

Oh yeah he beat AOTC Ani

Dooku was winning easily in RotS, even if we only take into account the the duo's performance after switching to 'advanced forms.' The Count lost to Anakin after he was heavily amped by his rage (which evidently took Dooku by surprise), stop pretending this isn't obvious.

Maul won the sword fight against Kenobi by getting his lightsaber cut in half huh? Looks to me like Maul 'won' by force pushing Kenobi into an obstacle that wouldn't be there in a regular match on neutral ground.

^ By sword fight I mean direct Sword/TK fight.

That said Force push is a standard part of sword fights in Star Wars, much like kicks.

Yeah yeah Maul got his Saber cut. At least he didnt lose his weapon and have to borrow someone elses to finish the fight.


Originally posted by RealistRacism
Dooku was winning easily in RotS,


Just... wow

Originally posted by McP
^
Well, there are suggestions in some sources, than Dooku was at least as good as Kenobi-Skywalker duo combined, before he taunted Anakin to use all of his powers.


We know thats not true now though. Skywalker and Dooku were pretty much already equals in the latter half of TCW.

He was superior to Kenobi sure (in an all out), but in no way was he Anakins superior in ROTS.

Yeah, luckily for Maul there was a reactor shaft nearby that he could push someone down before something else got cut in half. I love how you've made this the main focus of the debate suddenly, in the hopes of getting your badly recycled ILS talking points out there.




My reaction to anyone saying otherwise.

Dooku was flooring Kenobi, meeting both Anakin and Obi-Wan together in blade-locks, choking out Obi-Wan whilst back-kicking Anakin and then throwing the former into a railing so hard, that he was knocked out etc. This is a far more dominant display over a duo easily better than Jinn and TPM Kenobi.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Yeah, luckily for Maul there was a reactor shaft nearby that he could push someone down before something else got cut in half. I love how you've made this the main focus of the debate suddenly, in the hopes of getting your badly recycled ILS talking points out there


Nah Kenobi was already floored and disarmed before falling down the shaft. He was also overpowered in a blade lock before being pushed.

Wth? You are the one who brought Maul into this. And now you seemingly cant take it.

Recycled ILS arguments? What? These TPM Maul vs TPM Kenobi debates have been going on long before ILS was around. Ive been making these same points to the brain dead Maul haters for years.

Surprising it still has to be done after a Kenobi with over 10 years more experience still could not overpower a broken and recovering Maul in TCW. In multiple fights no less.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
We know thats not true now though. Skywalker and Dooku were pretty much already equals in the latter half of TCW.

He was superior to Kenobi sure (in an all out), but in no way was he Anakins superior in ROTS.

Do we? Once again, I've never said, that Dooku was uperior to Anakin at his best. When Anakin starts to use his inner dark and anger, Dooku is lost. But until that moment, I would say, that Dooku had the upper hand. Even during their fights during Clone Wars, I consider Dooku as somwhow superior. Aside from what Filoni says, Dooku almost never seemed to try to kill Anakin.
The only exception is their last fight in TCW, when Dooku seems to be as serious as he was when he fought Yoda, or Asajj.

And if we are going to blindly follow the authors, as we someetimes are - Nick's Gillard's levels, for exapmple - we should start to consider Obi-Wan as very capable offensive fighter, who is not in disadvantage when is going to be agressive. After all, Nick himself stated that:
His downfall is gona be agression. Obi is also agressive(..) taught by Qui-Gon, Tyranus, Yoda. It's the same line.

@Thor: He was disarmed with the push that sent him down the reactor shaft. Being overpowered in one blade-lock is indicative of inferiority, but getting your weapon cut in half isn't a big deal? I'm taking it just fine.

A broken and recovering Maul? If you're referring to their first fight on board the Cargo Ship; You neglect to mention that Kenobi was knocked out for a lengthy period of time, and straight after gaining consciousness, was thrown into crates, thrown onto the ground, and then knocked out again. How can you say with a straight face that Maul is the one at a disadvantage here, simply because he hadn't gotten used to robotic legs yet? The show never makes it clear that this supposed disadvantage was even a problem during their duel.

Originally posted by McP
Do we? Once again, I've never said, that Dooku was uperior to Anakin at his best. When Anakin starts to use his inner dark and anger, Dooku is lost. But until that moment, I would say, that Dooku had the upper hand. Even during their fights during Clone Wars, I consider Dooku as somwhow superior. Aside from what Filoni says, Dooku almost never seemed to try to kill Anakin.
The only exception is their last fight in TCW, when Dooku seems to be as serious as he was when he fought Yoda, or Asajj.




Saying that Dooku was never going for the kill is speculation though.

In TCW Movie Dooku clearly went for the kill once he disarmed Anakin on Tatooine here at 1:20:

https://youtu.be/Q6zGXR32dNE

So as early as then Anakin held well against Dooku.

Here as well:

https://youtu.be/eQATBFIZ13o

At 2:32 Dooku clearly goes for a headshot at Anakin.


Dooku probably had the edge in these fights, but they were clearly fights between peers, and not fights in which Anakin was out of his depth or anything.

And as per the official site, Anakin grew Vastly more powerful between then and ROTS.

Dooku isn't allowed to kill Anakin, this is a widely known fact. So yes, in every duel Dooku probably isn't going all out, and this isn't contradicted by instances of him 'going for headshots,' as I could easily say he wasn't going at full speed, power etc.

He's not just going to behead Anakin in front of Palpatine, and go explicitly against his Master's orders which would inevitably result in severe punishment. Dooku having edges in fights he isn't allowed to fully win is a sign of obvious superiority.

@Darth Power
Well, you can say the same about that, for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpLiiD1Gsjk
2:26 - Anakin tries to hit Ventress' head
2:36 - Anakin tries to cut Ventress in half

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFw4see3v8o
0:48 - try to cat her as well, not sure if it had to be torso or legs though

Anyway, that should be clear, that he was not going to kill her, as he tried to capture her in those both scenarios.

Some of single blows in almost every fight could be fatal, but to be honest, some people always stoped when they found some advantage. Dooku used Force lighning and TK on Anakin on Naboo, then just tured his back to him and went aent away.
He captured him in their ealier duel on Naboo. On Tatiooine, he stopped when he hit Anakin's backpack. They dueled again, Dooku Force pushed Anakin and instead of trying to use his advantage, he has shown him a holo-message.

Anyway, ehre are a speculations indeed. I just wanted to show you, that there are people that are seeing Anakin and Dooku's duels during TCW in different ways, so they can assume, that Dooku could have an advantage over Anakin in their final fight.
But that doesn't matter much, since at the end of that final fght Anakin was indeed clearly superior to Count Dooku. The only thing I'm arguing, is that Anakin was Dooku's equal from the beginning of that fight.

^ Sure but is there any evidence Dooku was ever holding back against Anakin during TCW? Its just speculation based on the assumption that Sidious has ordered Dooku not to kill him.

On the other hand was Anakin always going for the kill against Dooku? I mean he actually defeated him in ROTS without initially killing him.

Perhaps neither are supposed to kill the other. That said neither particularly likes the other, and both have shown they are at least willing to kill the other.

I cant place Dooku above Anakin at any point in ROTS tbh. Anakin had simply grown too powerful by then, and was not exactly that far below Dooku even in the clone wars. The only reason Dooku seemed competitive at the beginning of the ROTS fight was due to Anakin holding back.

It's a reasonable assumption to make, since the Count was easily superior in Attack of the Clones and early TCW. Is Sidious going to risk the life of his future Apprentice by not telling Dooku to take it a little easy? Yeah, Anakin is going to be reluctant to kill the man who cut off his arm and started the war that killed many of his comrades... This is just silly. Any time he sees Dooku, he's foaming at the mouth to start conflict, this is apparent in almost every encounter.

To really find out if Dooku was going easy on Anakin, you can just look at the performance in RotS, which you have yet to disprove was a dominant display in favour of the Count for a huge majority of the fight. This was the main point, but instead you've devolved into using TCW (a far less reliable medium) to reach a conclusion.

It isn't a baseless assumption however, which is the key point. You're pretending as if Palpatine saw Anakin as an expendable tool like Maul or Dooku himself, which is obviously false. Palpatine had been slowly gaining Anakin's trust and manipulating him for years, pulling him out of conflicts he deemed dangerous before catastrophes could happen and sending him on ones that would help his development/lead him down the dark path. He went out of his way to make sure nothing happened to his future Apprentice, so I don't know why Dooku would be the exception. There were times when he could have easily killed Anakin throughout TCW regardless, but didn't.

It doesn't matter what Sidious would have actually done, it only matters what Dooku thought he would do. And since Dooku is always portrayed as very fearful of his Master, I'm sure disobeying an order as big as this, is going to lead to thoughts in his head of excruciating torture and/or death.

He was parrying all of Anakin's strikes with the latter having Kenobi as aid.

We're using Legends stuff now? Of course Skywalker was getting stronger, as Obi-Wan was being made a fool of right before him. Doesn't mean Dooku was somehow having difficulty against Anakin...?

By framing the statement as "Anakin not yet unleashing his full power" you're implying that he wasn't willing to kill Dooku, or at least; he wasn't trying. In reality, he simply couldn't defeat him until he tapped into the dark side. There's a difference. If he was vastly more powerful as you say, the Count would have been ragdolled out of the Ship.

Screw Obi-Wan (whose not the best offensive companion anyway). Where was Dooku owning Anakin aside from the 1 kick? Dooku was backing off from Anakin the whole time.

The script by Lucas is Legends?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I cant place Dooku above Anakin at any point in ROTS tbh. Anakin had simply grown too powerful by then, and was not exactly that far below Dooku even in the clone wars. The only reason Dooku seemed competitive at the beginning of the ROTS fight was due to Anakin holding back.

Well, even Nick said, that Anakin starts as level 8 and then is moving up to level 9. And that the difference is the dark side. It was just this moment.
You can call it "holding back", doesn't matter. In my opinion it wasn't holding back at all, since I consider that as unintentional.
Dooku had his orders, he was about to kill Kenobi and lure Anakin to the dark side, by taunting him to use his anger and hate. Until he did that, everything was going as planed (since he thought that he already killed Kenobi), despite the fact, that Anakin and Obi-Wan were much more demanding opponents then Dooku asumed.
And one more thing - Dooku just kicked Anakin away with simple kick. It stined Anakin for a couple of seconds, so he was unable to help Obi-Wan. If Obi-Wan wouldn't be that lucky, he would have died there. Anakin then kiked Dooku, which seemd to be much harder in compare to what Dooku did. But Dooku did an elegant somersault, ended on his feet, ready to continue the fight.

Once again, I dont wont be misunderstood - Anakin had enough power within himself to beat Dooku, he used that and he killed him. At thhat moment, when Anakin started to use that power, he was beyond Dooku's reach, he was just stronger, more powerful. But before that, there is nothing in that fight, that suggest, that Dooku was loosing.

^ If we go by Gillard, then Anakin starts off as an 8, same as Dooku. So still dont see how that makes Dooku superior at any point.

Yes of course Dooku showed superiority when he kicked Anakin. But that was the only point in the fight he did show superiority. And I think its too speculative to say Anakin would have been finished there if not for Obi-Wan. Because he still at least had his weapon. He was in a worse floored position in TCW movie when he was vastly less powerful, and still managed to save himself.

If we ignore the novel and the script and TCW then your arguments for Dooku starting off superior work. But in the context of those other sources, I think its clear Anakin always would have won that fight, with or without Obi-Wan, and with or without Palpatines orders to Dooku.

^
Yes, they both were, I've never claimed, that the difference between them was that big. They were nearly equals, with Dooku's small advantage. But it doesn't mean much, since Anakin would anyway use his emotions and would have won. Possibly 9/10 or every single time. I'm not arguing that, I only argue, that from the start of the battle to the moment when Dooku taunted him, the Count had the upper hand, nothing more.