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This thread is to talk of Pope Francis's radical anti-Christian views and his goal to turn Catholicism into a blasphemous sanctuary religion, accepting all modern "politically correct" views.

Werent' the Catholics all ready kind of doing that themselves before Francis?

Yeah, but Francis was the first Pope to start saying gay marriage is "okay" and said hell didn't exist.

Can you provide a video or reliable quote of him saying hell doesn't exist?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Can you provide a video or reliable quote of him saying hell doesn't exist? https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/signs-times/pope-francis-and-hell

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/30/world/europe/pope-francis-hell-scalfari.amp.html& amp;ved=2ahUKEwi9wcPGkM7eAhUFBHwKHVHwABgQFjABegQIC
RAB&usg=AOvVaw3SX0A_gAJ8Kqf0Yf5wNghW&ampcf=1

This explains it, basically the Vatican was quick to cover it up. The say in his defense that it was a private conversation, but it still weird to say that despite of his views and talks about hell before then.

Sorry, Lumine, didn't see you responded first.

Originally posted by DeviantDefiance
Sorry, Lumine, didn't see you responded first. My link supports Francis believing in a hell unlike yours.

TBH that used to be more of a debate in the days of the earlier church apparently, between Hell (mainstream now), annihilationism (those unworthy of heaven just die), and universal reconciliation (errbody gets into Heaven).

Originally posted by Lumine
My link supports Francis believing in a hell unlike yours.

I tried to find a neutral one

Originally posted by Emperordmb
TBH that used to be more of a debate in the days of the earlier church apparently, between Hell (mainstream now), annihilationism (those unworthy of heaven just die), and universal reconciliation (errbody gets into Heaven).

A lot of Christians now still don't believe in Satan either.

But in both Protestantism and Catholicism, hell is a common theme

Originally posted by DeviantDefiance
I tried to find a neutral one in that case you did ok.

Thank you

I'd respect him more if he didn't tbh.

I'd respect him more if he dismantled the See and declared the Church officially done.

the See?

The Holy See. It's finna lit.

Speaking as a nondenominational Christian, I find the contrast between Catholicism and Protestantism rather interesting. I'm not a fan of the centralized power in Catholicism which has a tendency towards corruption, but at the same time there's a certain ritualistic discipline to Catholicism I deeply admire. I think something like confession for example is actually a very good practice (despite its historic abuse at some points in history where people would pay for pardons from God, forget what exactly it was called).

Originally posted by Emperordmb
ritualistic discipline These two words paired together like this make my lips curl in disgust. For some unknown reason.

I'm using more the definition of ritual that means "a series of actions or type of behavior regularly and invariably followed by someone."

In that respect the ritualistic discipline to take the time out of your life to take count of, regret, and seek to atone for your mistakes or try not to repeat them in the future is one I respect. It's something of a moral hygiene in a similar way that taking a shower or wiping your ass is ritualistic.

Yeah, there are some good ideas that catholicism develops and I agree rituals are a part of it.

Something that took me a long while to figure out (as I was raised a catholic and my curiosity for catholic specific things came late), is that the Roman Church actually aknowledges there are many contradictory interpretations of the Scriptures and they are allowed to exist within Catholicism as long as they don't clash with the core christian teachings. So there is a reasonable degree of tolerance about a number of specific beliefs.

Originally posted by DeviantDefiance
This thread is to talk of Pope Francis's radical anti-Christian views and his goal to turn Catholicism into a blasphemous sanctuary religion, accepting all modern "politically correct" views.

The Christian Chruch has been infiltrated.

Originally posted by Bentley
Yeah, there are some good ideas that catholicism develops and I agree rituals are a part of it.

Something that took me a long while to figure out (as I was raised a catholic and my curiosity for catholic specific things came late), is that the Roman Church actually aknowledges there are many contradictory interpretations of the Scriptures and they are allowed to exist within Catholicism as long as they don't clash with the core christian teachings. So there is a reasonable degree of tolerance about a number of specific beliefs.

That is pretty frightening, considering a lot of practices today weren't talked about in the Bible, that have been considered wrong and at against scripture.

Matthew 23:9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your father, he who is in heaven.

This verse has been ignored since it kinda sounds weird. But when examined it is instead not prohibiting you to call your own father, father, but instead talking about calling someone your Divine Father. This along with the priest "permission" to forgive sins, can be blurred.

Cathotlism will eventually turn into the Imperial Cult in 30k years or so.

Originally posted by DeviantDefiance
That is pretty frightening, considering a lot of practices today weren't talked about in the Bible, that have been considered wrong and at against scripture.

Matthew 23:9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your father, he who is in heaven.

This verse has been ignored since it kinda sounds weird. But when examined it is instead not prohibiting you to call your own father, father, but instead talking about calling someone your Divine Father. This along with the priest "permission" to forgive sins, can be blurred.

I think it makes sense for men to be a part of the process of forgiveness to be honest. Insults and blasphemy against God are not mortal sins, in order for a sin to be truly offensive it has to pass through humans (an offense to the Holy Spirit). It makes sense for men to participate in forgiveness because mortal sin is an attack to other men. This has nothing to do with replacing the Holy Spirit with your random priest.

There have been a lot of heresies attacked and pointed out by the Church in their time, even to this day some are shut down and frowned upon by the Vatican. This is not necessarily for teological reasons, but mostly because it divides faith and makes people stray from the path of salvation. For example, if you dismissed Catholics because they give priests "permission" to participate in a sacrament of absolution, I could easily make an argument of you reading poorly and betraying the scriptures, but for the Catholic Church that would also be a mortal sin. Ultimately, faith is about frightening decisions, otherwise you wouldn't need to believe in things you cannot see.

Originally posted by Bentley
I think it makes sense for men to be a part of the process of forgiveness to be honest. Insults and blasphemy against God are not mortal sins, in order for a sin to be truly offensive it has to pass through humans (an offense to the Holy Spirit). It makes sense for men to participate in forgiveness because mortal sin is an attack to other men. This has nothing to do with replacing the Holy Spirit with your random priest.

There have been a lot of heresies attacked and pointed out by the Church in their time, even to this day some are shut down and frowned upon by the Vatican. This is not necessarily for teological reasons, but mostly because it divides faith and makes people stray from the path of salvation. For example, if you dismissed Catholics because they give priests "permission" to participate in a sacrament of absolution, I could easily make an argument of you reading poorly and betraying the scriptures, but for the Catholic Church that would also be a mortal sin. Ultimately, faith is about frightening decisions, otherwise you wouldn't need to believe in things you cannot see.

I don't quite understand your point (not to be rude) but a sin against man is a sin against God. I am not here to point and claim someone isn't a Christian, yet pointing out possible false-teachings and bringing light to the matter. This is a controversial point so for now on I will try to be neutral on the subject, only pointing out different arguments and points of each side for you to decide the verdict. I am sorry for coming off strong at the beginning.

Well, your reaction is pretty much how the Catholic Church proceeds. When there is a controversial point over doctrine their reaction is not to point out whether people are Christian/Catholic or not, as the end goal is the well being of Faith and the Church.

To clarify my argument: a sin against Man is a sin against God, but blasphemy (insulting the name of God) is also a sin, but it's not a sin against Man. According to Jesus, a sin that is aimed exclusively towards him or the Father will always be forgiven.

Novitiate is a great movie related to this topic.

o6QrP53BEug

Originally posted by DeviantDefiance
This thread is to talk of Pope Francis's radical anti-Christian views and his goal to turn Catholicism into a blasphemous sanctuary religion, accepting all modern "politically correct" views.


I don't trust Pope Francis anymore than I trust Satan, himself. He's a slimy, lying bastard. A wolf in sheep's clothing. I've never really liked any of the popes since I'm not exactly a fan of roman catholicism but I've lost count of how many anti-christian lies Francis has told. Far more than any pope before him. In fact, I'm fairly certain that he is THE false prophet described in the book of Revelation. He's pushing hard for a globalist New World Order and he's an enormous hypocrite who hides behind his huge walls at the Vatican while at the same time lecturing Trump on the "evils of building walls." He should keep his globalist nose out of our politics. They aren't any of his f***ing business.


I fully agree with Fly here though that roman catholicism itself, not just Francis, is both antichristian and anti-bible.


Now watch as certain idiots who I won't name (don't worry, you'll see them posting their retarded accusations soon enough) say that "of course you agree with Fly since you're Fly, himself."

A lot of popes were monsters.

Why didn't God kill them?! Didn't even test them like Job.

He very rarely intervenes in human affairs, and when He does, He doesn't usually single out individuals but instead punishes large populations of evil-doers all at once (The Flood, Sodom & Gommorah, Tower of Babel, etc...).

Make no mistake though, they will be judged on Judgment Day especially those popes and others in the roman catholic church that oversaw the sick torturings and murders of the Inquisitions .

I admit though that what happened to Job was f***ed-up. However, I recognize it's not my place or my right to criticize and/or question the Creator's motives for the things He does or allows to happen. He made me and I'm quite thankful to Him for the things I do have.


Most importantly, I'm thankful that He sent me a Savior to pay the price for my sins (if I choose to accept Him, which already have) which otherwise would've damned me for all eternity.

I get not normally singling out people, but you'd think a corrupt pope would warrant it given the power a pope wielded. Especially in the past when they could condemn people to death and stuff.

Yeah, like I said, it's not my place or my right to question Him for the things He allows to happen. I mean, He stood idly by and watched while His only Son was humiliated and crucified so standing by while those popes were doing the disgusting things they were doing doesn't seem that surprising really. But, like I said, they will ultimately pay the price for it if they're not already doing it so it's not like they got off scott-free.

Originally posted by eThneoLgrRnae
Yeah, like I said, it's not my place or my right to question Him for the things He allows to happen. I mean, He stood idly by and watched while His only Son was humiliated and crucified so standing by while those popes were doing the disgusting things they were doing doesn't seem that surprising really. But, like I said, they will ultimately pay the price for it if they're not already doing it so it's not like they got off scott-free.

I disagree. You live on this world, he doesn't. It is definitely your place to question atrocities he allows to happen here. He doesn't have to live down here in the muck with the disease and war and all this stuff.

Originally posted by Surtur
I disagree. You live on this world, he doesn't. It is definitely your place to question atrocities he allows to happen here. He doesn't have to live down here in the muck with the disease and war and all this stuff.


I figured you'd disagree but it doesn't matter. My opinion still hasn't changed. He didn't create all of the muck, disease, and war. Mankind as a whole chose this path to be in complete control of its own destiny when Adam disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden. I know it may seem unfair that one man set this awful course in motion but it's true.

All of the death, disease, and evil that is so prevalent in the world can be traced back to that one historical event (yeah, I know you don't consider it history, but I do). If Adam hadn't disobeyed God then our world wouldn't be in such a f***ed-up mess and we would have had no need for a personal Savior in Jesus Christ. He wouldn't have had to die such a horrible death. In fact, there would've been no need for Him to even become human.

Originally posted by eThneoLgrRnae
I figured you'd disagree but it doesn't matter. My opinion still hasn't changed. He didn't create all of the muck, disease, and war. Mankind as a whole chose this path to be in complete control of its own destiny when Adam disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden. I know it may seem unfair that one man set this awful course in motion but it's true.

Why is murder wrong for us but not him? Surely not cuz he created us.

Also he created human nature right? And it's not like we humans created the black plague or whatever.



Well that is another thing. Why did God prefer Adam and Eve stay ignorant? Why would he even create forbidden items and place them there?

Murder is when someone is unjustifiably killed. God has never murdered anyone. We are all guilty of sinning in God's eyes. Where there innocent people who were killed when God flooded the world or destroyed Sodam and Gomorrah? Certainly, but only "innocent" according to our own sense of judgment and morality. God has a much higher standard than we do.

Yes, it is in human nature to sin but that is only because we inherited that sinful nature from Adam and Eve. Eve didn't have a sinful nature at first. She was tricked by the serpent. Adam, otoh, knew full well what he was doing when he bit into that forbidden fruit although he was coaxed by his pretty wife into going along with it.

I agree with Hovind's theory that Adam did what he did because he was afraid of what God would do to Eve whom he loved very much. Adam, imo, was basically saying to God that "whatever you do to her you're going to have to do to me also."

The black plague or any other horrible disease never would've been a thing if Adam hadn't disobeyed God. We'd all be living in a perfect world with no disease and probably no death either (well, except for the "death" of plant "life" of course which isn't really alive in the biblical sense).


You misunderstand what God intended, Surtur. It wasn't His intention to keep them ignorant. In fact, they were probably the two smartest people to ever live (besides Jesus of course) since they were both programmed straight from the hand of God. The forbidden tree in Eden wasn't the "Tree of Knowledge"... it was the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil." The only things they were ignorant about before eating the fruit was good and evil. They should've just kept complete trust in their Creator. The problem is was that Eve never actually saw God create anything with her own eyes, only Adam saw that. So, in effect, it was easier for her to be deceived than Adam which is why Satan went to her instead of Adam.


Why would He create forbidden items and place them there? Because it was a test of their obedience to Him. He wanted to give them a choice of putting their complete faith in Him or taking their destiny completely into their own hands. They chose the latter and that is why there is much pain and suffering in the world today. It's not because God doesn't care. If He truly didn't care about us then He wouldn't have sent us a Savior to offer us a way out of eternal damnation.

Originally posted by eThneoLgrRnae
Murder is when someone is unjustifiably killed. God has never murdered anyone. We are all guilty of sinning in God's eyes. Where there innocent people who were killed when God flooded the world or destroyed Sodam and Gomorrah? Certainly, but only "innocent" according to our own sense of judgment and morality. God has a much higher standard than we do.

....

Why would He create forbidden items and place them there? Because it was a test of their obedience to Him. He wanted to give them a choice of putting their complete faith in Him or taking their destiny completely into their own hands. They chose the latter and that is why there is much pain and suffering in the world today. It's not because God doesn't care. If He truly didn't care about us then He wouldn't have sent us a Savior to offer us a way out of eternal damnation.

dur

Originally posted by eThneoLgrRnae
Murder is when someone is unjustifiably killed. God has never murdered anyone. We are all guilty of sinning in God's eyes. Where there innocent people who were killed when God flooded the world or destroyed Sodam and Gomorrah? Certainly, but only "innocent" according to our own sense of judgment and morality. God has a much higher standard than we do.

God ordered babies killed tho. That's murder. How can you say abortion is murder, but not that?

Also the Christians get their sense of morality and judgement from what they believe the be the teachings of God.

You realize that if a human being behaved like God such a person would be seen as evil?



If Adam didn't need to be tricked then clearly God created him with a sinful nature right? And he apparently created Eve to be gullible as hell. Who takes anything a talking snake says at face value?



If this is true it is clear Adam wouldn't have needed to do anything. If God is willing to condemn every single person that comes into existence after Adam and Eve because of them...he would have surely condemned Adam either way.



How does this not make God sound petty? It reminds me of being in school and the teacher punishing the entire class for something one student did.



Why shouldn't they have knowledge of good and evil? Why create such concepts then?



Why does an omnipotent all knowing being need to test people? He would have known what would have happened before he even created Adam and Eve, right?

Also why was Satan allowed into the garden?

It's not like God flooded the world specifically to kill babies. Their deaths were just incidental. Let's say God did somehow protect them from being judged along with everyone else; would it then be any better that they die a much slower death by starving to death or dying from thirst?


Yeah, well... that "talking snake" was described as being the most cunning of all creatures in the book of Genesis. And, as I said earlier, it was easy to trick Eve not because she was dumb, but because she never actually saw God create anything with her own eyes. She only had God's word that He was, in fact, God. As you know, it doesn't take much to be a skeptic. Satan planted a seed of doubt in her mind and that was apparently all that was needed.

I've already answered that I believe Adam did what he did because he was scared of what God would do to his wife. He wasn't created with that sinful nature already being in him. He willingly chose to take on that sinful nature when he bit into the apple.


God has not condemned every single person in existence, Surtur. He has offered them an easy way out in His Son, Jesus Christ (who is sometimes referred to as "the second Adam". It is a free gift of Salvation. All you have to do is accept it. Don't let the catholics fool you into thinking you have to do good works in order to be saved. That is a false gospel.


That is not even close to being the same thing. As Adam is the father of us all, when he willingly chose to take on the sinful nature, we all inherited it from him. Not only that, the Bible says that the entire creation (not just humans) suffers as a result of the fall of man (Adam's disobedience). You see, the good book tells us that God put Adam in charge of tending to His creation and thus, when he made the choice he did, the entire creation suffers as a result. It was a chain reaction of sorts.


Those concepts would've still existed to God, Himself, that's why. It wasn't necessary for A & E to know about good and evil in order to live a fulfilling life.


Yes, He absolutely knew what would happen before it happened. As you say, He is omniscient. Imo, I think the problem is how we, as humans, view time vs how God does. You see, to Him, time is not linear as it is to us. He is not trapped in time as we are... He created it and thus is the master of it.


Not sure. It may've been because, as I said earlier, it was part of the test of A & E. It's also possible he may not have been officially designated as a "bad guy" yet... still not quite sure whether he was still 'Lucifer' at that point or if he had become 'Satan' yet.


No doubt you'll probably reply with something like "But God is omniscient! He should've known Lucifer would turn bad at some point."
To which I would again come back to how we view and experience time vs how God does.