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Who wins?

Classic Spiral was a monster but her stock has fallen...............sharply. Classic Spiral wins, current one gets killed.

Selene beats Spiral, regardless of version.

Unless Spiral BFRs Selene into a dimension she can't teleport herself out of, Selene should win a vast majority.

I know Spiral was seriously tough a few years back, but I never rated her as big a threat as Selene.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Selene beats Spiral, regardless of version.
How did each of them do vs PF Rachel?

Originally posted by zopzop
How did each of them do vs PF Rachel?
Selene lost. Whereas Spiral one-shotted her.

Originally posted by zopzop
How did each of them do vs PF Rachel?
Selene beat her. While smashing Rogue, Colosuss, Nightcrawler and fighting a Cerebro-using Xavier.

Originally posted by Magnon
Selene lost. Whereas Spiral one-shotted her.
If you mean when Rachel came back to kill the Lords Cardinal, Selene was explicitly weakened. Impressively, weakened Selene still tanked a combo physical/psychic assault while asleep from Rachel.

Spiral had to reflect the attack magically, which only worked because Rachel didnt notice her put the spell up.

Regardless, Spiral wont win the comparison game. Look at Rogue for example. Rogue KO'd her via drain, although Spiral's psyche was dominant, and on another occassion bounced her around like a pinball. Selene in the same situation tanked Rogue's attack, ignored the drain, and choked Rogue while draining her instead.

Spiral is great when she can get her spells off(often with teammates helping or in ambush scenarios), but I see her as a lower tier version of Selene tbh.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Selene beat her. While smashing Rogue, Colosuss, Nightcrawler and fighting a Cerebro-using Xavier.
Selene never beat PF Rachel.



Scans with proof?

Originally posted by zopzop

Selene never beat PF Rachel.




Scans with proof?
Right. Rachel didn't bond with it until some issues later. My bad.


https://postimg.cc/xNqQL9DP

Selene: "I need time-- to recover my strength"

Originally posted by StyleTime
Right. Rachel didn't bond with it until some issues later. My bad.


https://postimg.cc/xNqQL9DP

Selene: "I need time-- to recover my strength"
That's because Rachel knocked the wind out of her. She was completely outclassed. In fact, Selene was so drained from that fight that she had to feast immediately after it.

I don't think I'm explaining myself adequately here. Even if we ignore Selene's need to feed, which could totally explain her weakened state, she was still literally sleeping in bed when an out-to-kill Phoenix Rachel unloaded on her. If I hit you with a sledgehammer while you sleep, then beat you in a fight, I didn't "outclass" you.

If anything, it's impressive a defenseless Selene can eat the attack and still fight at all.

Selene beats her bloody

Originally posted by StyleTime
I don't think I'm explaining myself adequately here. Even if we ignore Selene's need to feed, which could totally explain her weakened state
Prove she was weakened! NO ISSUE leading up to the fight says so. She needed to catch her breath after she was attacked in her sleep by Rachel. That's it.


Rachel was toying with her before going in for the kill. When she got bored with Selene, she was about to crush her to death and Selene couldn't do sh|t about it. If she wanted to kill her in her sleep, she would have done so.

Originally posted by zopzop

Prove she was weakened! NO ISSUE leading up to the fight says so. She needed to catch her breath after she was attacked in her sleep by Rachel. That's it.


Rachel was toying with her before going in for the kill. When she got bored with Selene, she was about to crush her to death and Selene couldn't do sh|t about it. If she wanted to kill her in her sleep, she would have done so.
I said in the last post, we could go with your interpretation. It changes nothing. Weak from lack of food. Weak from Rachel trying to kill her in her sleep. It's irrelevant. Any way you slice it, she started off the fight handicapped. It gives us this information visually and verbally. Saying she got outclassed is ignores what's happening on panel. Again, if I take a hammer to your skull while you sleep, THEN challenge you to a duel, I didn't outclass you.

You're adding things to the scene. Rachel explicitly resolved to kill them twice, and Selene in particular, leading up to the encounter. Once in the very moment before she attacks. No where does she say "I want to toy with them first. "
Originally posted by zopzop
If she wanted to kill her in her sleep, she would have done so.
She tried and failed.

i love spiral. if we focus purely on her highest feats and ignore the times she was beat down by longshot or beaten by shatterstar, she would have a chance. her powers were and remain in some cases difficult to fully pin down and they change often. my respect thread has all dead links i'm afraid but she has wiped the floor with the xmen and obviously was capable of depowering all of the avengers. however, she is not consistent and she has also been weakened more than once. at her best she could certainly compete and maybe win. in general and factoring in all showings, i'd take selene. it's a funky match up with 2 characters who are really tough to categorize with certainty.

Logic Lessons courtesy of Styletime :


Lesson 1 : Hungry and weak vampires take power naps rather than hunt for food to bring them back to full power.
Originally posted by StyleTime
I said in the last post, we could go with your interpretation. It changes nothing. Weak from lack of food.

Lesson 2 : The same energy claw attack that was about to kill a fully conscious and actively resisting Selene wouldn't have killed a sleeping and helpless Selene.


Makes perfect sense!

Here is the full fight in context :


https://i.postimg.cc/McMYb1jC/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/wtCQW3X7/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/BL2cRspN/image.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/bdN9mXb0/image.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/sGy9r80z/image.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop
Logic Lessons courtesy of Styletime :


Lesson 1 : Hungry and weak vampires take power naps rather than hunt for food to bring them back to full power.


You're going full zop again bro. I said
Originally posted by StyleTime
we could go with your interpretation. It changes nothing. Weak from lack of food. Weak from Rachel trying to kill her in her sleep. It's irrelevant. Any way you slice it, she started off the fight handicapped.
To say "tomato, tomato". As in, it's irrelevant which it was. She started the fight weakened, as pointed out by everything in the scene.

Of course, you ignored the context of my sentence just like you ignored the context of the fight.
Originally posted by zopzop
Lesson 2 : The same energy claw attack that was about to kill a fully conscious and actively resisting Selene wouldn't have killed a sleeping and helpless Selene.
Yes, that's exactly right. You get weaker the more you're beat up. That is how fighting works.

Then again, you don't get why being sledgehammered in your sleep would compromise you for a subsequent fight, even when the dialogue explicitly states so. I shouldn't be asking so much of you I guess. I apologize.



Originally posted by zopzop
Here is the full fight in context :

You left out the part where Selene is passed out asleep as Rachel points out how Selene is "so vulnerable" before trying to kill her.

https://postimg.cc/rRF6B0kc

Zop gonna zop.

Just gonna address these points then I'm done because I'm bored with you.

Originally posted by StyleTime

Yes, that's exactly right. You get weaker the more you're beat up. That is how fighting works.

Then again, you don't get why being sledgehammered in your sleep would compromise you for a subsequent fight, even when the dialogue explicitly states so. I shouldn't be asking so much of you I guess. I apologize.


Logic Lesson 3 :
Sleeping and 'vulnerable' opponents are harder to kill than ones you fought for a few minutes.
Excellent job professor!

Originally posted by zopzop
Logic Lesson 3 :
Sleeping and 'vulnerable' opponents are harder... mmm so much harder...

Oh, zop... you naughty boy, you

https://tinyurl.com/yajtnpuj

Originally posted by leonidas
i love spiral. if we focus purely on her highest feats and ignore the times she was beat down by longshot or beaten by shatterstar, she would have a chance. her powers were and remain in some cases difficult to fully pin down and they change often. my respect thread has all dead links i'm afraid but she has wiped the floor with the xmen and obviously was capable of depowering all of the avengers. however, she is not consistent and she has also been weakened more than once. at her best she could certainly compete and maybe win. in general and factoring in all showings, i'd take selene. it's a funky match up with 2 characters who are really tough to categorize with certainty.
This is a fair assessment. Selene's magical prowess could definitely use some fleshing out, and she's definitely a vague character at times.

The tipping point for me is the Spiral just looks more vulnerable under similar circumstances. Even in her Avengers showing, she was saved by Pyro when Mockingbird and Tigra tied her arms up so she couldn't cast spells. Captain America seemed to be doing fine once her big spells were off the table. Gambit has held Spiral dead-to-rights with his staff. Nightcrawler has done the same with swords. These required team play of course, but I feel like peak Selene would/has shut the same/similar things down.

Selene did have a ridiculous, silly low in an off panel situation with Kurt, but overall, I feel like she looks more unstoppable during high showings. The life drain is a powerful option, and there is at least some precendent for her dealing with Spiral's spells. The Eye of Agamotto presented Selene as a potential Sorcerer Supreme candidate just like Spiral. I know that isn't a "feat", and Spiral certainly has more battle wizard type showings, but I just wonder what would actually happen if they both started spellslinging. If Mockingbird and Tigra's strategy is any indicator, Selene can bind Spiral's hands to prevent casting though, just like she's bound Rogue. And that's without trying to navigate the telepathy angle, which is another weird area for these two.

Just my take on it. Either way, zopzop trying to spin the Phoenix Rachel encounter as some kind of low showing is the stuff of legends.
Originally posted by zopzop

Logic Lesson 3 :
Sleeping and 'vulnerable' opponents are harder to kill than ones you fought for a few minutes.
Excellent job professor!
Do I need to explain durability and stamina to you or are you screwing with me?

some writers say she has to dance and move her arms to cast spells, and some don't. sometimes she ha magical swords, sometimes she doesn't. there is just a weirdness to spiral that makes it hard to figure out what will or won't affect her. i'd not be surprised to see the life drain fail against her because of her (classic) space/time manipulation skills. like i said, we'd need to stick to her best feats though because she does have a bunch of lesser ones and the more current spiral is simply a disgrace.

but yeah, selene is just one of those characters that brings out the zop in zop. /shrug