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If we go by Toriama scale that Whis is a 15, where is Matered UI Goku now?

9 or 10.

In Universe 7? Only Whis or Beerus should be above him.

Overall, every angel, probably most Gods of Destruction, possibly Jiren, fused charscters (Broly isn't even out yet, but him too) are above him, which is a lot of characters.

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
If we go by Toriama scale that Whis is a 15, where is Matered UI Goku now?

*mastered.

Originally posted by cdtm
In Universe 7? Only Whis or Beerus should be above him.

Overall, every angel, probably most Gods of Destruction, possibly Jiren, fused charscters (Broly isn't even out yet, but him too) are above him, which is a lot of characters.

How is Jiren above Master UI Goku, he lost badly to him.

Was talking the manga. Even without stamina issues, Jiren was out reacting auto dodge.

So Jiren beat MUI in the Magna?

He did.

The final team up against a weakened Jiren, leading to a hidden #17 being Universe 7's last fighter, went pretty much the same as the anime, except they emphasised it was all Freeza's plan.

UI is def more powerful then Jiren, he beat Jiren fair and square and ran out of time to finish him off. I would easily put him at a 13-14

The manga's rendition of MUI was a bit different than the anime's.

In the manga, Goku could only sustain it for a few pages before powering down -- likely because he was already near-exhaustion when it finally activated, and didn't have the training to wield it properly in the first place(per Whis.) Despite this, the handful of attacks MUI Goku landed on Jiren(who was basically at full power/stamina when the fight began, mind you) were enough to weaken him so tremendously that immediately afterward an exhausted BASE Goku/Vegeta could actually contend with him, and BASE Goku + Golden Freeza(also exhausted) could outright overpower him off the field. So I'd say the manga's MUI was intended to be superior to Jiren as well -- even if he was powerful enough to counter it to an extent.

That said, I'd still put MUI Goku at a 9 or 9.5. Nothing definitively puts him above Beerus at this point -- quite the contrary, actually.

What puts Beerus over him when the only feats we have of Beerus is beating a newly formed SSG Goku?

MUI was insanity, the guy was reacting without even thinking and he flicked away away what people call here the most powerful attack on DB history which was Jirens. He also then replicated all of Jirens feats with ease.

Wonder why people are excluding the anime when its canon? With that said, I would put MUI above Beerus and 2 levels below Whis. No matter how powerful Goku is or will become, he will never touch Whis level of power.

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
What puts Beerus over him when the only feats we have of Beerus is beating a newly formed SSG Goku?

MUI was insanity, the guy was reacting without even thinking and he flicked away away what people call here the most powerful attack on DB history which was Jirens. He also then replicated all of Jirens feats with ease. Beerus also casually one-shot-owned SSB Vegeta in the manga after getting mildly irritated. Also in the manga, Goku was absolutely awestruck when he watched the GoDs battling prior to the ToP, and outright stated he was still nowhere near their level.

Then we have Nagamine's comment that Goku still isn't on par with God/Beerus-level power by the time of the Broly film:



If he wasn't referring to MUI, then Vegeta wouldn't be "desperately trying to catch up" to Goku, given that they are equals if MUI is taken out of the equation. So MUI Goku is "pretty close" to Beerus-level, but still not quite there.

If Beerus has yet to master UI, how could Beerus even touch someone who has?

Beerus IS able to use an(albeit imperfect) version of UI. That was one of the reasons why he was able to outfight all of the other GoDs simultaneously:
https://i.imgur.com/WCh4am7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6o3VYD9.jpg

That said, Beerus would be able to hit Goku the same way Jiren did: he's simply powerful enough to overcome the 'untouchability' factor of Goku's MUI.

Originally posted by Galan007
Beerus also casually one-shot-owned SSB Vegeta in the manga after getting mildly irritated. Also in the manga, Goku was absolutely awestruck when he watched the GoDs battling prior to the ToP, and outright stated he was still nowhere near their level.

Then we have Nagamine's comment that Goku still isn't on par with God/Beerus-level power by the time of the Broly film:



If he wasn't referring to MUI, then Vegeta wouldn't be "desperately trying to catch up" to Goku, given that they are equals if MUI is taken out of the equation. So MUI Goku is "pretty close" to Beerus-level, but still not quite there.

You dont think MUI could one shot SSB Vegeta?

Of course he could. However, you implied that Beerus' best/only feat was beating SSG Goku, which is not the case -- his 'best' would be outfighting all of the other GoDs simultaneously, and nearly killing the lot of them with a single attack.

That said, I'm sure MUI Goku would give Beerus a damn good fight, but in the end Beerus would edge him out. Imo.

Do you think Beerus is above Jiren as well?

Imo, Beerus > MUI Goku > Jiren.

I enjoy how the manga portrayed MUI. (Very quickly, giving it wayyyy more room for growth) But in reality MUI is the wrong term because Goku has not mastered it at all.

Originally posted by bbrem123
But in reality MUI is the wrong term because Goku has not mastered it at all.

No he can't. MUI is still a completely spontaneous/involuntary transformation at this point.

That's right. In the manga and anime, Goku said he can't access it anymore.

There were differences in how he accessed it, as the anime only kicked in after he was beaten down or near death, while the manga simply randomly activated mid fight with Jiren, without requiring massive amounts of punishment.

Being unable to access it post ToP at will is the same in both mediums.

Originally posted by Galan007
No he can't. MUI is still a completely spontaneous/involuntary transformation at this point.

The third time he did it, he chose to. I could be wrong but he looked pretty in control.

They also usually show the last form can't beat the new villain. The fact Toriyama did away with it, implies a truely mastered MUI might be beyond even a Broly or Vegeto.

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
The third time he did it, he chose to. I could be wrong but he looked pretty in control. The transformation itself is involuntary. Even after the ToP(and Broly movie), Goku still cannot activate it at will.


This is confirmed in the anime:
https://i.imgur.com/xTpNG5Z.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/hGukfKB.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/auAh26k.jpg



And manga:
https://i.imgur.com/vJ5bo6Y.jpg