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Did Maul's potential decrease on being cut down on Naboo or did it stay the same?

Kenobi actually helped double Maul's limits. It didn't work for Anakin because he burned out.


Fair to say they ignored it, and we can attribute it to Talzin's magic if you're looking for an explanation. In the TPM Novel he was said to be at his peak never to get better for instance... he did!

Maul at the peak of his power is still just a sit in for Dooku.

His force potential was absolutely diminished.

1) For being cut in half.
2) And more importantly, For cutting short his apprenticeship with Sidious.

Maul's potential as of TPM is still so insignificant that he's just a placeholder for Anakin.

Originally posted by Bentley
Maul at the peak of his power is still just a sit in for Dooku. Per Sidious' own admission Dooku was a placeholder who he only put in place because he needed to replace Maul after his "death". This was established in Legends even before Maul returned to TCW.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Maul's potential as of TPM is still so insignificant that he's just a placeholder for Anakin.

Anybody would be lol

The reason I ask is because there is a Chee quote saying his potential did not decrease. Also because it is still ongoing whether or not midichlorian count overall or density determines potential

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
The reason I ask is because there is a Chee quote saying his potential did not decrease. Also because it is still ongoing whether or not midichlorian count overall or density determines potential
I'm almost 100% sure that GL said that Vader's potential had decreased after Mustafar because he was now more robot than flesh. Same prolly applies to Maul.

Also Chees quote did not sound definitive at all. He was asked about Vader being less powerful, and he replied with: Well Maul got half his body chopped off and was still pretty powerful.

So even he is equating their circumstances.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
The reason I ask is because there is a Chee quote saying his potential did not decrease. Also because it is still ongoing whether or not midichlorian count overall or density determines potential It has to be both count and density. Midichlorians are what are used to channel Force energy through. Having less of them means you can channel less Force energy. If you lose limbs, you lose midichlorians, so you lose some ability to channel the Force.

Count is only an issue when someone loses limbs. But it doesn't seem to matter at all otherwise: Yoda is very small but has a great density of midichlorians.

So yeah, I imagine Vader, Maul and anyone else who lost limbs also lost some upper Force potential.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
The reason I ask is because there is a Chee quote saying his potential did not decrease. Also because it is still ongoing whether or not midichlorian count overall or density determines potential

Total midichlorian count affecting potential would be retarded, as taller people would've greater potential than their counterparts with similar density - which would make Yoda a hilarious case.

If potential is determined by midichlorian density, then Vader (or anyone) losing his potential after losing his limbs would make no sense at all.

Lucas' explanation makes no sense and must be accepted without further rationalization. I just take the Force depends on living tissue to manifestate and I don't dare to go further than that.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver

Count is only an issue when someone loses limbs. But it doesn't seem to matter at all otherwise: Yoda is very small but has a great density of midichlorians.





Who knows, perhaps Yoda would have been vastly more powerful were he human sized.


Originally posted by TenebrousWay

Lucas' explanation makes no sense and must be accepted without further rationalization. I just take the Force depends on living tissue to manifestate and I don't dare to go further than that.


Also fair. Providing we dont just rule Lucas off.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Per Sidious' own admission Dooku was a placeholder who he only put in place because he needed to replace Maul after his "death". This was established in Legends even before Maul returned to TCW.

So Maul was the placeholder for a placeholder? Poor guy

...no, because had Maul still been alive, Dooku wouldn't have gotten the job.

https://imgur.com/a/E8eHw4g

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
...no, because had Maul still been alive, Dooku wouldn't have gotten the job.

https://imgur.com/a/E8eHw4g

By Sidious own admission he was looking for a step up, but I agree he didn't intend to replace Maul so my statement was misleading

I personally don't see any future in which Maul doesn't get "killed" before Anakin gets turned but the idea of how things would've turned sounds interesting

Edit: If the canon goes to make Sidious the creator of Anakin then I wonder how does the Maul/Anakin succession was intended to happen. Probably it'd be retconned somehow?

Is the citation even necessary? We already know that in Canon, Dooku was working for Sidious during Valorum's chancellorship, i.e before Maul's death.

I'd like one for Sidious planning to replace Maul with Dooku.

Just look at him, a public face/representation as a political figurehead, Maul is not. Now a leader as war strategy? Sure, Maul could fit that role.

Maul per every canon source I have read that has dealt with the matter was definitely slated for some kind of military-political role in the clone wars, and his tact in dealing with such matters was made pretty clear in the Mandalore arc. Maul's demonic appearance was an issue in the old EU because they were originally Sith tattoos: this was obviously retconned when he was made into a Nightbrother, hence why him appearing "demonic" has never surfaced as an issue in the new canon.

This is why citations are important.

Maul "demonic" appearance being a hinderance in a galaxy filled exotic aliens sounds like a not very well thought explanation.

Witwer definitely clarified once that the Mandalorian arc showed how he would most likely do it. There would be a puppet leader for the public face like Vizsla or Almec. But Maul would be in charge behind the scenes.

Maul is consistently called "blunt" in canon sources, Witwer and Filoni's opinions don't change that. Lmao, how did he acquire Mandalore? By forcing crime syndicates to ally with him through brute force, then used a very simple plan to take over the place (before killing their leader, a display of martial skill).

And the retard couldn't even do that right, because Grievous very nearly wiped out his forces in a single battle
Let's also not forget that the events of SoD were all Talzin's doing - to lure Sidious out - so all Maul really did was kill some gangsters and lose his whole army to droids.

Doesn't sound very Palpatine-esque to me. Dooku however; "Controlled and refined, he was an expert manipulator of situations and people, almost on a par with his dark Master."

Look at that, not a single citation.

You doubt the authenticity? Both quotes are from the Relaunched Fact Files, I took screenshots of them yesterday without taking note of the issue number. I'll find them now.

Whats the quote? That hes blunt?

Doesnt really compare to Palpatine confirming to Vader that Maul was the loss and Dooku the placeholder.

Director commentary also counts if you wana ignore Disney stuff.

They were both placeholders according to the Ep 1 Visual Guide. Let's not pretend that's more definitive than Dooku being called "better in the dark dealings" or "more subtle than the blunt instrument Maul" (paraphrasing)

It's. Not. Just. Disney. Stuff. The Relaunched Fact Files have a lot of the Legends material in there, it's just been updated with the new Canon happenings.

All overruled by Lucas (and even Filoni tbh). Lucas statements made it clear Maul was a legit apprentice.

At the very least he was a suitable back up choice if the whole chosen one thing didnt pan out.

Wtf are you talking about? He's a legit Apprentice, he's just a shittier one than Dooku.

Legitimate Apprentices can be blunt, and they can be weak relative to someone like Dooku. There's no contradiction.

"I have citations, I just refuse to show you them!"

Yeah, I've only got 80 Fact Files to look through

When I find them, you'll see them. It's comforting to see that you're not actually arguing anything, merely bitching about sources.

Why would I argue against sources I can't even read myself you utter potato?

The Maul blunt quotes? Here.

"Darth Maul was not one for subtlety and his plan to draw Obi-Wan Kenobi to him was typically blunt."

"Key to Darth Sidious' plans were the activities of his new apprentice, Darth Tyranus. Former Jedi Master, Count Dooku was Sidious' principal agent, and proved himself a subtler weapon than the blunt instrument Darth Maul had been."

I'm trying to find the issue numbers for everything I've posted, including the "dark dealings" quote. Just give me some ****ing time

That's the quote I'm trying to find in full.

I was addressing your completely different argument (and Thor's) about Maul being some skilled mastermind because he's a Sith Apprentice... but now we know that's not true. What a pity.

Top kek.

https://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-maul

"A deadly, agile Sith Lord trained by the evil Darth Sidious, Darth Maul was a formidable warrior and scheming mastermind."

Lmao. Maul, the 'scheming mastermind,' is but a "blunt instrument" compared to Dooku.

No, your quote claims Maul is a blunt instrument period. Except I have more than a few very recent sources that contradict yours, so that leaves you in a bit of a predicament.

RealistPredicaments

And what are those ILS...?

"Darth Maul was a blunt instrument compared to the surgical skill displayed by his Master's intricate plotting."

Dooku is stated to nearly be on par with Sidious in this area, Maul is nowhere near him. The 'placeholder' is more of an Apprentice than the true Apprentice

Also, Son of Dathomir is a thing.

Lmfao, so Sam Witwer quotes carry more weight than the Fact Files now. Not that any of it actually contradicts Sidious >>> Maul in terms of scheming. Sidious is teaching Maul what he knows, we all know that, but he's evidently not even close to finished.

If the Voice Actor for Dooku said that he was masterful in the art of manipulation, and a Canonical source stated otherwise, you wouldn't be taking the former as fact. The Relaunched Fact Files are basically Legends, as they reference the events on Bakura, Durge, Dark Rendezvous, Ventress in the Rattataki Arena etc. as things that did actually happen.

So forgive me for not giving a shit about what a voice actor says about their character. What a piss poor performance, I expected nothing less.

Edit: SoD is a thing, and it was all Talzin's planning. Maul did nothing but fail.

I didn't say Sidious wasn't >>> Maul in terms of scheming. I was evidently responding to this:
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Lmao. Maul, the 'scheming mastermind,' is but a "blunt instrument" compared to Dooku. Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
No, your quote claims Maul is a blunt instrument period. Except I have more than a few very recent sources that contradict yours, so that leaves you in a bit of a predicament. Originally posted by RealistRacism
And what are those ILS...? Maul, obviously, isn't a blunt instrument in TCW. May have been the case pre-TCW.

So far you have failed to prove both of your claims: 1. That Maul was going to be replaced (contradicted by many, many sources) and 2. Maul was just a blunt instrument.

Dooku and Sidious might be much better schemers than Maul (although your source saying that Dooku is seems to be predicated on the now-debunked idea that Maul has no tact), but Maul himself is a scheming mastermind.

Time to go back to the short bus kiddo.

No. Nothing you've posted contradicts that Maul is a blunt instrument compared to Sidious. Dooku is nearly on Sheev's level, whereas Maul is blunt in comparison. We can deal in semantics for as long as you like, but my purpose was to prove that Dooku >>> Maul in terms of manipulation/scheming.

Do you deny that Dooku is vastly superior to Maul in this area?

Are you capable of reading? I answered everything you just said in my last few posts.

No, you didn't. Sidious taught Maul to be skilled in all areas, but he's still a blunt instrument compared to his Master (look at the quote I posted earlier). Dooku is nearly on par with Sidious, ergo Sidious >/= Dooku >>> Maul. And again, Witwer doesn't get to overwrite Canon sources.

Are you capable of reading?

"Dooku is nearly on par with Sidious"

Wut.

In terms of manipulation. I've posted the quote, it's not hard to click on previous pages.

The thing that legitimises Maul as a proper Apprentice is something that Dooku is infinitely better at.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
No, you didn't. Sidious taught Maul to be skilled in all areas, but he's still a blunt instrument compared to his Master (look at the quote I posted earlier). Dooku is nearly on par with Sidious, ergo Sidious >/= Dooku >>> Maul. And again, Witwer doesn't get to overwrite Canon sources.

Are you capable of reading? Quote where I said Maul was comparably skilled to Sidious in manipulation? Pro tip: I didn't. I told you what I responded to. You're being retarded on purpose.

Ffs, in order for Maul to be near Dooku in this area, he would need to be at least comparable to Sidious.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
The thing that legitimises Maul as a proper Apprentice is something that Dooku is infinitely better at.

Again, the source that says Dooku is comparable to Sidious is the same source that thinks Maul is a blunt instrument. Maul isn't a blunt instrument per all of the sources I just posted, so it's entirely possible Maul is no longer outclassed.

I'd argue based on the aggregate of sources that Sidious outshines every one in manipulation hilariously, though.

"All sources" Being Witwer and Filoni.

Is it possible for one to be blunt and still a mastermind? Filoni and Witwer can't overwrite sources with their opinions. The video links you posted don't work, but the interview, Shadow Conspiracy, and Lockdown were all released before the Fact File quotes, so if there's an inconsistency we go with the latest material.

Not that it matters, Fact Files > Witwer and Filoni.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
In terms of manipulation. I've posted the quote, it's not hard to click on previous pages.
Sure he was. That's why he had that ridiculous dumbfounded look on his face just before Anakin chopped off his head, because he was such a good manipulator.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Sure he was. That's why he had that ridiculous dumbfounded look on his face just before Anakin chopped off his head, because he was such a good manipulator.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/293/670/b7d.jpg

Originally posted by RealistRacism

Not that it matters, Fact Files > Witwer and Filoni.


Lmao no.

And in terms of written sources the official site > Fact files.

Christ, you're insufferable. Maul can be a schemer, but a blunt instrument as well. One of the quotes I posted earlier does suggest that he partakes in manipulations of his own, they're just insignificant and lacking the skill of his Master's. So clearly it's not a 'one or the other' situation. Nothing contradicts his vast inferiority to the Count and Sidious in that area I'm afraid.

And with that statement Thor, I'm going to be looking at all of the quotes made by lowly voice actors and put them higher than any source you bring up, if the occasion arises when such a thing is necessary.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Sure he was. That's why he had that ridiculous dumbfounded look on his face just before Anakin chopped off his head, because he was such a good manipulator.

Your random hate aside Dooku just lacked the knowledge of how close Anakin was to the dark side by the time of their fight. He was overwhelmed by defeat because he was otherwise confident that even if he lost the fight he'd still be able to rebound due to his abilities as a manipulator.

He just lacked critical information and was overconfident.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Christ, you're insufferable. Maul can be a schemer, but a blunt instrument as well. One of the quotes I posted earlier does suggest that he partakes in manipulations of his own, they're just insignificant and lacking the skill of his Master's. So clearly it's not a 'one or the other' situation. Nothing contradicts his vast inferiority to the Count and Sidious in that area I'm afraid.




So what are your quotes supposed to be proving then? Another Maul < Dooku thread.

Mauls training clearly had much further to go before it was Cut short. Whereas Dooku had pretty much realised all his potential. And still the gap between them doesnt seem as massive as you like to make out.

But this thread is about potential. And whether TPM Maul was a placeholder like Dooku, or a legit apprentice like Skywalker.


Originally posted by RealistRacism


And with that statement Thor, I'm going to be looking at all of the quotes made by lowly voice actors and put them higher than any source you bring up, if the occasion arises when such a thing is necessary.


Not the same. We trust that chain of discussions on Maul from Lucas to Filoni then from Filoni to Witwer.

At least pre Rebels that is, when Lucas was still the top dog.

Urm... You do realise your interpretation of what happened isn't canon right?

Director's commentary has always been canon. What a random fact file says only goes so far, if it doesn't dictate how future writers and directors portray Maul.

What do you think is more likely, that future Maul directors/novelists listen to Filoni/Witwer, or read up on random fact files?

And as already pointed out the official site > fact files anyway. So Maul being a scheming mastermind is in fact canon, whether you want to fit the blunt thing in there on top or not is unto you, but him having been trained to be a scheming mastering, and him in fact being one is not disputable.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
"All sources" Being Witwer and Filoni.

Is it possible for one to be blunt and still a mastermind? Filoni and Witwer can't overwrite sources with their opinions. The video links you posted don't work, but the interview, Shadow Conspiracy, and Lockdown were all released before the Fact File quotes, so if there's an inconsistency we go with the latest material.

Not that it matters, Fact Files > Witwer and Filoni. Yes, the people directly responsible for resurrecting and writing Maul, under the watchful guidance of Lucas himself, in addition to two different story arcs and the star wars website. And you just have a fact file you haven't even posted the full context of. Describing Maul as a blunt instrument is factually incorrect. Suggesting that one sentence out of a fact file overrides Lucas, Filoni and Witwer's statements of fact, the official Star Wars website and the primary source material - the stories themselves - is utterly autistic.

Maul died and Dooku was then chosen as a temporary apprentice until Anakin was of age, its pretty black and white and I can't really see how it could be interpreted any differently tbh

now had Maul lived and Anakin come along then Maul would be a placeholder for Anakin same as Dooku was


the ONLY placeholder spot is the Sith apprentice that came directly before the Chosen One

Originally posted by Bentley
Your random hate aside Dooku just lacked the knowledge of how close Anakin was to the dark side by the time of their fight. He was overwhelmed by defeat because he was otherwise confident that even if he lost the fight he'd still be able to rebound due to his abilities as a manipulator.

He just lacked critical information and was overconfident.
https://pics.me.me/the-point-you-head-27319162.png

I'm not talking about the fight, I'm talking about Dooku being stupid enough to believe Sidious' lies. Read Stover's novelization.

If he had a fraction of the cunning his fans claim he had he wouldn't have been completely blindsided by Sidious' betrayal.

Dooku was an arrogant moron, even more so than Maul. At least Maul had the excuse of being young. Dooku was the biggest useful idiot in the galaxy. Sidious recruited him for his family name, wealth and reputation as a Jedi, not for his "manipulation skills".

Originally posted by Unbowed
https://pics.me.me/the-point-you-head-27319162.png

I'm not talking about the fight, I'm talking about Dooku being stupid enough to believe Sidious' lies. Read Stover's novelization.

If he had a fraction of the cunning his fans claim he had he wouldn't have been completely blindsided by Sidious' betrayal.

Dooku was an arrogant moron, even more so than Maul. At least Maul had the excuse of being young. Dooku was the biggest useful idiot in the galaxy. Sidious recruited him for his family name, wealth and reputation as a Jedi, not for his "manipulation skills".

Dooku was also using Sidious to accomplish his personal goals and tried to set up his replacement. Comparatively Maul was a dog on a leash.

Being unable to foresee betrayal because of sheer arrogance is how the dark side users tend to die.

Sorry, but this has just been 4 straight pages of autism. What part of the Mandalore arc and particularly SoD gave off the "dog on a leash" vibe? Per numerous sources Maul actually posed some kind of threat to the Rule of Two and was considered a "rival" by Sidious, using third party resources he put together in the space of a few months to challenge the largest military forces in the galaxy. He had a blade at Dooku and Grievous' throats.

And what did Dooku do? Capitulate as soon as Sidious yanked the leash to kill Ventress? Plot in secret to maybe perhaps one day do something about being a lapdog, only to end up dying on his knees after his delusions of grandeur were shattered?

Considered a 'rival' as in 'not on his side anymore.' The capturing of Dooku and Grievous and all the events of SoD were Talzin's doing. Maul never challenged one of the largest forces at all, he was hopelessly outnumbered by a fraction of the CIS army, got stomped and was forced to flee.

He traded one master for another, and became Talzin's lapdog. Your responses show a complete disregard for facts and evidence, and it's truly sad that you've allowed yourself to white-knight for a character who's so beneath you. Come to terms with this; Maul is blunt and a failure.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Yes, the people directly responsible for resurrecting and writing Maul, under the watchful guidance of Lucas himself, in addition to two different story arcs and the star wars website. And you just have a fact file you haven't even posted the full context of. Describing Maul as a blunt instrument is factually incorrect. Suggesting that one sentence out of a fact file overrides Lucas, Filoni and Witwer's statements of fact, the official Star Wars website and the primary source material - the stories themselves - is utterly autistic.
No. Lucas hasn't endorsed Filoni and Witwer's words. Even if that's the case, Disney has overwritten that and the Fact Files are indeed a reflection of how they view Maul. Since Legends material is referenced as actually happening, Maul has been and will be from this point forward, a blunt instrument.

Lucas' words are irrelevant if they've been overwritten, as is the case here. Disney can do as they please now, George isn't in control. G-Canon now exists in the sense that they try to stay within the parameters he set, but Disney haven't here.

@Thor

There's next to nothing of substance in your post, so it does not warrant any large response. Maul took over two crime syndicates and was gifted an army + another organisation. And without the help of said army, he wouldn't have been able to take over the Hutts. He was the third biggest superpower (maybe) but got decimated in one battle by the biggest. Multiply his army by thousands or even millions, and he still wouldn't be able to touch the Republic or the CIS.

He and his militia never rivalled Sidious. Maul became a rival in the sense that he wasn't on Sidious' side anymore, Talzin was always deemed the real threat.