Originally posted by ILikeSoy
4. They Fought Right In Front Of The Temple
So, to sum all this information up about The Dark Temple nexus:
The Temple was open, and they were were directly in front of it
It's likely the Temple was sealed when Meetra arrived on Dromund Kaas -she was nowhere near the same nexus as well. That's not to say what she faced wasn't dark, but it wasn't the same quantity or proximity. It renders the comparison between her and Luke's showing impossible.
The Temple proclaimed it was much more darkly than in the part
The Temple had became far more potent in the 4000 years since Meetra was slain. Had the exact same fight scene played out - Where Meetra fought in front of the Temple - it still wouldn't have been the same breadth of power that Luke and his team face 4000 years later.
The Sabers weren't complete fodder
The Sabers were capable combatants that were fodder against Luke Skywalker - the most powerful Jedi of all time. It also implies that 6 of them would force a fight of sorts out of a serious Luke outside the Dromund Kaas nexus. I wouldn't be putting them in threads anytime, but they weren't portrayed as armies of assassin level fodder.
The nexus wasn't as much a hindrance as implied
The two things applied to the nexus were slowing the reflexes of Luke/Jaina (never displayed it once they started fighting), and making Ben call on the force more heavily which was wearing him out. Keeping in mind they were 20 meters away from the Temple; I wouldn't try applying such minor effects to Meetra who was actually kilometers away at best at all times.
Obviously I'm not saying it wasn't a factor, just that it wasn't portrayed to effect their combat ability as much as implied. It did dull their senses to detect where the Sabers were before they appeared, however that's because they were sitting right beside one of the greatest nexuses in the galaxy, and the Sabers were rather weak in comparison. Once they knew where the Sabers were, their senses were meritorious.
None of these things were stated to be a factor for Meetra. The comparison has its faults on every stance. It's unusable to me.
The temple may have been closed to the public (though not entirely as we know Vitiate conducted rituals there throughout that era) but you have absolutely no proof that this somehow locks the nexus out of use for other people, especially since we know Scourge could draw on a lesser nexus from a greater distance.
You have no proof that the temple became more of a nexus than during Vitiate's time, just that the nexus slowly improved over the thousand years immediately before Luke's arrival. Logic dictates that Vitiate's experiments would actually make the reverse true, but either way we have strong accolades representing the TOR era nexus as at least as strong.
Yeh, the sabers are fodder.
As displayed, Surik was not kilometers away, and we already have proof that the nexus was felt as far out as two kilometers away anyway. The point of this thread was never supposed to indicate that Surik was facing the exact same conditions as Luke, Ben and Jaina, merely that the effect on a fight against one of the strongest Sith in the empire would be huge. Not to mention the fact you're plainly ignoring Surik was within the vicinity of two nexuses, not one.
In truth, your argument focuses on flat out ignoring sections of the text because you think they don't fit. 'Their senses can't be dulled because they used them later', 'Luke can't be injured as stated because we didn't see it happen', these are weak, baseless and illogical stances to take, tbfh. Take what the novel says and deal with it.
Originally posted by ILikeSoy
I might have done bad research here, but Meetra was never said to have been hindered in power by Dromund Kaas. The closest thing was it sending a shiver down her spine, but it was nothing compared to Nathema (which wasn't a Darkside nexus), or her having a tough time finding inner tranquility. I'm sure you remember her running off of Nathema, which shows the book wasn't afraid to let the reader know when Meetra was uncomfortable.
So in summation with the above points, I don't think Meetra was that bad by being on Dromund Kaas. Sure, I wouldn't say she would do as well as on say Ossus, but to what degree she would be hindered? We don't know. Her power was only ever stated in a positive light, even beyond what Revan ever thought possible. Nyriss was amped - we know that - but we don't know if Meetra's power was hindered in anyway, so you can't take some off the top and give some to Nyriss just to even the difference. I don't believe it's applicable to normal Nyriss, but we have no idea where she stands; which is where the quandary with that lies. I don't believe it's possible to either ignore this showing or use this as a jumping on point to her power being even higher off-world. The proof simply doesn't exist in my eyes. Made even more questionable by the Luke comparisons not being concrete.
The substantial problem with the Revan novel in this regard is that we never see the Exile fight Nyriss from her perspective, nor do we really see her do anything taxing with the force from her perspective. Most of the fights are from Scourge and Revan's perspective, understandable given the style of the novel, but lead discussions like this into uncertainty, hence a need to look at other portrayals of the same conditions to understand what was happening.
You're right, we know for an indisputable fact that Nyriss and Scourge were amped significantly by the novel. Pretty much every other source in the mythos states that Jedi find it difficult and harder to draw on the force on a Dark Side Nexus. Another novel even shows some of the strongest Jedi in history struggling. This is circumstantial evidence, I'll admit, but people are imprisoned for life on circumstantial evidence when enough adds up that the overall picture is indisputable. The picture here is, to be honest, indisputable. To suggest that this logic fails because we don't see fights from Surik's perspective and thus she can't have been hindered is ludicrous.
Originally posted by ILikeSoy
Which is both good and bad. Good because it's a great feat; no denying. Bad, because it shows she was operating on a fairly high level, or at least Drew had a high opinion of her power - Just not Revan level. I do agree with you that Nyriss being amped to a non-quantifiable level doesn't reflect badly on Meetra. I also believe that Drew forgot about her Force Wound enough that it wasn't a factor, so it should be safe to say it was healed. That however doesn't give us an accurate power level to me, but it does mean she wouldn't be feeding off death.
On this, and on Revan's sensing her power, I agree tbh. I nowhere in this thread stated she was Revan level, or anything close. She wasn't, I acknowledge that, and the Revan novel makes a strong argument as to her actual power levels in the eyes of Revan.
What you need to understand is that as of the Mandalorian Civil War, Vrook, Vandar and Revan all sensed immense potential in the Exile. We know via scaling chains that the Exile scales far beyond people Revan had immense respect for, power wise, before she even came close to the power levels she had in the Revan novel. We also know thanks to TOR that Scourge's opinion of her was high above his opinion of himself, yet he still thought in the novel that it would be an interesting fight.
None of these holistic portrayals line up with her feats on Kaas, and add yet more circumstantial evidence to the pile that is this case, everything points to one conclusion, and people need to stop insinuating that there's not enough evidence to make a concrete case when there's also nothing refuting it.
Anyway, interesting post. Probably the most interesting part is I now have a decent idea as to who you are