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Rules


Regarding new character proposals/votes:
So long as there is no flagrant trolling/shitposting(which will NOT be tolerated), this thread is open to everyone. IOW, any members are welcome to make new character proposals, and/or vote on the placement of existing characters, at any time. In an effort to be as neutral and fair as possible, the characters are placed on the Master List based on a majority vote. No exceptions. In order to avoid confusion/chaos, there should only be a maximum of 10 characters that are being discussed here at any given time. Once a consensus has been reached on the placement of a particular group of characters, they will be added to the Master List, then another 10 characters can be proposed, and so on. Please try to follow this format, as any excessive or out of turn proposals are likely to be ignored.

Notes:
This list is based off of total "power" in all its forms. Individual matchups might mean that someone in a lower tier could beat someone in a higher tier, but we're basing the list on average power levels in a forum setting. The tiers are defined by who is in them. There will obviously be "low" and "high" characters within a tier, but the idea is to place a character as close to their peers as possible. Put another way, there can be multiple levels within the same tier. Prep is not considered, nor is the status of a character in their respective universe. It is always assumed that the characters have access to all of their standard equipment/gear, which can(and should) play a factor in where they are placed on the list.

Definitions:
Please note that these definitions do not exist outside of KMC. They were created for a common forum vocabulary, and to give newer members a sense of the general area where certain characters are placed. Nothing more.

That said, there are not strict definitions for where one tier ends and another begins, but as a general example:
Skyfather Tier: anyone '=/>' King Thor, and '<' average Galactus. Transcendent(Trans) Tier: anyone '>' Silver Surfer, and '<' King Thor. Herald Tier: anyone '>' Iron Man, and '=/<' Silver Surfer. Metahuman(Meta) Tier: anyone '>' Taskmaster, and '=/<' Iron Man. Street Tier: anyone '=/<' Taskmaster.

Disclaimer:
As mentioned, this was created for a common forum vocabulary, and to give newer members a sense of the general area where certain characters are placed. Nothing more. Forum veterans and avid comic readers will likely disagree with certain placements, and this is expected. A perfect list cannot be made in comics, especially with so many differing opinions.

The Master List (1/4)



Tier 5 - Skyfather

Agamotto, Ares (classic/DC), Black Witch, Cyttorak, Dormammu, Gaea, Ganthet, Gog (The Kingdom), King Thor (Reigning), Mephisto, Monarch, Mordru, Nabu, Neron, Odin (classic), Rune King Thor, Set, Shazam (Wizard), Starbreaker, Superboy Prime, Superman 1 Million (Kal Kent), Surtur, Trigon, Uatu, Umar, Vishanti, Waverider, Ymir (/w/ CoAW), Zeus



Tier 4 - Transcendent(Trans)

Amazo (/w/ base set of JLA powers only), Appolyon, The Asgardian Destroyer, Blackheart, Blaze, Circe, Count Abyss, Death Urge, Divinity, The Doctor, Doomsday (H/P), Dr. Fate, Dr. Strange (classic), Eclipso, Elders of the Universe (minus Ego), Fernus, Gorr, Gray Man, H'el, Hela, High Evolutionary, Infinity Man, Insane Genis-Vell, Ion II (Kyle Rayner), Jenny Quantum, The Keeper, Magus (original), Mangog, Lord Mar-Vell, Midgard Serpent, Mogo, Mongul I (Pre Crisis), Nightmare, Onimar Synn, Onslaught, Queen of Fables, Resurrection Man 1 Million, Runner (/w/ Space Gem), Lord Satanus, Sentinel (Alan Scott), Sentry (Void/Death), Silver Age Kryptonians/Daxamites, Solusandra, Sphinx, Stayne, Strange Visitor, Sun Eater, Superman (mainstream/Rebirth), Swamp Thing, Takion, Thanos, Tyrant (depowered), Validus


*Simply put, the consensus was to keep Superman from the list for now, because a proper tier was not able to be established. His status can always be revisited at a later date if need be.

The Master List (2/4)



Tier 3 - Herald

High
Adam Warlock, Annihilus (/w/ CCR), Asmodel, Atrocitus, Brimstone, Cyborg Superman, Despero, Doomsday (DOS), Doomsday (Gog Wars), The Eradicator (Fortress Mode), Firestorm, Flash (Barry Allen, Wally West, Bart Allen), Genis-Vell, Godspeed, Grail, Grand Regent Thragg, Green Lanterns (Alan Scott, Hal Jordan, Kyle Rayner), Helspont, Imperiex Probes, John Constantine, Majestic, Maxima, Obsidian, Orion, Plutonian, Quasar, Qztr, Sentry (no Void), Silver Surfer, Sinestro, Spartan 3.0, Starbrand, Starro the Conqueror, Talisman, Thor, The Weird, Ultraman, Wonder Woman, Zatanna, Zod, Zoom (Hunter Solomon)

Middle
Abra Kadabra, Alexander Nero, Apocalypse, Baron Zemo (w/ Moonstones), Battle Beast, Beta Ray Bill, Binary, Bizarro Superman, Black Adam, Black Bolt, Blue Marvel, Cable (Full Power), Captain Atom, Captain Marvel (DC), Cassandra Nova, Cheetah, Citizen Steel, Conquest, Count Nefaria, Damage, Damien Hellstrom, Dr. Doom, Eradicator (non-Fortress Mode), Etrigan, Evinlea, The Fallen One, The General (Shaggy Man), Gladiator, Graviton, Grayven, Green Lanterns (Guy Gardner, Icon (Milestone), Jessica Cruz, John Stewart, Katma, Kilowog, Simon Baz, Sodam Yat), Hulk, Hyperion, Invincible, Juggernaut (Classic), Kang, Kid Omega, Kurse, Lobo, Loki, Maestro, Magneto (616), Magus (Post-IG), Manchester Black, Mantis (New God), Martian Manhunter, Mon-El, Mongul, Monica Rambeau (Spectrum), Moonstone (w/ both stones), Morg, Nate Grey, O.M.A.C., Omni-Man, Rachel Summers (Phoenix II), Red Shift, Sersi, Shadowman, Shaman, Skreet, Star Sapphire (Carol Ferris), Stardust, Supergirl, Supreme (original), Ultron, Void (Wildstorm, no Creation Engine power), White Martians, Wildfire, Witchfire (Demon Form)

Low
Absorbing Man, Air Walker, Angela, Animal Man, Apollo, Aquaman, Atlas (DC), The Atom, Big Barda, Blanque, Breach, Captain Comet, Cir-El, Coldcast, Cyborg, Darkness, Deadman, Death's Head 3.0, Death Metal, Dr. Invincible, Dr. Light, Dr. Light II (Kimiyo Hoshi), Dr. Polaris, Drax The Destroyer, Ebony Maw, Enchantress (DC), Enchantress (Marvel), Engineer, Exodus, Fin Fang Foom, Firelord, Flash (Jay Garrick), Frankenstein (DC), Gammid, Gilgamesh, Godzilla, Gorilla Grodd, Granny Goodness, Green Lantern (Soranik Natu), He-Man, Hector Hammond, Hercules (Immortal), Iceman, Ikaris, Isis, Jade, Jack Hawksmoor (in city), Jericho, Jesse Quick, Kalibak, Killer Frost, King Hyperion, Krypto, Lightray, Living Monolith, Loki (Ultimate), Lunatik, Madison Jeffries (BOX IV), Magik, Magneto (U), Major Force, Makkari, Man-Beast, Marrina (Leviathan), Mar-Vell, Matrix Supergirl, Meggan, Metamorpho, Mirror Master, Morlun, Mr. M, Mr. Sinister, Nico Minoru, Nimrod, Nova (Frankie Raye), Nova Richard Rider (current), Parasite, Plastic Man, Power Girl, Prime, Professor X, Proxima Midnight, Raven, Ravenous, The Ray, Red Tornado, Ronan the Accuser, Saint Walker, Saturn Girl, Selene (External), Shadow King, She-Hulk, Skaar, Skeletor, Snowbird, Solar (Gold Key), Solomon Grundy, Starhawk, Starman, Super Skrull, Stryfe, Super-Man (Kenan Kong), Superboy, Supergiant, Tempest, Terrax, Thor (Ultimate), Ultra Boy, Ultra-Humanite, Union, Vision, Vulcan, Weapon H, Wendigo, Wiccan, Winter, Witchfire (Normal), Zauriel

The Master List (3/4)



Tier 2 - Metahuman(Meta)

High
Abomination, Ares (Marvel), Argent, Artemis, Atlas, Aurora, Aztek, Baron Mordo, Batman 1 Million, Battalion (Jackson King), Bigby Wolf, Black Dwarf, Black Lightning, Black Manta, Blastaar, Blue Beetle (Jamie Reyes), BOX I (Roger Bochs), Captain Britain, Captain Cold, Corvus Glaive, Captain Marvel Jr, Captain Nazi, Clor, Colossus, Crystal, Darwin, Death's Head II, Doctor Voodoo, Donna Troy, Dracula (Marvel), Emma Frost, Forerunner, Geo-Force, Ghost Rider II, Ghost Rider (Johnny Blaze), Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Giganta, Grim Reaper, Groot, Guardian I (James Hudson), Guardian II (Heather Hudson), Havok, Hellstrike, Hercules (Mortal), Holocaust, The Hood, The Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Iron Man, Ironheart, Jack of Hearts, Jean Grey (sans Phoenix), Jenny Sparks, Juggernaut (Depowered), Karate Kid, Klaw, Living Laser, Machine Man, Man-Beast, Manbot, Mandarin, Mary Marvel, Maul, Maxwell Lord, Medusa (Inhumans), Mera, Mercer Drake, Metallo, Mimic (Exiles), Miss Martian, Mojo, Mothra, Ms. Marvel, Ms. Marvel (Kamala Khan), Namor the Sub-Mariner, Nightshade, Northstar, Ocean Master, Omen, Osiris, Pitt, Polaris, Psimon, Psylocke, Purple Man, Quake (Daisy Johnson), Quicksilver (classic), Radioactive Man, Reed Richards (Ultimate), Rulk (no energy absorption), Sand, Sandman (Marvel), Sasquatch, Sauron, Sebastian Shaw, Shadowcat, Shassa, She-Hulk, Shift, Silver Banshee, Spiral, Starfire, Static, Storm, Sunfire, Supernova, Temugin, The Thing, Thunderstrike, The Tick, Ulik, Ultimo, Uncle Sam, Vixen, War Machine, Weather Wizard, Windshear, Wonder Man, X-O Manowar, Zzaxx

Middle
Adam Strange, Aegis, Ambrose Chase, Arkon, Atom Smasher, Attuma, Balder, Batman Beyond, Beast Boy, Bishop, Blink, Blob, Blue Beetle (Dan Garrett), Blue Devil, Bombshell, Booster Gold, Captain Boomerang, Carnage, Clayface, Cloak, Corrin, Crimson Dynamo, Cyclops, Darkhawk, Darkstar, Death's Head, Death Wreck, Devil Dinosaur, Dust, Electro, Elijah Snow, Eternal Warrior, Fantomex, Farenheit, Flint, Fuji, Gamora, Ghost (Iron Man villain), Gorgon, Grace Choi, Gray Gargoyle, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Hellion, Iron Fist, Jakita Wagner, Jason X, Jubilee, Karolina Dean, King Shark, Kymaera/Namorita, Lex Luthor (/w/ armor), Lightning Lad, Luke Cage, Matua, M.O.D.O.K., Mister Negative, Molly Hayes, Mongoose, Moonstone, Moses Magnum, Mr. Freeze, Multiple Man, Nemesis (/w/ Creation Blades), Nova Richard Rider (classic), Ogun, Omega Red, Poison Ivy, Prometheus, Ragman, Reed Richards (616), Rogue, Rom, Speedball, Spider-Man, Steel, Terra, Thunder, Tiger Shark, Toxin, Toyo Harada, Valkyrie, Vance Astro, Vandal Savage, Vengeance, Venom, Victor Mancha, Warblade, Warlock (Technarchy/Phalanx), Wonder Girl, Yellowjacket (Hank Pym)

Low
3-D Man, Angel, Arachne, Arana, Azrael, Backlash, Bane (/w/ Venom), Batman, Beast, Black Canary, Black Knight (classic /w/ Ebony Blade), Black Panther, Black Tarantula, Blade, Bloodshot, Bruenor Battlehammer, Captain America, Century, Charcoal, Charlie 27, Constrictor, Creeper, Cyber, Dagger, Daken, Deadpool, Deathlok, Deathstroke the Terminator, Doc Ock, Domino, Drizzt Do'Urden, Elixer, Falcon, Firehawk, Gambit, Gotham Butcher (Felix Harmon), Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Jason Voorhees, Judge Dredd, Karnak, Kid Devil, Killer Croc, Klaw, Lady Deathstrike, The Leader, Longshot, Man-Bat, Marrina (Normal), Mercury, Midnighter, Mister Hyde, Mister Miracle, Moon Girl, Mysterio, Mystique, Nightcrawler, Ninjak, Nuke, Orka Humbug, Owlman, Prometheus, Protocide, Puck, Puma, Rage, Rai, Sabretooth, Shang Chi, Silk, Silver Samurai, Spider-Gwen, Spider-Woman, Starlord, Swift, Thunder Cats, Tombstone, Triathalon, Vance Astro, Vanguard, Vermin, Vulture, Warpath, Wildchild, Wizard, Wolverine, Wulfgar, X-23, Zealot

The Master List (4/4)



Tier 1 - Street

High
Batgirl, Blacklash, Bronze Tiger, Bullseye, The Cat, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Captain America (Ultimate), Daredevil, David Cain, Elektra, Green Arrow, Harley Quinn, Hawkeye, Jack O'Lantern, Katana, Kingpin, Lady Shiva, Mysterio, Nightwing, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Richard Dragon, Rose Tattoo, Silencer, Talon (Calvin Rose), Snake Eyes, Storm Shadow, Taskmaster, Toad, Union Jack, Ursa Major, Winter Soldier

Middle
Arrowette, Arsenal/Red Arrow, Baron Zemo, Batroc, Batwoman, Black Cat, Black Mask, Black Widow, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Catman, Catwoman, Conan, Crossbones, Damian Wayne, Deadshot, Echo, Grifter, Hawkeye (Ultimate), Hush, Imus Champion, Joker, Ka-Zar, Lady Bullseye, Mach IV, Misty Knight, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Nomad, Peacemaker, Punisher, Ra's Al Ghul, Shado, Turok, Wildcat, Robin

Low
Agent Coulson, Alfred, Amanda Waller, Christine Trelane, Colleen Wing, Jesus (TWD), Kate Bishop, Night Thrasher, Obregon Kaine, Penguin, The Question, Speedy, Two Face, Riddler, Talia, White Tiger

{Reserved for future use}

{Reserved for future use}

*Opening/Pinning.


Also carried over the last proposals from the other thread and made the following additions to the list:
**Left the Young Justice roster out of the mix for now.


Any other proposals?

Yeah.

How about demoting Red Hulk (no absorption shit)?

He wasn't that formidable, from what I recall.

Where do you suggest placing him?

HM for now.

Annihilus to..mh/hh?
Jesse Quick to low herald?
Obsidian to..hh?
Lex Luthor in armor to high meta?
Runner to...hh/trans?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
HM for now. If no one disagrees, I'll make the move.



@Phil:
Annihilus to..mh/hh? Don't know enough about his 'base' state to comment.
Jesse Quick to low herald? Yes.
Obsidian to..hh? Yes.
Lex Luthor in armor to high meta? Yes.
Runner to...hh/trans? HH at most, imo. We've got the Flashes and Zoom at HH. It's a stretch to even put Runner on par with them, let alone beyond them.

Ragman mm, not too sure about his recent showings. Runner for trans. I think Annihilus for mh....maybe low but I wouldn't bet money on it.

annihilus-->hh is he has the ccr
jesse-->lh
obsidian-->defer
luthor in armor-->i'd have thought lh but hm is fine
runner-->hard to gauge. he was more powerful than the ss, and he did run a train through thanos. his early appearances are pretty impressive as well. not sure if he was retroactively assigned the gem in all his appearances though. with the gem, he was certainly trans imo, and i think that is the version most think of when they think of him. trans for me. /shrug

i think i'd mentioned re hulk to hm meta initially too. he is another one that straddles the bounds imo. he could fit at either level.

If we're giving Runner the space gem, then yeah, probably trans.

I was thinking without the gem but, then again, he has so few appearances in general, that it'd be pretty weird to split him in two.

Lower WW to mid herald.

Originally posted by Galan007
If we're giving Runner the space gem, then yeah, probably trans.

C'mon man without space gem as well. Didn't Thanos say the gem didn't make him faster? Not to sure but didn't Runner own SS while not having space gem?

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/runner/4005-41661/forums/runner-respeck-thread-25357/
Originally posted by Deadline
C'mon man without space gem as well. Didn't Thanos say the gem didn't make him faster? Not to sure but didn't Runner own SS while not having space gem?

So my votes on this:

Annihilus - mh for now.
Jesse Quick - low herald
Obsidian - hh
Lex Luthor hm
Runner - hh , trans

Speaking of bugs -- Mantis for MH? Or is he higher?

Don't have a problem with the rest but nah Runner for trans with and without gem.

LOL Night thrasher for low street? At least mid. facepalm

Obsidian should be at least trans, his shadow form is so haxx makes him beyond space time, intangible iand immortal. plus crazy powers like possession. all else fail he can just teleport people to shadowlands, his darkness manipulation is insane, he one shot kyle rayner and alan scott before (both hh), blinds gog, his darkness manipulation is also on planetary scale, he can cover the entire earth in darkness. if the battle take place in the darkness of space Obsidian can literally be everywhere at once

I don't see how runner is more powerful than obsidian, one> surfer, the other > kyle rayner and alan scott

*Made the following additions to the list:


Originally posted by Phil
Speaking of bugs -- Mantis for MH? Or is he higher? MH, imo.

Originally posted by MrMind
Obsidian should be at least trans, his shadow form is so haxx makes him beyond space time, intangible iand immortal. plus crazy powers like possession. all else fail he can just teleport people to shadowlands, his darkness manipulation is insane, he one shot kyle rayner and alan scott before (both hh), blinds gog, his darkness manipulation is also on planetary scale, he can cover the entire earth in darkness. if the battle take place in the darkness of space Obsidian can literally be everywhere at once

I don't see how runner is more powerful than obsidian, one> surfer, the other > kyle rayner and alan scott You're absolutely right in that Obsidian does have some tremendously high-highs... But so does nearly every other HH on the list.

To me it seems like HH is a good fit for him on average. He can always be moved if more people feel differently, however.

Any other proposals?

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Lower WW to mid herald.

The consensus in the last thread was to put her at HH.

Evidently.

Maybe Absorbing man should be high meta...

Originally posted by Galan007
You're absolutely right in that Obsidian does have some tremendously high-highs... But so does nearly every other HH on the list.

To me it seems like HH is a good fit for him on average. He can always be moved if more people feel differently, however.

I agree, compare to the best feats of the top HH like SS, Hal, Adam Warlock, or Majestic, Obsidian does not seem to be on a higher level. I am more arguing his haxx power set. But I am def ok with him being high herald, he is one of those characters that do not have enough showings to warrant a higher praise. so anywhere between low trans to high herald is a good fit imo ( in this case HH)

What I'm having trouble with is why so many people think Runner is trans tier though, even with the gem I don't see him being more powerful than let's say classic adam warlock. and he has even less feats than obsidian. Marvel does not even think he can beat the flash in a race, that's why he lost to buried allen. And Barry is only HH

Maybe I'm missing something

Annihilus hh
Lex Luthor hm
Vision lh
Runner let's keep him out, not enough showings

---

Mothra hm
Jason Voorhees lm

Originally posted by MrMind
I agree, compare to the best feats of the top HH like SS, Hal, Adam Warlock, or Majestic, Obsidian does not seem to be on a higher level. I am more arguing his haxx power set. But I am def ok with him being high herald, he is one of those characters that do not have enough showings to warrant a higher praise. so anywhere between low trans to high herald is a good fit imo ( in this case HH)

What I'm having trouble with is why so many people think Runner is trans tier though, even with the gem I don't see him being more powerful than let's say classic adam warlock. and he has even less feats than obsidian. Marvel does not even think he can beat the flash in a race, that's why he lost to buried allen. And Barry is only HH

Maybe I'm missing something Feat-wise it's simply impossible to prove that Runner is as fast as the noteworthy Flashes, and/or Zoom(all of which are HH), nor would you be able to prove he is nearly as versatile in a forum setting.

I think most are putting Runner at Trans due to his battles with Surfer and Thanos. But again, I'm more than happy to move him if a consensus cannot be reached.

Originally posted by Bentley
Annihilus hh
Lex Luthor hm
Vision lh
Runner let's keep him out, not enough showings

---

Mothra hm
Jason Voorhees lm *Ah yes, forgot about Vision. Moved to LH.

Are we giving Annihilus the CCR as default? If so, I agree with HH.

---

Mothra to HM- agree
Jason to LM- agree.

What about Jason X? MM?

I'm assuming Annihilus has the CCR too for my placing. Feel free to put signal it on the list if you feel it's warranted.

Jason X should be mm.

some suggestions

H'el- Trans?
King Hyperion- MH?
First Born- HH?
Helspont-HH?
Starbrand- Trans?
maestro?
Bor- Trans?
Hela-Trans?
Warblade-MM?
Agent Orange WS -HS?
Zealot- LM?
deathblow-ms to hs?
The High WS- LH?
Nemesis WS- HM with Creation Blades?
Backlash- LM?

Originally posted by Galan007
Feat-wise it's simply impossible to prove that Runner is as fast as the noteworthy Flashes, and/or Zoom(all of which are HH), nor would you be able to prove he is nearly as versatile in a forum setting.

I think most are putting Runner at Trans due to his battles with Surfer and Thanos. But again, I'm more than happy to move him if a consensus cannot be reached.



thanks for explaining , I'll let you guys decide that one. I'm fine either way as I am not well versed enough with marvel speedsters

Originally posted by Bentley
I'm assuming Annihilus has the CCR too for my placing. Feel free to put signal it on the list if you feel it's warranted.

Jason X should be mm.

I think leo had the same opinion about him having the CCR. I can edit that in and move him up a tier. I'm also going to add Mothra, Jason, and Jason X for now. If anyone has an issue with these placements, feel free to chime in.


*These are the new set of proposals. Lets work on getting them placed before we move onto anyone else:
Originally posted by MrMind
some suggestions

H'el- Trans?
King Hyperion- MH?
First Born- HH?
Helspont-HH?
Starbrand- Trans?
maestro?
Bor- Trans?
Hela-Trans?
Warblade-MM?
Agent Orange WS -HS?
Zealot- LM?
deathblow-ms to hs?
The High WS- LH?
Nemesis WS- HM with Creation Blades?
Backlash- LM?

I'll throw in my opinion on some of these in a bit.

There's a good point about Runner - the Flashes/Zoom would beat him if it really came down to feats - especially without the gem - where he was specifically beaten in a race by Makkari going lightspeed. That's childsplay for the Flashes.

I'm starting to agree that he has too few appearances to rank, without ruffling feathers.

Originally posted by Galan007
MH, imo.

I think we'll be the only ones to say anything on him, so you might as well put him, lol.

Some of the proposals..

H'el- Trans.
King Hyperion - I'd put him at high meta, to be perfectly honest...barely low herald.
First Born - I wouldn't put him on the list at all
Helspont - New 52? Wildstorm?
Starbrand- high-herald
Maestro - low/mid herald
Bor - too little appearances. I'd leave him out.

I personally don't care about the new 52 version of the WS characters

but if you guys can throw in your opinions on WS versions of these it would be awesome thanks

as far as King Hyperion, his showings in exiles killing alternative avengers and f4 and mutants and dominating dfiferent earths was pretty badass, absorb holocaust, or killin a alternative Big G off panel should count for something

but then again failing to catch meteor, then there was blink blowing him up with sand, then hyperion kicked his ass so...

a lot of high in early appearances but took a big dive

He's the poster boy for big shot in alternate Universes then getting his shit pushed in the main one.

Originally posted by Phil
I think we'll be the only ones to say anything on him, so you might as well put him, lol. *Added Mantis to MH.


My 2 cents on the new proposals:

H'el- Trans
King Hyperion- LH at most.
First Born- 1st form=Trans. 2nd form(the burned/mutated version)=off the list entirely.
Helspont- HH
Starbrand- HH
Maestro- MH
Bor- Not enough to gauge.
Hela- Trans
Warblade- MM
Agent Orange WS- Defer
Zealot- LM
deathblow- Defer
The High WS- Defer
Nemesis WS with Creation Blades- MM
Backlash- LM

And are there any other opinions on Runner?

Originally posted by MrMind

What I'm having trouble with is why so many people think Runner is trans tier though, even with the gem I don't see him being more powerful than let's say classic adam warlock. and he has even less feats than obsidian. Marvel does not even think he can beat the flash in a race, that's why he lost to buried allen. And Barry is only HH

Maybe I'm missing something

To be fair I'm not sure that his race with the flash counts. First of all it could be argued that he was overconfident but that aside the story didn't even make any sense. For starters it claimed something like theres this thing called absolute speed which is faster than light and that's the fastest you can go. The problem with that is that the Surfer has gone over that speed millions of times and so has The Runner. It's like the time that it was stated that The Champion lost to She-hulk because the power gem was linked to power primordial. That doesnt make any sense because the infinity gems have never been linked to the power primordial, not before this was stated and not after so it's like the author made up some concept to make a weaker character look good. It's like Nightcrawler beating Silver Surfer in a comic because it's stated that SS has a weakness to brimestone, that would make no sense because it's just not true.

The reason why he's trans tier is beacuse of his fight with Surfer and Thanos. I could also add that it could be argued that he should be trans tier by just being an Elder in the first place because people within that group usualy are around that level. So it's kinda like if you have a a character that's an Eternal you can assume he will probably have a certain powerset, that doesn't mean he will have matter manipulation powers on the level of Sersi or be as strong as The Forgotten One but he's going to have the usual eg flight cosmic energy manipulation etc.

From what I remember it seems most Elders are above hh. For example Obliterator is another Elder who was owning Surfer in fight. Surfer only won by altering his tech through matter manipulation. Now obvioulsy I wouldn't base putting Runner in trans tier only based on that but that could be something to add if lacking a lot of feats. Oh yeah there's his feat with Moondragon where it was shown he traveled many light years in seconds easily which contradicts the Flash absolute speed theory

One thing that could be added is that I've seen in herochat people invent a tier called 'Elite'. Which is above hh and below subskyfather. Eventhough I think most Elders are above hh I'm not sure if they would be equal to Thanos in power.




Originally posted by Bentley

Runner let's keep him out, not enough showings



I think it could be argued that based on the feats we have seen he's trans tier but if people want him out that's up to them.

I vote we keep him as is. :3

I also would like to see Starro the Conqueror on trans?

H'el- Trans
King Hyperion- LH
Starbrand- HH i could go trans with starbrand
Maestro- MH
Hela- Trans
Zealot- LM
Backlash- LM

starro at trans works for me.

Originally posted by leonidas
H'el- Trans
King Hyperion- LH
Starbrand- HH i could go trans with starbrand
Maestro- MH
Hela- Trans
Zealot- LM
Backlash- LM

starro at trans works for me. You make me proud. :3

He is the most powerful Telepath in the entire DC universe after all.

Don't know if I agree with Starro the Conqueror being trans. Granted his TP was impressive, but he also feared the likes of Lobo, so...

Controlling 9 galaxies-worth(not universes, lol) of sentients and owning Despero with TP is impressive and all, but it's hardly enough to make him trans-level by itself, imo. I'd wager a telepath like Hector 'God Brain' Hammond, for example, could easily mindphuck that same Despero, and he's only LH. And as mentioned, Starro explicitly feared Lobo, who is only MH.

I'd say HH for Starro, tbh, though I'm curious what others have to say about him. I'm not opposed to trans if a decent case can be made I guess. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Controlling 9 galaxies-worth(not universes, lol) of sentients and owning Despero with TP is impressive and all, but it's hardly enough to make him trans-level by itself, imo. I'd wager a telepath like Hector 'God Brain' Hammond, for example, could easily mindphuck that same Despero, and he's only LH. And as mentioned, Starro explicitly feared Lobo, who is only MH.

I'd say HH for Starro, tbh, though I'm curious what others have to say about him. I'm not opposed to trans if a decent case can be made. /shrug You put up a good case. :3

Have we seen abilities from him other then TP?

He swatted around Captain Comet(LH), and Starfire(HM) pretty easily. kinda

Of course.

You guys should do a strength class thread. You know like the back of the marvel handbooks have.
Class 1 and so on.

Be nice to see where some of DC guys fit in since Ive never seen one for DC.

hmm, i'm remembering some older jla books where starro seemed pretty clearly to be a threat the whole league was needed to defeat. i remember despero teaming with vril dox at one point as well, and again, starro seemed like a pretty uber threat. he's always been a bit of a difficult villain to get my head fully around though. the most recent version certainly isn't trans--not even sure what level i'd say cobi (is that it's name??) is. but the classic version of starro seems to be trans for sure to me. but i'll accept that this isn't a character i know especially well, or even really like that much. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, i'm remembering some older jla books where starro seemed pretty clearly to be a threat the whole league was needed to defeat. i remember despero teaming with vril dox at one point as well, and again, starro seemed like a pretty uber threat. he's always been a bit of a difficult villain to get my head fully around though. the most recent version certainly isn't trans--not even sure what level i'd say cobi (is that it's name??) is. but the classic version of starro seems to be trans for sure to me. but i'll accept that this isn't a character i know especially well, or even really like that much. /shrug Maybe not current, but his peak was when he beheaded Despero with absolute ease in my opinion.

They should have published more about him, he really is a cool character.

It is just hard to think that one with the TP abilities to control 9 universes can be any less than Trans.

But being scared of Lobo kinda kicks him down...

Maybe he was just fearful of the Lobo from the cartoon, if that is the case, I would see why. X3

Where would you horribly handsome homos put the Plutonian from the end of Irredeemable? High herald?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Where would you horribly handsome homos put the Plutonian from the end of Irredeemable? High herald? High or mid herald yeah.

*Made the following additions to the list:


Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Maybe not current, but his peak was when he beheaded Despero with absolute ease in my opinion.

They should have published more about him, he really is a cool character.

It is just hard to think that one with the TP abilities to control 9 universes can be any less than Trans.

But being scared of Lobo kinda kicks him down...

Maybe he was just fearful of the Lobo from the cartoon, if that is the case, I would see why. X3 Starro TP'd Despero first, which then allowed Despero to be decapitated. It's a great TP feat, but as mentioned: uber TP alone does not necessarily warrant being placed higher on the list. If it did, then Hector Hammond and Xavier would be a LOT higher then they are. That said, Starro explicitly feared a confrontation with Lobo(MH), and thought the added power of Captain Comet(LH) + Starfire(HM) would make him unstoppable, lol. Personally, I think HH is a much better fit than trans for him, but I'll go with the consensus as always.

And again: Starro controlled 9 GALAXIES, not universes. Huge difference.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Where would you horribly handsome homos put the Plutonian from the end of Irredeemable? High herald? I'd say HH as well.

Victree was born yesterday.

Good luck explaining to him the difference between a galaxy and a universe.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2wfjonb.png

--
Odin to HH? That's being crazy generous. He's certainly not a skyfather anymore.

plutonian=hh

loved plutonian. not impossible to suggest he reached trans at the very end where he learned to more fully use his power, but yeah, hh in general.

I'd potentially put end-of-series Plutonian at trans - but even his 'normal' form has ridiculous feats . Let's say HH for the normal one, but even so..

I'll have to think about Starro, and go over the details of his fights .

Originally posted by Galan007
*Made the following additions to the list:


Starro TP'd Despero first, which then allowed Despero to be decapitated. It's a great TP feat, but as mentioned: uber TP alone does not necessarily warrant being placed higher on the list. If it did, then Hector Hammond and Xavier would be a LOT higher then they are. That said, Starro explicitly feared a confrontation with Lobo(MH), and thought the added power of Captain Comet(LH) + Starfire(HM) would make him unstoppable, lol. Personally, I think HH is a much better fit than trans for him, but I'll go with the consensus as always.

And again: Starro controlled 9 GALAXIES, not universes. Huge difference.

I'd say HH as well. Sorry, I misread the comic. X3

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Victree was born yesterday.

Good luck explaining to him the difference between a galaxy and a universe.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2wfjonb.png

--
Odin to HH? That's being crazy generous. He's certainly not a skyfather anymore. Respect the Victreebel. :3

*Added Plutonian to HH.

Have we any other proposals?

Originally posted by Phil
I'll have to think about Starro, and go over the details of his fights . Forgot about the BL showing, tbh. Iirc he stalemated a few of them for a couple days, with neither side giving ground, and ended up dumping them into a black hole.

Iirc, he was purposely extending the fight with them out of ego.

Originally posted by Galan007
*Added Plutonian to HH.

Have we any other proposals?


maybe consider change the rules and add in Skyfather and above level as well just for fun?

a few people in the trans list might be a little bit too powerul

like Sbp (even at boy prime level), Kal Kent, Jenny Quantum

also you guys can pick a few from here:
White Witch/Black Witch (legion)
Star Sapphire- MH?
Fatality- MH?
Saint Walker- MH?
Romulus
Viper
agent zero
Top (flash villain)
Maverick (David North)- MS?
trickster- LM?
toyman- LM?
abra kadabra- LH?
heat wave- LM?
golden glider
pied piper
Morph- MM?
namora- HM?
sunfire- MM?
Human Torch (jim hammond) HM-LH?
Fire- HM?
sportsmaster- MS?
Kraken
Bob the agent of hydra (lulz)- LS?
rag doll
silver banshee
static shock
scandal savage
Elsa Bloodstone
The Captain
Tabitha Smith

Originally posted by Galan007
*Added Plutonian to HH.

Have we any other proposals?

Forgot about the BL showing, tbh. Iirc he stalemated a few of them for a couple days, with neither side giving ground, and ended up dumping them into a black hole. Maybe that places him in trans. :3

My vote goes for HH/Trans for StC.

lord mar-vell to trans?
the serpent trans or skyfather?
invictus
warrior three
the wrecking crew
malekith
members from the dark knights metal? (Dawnbreaker, Merciless Devastator, The Drowned, Murder Machine, Red Death) though probably not enough showings

Originally posted by MrMind
lord mar-vell to trans?
the serpent trans or skyfather?
invictus
warrior three
the wrecking crew
malekith
members from the dark knights metal? (Dawnbreaker, Merciless Devastator, The Drowned, Murder Machine, Red Death) though probably not enough showings Mir. mind, how would you rate Starro the Conqueror?

also I know I'm getting way ahead of myself here but these need to be rated more than the crap I listed earlier

Daken- LM (how did we forget daken lol)
The Crow-LM (RIP Brandon Lee)
Witchblade-HM
Ozymandias-HS
Rorschach-MS
Comedian-HS
Silk Spectre-LS
Nite Owl-LS

Originally posted by Facee
You guys should do a strength class thread. You know like the back of the marvel handbooks have.
Class 1 and so on.

Be nice to see where some of DC guys fit in since Ive never seen one for DC.

But a character's strength varies so much over time, should we use their strongest or average? how do we even average it out. this shit is so hard to pinpoint

there are gonna be so many people on dc earth with class 100 and above there will be no point listing it
honestly same with marvel
marvel handbook strength class is so full of crap there is class 25 hero who performed thousands of tons in comics

I remember hyperion was once listed class 90 lol the dude could lift millions tons easy

Originally posted by MrMind
also I know I'm getting way ahead of myself here but these need to be rated more than the crap I listed earlier

Daken- LM (how did we forget daken lol)
The Crow-LM (RIP Brandon Lee)
Witchblade-HM
Ozymandias-HS
Rorschach-MS
Comedian-HS
Silk Spectre-LS
Nite Owl-LS



But a character's strength varies so much over time, should we use their strongest or average? how do we even average it out. this shit is so hard to pinpoint

there are gonna be so many people on dc earth with class 100 and above there will be no point listing it
honestly same with marvel
marvel handbook strength class is so full of crap there is class 25 hero who performed thousands of tons in comics

I remember hyperion was once listed class 90 lol the dude could lift millions tons easy
Naw, just use current strength levels. Those lists for Marvel are all over the place. Be nice for someone to fix it up and add dc characters etc.

Characters change all the time true. But wouldn't that mean changing or updating the tier list as well?

Updates is where it's at lad.

*Added Starro the Conqueror to HH. He can always be bumped up if there is a stronger consensus for it.


And holy cow I see a f*ckton of new proposals. I dig the enthusiasm, but lets try and stick to the 10 character limit we established in the last thread. Makes things much easier that way(on all ends.)

With that being said, which 10 characters should be on the docket first?

Yeah, this is too many at once. I think we talked in the other thread to keep the Watchmen off the list. And Static is already on the list.

So, to pick some..

Star Sapphire (say, Carol) - mid herald
Saint Walker - mid herald
Abra Kadabra - at least mid-herald, imo.
Silver Banshee - high meta
Daken - LM
Sunfire - high meta

*Tweaked the OP Rules a bit. When you guys get a chance, give it a look.

Yeah, I'd probably second Saint Walker for LH. Aside from putting up some decent shields here and there, he seems to be mainly depicted as a glorified GL battery pack. /shrug

Also agree with the rest of Phil's proposals.

For good reason. Solaris is logically well beyond trans.

Next page bump:
Originally posted by Galan007
*Tweaked the OP Rules a bit. When you guys get a chance, give it a look.

Nope. That might be a Tier we can discuss adding once the existing Tiers List has been sorted out, and the proposals have dwindled down.

my mistake of overlooking the rules, sorry

Blue Lantern is only able to use his offensive power when a GL is present, when I mention saint walker I was thinking blue lanterns being good in team battles paring up with other lanterns, because of (like darksaint mentioned) their ability to amp and heal

also I don't know why I listed Abra Kadabra for LH, the guy is at least MH, not powerful like dr strange level but still a competant mage his transmutation is ridiculous, turning superman into puppet, turning Jay Garrick into turtle, turning people into cards, turns window into a mouth,
other conjurations like creates lightning or fire blast, or something really random like traps someone in bondage gear, or create racetrack and grandstands with audiences

lol so many funny magic abilities. dude acts like a stage magician but is actually low level reality warper.
Also was his ability still 64th century tech based or changed into pure magic?

Originally posted by MrMind
my mistake of overlooking the rules, sorry No worries. I didn't edit the OP until after you posted anyway.

Originally posted by MrMind
Blue Lantern is only able to use his offensive power when a GL is present, when I mention saint walker I was thinking blue lanterns being good in team battles paring up with other lanterns, because of (like darksaint mentioned) their ability to amp and heal Makes sense, but we have to rank the characters as individuals here.

Originally posted by MrMind
also I don't know why I listed Abra Kadabra for LH, the guy is at least MH, not powerful like dr strange level but still a competant mage his transmutation is ridiculous, turning superman into puppet, turning Jay Garrick into turtle, turning people into cards, turns window into a mouth,
other conjurations like creates lightning or fire blast, or something really random like traps someone in bondage gear, or create racetrack and grandstands with audiences

lol so many funny magic abilities. dude acts like a stage magician but is actually low level reality warper.
Also was his ability still 64th century tech based or changed into pure magic? AK is a beast, indeed. The more I think about it, the more inclined I'd be to put him at HH, tbh.

But yeah, MH would be an absolute minimum for him.

Originally posted by Galan007
Nope. That might be a Tier we can discuss adding once the existing Tiers List has been sorted out, and the proposals have dwindled down. God, I would love that.

Star Sapphire (say, Carol) - mid herald
Saint Walker - mid herald
Abra Kadabra - at least mid-herald, imo.
Silver Banshee - high meta
Daken - LM
Sunfire - high meta

_____________

i'm okay with most though i could see star sapphire at lh as easily as mh and i could legit see walker at hm. honestly, what has he really done to make us think he could take ironman for a majority...? he may have more overall power, but his effectiveness in battle is....not awesome imo. /shrug

i can agree with the others.

Galan, is it okay if I were to make a thread which votes for getting a Skyfather list, or should I just ask it here?

As mentioned, that will not even be considered until everything else is sorted out with the existing list.

IOW, don't make the thread.

Originally posted by Galan007
As mentioned, that will not even be considered until everything else is sorted out with the existing list.

IOW, don't make the thread. Yes sir!

I am just so excited to get a list in, I want to see where Solaris May be going. :3

Star Sapphire (say, Carol) - mid herald
Saint Walker - low herald (this weakling)
Daken - LM
Sunfire - high meta

*Added the following characters to the list:


Who's next?

Imus Champion mid-street
Moses Magnum mid-meta (?)
Lady Bullseye mid-street
The Saint of Killers - thoughts?

Lady Bullseye MS
The Saint of Killers - should be off the list, he's way way up there but haxx character like this is difficult to judge in neutral universe. I mean what level of power/how immortal do you have to be in marvel or dc to not get killed by his gun, who knows

Lord Mar-vell- Trans

Alright, so these are the current proposals(there are room for a few more):

Imus Champion mid-street
Moses Magnum mid-meta (?)
Lady Bullseye mid-street
The Saint of Killers - thoughts?
Lord Mar-vell- Trans


Regarding SoK: it's probably best to leave him off the list... Not because I think he's too powerful for it, but because it's nearly impossible to gauge him against most other noteworthy characters. Clearly the God/Satan of his reality are infinitely less powerful then the Supreme Beings we're accustomed to in other companies. We saw his guns(which were forged from the swords of his reality's Angel of Death) insta-kill God/Satan, but then fail to kill a random Angel and Cassidy(a common Vampire), cuz... Reasons? Aside from that, SoK's got some degree of superhuman strength/durability(see him no-selling a nuke), but that's really it. I wouldn't even know where to start with him.

And agree with Mar-vell for Trans.

I think we should start the skyfather tier soon (not right now of course)

You guys have built the current list very complete, detailed and refined. All the important characters are covered. This tier list is already better than the one they have on VSBattles

there are so many b-listers to z-listers comic book characters out there it's impossible to cover most of them.

The majority of characters used in battles and tournaments are covered here though imo. There are of course room to add for more. But to add too many will only make each tier look bloated. and that's not good because the important ones will be overlooked when people look at this list.

also there are over 20 thousand dc characters and over 50 thousand marvel, this process will never end lol.

So right now I think to expand on more tiers, than adding names in existing tiers, is the way to go. then this will look very organized and layered. the beauty of it is you can always go back and add more or make changes

I wouldn't be opposed to creating a new "Skyfather" Tier, if there was enough genuine interest in establishing it... It would probably have a "> Thanos, and < average Galactus" limit if we ended up actually making it.

But again, that would only come after the existing List is sorted, and only if enough people were on board with the idea.

Originally posted by Galan007

Imus Champion mid-street
Moses Magnum mid-meta (?)
Lady Bullseye mid-street
The Saint of Killers - thoughts?
Lord Mar-vell- Trans


imus and moses? lol been a while since i've seen those names but from i recall those tiers sound about right. not sure the extent of magnum's seismic power.

i wouldn't include sok either and mar-vell for trans for sure.

what about quake (daisy?): hm?
coulson? ms? ls?
leader? mm? hm? (he's always been a disappointment...)
baron mordo? hm? lh?
what about he enigma force or captain universe? too variable?
doctor voodoo? hm? has he reached lh?
mojo? hm?

Originally posted by Galan007

Imus Champion mid-street
Moses Magnum mid-meta (?)
Lady Bullseye mid-street
The Saint of Killers - thoughts?
Lord Mar-vell- Trans


imus and moses? lol been a while since i've seen those names but from what i recall those tiers sound about right. not sure the extent of magnum's seismic power.

i wouldn't include sok either and mar-vell for trans for sure.

what about quake (daisy?): hm?
coulson? ms? ls?
leader? mm? hm? (he's always been a disappointment...)
baron mordo? hm? lh?
what about he enigma force or captain universe? too variable?
doctor voodoo? hm? has he reached lh?
mojo? hm?

Proposal:
In Betweener?

Well above trans....

Mysterio is high street imo.

*Added the following to the List:



The new proposals:
Originally posted by leonidas
what about quake (daisy?): hm?
coulson? ms? ls?
leader? mm? hm? (he's always been a disappointment...)
baron mordo? hm? lh?
what about he enigma force or captain universe? too variable?
doctor voodoo? hm? has he reached lh?
mojo? hm?

Mysterio- HS

Leader: MM
Doctor Voodoo: Wanna say HM

with his tech i might put mysterio at lm. he always gives spidey trouble because of prep, but his guns, holograms and ability to mislead even without prep should get him out of street. maybe....?

I could go LM as well. :3

btw nice job on the redesign galan. the tiers thread looks really good.

Originally posted by leonidas
what about quake (daisy?): hm?
coulson? ms? ls?
leader? mm? hm? (he's always been a disappointment...)
baron mordo? hm? lh?
what about he enigma force or captain universe? too variable?
doctor voodoo? hm? has he reached lh?
mojo? hm?

Daisy would be a HM
Coulso - LS
Leader - LM
Mysterio - HS (with CIS on, he always seemed a loser).

Can't speak for the rest.

you need to chime in more too!

Quake (Daisy) for HM

Originally posted by leonidas
btw nice job on the redesign galan. the tiers thread looks really good. Thx.

Originally posted by Smurph
Quake (Daisy) for HM Smurph! You should participate in this thread more.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
We would be able to add a few overperforming members from the T3/High Herald to the new Low Trans tier. How so? At the end of the day, Trans is still Trans, and Herald is still Herald.

Any HH's who consistently operate outside their 'weight class' as a norm should be placed in the general Trans tier anyway. That's why Superman was bumped up, for example. /shrug

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Daisy would be a HM
Coulso - LS
Leader - LM
Mysterio - HS (with CIS on, he always seemed a loser).

Can't speak for the rest. Yeah, Spidey always beats him somehow.

I turn back to HS, But is there anything placing him in LM?

Baron Mordo-HM
Doctor Voodoo- HM
honestly both can made a cast to be LH, but then again mages are hard to determine
Jack O'Lantern -HS to LM
Coulson - LS
Leader - LM
Mysterio - HS
Captain Nazi- HM
Lord Satanus- Neron is skyfather level, Lord Satanus is a notch below him so.....def Trans minimum
Asmodel- HH

Originally posted by Galan007
Smurph! You should participate in this thread more.
Yeah, will do - didn't even realize we were taking another crack at the tiers, lol. Brings some life back into this forum.

I know there are limits on characters to discuss and I don't want to open cans of worms that have already been debated ad nauseam, but I wanted to throw a couple questions out there:

- I saw Nate Grey --> HH was discussed. Why not move him? My rationale: I see FP Cable/Nate Grey as a good dividing line between the tiers. IMO, FP/God Cable is firmly at the upper end of MH, and Nate is a solid step above him. A bit like BRB/Thor.

- Black Widow should be HS (currently at MS).

- Bane (w Venom) to LM, at least.

- What about Talon? LM cause of healing factor?

*Added the following characters to the List:



Originally posted by Smurph
Yeah, will do - didn't even realize we were taking another crack at the tiers, lol. Brings some life back into this forum.

I know there are limits on characters to discuss and I don't want to open cans of worms that have already been debated ad nauseam, but I wanted to throw a couple questions out there:

- I saw Nate Grey --> HH was discussed. Why not move him? My rationale: I see FP Cable/Nate Grey as a good dividing line between the tiers. IMO, FP/God Cable is firmly at the upper end of MH, and Nate is a solid step above him. A bit like BRB/Thor.

- Black Widow should be HS (currently at MS).

- Bane (w Venom) to LM, at least.

- What about Talon? LM cause of healing factor? I think a few of these have come up recently, but I'm open to discussing them again(maybe some opinions have changed..?)


**So with that being said, here are the new set of proposals:

for Bane to LM. Especially now that Cap is in it.

And I repeat - DP Odin to HH. For now, at least. Could be lower.

My take:

Agree

Captain Nazi- HM
Lord Satanus- Trans
Asmodel- HH
Bane (w Venom)- LM

Disagree

Nate Grey- HH
Black Widow- HS
Talon- LM

Reasons:

- I don't see Nate/Cable as dividing lines between tiers, since neither of them are in the upper one. The same reason John Stewart/Guy & Baz/Jessica aren't dividing - because they all fit at mid. There's too many inside the tier that are around that area of power : J'onn, Graviton, Loki , Blue Marvel, Morg, Captain Atom, Count Nefaria etc.
- Black Widow isn't a tier above the likes of Tim Drake , Punisher, Deadshot, Moonknight and whatnot.
- just having superhuman stats doesn't make you low meta, as we define the tier. The Talons would get beat by many in the high street

I actually agree with every word Phil posted. He completes me.

Depends if we're talking about random/no-name Talons, or a specific noteworthy Talon like Calvin Rose. If the former, then yeah, I could realistically see them being MS-ish(HS at the absolute most), as guys like Batman and Bane have fodderized them without much trouble. If the latter, then I could see Calvin potentially being LM, as he did do very well against Bane and his Venom enhanced minions -- he'd certainly be no less than HS, imo. /shrug

On the topic of Talons(since we have a few empty slots open in this round of proposals), what about the Gotham Butcher(Felix Harmon)? MM?

So again, here are the current proposals:

Captain Nazi- HM
Lord Satanus- Trans
Asmodel- HH
already mentioned

Nate Grey- HH
He absolutely is on this level imo, I see him beating almost all the mid herald except Captain Atom and Alex Nero. and He can beat a lot of the High Herald too, people like WW, Zatanna, Thor etc have no chance against him
Him being pure energy form meaning he will be very hard to kill. His Psi, TK, TP so powerful that it rival the likes of phoenix force
He can do ridiculous shit like freeze time, or enter planck length exist out of time and seeing everyone's past present future. or simply exist outside of reality
can teleport to other realities, Psi constructs that can hurt the likes of Thanos.
exist as pure astral energy, if his physical body dies his astral form can resurrects himself back
this is what he used to do, I heard he's even more powerful now though I didn't read his current uncanny x-men

Black Widow- MS
Bane (w Venom)- LM
Yeah he's way stronger than his pre-52 self. Though the meta tier is so stacked up and Street tiers need people
Talon- HS
Gotham Butcher (Felix Harmon)- defer

to add 2 more and make it 10 even
David Cain- HS
Citizen Steel- MH

From Phil:



-I see Nate as above all the characters mentioned, and FP Cable at the level or just superior to all of those.
-Punisher should definitely be HS as well. BW is above Tim Drake, and belongs in the same tier as Elektra and Daredevil, even if they rep the upper end of that tier.
- Right, depends on the Talon.

Originally posted by Smurph
-I see Nate as above all the characters mentioned, and FP Cable at the level or just superior to all of those.
-Punisher should definitely be HS as well. BW is above Tim Drake, and belongs in the same tier as Elektra and Daredevil, even if they rep the upper end of that tier.
- Right, depends on the Talon. - Nate/Cable - I know you do, that's why you proposed it. I don't. I guess we'll see what the others say.
- I disagree about Black Widow above Tim Drake. Actually, given his equipment, I actually see it the reverse, and him a tier above her. I don't even see Black Widow as the top of her own tier, never mind in the next one - and if we have to start moving The Punisher, Moon Knight, Deadshot etc. to justify her, I'd rather not. A stalemate against Elektra doesn't make her high street, anymore than Catman stalemating Batman does.
- Talon -

She's also beaten Crossbones and I think Punisher. Some people respect Punisher's h2h skills and other don't in his recent showing against Iron Fist it's pretty clear he could take him in h2h without him channeling the Iron Fist. Punisher was able to go up against the Avengers and did pretty well considering. So yeah Punisher and Black Widow deserve to be in HS, maybe I could even argue that Punisher desrves to be in low-meta due to standard equipment and his damage soak.

Not sure what Crossbones had been doing recently but he's got good showings as well.

Originally posted by MrMind
Gotham Butcher (Felix Harmon)- defer Regarding Felix...
Originally posted by Galan007
Even as a child(before being injected with the Talon serum that massively amped his physical stats), Felix was capable of lifting/holding the full weight of a locomotive:
https://i.imgur.com/Hv67wKq.jpg

He was also capable of effortlessly slaughtering Talons:
https://i.imgur.com/1zr84Zb.jpg

He also stomped the living shit out of the amped Calvin Rose(with all his gear) easily:
https://imgur.com/a/hozi8

And after being blown into several pieces/decapitated, Felix STILL wasn't dead and actually began healing... He has to be kept in an absolute zero prison indefinitely to prevent his return:
https://i.imgur.com/b4JfXVh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/4ZGa7WL.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
Regarding Felix...



Dude is a badass, cool desgin, great art

How was Talon series? I always liked the batman related characters stories more than the main book.

The Talon series was surprisingly good. You should definitely read it.

She was retconned to be enhanced by the Red Room variant of the SSS, btw.

Originally posted by Smurph
Stalemating Elektra is one example of Marvel treating Widow as a HS character. So is trashing Punisher, beating Crossbones, beating Lady Bullseye, being treated as clearly better than Fury. All of those are in MS.

Plus way better marksmanship feats, etc. Her old tier placing at LS pre-dated the MCU. She's practically a different character nowadays.

When did she trash Punisher? I thought trash means to own?

Originally posted by Deadline
When did she trash Punisher? I thought trash means to own? Secret Empire #7 https://imgur.com/a/eQLE1

Originally posted by Smurph
So is trashing Punisher, beating Crossbones, beating Lady Bullseye, being treated as clearly better than Fury. All of those are in MS.

Plus way better marksmanship feats, etc. Her old tier placing at LS pre-dated the MCU. She's practically a different character nowadays. She had an even fight with Punisher once:
https://imgur.com/a/NIY70

Then she lost the fight against him in close quarters, and used weapons from the environment, as he had his back turned and was walking towards the weapon, in order to win:
https://imgur.com/a/eQLE1

Are these what you're referring to? The ones you call trashing?

She's also lost to Bucky, while she had Captain America's shield, too:
https://imgur.com/a/9EO9k

Originally posted by Smurph
Secret Empire #7 https://imgur.com/a/eQLE1

OK maybe the second page is a bit hard to read with all those panel, but how did she own him? I mean she got knocked down at one point and you can see she's wounded.....

EDIT: Hate to say this but it looks like she almost lost the fight against Frank which Phil seems to be implying since she used weapons from the envinronment.

Originally posted by Deadline
OK maybe the second page is a bit hard to read with all those panel, but how did she own him? I mean she got knocked down at one point and you can see she's wounded..... I can reword: decisively beat, instead of trash? Punisher gets the jump on her, armed to the teeth, they trade blows in close quarters, and she disables him and wins. It's just clearly a tier above in terms of skill etc, although I'd push for Punisher to be HS anyways, largely because of his gear.

The weapons she used are the ones Frank dropped. Nevertheless, Frank had her down, and walked away, which gave her the opportunity to use them.

Furthermore, within the forum, the fight starts 0.5 km apart, in a featureless environment. Not in an apartment, where she can get close quarters.

Originally posted by Deadline
OK maybe the second page is a bit hard to read with all those panel, but how did she own him? I mean she got knocked down at one point and you can see she's wounded.....

EDIT: Hate to say this but it looks like she almost lost the fight against Frank which Phil seems to be implying since she used weapons from the envinronment. Weapons from the environment? Frank pulled those knives, she disarmed him and used them against him.

It's a clear victory, no matter what context you want to emphasize.

Meh, that's speculation.

My vote is no, based on feats. Maybe when she shows more.

She has a sniper as standard equipment?

Deadshot has better. So does Tim Drake. And much, much better standard equipment. Would you like me to show some? They're mid street, btw.

Originally posted by Smurph
I can reword: decisively beat, instead of trash? Punisher gets the jump on her, armed to the teeth, they trade blows in close quarters, and she disables him and wins. It's just clearly a tier above in terms of skill etc, although I'd push for Punisher to be HS anyways, largely because of his gear.

Nah sorry just had a look at that panel again. Blsck Widow won that fight because Punisher turned his back not because shes more skillful. Ok maybe if he hadn't turned his back she could have still won bust she waas losing and that's why she won in this instance.

I still think she should be in HS though.

i can def see where smurph's coming from with widow but the line between ms and hs is pretty blurry. i don't see it as a large error keeping her where she is. /shrug

regarding nate--i still don't reliably see him as high herald, though again, it is close and i wouldn't call leaving him, OR bumping him, any kind of egregious error. and let's try and keep that in mind as we deliberate characters--the goal is to find a solid, defensible place for them. if as solid a case can be made AGAINST a character moving up a tier, as FOR said character moving up, they are likely fine wherever they are.

Anyhow, I'm against moving Black Widow - and Tim Drake, Deadshot, Punisher, Catman, Hush and Moon Knight. The tiers are thin as it is, nevermind stuffing them all at high street.

Originally posted by Smurph
I dunno, she changes guns a bunch.

My point (obviously) was that she's not limited to close quarters, although I don't think your argument on that point tracks very well anyways. I never said she's limited to that, I said that the starting distance doesn't favor her - specifically so when the examples you used of her capabilities are in a room. And even more specifically, when you showed her feats at range, of which people in her own tier have better feats, with better standard equipment to use.

I do agree with your Elektra point, but those are not unseen in the mid-tiers . Consistently, I don't see her there. This could, of course, change in the future - as I do agree she'll get a push . But we need the in-comic book stuff.

Originally posted by leonidas
and let's try and keep that in mind as we deliberate characters--the goal is to find a solid, defensible place for them. if as solid a case can be made AGAINST a character moving up a tier, as FOR said character moving up, they are likely fine wherever they are. I also agree with this. Tbh, the line IS very thin , but the street in particular is VERY small. There's just too few characters, and if we clump all of them into one tier, the low/mid one would basically be garbage, lol.

Originally posted by leonidas
i can def see where smurph's coming from with widow but the line between ms and hs is pretty blurry. i don't see it as a large error keeping her where she is. /shrug

regarding nate--i still don't reliably see him as high herald, though again, it is close and i wouldn't call leaving him, OR bumping him, any kind of egregious error. and let's try and keep that in mind as we deliberate characters--the goal is to find a solid, defensible place for them. if as solid a case can be made AGAINST a character moving up a tier, as FOR said character moving up, they are likely fine wherever they are. Fair enough - that's a reasonable approach, even if I think those two characters are placed incorrectly.

Some of this is general power creep, too. I do think that BW made a big leap in ability where other characters made small jumps, but pretty much everybody's getting better feats across the board nowadays.

i could see her moving in the next year maybe, as she accumulates more and more feats. she's been around long enough anyway--she's one of the characters that DESERVES a small bump. so long as they don't go crazy all of a sudden with her. and since she's still russian, i don't imagine they will. lol