Michael Korvac vs. Monarch

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twt
Michael Korvac (Korvac Saga) vs. Monarch (Countdown)

Who wins this fight?

Putinbot1
Korvac

leonidas
no doubt korvac would have the necessary power to shatter monarch's armor. of course, i don't know that korvac could live through the result of that. monarch threads usually suck because the person has to be powerful enough to rupture his armor (not that huge a deal) but then live through the explosion. hard to prove someone could simply knock him out. /shrug

One Big Mob
Hey Leo! Long time no speak! How's it been?

You should look through the Guardians 3000 series and see if you can find some wank in there for Korvac (and subsequent Korvac Saga from Secret Wars). Get it before Alberto gets it I always say. thumb up

Once old Al gets hold of it, we ain't going back to the truth.

Putinbot1
Even the collector could do pocket universes. Korvac could reality warp as well.

abhilegend
Originally posted by leonidas
no doubt korvac would have the necessary power to shatter monarch's armor. of course, i don't know that korvac could live through the result of that. monarch threads usually suck because the person has to be powerful enough to rupture his armor (not that huge a deal) but then live through the explosion. hard to prove someone could simply knock him out. /shrug
Why would Korvac have the power to breach the suit?

quanchi112
Korvac wins.

Bentley
Originally posted by abhilegend
Why would Korvac have the power to breach the suit?

Korvac was able to resurrect Starhawk after their brief combat and he killed Hercules easily while heavily troubled. He's implied to be skyfather level through that arc.

leonidas
at least. he told thor he was beyond gods like odin and zeus and i fully believe he was. and you don't need to be that high of a level to rupture the suit anyway.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Bentley
Korvac was able to resurrect Starhawk after their brief combat and he killed Hercules easily while heavily troubled. He's implied to be skyfather level through that arc.
That's supposed to be able to impress me against the likes of Monarch? Originally posted by leonidas
at least. he told thor he was beyond gods like odin and zeus and i fully believe he was. and you don't need to be that high of a level to rupture the suit anyway.
Uh-huh. That's why a future sorecer supreme essentially oneshotted Korvac, eh?

leonidas
geezus. you are something else. i feel you used to have more sense. now you see something marvel and just....lose it. wtf is wrong with you?

you mean THIS "one-shot?"

https://imgur.com/a/TGkCbec

where krugarr placed the BABY korvac (just minutes old and NOT yet at full power) in a dimension where his powers didn't work? you must be fukking kidding. is your default setting now auto-lowball/misrepresent anything marvel? i had enough of this sh!t last go round. and of course placing the baby in some dimension outside of physical space is a feat replicable by monarch? geezus. could it be anymore irrelevant? yeah, you're right, totally proves monarch>korvac. laughing out loud some alternate lantern has his ring go critical and it ruptures his armor, but korvac can't because....you say so. feats for that lantern and his ring?

you're becoming a blind, rabid anti-marvel-fanboy. debating you is simply no longer worth the headache.

abhilegend
Originally posted by leonidas
geezus. you are something else. i feel you used to have more sense. now you see something marvel and just....lose it. wtf is wrong with you?

Lose it? WTF are you talking about?

Yes.

That wasn't baby Korvac (Korvac transferred all his power to his descendents) and this was full power Korvac. Krugarr first placed him in a mystic bubble which not even Korvac could break and then to a different dimension.

Yes, Quantum realm is outside known physical space and even Captain Atom can banish beings there.

Because that was before Monarch had absorbed 52 captain atoms and became far more powerful.

laughing out loud

I never even said that Korvac loses here.

Bentley
Originally posted by abhilegend
That wasn't baby Korvac


Actually it was baby Korvac. Reread the comic.



Edit: I actually don't recommend rereading Korvac quest, those comics are kind of sh_t

abhilegend
Originally posted by Bentley
Actually it was baby Korvac. Reread the comic.



Edit: I actually don't recommend rereading Korvac quest, those comics are kind of sh_t
Korvac was transferring all his power in his descendents. There is no proof that the baby was not at full power.

Bentley
Originally posted by abhilegend
Korvac was transferring all his power in his descendents. There is no proof that the baby was not at full power.

Korvac was sending his power through time and in several of those occasions it was explicitly stated that his descendants were unable to fully tap into his potential. Indeed, the need of time for adapting to those powers was stated during that plotline and was an integral part of it. Again, reread the comic.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Bentley
Korvac was sending his power through time and in several of those occasions it was explicitly stated that his descendants were unable to fully tap into his potential. Indeed, the need of time for adapting to those powers was stated during that plotline and was an integral part of it. Again, reread the comic.
Hence why he needed to be reborn to wield the full power and later Galactus drained all the power Korvac had stolen from him.

Bentley
Originally posted by abhilegend
Hence why he needed to be reborn to wield the full power and later Galactus drained all the power Korvac had stolen from him.

He was in baby form and only a few minutes old, if he could fully wield his power it's anyone's guess considered we know others needed time to adapt to it. By Strange's own admission the very existence of the whole timeline depended on getting rid of him, he implied there was haste to act and one possible reason is not to let Korvac get a full hang on his powers.

Not only we don't know how strong Krugarr is at that point, but he also sent him into an specific dimension where his powers became unactive.

We know that teleporting Korvac outside regular space is not enough to render him useless: A weakened Korvac was dispelled into several dimensions by Red Skull and he still managed to come back from that destruction unaided.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Bentley
He was in baby form and only a few minutes old, if he could fully wield his power it's anyone's guess considered we know others needed time to adapt to it. By Strange's own admission the very existence of the whole timeline depended on getting rid of him, he implied there was haste to act and one possible reason is not to let Korvac get a full hang on his powers.

Considering he killed his father who had the full power of Korvac, it's not guessworthy at all.

https://i.postimg.cc/phvbjgs5/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/RJCksw5M/image.jpg


And Galactus took all the power Korvac stole from him.


https://i.postimg.cc/VJZ37JDw/image.jpg



No, he contained Korvac in a force field and took him to outside physical place.

Also Krugarr was a rookie and shown to be below Dr Strange in power.


Krugarr took him beyond physical space.

zopzop
Originally posted by Bentley
Not only we don't know how strong Krugarr is at that point, but he also sent him into an specific dimension where his powers became unactive.

We know that teleporting Korvac outside regular space is not enough to render him useless: A weakened Korvac was dispelled into several dimensions by Red Skull and he still managed to come back from that destruction unaided.
Not for anything but during a Galactic Guardians story arc, a group of villains wanted to resurrect Korvac and they created a being that was "equal parts Michael the Enemy, Korvac and Mainframe."

A PF avatar BFs him into another reality and that was the end of the fight.
https://i.postimg.cc/PL7VyMTC/gotg-an-02-31.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/34HSzx0h/gotg-an-02-32.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/R6nsDnZX/gotg-an-02-33.jpg

Bentley
Zopzop I was waiting for you. I'll handle you in a moment biscuits

-----

Originally posted by abhilegend
Considering he killed his father who had the full power of Korvac, it's not guessworthy at all.

https://i.postimg.cc/phvbjgs5/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/RJCksw5M/image.jpg

He had the power (it's stated in panel), but that doesn't mean he knows how to use it, because his Ancestors also had that power.


Originally posted by abhilegend
And Galactus took all the power Korvac stole from him.


https://i.postimg.cc/VJZ37JDw/image.jpg

Thanks for the scan.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Also Krugarr was a rookie and shown to be below Dr Strange in power.

"But, it's not my power that need concern you. Rather, it is the power of my disciple!"

As a reply of Korvac not fearing Strange's power does suggest Krugarr >> Strange at that point.


Originally posted by abhilegend
No, he contained Korvac in a force field and took him to outside physical place.

Krugarr took him beyond physical space.

"He placed the infant in a realm that exists outside of physical space, Vance Astro. It is a dimension in which not even his power can function"

He explicitly mentions a specific realm/dimension that blocks his powers. It's on panel

abhilegend
Originally posted by Bentley


He had the power (it's stated in panel), but that doesn't mean he knows how to use it, because his Ancestors also had that power.

What? He casually killed his father who had full power of Korvac for much longer but suddenly he isn't that powerful?

OK?

I'm talking about 616 Dr Strange, GOTG Strange wasn't as powerful as he was in his prime.

After he invoked a spell which bound him.

https://i.imgur.com/SoGm7fA.jpg

"Mystic globe of gazan".

Anyway it really doesn't matter as Monarch can easily BFR him to quantum realm which is outside physical universe too.

zopzop
Originally posted by Bentley
Zopzop I was waiting for you. I'll handle you in a moment biscuits

-----



He had the power (it's stated in panel), but that doesn't mean he knows how to use it, because his Ancestors also had that power.

Again, this isn't 100% true. Yes, the key to beating the Korvac's ancestors was to overwhelm them before the Korvac personality took over.
https://i.postimg.cc/G9ZnPVRn/3313691-22.jpg

This failed against Jaboa Murphy :
https://i.postimg.cc/nsLWfGx1/3313693-24.jpg
and Reed had to time travel to get the UN beams and redirect them at Korvac :
https://i.postimg.cc/w7dbjpHM/3313695-26.jpg

The Korvac personality never even manifested in his later ancestors : Varley and Marshach.

Even in the 30th Century the Korvac personality never manifested itself in his father.

BUT................... when the child Korvac was born, he manifested the Korvac personality at birth :
https://i.postimg.cc/qhNMqKss/3313751-21.jpg

And if you doubt the baby Korvac had the full power and knowledge of adult Korvac :
https://i.postimg.cc/nj25ySjT/3313762-mh2006-02-korvac-quest.jpg

Bentley

Bentley
Originally posted by zopzop
And if you doubt the baby Korvac had the full power and knowledge of adult Korvac :
https://i.postimg.cc/nj25ySjT/3313762-mh2006-02-korvac-quest.jpg

Damn it Zop, I told you I was going to handle you after I finished up with Abhi.

Of course he had Korvac's knowledge (he speaks, remembers and syphons his father's Powers) and he does have his power (it's stated right on panel). But that doesn't mean his power is in sync with his physical form at the moment of birth or the few minutes after he gets it. When I say "he doesn't know how to use it" I'm not talking about mental acuteness but also his physical capability of digesting that body to make full use of it.

There is no statement on panel saying he is in perfect sync with his abilities or that he needs adapting, but it's implied that he is a true danger for the whole universe and that there is haste in handling him, which at least suggest he could grow bigger in influence and scope.

abhilegend

zopzop
Originally posted by Bentley
Damn it Zop, I told you I was going to handle you after I finished up with Abhi.

Of course he had Korvac's knowledge (he speaks, remembers and syphons his father's Powers) and he does have his power (it's stated right on panel). But that doesn't mean his power is in sync with his physical form at the moment of birth or the few minutes after he gets it. When I say "he doesn't know how to use it" I'm not talking about mental acuteness but also his physical capability of digesting that body to make full use of it.

There is no statement on panel saying he is in perfect sync with his abilities or that he needs adapting, but it's implied that he is a true danger for the whole universe and that there is haste in handling him, which at least suggest he could grow bigger in influence and scope.
I'm done with this topic, I just wanted to point out that Abhi wasn't completely wrong.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Bentley
Damn it Zop, I told you I was going to handle you after I finished up with Abhi.

Of course he had Korvac's knowledge (he speaks, remembers and syphons his father's Powers) and he does have his power (it's stated right on panel). But that doesn't mean his power is in sync with his physical form at the moment of birth or the few minutes after he gets it. When I say "he doesn't know how to use it" I'm not talking about mental acuteness but also his physical capability of digesting that body to make full use of it.

There is no statement on panel saying he is in perfect sync with his abilities or that he needs adapting, but it's implied that he is a true danger for the whole universe and that there is haste in handling him, which at least suggest he could grow bigger in influence and scope.
That's just your assumption. A fully grown human with Korvac's power got killed by the baby (you assumed he had less control over the power automatically too).

Your argument literally contradicts on panel stuff.

abhilegend
Originally posted by zopzop
I'm done with this topic, I just wanted to point out that Abhi wasn't completely wrong.
I'm not wrong at all. Bentley is literally using his assumptions as facts as if they prove I'm wrong.

Bentley
Originally posted by abhilegend
So you are saying that the baby Korvac didn't have the full power of Korvac because of what exactly? That he killed his father who had much more time to use it?

Korvac did have the full power and he beat his father because he also have more knowledge of that power. That doesn't mean he doesn't need time to adapt as I explained in my reply to Zopzop those are different things.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, when Krugarr trapped Korvac, he was still undergoing training for sorcerer supreme.

He still picked a disciple of his own, but maybe they upped the caps needed to deserve the title? It's an alternate reality so it's really hard to compare with 616 Strange anyways.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Which was done AFTER he cast the globe.

Not according to on-panel dialogue. I just cited Strange explaining what the spell does.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Quantum realm is outside physical realm. That's only thing needed to depower Korvac.

A specific realm outside the physical realm, a specific dimension. That's what depowered Korvac. The dialogue says it twice.

Originally posted by abhilegend
But I like to see how Korvac wins here.

That's another argument for another day.

Bentley
Originally posted by abhilegend
That's just your assumption. A fully grown human with Korvac's power got killed by the baby (you assumed he had less control over the power automatically too).

Your argument literally contradicts on panel stuff.

The situation is tricky because Michael's father is supposed to have his full power but the Baby is born with The Enemy's full consiousness. How is that even possible without a shard of the power being linked within Baby Michael himself?

In 616 Korvac must've set his power to delve into his baby form and that preemptive trigger was beyond the control the Father got. The writting is still pretty sloppy (Korvac Quest is terrible) but that's really the best explanation we can give to Baby Michael suddenly getting glowy and talking*.

*- well, that's not entirely true, I have another idea for why that happened as if, but it's still pretty sloppy and still goes with the idea that Michael's Father was to lost that power by a built-in trigger (just a different one).

Originally posted by zopzop
I'm done with this topic, I just wanted to point out that Abhi wasn't completely wrong.

He isn't. I think that specific argument can be defended.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Bentley
Korvac did have the full power and he beat his father because he also have more knowledge of that power. That doesn't mean he doesn't need time to adapt as I explained in my reply to Zopzop those are different things.

And this is based on what exactly?

Oh gee, another assumption which now I have to take as a fact don't I?

Except it was a mystical globe and not an alternate dimension.

Which happened after he was trapped in the globe.

Uh-huh.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Bentley
The situation is tricky because Michael's father is supposed to have his full power but the Baby is born with The Enemy's full consiousness. How is that even possible without a shard of the power being linked within Baby Michael himself?

Because Korvac used his power to manifest it in every generation. Coupled that with the knowledge he could drain it from his father.

Or the power was supposed to be passed to each new generation as they were born as explained.

One Big Mob
All babies have the power of their adult form. Gayby Bentley vs Fully Ripened Bentley would be won on creativity and wits alone, not raw power. As a baby, he's not bound by facts or ignorance, and I think him having no hard cap there would prove Bodyhair Bentley's undoing.

Bentley
Originally posted by abhilegend
And this is based on what exactly?

Experience from reading other comics. When a character just gained huge powers under a different body it tends to ask for a period of adaptation.

He also remained in his baby form visually, which doesn't exactly scream "Peak Korvac".

He also was stated to be a threat for the entire timeline if left unchecked (which suggests Krugarr could not just jump at him and BFR him at any given time). This is in panel.

There are reasons to lead towards interpretations other than your assumption of "Korvac was at his pick and he got one-shotted".

Originally posted by abhilegend
Oh gee, another assumption which now I have to take as a fact don't I?

It is a fact he trained another disciple on his own. The statement backing up Krugarr's power is right there in panel.

You are trying to pretend Krugarr is somehow a budget version of 616 Strange (which might be possible?). I'm just openly questioning your line of logic.


Originally posted by abhilegend
Except it was a mystical globe and not an alternate dimension.

Which happened after he was trapped in the globe.


Except that's not what we are being told in panel erm

"What did he do?"

"He used a binding spell to put him in a globe and then sent him into a different dimension" - said Strange, never

The dialogue is there to clear up what we see on the depiction: Korvac is in a different dimension away from our physical plane and we are still seeing his body. Is that standard for BFR or binding spells? Short answer given by Strange: the orb consists in a pocket realm where Korvac is depowered.

Abhi's explanation of why we can still see Korvac?

Bentley
Originally posted by abhilegend
Because Korvac used his power to manifest it in every generation. Coupled that with the knowledge he could drain it from his father.

Or the power was supposed to be passed to each new generation as they were born as explained.

Yes, that second instance was the other logic I was about to mention. It's probably contradicted by the other characters we saw in Korvac's quest, but these comics aren't very good.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Bentley
Experience from reading other comics. When a character just gained huge powers under a different body it tends to ask for a period of adaptation.

He also remained in his baby form visually, which doesn't exactly scream "Peak Korvac".

So, just your assumption then? Good to know.

Neither says that Korvac was at less than full capacity. The bio states explicitly otherwise.

Yes, that doesn't mean he was at full power. In fact he was straight up stated to be weakened.

As a trainee opposed to a full blown version of sorcerer supreme? Yes.


Uh-huh. And there is no indication that Korvac was weakened but here we are.

Right. But hey, let's see what excuse is there when just fighting Thor is enough energy drainage for Korvac that he got killed by a simple anti matter blast.

https://i.postimg.cc/RW1QvGxH/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/679VqRB1/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/FfDyLRRF/image.jpg

Bentley
The other descendants also have Michael's full power and were less impressive awesr

In the alternate universe of the Guardians the Living Tribunal wanted the Eye of Agamotto to defeat Protege who was abstract level. How powerful is the Sorcerer Supreme supposed to be in this specific instance it's hard to gauge, the people with the title widely fluctuate in power levels and were sometimes used as plot devices. Trying to scale down Michael by using Kruggar needs more proof than just hanging in titles.

I think it's within reason to think Korvac wasn't at his peak for the in panel reasons I listed. But it's up to interpretation, he might be in full capacity thumb up

What I don't see is how do you figure Krugarr casts two different spells when no gestures are made for a second one and that the BFR visuals make no sense. I also don't see how we go to having access from a "realm" a specific "dimension" to using Quantum Space as a method of depowering.

Korvac was permanently depowered after being beaten by Red Skull. The Hazmat showing doesn't apply to this version of the character.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Bentley
The other descendants also have Michael's full power and were less impressive awesr

That doesn't apply to Korvac himself.

We know he was far below Dormammu in power though. So Krugarr was a typical sorcerer supreme.

Fair enough.

Proof?

Bentley
https://imgur.com/a/N0b0ZcD

"Michael is not omnipotent, his defeats have weakened him"

Then she goes to talk about Red Skull.

But maybe you want to take that statement as an implication that Korvac Saga Michael is stronger than Korvac Quest Michael? mmm

Bentley
Originally posted by abhilegend
We know he was far below Dormammu in power though. So Krugarr was a typical sorcerer supreme.


You mean because of that time an amped alternate Dormammu caught him unaware in the Dark Dimension? I could see many legit skyfathers being defeated under similar conditions.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Bentley
https://imgur.com/a/N0b0ZcD

"Michael is not omnipotent, his defeats have weakened him"

Then she goes to talk about Red Skull.

But maybe you want to take that statement as an implication that Korvac Saga Michael is stronger than Korvac Quest Michael? mmm
The scene straight up says that Red Skull used anti matter to destroy him even before he was weakened.

Originally posted by Bentley
You mean because of that time an amped alternate Dormammu caught him unaware in the Dark Dimension? I could see many legit skyfathers being defeated under similar conditions.
Actually he was overpowered by random minions.

https://i.postimg.cc/hffGyyM0/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/MvNph7FJ/image.jpg

But hey, Krugarr to skyfather level since he defeated Korvac, eh?

Bentley
Originally posted by abhilegend
The scene straight up says that Red Skull used anti matter to destroy him even before he was weakened.

He did shield against a Cosmic Cube level being before going down. Red Skull overpowered him before he used antimatter to dispel his physical body.

The narration implies that maybe he lost a part of his power by the time of that confrontation, but I believe Red Skull would've punked Korvac regardless, so the point is moot.


Originally posted by abhilegend
Actually he was overpowered by random minions.

I can see current Odin going down like that biscuits


Originally posted by abhilegend
But hey, Krugarr to skyfather level since he defeated Korvac, eh?

I haven't claimed he is skyfather level and certainly not because of that.

Krugarr is a wizard and he got physically tangled by minions he thought inactive which is something PIS/CIS can justify. He then faced Dormammu face to face. There are characters that can be handled physically and are powerful such as mages and telepaths.

Going by feats, Krugarr sits comfortably above Herald level.

He also happened to use a convenient BFR spell that neutered Korvac. There are plenty of examples of less powerful characters displacing much powerful opponents, recently the Gamemaster got sent into a place where he couldn't regenerate by Shatterstar and in your favorite Fantastic Four comic
Franklin Richards teleported the Mad Celestials against their will despite being more powerful.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Bentley
He did shield against a Cosmic Cube level being before going down. Red Skull overpowered him before he used antimatter to dispel his physical body.

The narration implies that maybe he lost a part of his power by the time of that confrontation, but I believe Red Skull would've punked Korvac regardless, so the point is moot.

No, it implied that the defeat at the hands of Skull weakened him. Same red skull was also killed by anti matter bath too.

Naturally.

By what feats?

This wasn't shown against Krugarr though. Ancient One also knew the spell but it was power of Krugarr which defeated Korvac and Korvac was never shown more powerful than him.

Bentley
Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it implied that the defeat at the hands of Skull weakened him. Same red skull was also killed by anti matter bath too.

Marvel Anti-matter > DC Antimatter, ask Thanos stick out tongue

Red Skull still had to overpower Korvac's shields before dispelling his body though. He was already more powerful than Korvac was since he wanted to get his hands on the Cosmic Cube from the get to go.

Even if you could use anti-matter on him and we admit that's enough, you'd need to overpower his defenses. Korvac was already weakened in his body when Hazmat applied her attack.

Originally posted by abhilegend
By what feats?

After he got released from his captivity he went to fight Dormammu who had previously redirected the energies of Doctor Strange, Phoenix, Firelord, Spirit of Vengeance, Holywood and Aletta. Considering how Giraud is constantly shown as being above Starhawk and Firelord he is packing a lot of power.

He held his own solo vs that Dormammu and beat him handily after he amped himself with Doctor Strange's departed soul and Talon (who is quite a nobody).

Originally posted by abhilegend
This wasn't shown against Krugarr though. Ancient One also knew the spell but it was power of Krugarr which defeated Korvac and Korvac was never shown more powerful than him.

I'm pointing out being able to BFR an opponent into a more convenient position doesn't mean you are downright able to overpower him not that power is not needed at all to perform the feat.

Given how magics work the Ancient One might not be powerful enough to make the spell work on someone like Korvac. Yet he can easily handle skyfather level energies as shown vs Dormammu despite his old age.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Bentley
Marvel Anti-matter > DC Antimatter, ask Thanos stick out tongue

Yep, COIE happened in marvel.

And?

Monarch can easily overpower his defenses.

He was amped there.

Yeah, Talon only restrained Galactus with crimson bands of Cyttorak. Nobody really.

Right. And this proves what?

Even base Captain Atom has drained Nekron when he was killing entire universe. Am I supposed to be impressed with that?

zopzop
Originally posted by Bentley
Marvel

After he got released from his captivity he went to fight Dormammu who had previously redirected the energies of Doctor Strange, Phoenix, Firelord, Spirit of Vengeance, Holywood and Aletta. Considering how Giraud is constantly shown as being above Starhawk and Firelord he is packing a lot of power.

He held his own solo vs that Dormammu and beat him handily after he amped himself with Doctor Strange's departed soul and Talon (who is quite a nobody).

Sorry, I just wanted to point out that Dormammu was severely weakened by the time Krueggar took him out :
https://i.postimg.cc/947YL89R/image.jpg

How weakened? He was sh|tting his pants at the thought of fighting some Mindless Ones :
https://i.postimg.cc/qhHXSscm/image.jpg

Bentley
Originally posted by zopzop
Sorry, I just wanted to point out that Dormammu was severely weakened by the time Krueggar took him out :
https://i.postimg.cc/947YL89R/image.jpg

How weakened? He was sh|tting his pants at the thought of fighting some Mindless Ones :
https://i.postimg.cc/qhHXSscm/image.jpg


He was fearing the Mindless Ones after fighting Krugarr. Technically the only thing that happened between redirecting skyfather level energies and him fighting Krugarr was Charly-27 and Yellowjacket buying time vs him. So unless the argument is that class 5 punches and stingers weakened much below Skyfather it's still a decent showing by Krugarr.

Bentley
Originally posted by abhilegend
Monarch can easily overpower his defenses.

I'm just dispelling the notion having Anti-matter is an autowin for Korvac.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He was amped there.

An amp that still weights his Powers vs that of several heralds if we compare what Strange needed to stand his ground vs Dormammu. He did start fighting Dormy unamped too.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, Talon only restrained Galactus with crimson bands of Cyttorak. Nobody really.

And Thing toppled Galactus. If Talon is so good in which tier would you place him? Who would be the strongest DC character he can defeat?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Right. And this proves what?

That is within reason to believe Korvac is above Krugarr for some margin. His other showings imply as much.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Even base Captain Atom has drained Nekron when he was killing entire universe. Am I supposed to be impressed with that?

I'm just dispelling the notion that the Ancient One Strange is so much of a feeb that his magic power is not worthy of note. By Korvac's admission Krugarr is his superior but technically neither of them are in this fight.

How would you react if I tried to reduce Nekron to that single showing vs Captain Atom? That's pretty much what I'm doing here. You have already used about 10 different arguments to try to scale down Korvac but I'm showing they aren't definite proof case by case.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Bentley
I'm just dispelling the notion having Anti-matter is an autowin for Korvac.

It is at such levels.

Uh-huh. Dormammu was weakened fighting those characters, he didn't weaken AFTER fighting those characters.

The power he lent to Krugarr can't be ignored just because your boy Korvac lost to him straight up, without any amps.

If only Krugarr hadn't made him his *****.

Uh-huh.

Even there Nekron was a death abstract, Korvac isn't.

Korvac isn't a match for Monarch, hell Galactus isn't. The sooner you accept it, the better.

Bentley
Originally posted by abhilegend
Uh-huh. Dormammu was weakened fighting those characters, he didn't weaken AFTER fighting those characters.

He was clearly weakened, but he still went from redirecting skyfather level energies to fighting Krugarr with almost no time in between most of the "weakening" happened before that point. Krugarr was also fighting him solo before getting amped.


Originally posted by abhilegend
The power he lent to Krugarr can't be ignored just because your boy Korvac lost to him straight up, without any amps.

Again, how much power did Talon had to spare? Phoenix level energies? herald level?

Dormammu handled:

Strange + Holywood + Firelord + Spirit of Vengeance + Aletta + Phoenix Giraud

then he got beat by:

Krugarr + Strange + Talon

How many heralds would you say Talon replaces in those equations? Two? Three?

Krugarr used a silver bullet spell most opponents are not able to replicate.

Originally posted by abhilegend
If only Krugarr hadn't made him his *****.

Language.


Originally posted by abhilegend
Even there Nekron was a death abstract, Korvac isn't.

And Doctor Doom is actually a drop out and not a doctor. Titles mean nothing. You know reducing Nekron to that showing is something you wouldn't allow.


Originally posted by abhilegend
Korvac isn't a match for Monarch, hell Galactus isn't. The sooner you accept it, the better.

I haven't given my opinion on how this battle goes since I haven't read Monarch's arc in a while. You should bump a Galactus vs Monarch thread if you want someone to argue that with.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Bentley
He was clearly weakened, but he still went from redirecting skyfather level energies to fighting Krugarr with almost no time in between most of the "weakening" happened before that point. Krugarr was also fighting him solo before getting amped.

So? It only means that Dormammu was weakened by channeling that much power.

"Not nothing" level.

Not quantifiable because Dormammu was weakened in between.

Yeah, BFR is so uncommon.



Sorry mom.

Actually its one of his best showings where he was killing the entire universe after controlling quantum field. Why wouldn't I use it?

Yeah, right. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing now.

Monarch beats Korvac, deal with it.

Bentley
Originally posted by abhilegend
So? It only means that Dormammu was weakened by channeling that much power.

He said he was weakened by battling so many different opponents, so it's only accounted for a part of it.


Originally posted by abhilegend
"Not nothing" level.

Not quantifiable because Dormammu was weakened in between.

I rather call it "Krugarr functioning well above herald level".

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, BFR is so uncommon.

Again. Towards an specific realm where not even Korvac's extensive Powers work.

We've gone over this for a number of times in this very debate.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Sorry mom.

It's ok, we can all have a bad day.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Actually its one of his best showings where he was killing the entire universe after controlling quantum field. Why wouldn't I use it?

So Nekron's best is getting handled by a high herald? Ok I guess.


Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, right. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing now.

Monarch beats Korvac, deal with it.

If I think you are misrepresenting a character I'm allowed to express my disagreement on how you interpret the scans.

Also maybe I'll feel like readng more on Monarch later and give out an opinion on the topic, unlike other posters here I have intellectual honesty to spare.

zopzop
Originally posted by Bentley
He was fearing the Mindless Ones after fighting Krugarr.
Yes, I know. This occured after he fought an Krugarr amped by the power of the Ancient One aka Dr. Strange.



Again, yes. Dormammu admits that the fight with the Galactic Guardians and Guardians of the Galaxy weakened him far more than he realized.
https://i.postimg.cc/947YL89R/image.jpg
And it still took a Krueggar amped by the Ancient One's power to drive him off.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Bentley
He said he was weakened by battling so many different opponents, so it's only accounted for a part of it.

No, it was the only reason he was weakened.

Well, you're, well you.

It's just the lack of physical realm. Nothing extra special.

Uh-huh.

Uh-huh.

If only either Korvac or Galactus were ever shown to be universal killers, eh?

Well you're certainly allowed to be wrong.

Are you going to check if they are stuttering to see if they are lying?

Senor Cage
Monarch.

Bentley

Putinbot1
Korvac

abhilegend

Bentley
Originally posted by abhilegend
That's exactly what was said, he was already weakened when facing Krugarr.

https://i.postimg.cc/TwZ00GFP/image.jpg

Later Dormmamu thinks "This long battle with so many varied opponents has weakened me far more than I realized!". He is not tired just because of his scuffle with Strange (and that fight wasn't even very long). Sure it all adds up, but just a moment before he was confident he would overpower Strange and did so, little happened in between.


Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, it was said to be a realm with no physical space, nothing special.

Well, that's something you say as if it was self evident somehow. We can see Korvac's body on panel but it's in a place with no physical space. If that's a junior version of Un-space...

Your interpretation IS plausible with the context we are given. I'm not entirely sure whether a place has "no physical space" or not without an explicit statement.

But sure, why not thumb up

As long as you agree we have no reason to believe Krugarr bind him as a separate action from his BFR I think this instance is covered.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'd like to see where Galactus was killing an entire universe on his own. Or Korvac. Nekron losing to Captain Atom channeling all of quantum realm is not jobbing.

Galactus has never killed an universo on his own. When he got weaponized by Thanos or during the Dreaming Celestial storyline it was shown his Powers are enough to bust the universe and that's about that.

Korvac never reached that kind of potential and I don't think he ever Will.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, you're wrong. Deal with it.

Debate better?

I can be wrong mate I'm just not getting why you hang to these bad arguments.

If you really think Krugarr overpowered Korvac then you have to aknowledge he's beyond herald level. But you just want to have your cake and eat it too, claiming Krugarr must be meh so that confused Korvac maybe killed Hercules with a lucky blast?

I respect you as a debater and I'm having a good time having knowledge checks on these characters. If that's being wrong being right is overrated thumb up

Originally posted by abhilegend
Ah right, only you are able to find such clues. How convenient.

Sorry for reading by myself, I guess?

abhilegend
Originally posted by Bentley
Later Dormmamu thinks "This long battle with so many varied opponents has weakened me far more than I realized!". He is not tired just because of his scuffle with Strange (and that fight wasn't even very long). Sure it all adds up, but just a moment before he was confident he would overpower Strange and did so, little happened in between.

Wut? It's straight up said that he is already weakened but you have to insert your views in the comic, eh?

That's what the comic says. It's a realm without physical space, nothing special about it.

No, it's not. And again, in the same book a Korvac clone lost by simple BFR to another reality.

Yeah, Krugarr oneshotted Korvac like a *****.

Both times it was by a chain reaction. Not outright power.

That's what I thought.

Uh-huh.

Oh Korvac is above herald level, doesn't mean Krugarr is too.

mmm



ermm

This is pointless at this point.

Bentley
We reached agreement in a number of points, so I think this was interesting beyond the entertainment value.

Now I might as well go back to the Korvac clone incident that Zopzop mentioned a few pages back:

Said clone is a mix of Mainframe, Korvac and Michael the Enemy according to the plot. Regular Korvac is somewhere between high meta to low herald and that version of Vision is pretty much a futuristic Bat computer. I don't really see either of them coming back from a dimensional BFR. It's possible that this version was just inferior to Michael alone, since its parts are inferior.

Such a simple BFR tactic doesn't apply to Michael though, he teleported effortlessly to the Infinite Avengers Mansion and he was able to even detect Carina from a different dimension. He also rearranged himself after being split by anti-matter and he didn't even have a physical form. Both of those feats were accomplished by weaker versions of Korvac. And let's not forget his ability to send his power through time.

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