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soooo, i seem to have raised something of a sh!tstorm.

good. when something has been around for a long time, it sometimes bares re-examining that thing. forum rules, and the way we look at battles, is just one of them.
i'll preface this whole thread and idea with this--my goal wasn't to overturn any applecarts, my goal was simply to try generating new and different discussions. lazy and sloppy debates have become sort of common place. that...probably won't change, but if we can generate something new, look at old battles in new ways, doesn't seem like a bad thing.

ANYWAY... my proposal is simple--i'd like to add a rule into the official rules that clarifies just what it means for a character to be IN CHARACTER. TO ME that would mean we use typical comic portrayal as the determining factor. as a a forum that professes to be character-based in argument formation (as opposed to power set based) it seems only logical we use comic portrayals as the determining factor.

this would mean that REGARDLESS OF PERCEIVED PIS, we look at what a character would do in a battle based on what they do in a comic.

"but leo, we're ignoring PIS!!"

no. superman still doesn't kill. he just....doesn't see opponents as statues at the start of a fight. why? because he's never entered a battle viewing opponents as statues--or rather, he ALMOST never has. flash wouldn't fight every battle at greater than light speed--or even light speed. why? because he doesn't do so in comics. if you think he does, the onus is on YOU to prove it. ss isn't transmuting anyone, and likely starts most battles blasting someone--unless YOU can prove different.

i like the idea for a couple reasons--it brings characters like flash BACK into matches. he isn't ending matches in an attosecond because, well, he doesn't.

this ALSO doesn't preclude FULL CAPACITY--it simply mitigates its usage. full capacity may depend on who is fighting whom. it will also heavily mitigate high end feats AND low end ones making them essentially illegal in many cases, because they are not typical performances.

and of course, any thread can dictate its OWN rules. so if you don't like this, you can simply put FULL CAP in your thread and play by your own rules.

so, looking for thoughts. i'd love to see a rule added whether it takes exactly the form i'm talking about or some variation.

have at it. and keep it civil.

How would you treat intelligence?

So Batman, as an example. Is fighting character X (Boulderine).

He tries his usual batarang. Bounces off.

Now, does he switch it up? How long would it take Batman to switch tactics?

Now, the next question is how do we treat speed. Is it a gear one switches into, or is it 'on', like durability?

Specific examples, I know, but quite vital. Speed of thought is pretty important when battling.....Which is why we have the CIS rule. The Spot being a perfect example of this.

Moreover.....

If I made a thread with two characters who are friends in comics (Booster vs Ted Kord, whatever), would we just go 'oh in character they will never fight, so this thread is dead?'

That would make a lot of threads redundant. Punisher automatically loses to Cap. Current Thor, even if I gave him Janbjorn and Mjolnir and the Belt of Strength etc, would lose to Jen because she'd just smash him. Etc etc.

In character is fine, up to a point. We have created threads where characters who, in character, would never fight each other. Hell, Superman would not normally fight WW. Does that mean we just end the thread at page 1?

Or do we assume actually, these guys are in the match, ready to fight, and ready to win?

Galan hit the nail on the head in the other thread. With this you just need some common sense when applying it

Character shields have to be present for "in character." So that means eventually Superman wins, Cap finds a way, to a point.

When in a Flash vs WW thread, I said WW won't go for killing blows and would hold back because they were friends, I was laughed at.

Well well.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
How would you treat intelligence?

So Batman, as an example. Is fighting character X (Boulderine).

He tries his usual batarang. Bounces off.

Now, does he switch it up? How long would it take Batman to switch tactics?

Now, the next question is how do we treat speed. Is it a gear one switches into, or is it 'on', like durability?

Specific examples, I know, but quite vital. Speed of thought is pretty important when battling.....Which is why we have the CIS rule. The Spot being a perfect example of this.

the last point is already defined in the rules:



of course with flash that could be very different--onus on the debater to prove.

intelligence? not sure i understand. imo, intelligence plays a limited role in a forum fight--at least it may be dependent on the environment. one might say bats can read opponents quicker--prove it--and use...whatever tactic he wants. he'd certainly face wh with a different mindset than superman might. i don't see why intelligence would be portrayed any differently.... /shrug only so many ways in a forum fight to outthink an opponent.

always comes down to speed, eh? how often in a comic do you think flash or superman ACTUALLY, and quantitatively fight at light speed? superman? almost never. he is restricted by environment. you might say--a forum has no environment. so, how often does he fight at lightspeed in space?

does this mean they still can't out-speed 99% of opponents? clearly not. but the while attosecond stuff? it's such a minute part of his achievements, that i don't see why THAT should be the go-to. that should be the last resort. maybe we should go back to giving wins out of 10. as battles progress, tactics would certainly change. again, let the books be the guides.

cis, like pis, remains unchanged--within the parameters of the comics.

I like all out more still. :3

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Moreover.....

If I made a thread with two characters who are friends in comics (Booster vs Ted Kord, whatever), would we just go 'oh in character they will never fight, so this thread is dead?'

That would make a lot of threads redundant. Punisher automatically loses to Cap. Current Thor, even if I gave him Janbjorn and Mjolnir and the Belt of Strength etc, would lose to Jen because she'd just smash him. Etc etc.

In character is fine, up to a point. We have created threads where characters who, in character, would never fight each other. Hell, Superman would not normally fight WW. Does that mean we just end the thread at page 1?

Or do we assume actually, these guys are in the match, ready to fight, and ready to win?

good guys fight all the time in comics. and an op could easily state--they are going at it like they were enemies. or maybe they just fight to ko each other, like they usually do in comics, which would mitigate the level of attacks they would go for. you know, like good guys actually WOULD do as defined by their character.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Galan hit the nail on the head in the other thread. With this you just need some common sense when applying it

unfortunately, this simply doesn't happen. a rule defining what is and isn't in character would, help enforce the common sense rule. maybe. it would at least give someone the option of saying--hey, dumba$$, that is power set debating, not character-based debating. take that sh!t somewhere else.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
Character shields have to be present for "in character." So that means eventually Superman wins, Cap finds a way, to a point.

character shields=pis. easily discounted, and no one would claim a character wins because they would win in a comic anyway. well, almost no one would say that....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
When in a Flash vs WW thread, I said WW won't go for killing blows and would hold back because they were friends, I was laughed at.

Well well.

and you'd be right on. anyone saying otherwise simply doesn't know what they are talking about.

except....he did EXACTLY that.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/40371220_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/40371221_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/40371222_image.jpg

Source: Superman v2, #74
Circa: December 1992




not really. it has the advantage of making threads against people with limited showings stupid. which....they are. but you're using some common sense in your approach, which is in short supply in most threads. AGAIN: it will depend on who is fighting whom. if superman is battling darkseid, he'd know what to do, and how powerful his attack should be. using full capacity though, darkseid will be a LITERAL statue for superman. it doesn't matter that ds is NEVER a statue when they meet. ever. unless you have proof of darkseid's speed, he is a statue. flash beats ds 100/100 because he speed steals. make sense? how is THAT any sort of reflection of the actual characters?

FULL CAPACITY attempts to force rl logic on....illogical and never-intended-to-be-used-this-way power sets. that is WHY we have claims of 'haxx' powers. because they were only ever intended to be used IN COMICS.

going back to the darkseid bit, common sense says darkseid would be able to react/attack/defend/defeat either superman or flash. but full capacity has superman hitting darkseid 100 000 times with planet busting force. common sense? of course not. a viable tactic in the forum? absolutely, based on the rules. speed steal ftw 100/100? by forum rule, viable, and brushed off as haxx. why accept that?

common sense fails in the established climate.

IN CHARACTER and FULL CAPACITY are IRRECONCILABLY opposed. how can FULL CAPACITY be IN CHARACTER, when IN CHARACTER, superman almost NEVER operates at FULL CAPACITY?

anyone?

I see it like this, you're either debating powerset or you're not. If you're debating powerset, the need of posting scans are irrelevant. Surfer goes in creating black holes, going intangible, sucking people into his board and soul sucking. Almost everyone that is debating FOR powerset style discussions always say Thor tends to go in swinging vs him using all of his abilities during the onset. This makes people like Kalibak, Mongul, Shaggyman, Damage, etc.. pointless against upper tier beings because they have nothing showing they could keep pace with the best of bricks that actually have decent speed showings, etc... I could make a Gladiator vs Darkseid thread and get away with saying Gladiator would curb him since well, Darkseid doesnt have a single showing proving he could keep pace or perceive Gladiator in an all out battle.

Darkseid vs Zoom - Darkseid loses
Darkseid vs Flash - Darkseid loses
Darkseid vs Wonder Woman - gets lassoed and stabbed to death
Darkseid vs Surfer - Darkseid loses

Wolverine have nuke level durability. Spiderman have Ultimate nullifier durability. Ya know, these two have survived these things.

Worst way to debate and it's a complete change over what has been consistent and stable for yrs throughout the forum.

says the guy who only debates powersets in every hulk thread

the way i see it, this is a BATTLE BOARD. as long as the feats posted are part of a characters average then anything should be usable. if i wanted to debate what a character would do IN A COMIC, i'd just read the damn comic.

Originally posted by leonidas
except....he did EXACTLY that.






not really. it has the advantage of making threads against people with limited showings stupid. which....they are. but you're using some common sense in your approach, which is in short supply in most threads. AGAIN: it will depend on who is fighting whom. if superman is battling darkseid, he'd know what to do, and how powerful his attack should be. using full capacity though, darkseid will be a LITERAL statue for superman. it doesn't matter that ds is NEVER a statue when they meet. ever. unless you have proof of darkseid's speed, he is a statue. flash beats ds 100/100 because he speed steals. make sense? how is THAT any sort of reflection of the actual characters?

FULL CAPACITY attempts to force rl logic on....illogical and never-intended-to-be-used-this-way power sets. that is WHY we have claims of 'haxx' powers. because they were only ever intended to be used IN COMICS.

going back to the darkseid bit, common sense says darkseid would be able to react/attack/defend/defeat either superman or flash. but full capacity has superman hitting darkseid 100 000 times with planet busting force. common sense? of course not. a viable tactic in the forum? absolutely, based on the rules. speed steal ftw 100/100? by forum rule, viable, and brushed off as haxx. why accept that?

common sense fails in the established climate.

IN CHARACTER and FULL CAPACITY are IRRECONCILABLY opposed. how can FULL CAPACITY be IN CHARACTER, when IN CHARACTER, superman almost NEVER operates at FULL CAPACITY?

anyone?
Yes, he did take a hit from DD and people his level. I can also give you scans of him speed blitzing them and actively trying to dodge their attacks. Doesn't that suggest that at the very least, him taking blows if more CIS/PIS issue rather than anything else?


As far as the DS example, I think this is where PIS/CIS comes and author "intention". Feats or not, most author's intention is that Superman is DS' equal.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Doesn't that suggest that at the very least, him taking blows if more CIS/PIS issue rather than anything else? But CIS and PIS aren't the same. The rules say "Events of CIS are not exempt from debates," which is obviously the opposite of PIS. If Superman trading blows with DD is CIS, it should count, right?

I think Leo's on the money with this. Imo, the "debate characters vs powersets" tension is what the CIS rule was trying to anticipate by addressing "any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively"

...but CIS is defined too narrowly, and failed to strike the right balance. It shouldn't just be about characters acting stupidly, but instead more plainly that we can't discount showings just because a character was behaving in character.

Meanwhile, it seems like PIS broadened to fill the gap. In one rule it's described as being about jobbing, and in another it more broadly captures every Flash story.

And then the CIP rule identified the gap but never seemed to stick, but was the most clear statement that characters fight in character, bottom line.

An actual "in character" rule would be one way to address that gap.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
says the guy who only debates powersets in every hulk thread

the way i see it, this is a BATTLE BOARD. as long as the feats posted are part of a characters average then anything should be usable. if i wanted to debate what a character would do IN A COMIC, i'd just read the damn comic.

Show me debating powerset in Hulk threads. I'll be waiting.

Originally posted by leonidas
soooo, i seem to have raised something of a sh!tstorm.

good. when something has been around for a long time, it sometimes bares re-examining that thing. forum rules, and the way we look at battles, is just one of them.
i'll preface this whole thread and idea with this--my goal wasn't to overturn any applecarts, my goal was simply to try generating new and different discussions. lazy and sloppy debates have become sort of common place. that...probably won't change, but if we can generate something new, look at old battles in new ways, doesn't seem like a bad thing.

ANYWAY... my proposal is simple--i'd like to add a rule into the official rules that clarifies just what it means for a character to be IN CHARACTER. TO ME that would mean we use typical comic portrayal as the determining factor. as a a forum that professes to be character-based in argument formation (as opposed to power set based) it seems only logical we use comic portrayals as the determining factor.

this would mean that REGARDLESS OF PERCEIVED PIS, we look at what a character would do in a battle based on what they do in a comic.

"but leo, we're ignoring PIS!!"

no. superman still doesn't kill. he just....doesn't see opponents as statues at the start of a fight. why? because he's never entered a battle viewing opponents as statues--or rather, he ALMOST never has. flash wouldn't fight every battle at greater than light speed--or even light speed. why? because he doesn't do so in comics. if you think he does, the onus is on YOU to prove it. ss isn't transmuting anyone, and likely starts most battles blasting someone--unless YOU can prove different.

i like the idea for a couple reasons--it brings characters like flash BACK into matches. he isn't ending matches in an attosecond because, well, he doesn't.

this ALSO doesn't preclude FULL CAPACITY--it simply mitigates its usage. full capacity may depend on who is fighting whom. it will also heavily mitigate high end feats AND low end ones making them essentially illegal in many cases, because they are not typical performances.

and of course, any thread can dictate its OWN rules. so if you don't like this, you can simply put FULL CAP in your thread and play by your own rules.

so, looking for thoughts. i'd love to see a rule added whether it takes exactly the form i'm talking about or some variation.

have at it. and keep it civil.

There's a difference between style/creativity and intellect.
Characters may or may not consider certain tactics because of style/creativity.

I can understand we shouldn't use a character's highest showings as the default level in a forum. But we shouldn't completely ignore abilities that characters have shown multiple times as them not having the abilities at all.

Speed is one of Superman's most basic abilities. He has used speed thousands of times (from evading attacks to blitzing to getting somewhere quickly). Everytime he used speed, his perceptions of things were much slower than to a normal human.

The spirit of forum fights is based off what we did as children (arguing who will beat who).

Characters act stupidly (far below their intelligence) for the sake of the plot. There is no story in a forum fight that forces a character to do this.

For everytime you show Superman getting hit by something very slow I can show you a time he used speed that contradicts it. Superman has so many speed feats it's ridiculous for you to say the things you said.

Anyway. The forum rules are for full capacity are

FIGHTING TO THE BEST OF ONE'S ABILITY AS SHOWN BEFORE.

Well, we have had mentions like morality on, morality off or bloodlusted. With the current rules we aren't really discussing just powersets, for me we do consider the likeness of an event happening under the control of an specific character before throwing it into the arena (I don't recall many Superman fans actually claiming he'd use a counter-frequence to destroy Hulk). Powersets would also allow characters to do things they have never managed or even being implied to do before. Surfer has never used a singularity inside someone's body but he has implied he could do it, Airwalker derives his Powers from the same source, so is he supposed to spam singularities too if we use powersets?

As long as everything is agreed upon I don't mind either kind of debating.

Originally posted by leonidas
except....he did EXACTLY that.






not really. it has the advantage of making threads against people with limited showings stupid. which....they are. but you're using some common sense in your approach, which is in short supply in most threads. AGAIN: it will depend on who is fighting whom. if superman is battling darkseid, he'd know what to do, and how powerful his attack should be. using full capacity though, darkseid will be a LITERAL statue for superman. it doesn't matter that ds is NEVER a statue when they meet. ever. unless you have proof of darkseid's speed, he is a statue. flash beats ds 100/100 because he speed steals. make sense? how is THAT any sort of reflection of the actual characters?

FULL CAPACITY attempts to force rl logic on....illogical and never-intended-to-be-used-this-way power sets. that is WHY we have claims of 'haxx' powers. because they were only ever intended to be used IN COMICS.

going back to the darkseid bit, common sense says darkseid would be able to react/attack/defend/defeat either superman or flash. but full capacity has superman hitting darkseid 100 000 times with planet busting force. common sense? of course not. a viable tactic in the forum? absolutely, based on the rules. speed steal ftw 100/100? by forum rule, viable, and brushed off as haxx. why accept that?

common sense fails in the established climate.

IN CHARACTER and FULL CAPACITY are IRRECONCILABLY opposed. how can FULL CAPACITY be IN CHARACTER, when IN CHARACTER, superman almost NEVER operates at FULL CAPACITY?

anyone?

Here's where you are wrong.
You say, "how is that a reflection of actual characters?"
But it is a reflection of actual characters. The showings you are referring to are not a reflection of actual characters.

In character has nothing to do with how a character performs in some comics. It has everything to do with how a character is supposed to perform (whether he does or not in a particular comic). You must apply common sense.

If we start arguing shit that makes no sense then it kills the actual debate.

Originally posted by Bentley
Well, we have had mentions like morality on, morality off or bloodlusted. With the current rules we aren't really discussing just powersets, for me we do consider the likeness of an event happening under the control of an specific character before throwing it into the arena (I don't recall many Superman fans actually claiming he'd use a counter-frequence to destroy Hulk). Powersets would also allow characters to do things they have never managed or even being implied to do before. Surfer has never used a singularity inside someone's body but he has implied he could do it, Airwalker derives his Powers from the same source, so is he supposed to spam singularities too if we use powersets?

As long as everything is agreed upon I don't mind either kind of debating.
There is a big difference of thinking about extravagant tactics vs basic powers that are always on.

It takes creativity to think of certain tactics as they are not common sense things to do.

But saying that a speedster is not allowed to use their speed in a forum fight is ludicrous.

Originally posted by leonidas
the last point is already defined in the rules:



of course with flash that could be very different--onus on the debater to prove.

intelligence? not sure i understand. imo, intelligence plays a limited role in a forum fight--at least it may be dependent on the environment. one might say bats can read opponents quicker--prove it--and use...whatever tactic he wants. he'd certainly face wh with a different mindset than superman might. i don't see why intelligence would be portrayed any differently.... /shrug only so many ways in a forum fight to outthink an opponent.

always comes down to speed, eh? how often in a comic do you think flash or superman ACTUALLY, and quantitatively fight at light speed? superman? almost never. he is restricted by environment. you might say--a forum has no environment. so, how often does he fight at lightspeed in space?

does this mean they still can't out-speed 99% of opponents? clearly not. but the while attosecond stuff? it's such a minute part of his achievements, that i don't see why THAT should be the go-to. that should be the last resort. maybe we should go back to giving wins out of 10. as battles progress, tactics would certainly change. again, let the books be the guides.

cis, like pis, remains unchanged--within the parameters of the comics.

So Batman can use whatever tactic he wants...... Because....What,he's more intelligent? There are only so many ways in a forum fight to outthink an opponent?

These two powers , superspeed and intelligence, are linked. Hence my question.

CIS is there for characters that are genuinely that dumb. That doesn't mean that someone with superspeed would willingly get hit. Even animals and kids would flinch and attempt to move out of the way of you hitting them. Fruit flies have incredible reaction speeds:
https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/the-creature-with-the-quickest-reactions-might-surprise-you-da3752e279

And will move out of the way of you hitting them.

You literally are saying Superman and Flash etc are dumber than fruit flies, lol.

In short, what some call CIS, I say it's actually PIS for superspeed characters.

To slow it down to humans, people are effectively arguing in my Batman vs Boulderine situation, he keeps spamming Batarangs. Even though they don't work.

Flash keeps spamming.... Ineffective punches. Even though they don't work.

Aha! You scream. That's EXACTLY how comics show him fighting!

So a guy who can solve 36 crossword puzzles a minute, solves crimes for fun AND for work.....Doesn't realize he's being ineffective?

I mean, it doesn't even take that much to outspeed someone, a a fruit fly shows. And Flash is far faster than a fruit fly.....I don't think many of you realise just how easy it is to outspeed things. I'm not talking about 'outspeeding Death levels of speed.

Two humans can do it:

http://i.imgur.com/33SaQEY.gif

And the gap between Flash and other characters is far far far wider than two humans.

Not saying Tyson never got tagged , of course he did. But he's no Flash, and he's still more than capable of avoiding hits.

Originally posted by h1a8
There is a big difference of thinking about extravagant tactics vs basic powers that are always on.

It takes creativity to think of certain tactics as they are not common sense things to do.

But saying that a speedster is not allowed to use their speed in a forum fight is ludicrous. Imagine h1 bringing common sense into this, lol.

But credit where it's due

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So Batman can use whatever tactic he wants...... Because....What,he's more intelligent? There are only so many ways in a forum fight to outthink an opponent?

These two powers , superspeed and intelligence, are linked. Hence my question.

CIS is there for characters that are genuinely that dumb. That doesn't mean that someone with superspeed would willingly get hit. Even animals and kids would flinch and attempt to move out of the way of you hitting them. Fruit flies have incredible reaction speeds:
https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/the-creature-with-the-quickest-reactions-might-surprise-you-da3752e279

And will move out of the way of you hitting them.

You literally are saying Superman and Flash etc are dumber than fruit flies, lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In short, what some call CIS, I say it's actually PIS for superspeed characters.

To slow it down to humans, people are effectively arguing in my Batman vs Boulderine situation, he keeps spamming Batarangs. Even though they don't work.

Flash keeps spamming.... Ineffective punches. Even though they don't work.

Aha! You scream. That's EXACTLY how comics show him fighting!

So a guy who can solve 36 crossword puzzles a minute, solves crimes for fun AND for work.....Doesn't realize he's being ineffective?

I mean, it doesn't even take that much to outspeed someone, a a fruit fly shows. And Flash is far faster than a fruit fly.....I don't think many of you realise just how easy it is to outspeed things. I'm not talking about 'outspeeding Death levels of speed.

Two humans can do it:

http://i.imgur.com/33SaQEY.gif

And the gap between Flash and other characters is far far far wider than two humans.

Not saying Tyson never got tagged , of course he did. But he's no Flash, and he's still more than capable of avoiding hits.

Wow y'all got meta af since I last really engaged. Good post Leo! (RIP KMC GL Corps.)

Anyway as someone mentioned earlier, back in the day people would often set these kinds of conditions for their fight (bloodlusted, morality off, etc.)

This discussion, from my view, seems mostly to do with speedsters, as if you give that particular power a 2nd thought, you realize how central it is to any fight or any storyline for that matter. If you can do everything in the blink of an eye, who can stop you from doing anything? What's the reason Flash doesn't just exist in a state of perpetual light speed? What's the consequence for that?... no really I'm asking

Originally posted by leonidas
soooo, i seem to have raised something of a sh!tstorm.

good. when something has been around for a long time, it sometimes bares re-examining that thing. forum rules, and the way we look at battles, is just one of them.
i'll preface this whole thread and idea with this--my goal wasn't to overturn any applecarts, my goal was simply to try generating new and different discussions. lazy and sloppy debates have become sort of common place. that...probably won't change, but if we can generate something new, look at old battles in new ways, doesn't seem like a bad thing.

ANYWAY... my proposal is simple--i'd like to add a rule into the official rules that clarifies just what it means for a character to be IN CHARACTER. TO ME that would mean we use typical comic portrayal as the determining factor. as a a forum that professes to be character-based in argument formation (as opposed to power set based) it seems only logical we use comic portrayals as the determining factor.

this would mean that REGARDLESS OF PERCEIVED PIS, we look at what a character would do in a battle based on what they do in a comic.

"but leo, we're ignoring PIS!!"

no. superman still doesn't kill. he just....doesn't see opponents as statues at the start of a fight. why? because he's never entered a battle viewing opponents as statues--or rather, he ALMOST never has. flash wouldn't fight every battle at greater than light speed--or even light speed. why? because he doesn't do so in comics. if you think he does, the onus is on YOU to prove it. ss isn't transmuting anyone, and likely starts most battles blasting someone--unless YOU can prove different.

i like the idea for a couple reasons--it brings characters like flash BACK into matches. he isn't ending matches in an attosecond because, well, he doesn't.

this ALSO doesn't preclude FULL CAPACITY--it simply mitigates its usage. full capacity may depend on who is fighting whom. it will also heavily mitigate high end feats AND low end ones making them essentially illegal in many cases, because they are not typical performances.

and of course, any thread can dictate its OWN rules. so if you don't like this, you can simply put FULL CAP in your thread and play by your own rules.

so, looking for thoughts. i'd love to see a rule added whether it takes exactly the form i'm talking about or some variation.

have at it. and keep it civil.

I already did. I thought you ****s read the rules.

Full capacity and personality were never meant to remotely seem mutually exclusive. I thought I was clear about that.

If I have to write something new, then so be it I guess.

My take on what you wrote, Pr, was that many of the times Superman takes punches was plot driven. Which we ignore.

He doesn't want to be bored. Feel alienated. Is feeling confident he can take the punch. Whatever.

Thing is,in a forum match, we assume he's here to fight. He's not tearing heads off and lobotomizing people, but neither is he going to take a punch. Because he's not here to talk someone down, or any of the 'in character' things he does.

Match starts, he's here to fight, he's here to win.

I get what you're saying. I just disagree, but only in certain circumstances.

Leo says -correctly- that plot armour should be ignored.

Surely it works both ways? Streets don't get turned into a pink mist when hit by meta/herald/trans tiers, and slower characters don't get humiliated by faster characters.

I want EVERYONE to watch this video:

cbLqST0AvnI

Watch the whole thing. The entire fight.

What, 30mins is too long? Too slow for you guys?

That's how superspeed characters see things. Except that was only at 1/2 speed. We're not saying Flash had to move at Death racing speeds.

A lot of you have been what I call poisoned by anime. This isn't the Chuunin exams, where Rock Lee takes his weights off, or Guy opens his 6th gate. Neither is it DBZ, where you need to power up to the next level.

You guys are seeing things like *Character A hits B. B wipes blood off his lip* 'Good hit,my man....now it's my turn!!!!' and applying it here.

But that's all plot driven.

Fast characters getting hit is part of the media really. We aren't Reading comics so they tell us Damage is a strong character, they need to show it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You guys are seeing things like *Character A hits B. B wipes blood off his lip* 'Good hit,my man....now it's my turn!!!!' and applying it here.

Anyone doing that should stop.

That's essentially what the Leo, Carver and Bluewaterrider Superman argument is.

Ding,match starts.

Superman.....puffs his chest out, because in a comic called the Death of Superman, that's how he acted. He's feeling confident. Bored and wants a challenge. Wants to experience the human condition of being beaten to death. Whatever.

Gets tagged.

Ramps up his speed.

Gets tagged again....The number of times is dependent on how much you want to lowball Superman.

Ramps up again until he either loses the match or out speeds the opposition....

Edit: I mean, we have mages and GLs with autoshields that fire up in the event their opponent attacks....But if ITS YOUR OWN SPEED, even as one sees a fist headed for one's face, one does.....Nothing?

Originally posted by -Pr-
If I have to write something new, then so be it I guess. Probably does need to be clarified a little better in the rules(one way or the other) just to avoid confusion in the future.

That's why I didn't mind leo making this thread. I was legitimately curious what everyone's thought process was here.

Originally posted by Galan007
Probably does need to be clarified a little better in the rules(one way or the other) just to avoid confusion in the future.

That's why I didn't mind leo making this thread. I was legitimately curious what everyone's thought process was here.

Doesn't matter what my thought process is, by the time I've formulated a rebuttal the thread has jumped ten pages on .

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In short, what some call CIS, I say it's actually PIS for superspeed characters.

To slow it down to humans, people are effectively arguing in my Batman vs Boulderine situation, he keeps spamming Batarangs. Even though they don't work.

Flash keeps spamming.... Ineffective punches. Even though they don't work.

Aha! You scream. That's EXACTLY how comics show him fighting!

So a guy who can solve 36 crossword puzzles a minute, solves crimes for fun AND for work.....Doesn't realize he's being ineffective?

I mean, it doesn't even take that much to outspeed someone, a a fruit fly shows. And Flash is far faster than a fruit fly.....I don't think many of you realise just how easy it is to outspeed things. I'm not talking about 'outspeeding Death levels of speed.

Two humans can do it:

http://i.imgur.com/33SaQEY.gif

And the gap between Flash and other characters is far far far wider than two humans.

Not saying Tyson never got tagged , of course he did. But he's no Flash, and he's still more than capable of avoiding hits.

you're stuck in a circular and faulty premise where you are consistently using rl logic, comparing comic characters to rl characters, and referring to comic characters as dumb BECAUSE REAL LIVING people wouldn't do things the same way.

they are NOT rl people. we constantly admonish people for comparing rl to comics, but you're doing that exact thing. divorce them--entirely--from rl. use what we see in comics AS the foundation for their actions.

you also seem to be focusing mostly on speed. but-again--no one is saying speed can't or won't be used. who said flash is going to stand there and get hit? will he dodge the first blow from daredevil at lightspeed? hell no. and it's idiotic for anyone who knows the character to suggest it. but stuff like that happens--all the time. that is h1's bread and butter--it's why superman beats classic odin 100/100 regardless of how idiotic that is. it's why people cringe and drop out of threads when someone suggests taking characters like flash and zoom and extrapolating based on their POWER SETS. suddenly they are "broken". lol no they aren't they are broken because we are forcing rl logic on them and their powers. which is crazy because that is NEVER EVER how they were intended to be viewed. if we STAY in comics, ignore rl and its implications, we ALL have the same foundation and characters are TRULY made characters and used the way they were intended.

in a comic book setting, characters aren't dumb even though they do what they do. they do what they do because it is an illogical medium, inherently. the idea of "haxx" ONLY comes up BECAUSE we try and force rl logic onto these powers. we can, and imo should, mitigate these things.

there are already SEVERAL forums that look at battles the way h1 wants to look at them. why be the same, when we profess to be character-based? and if we ARE character-based, then we should be FULLY character-based. and if we aren't, then we should just declare ourselves no different from cbr or comicvine or reddit or....

many of the problems stem from the fact that people want us to be BOTH. but we can't. again:

But you're forcing a battle board mentality onto comics. Writers don't care. They don't care about the implications of making Wally outrun Death, for example. But the fact remains, he's done it.

As you say, plot armour exists. I am saying it exists for the opponents of speedsters. Street tiers don't explode into pink mist when hit by trans/HHs, slower characters are able to tag faster opponents.

It's all PIS.

If you want them to not be broken, it's simple. Have it as part of your OP. ‘Speed equalised’. If that stip is not present, then one character is faster, and thus, won't get touched.

Edit: you say to use comic examples as the foundation. OK.

https://i.postimg.cc/6pBcPxq0/00-Pufv-H-d.jpg

A scion of one of the science houses, of one of the most advanced civilisations in the DCU, who practices and applies his reasoning abilities on a daily basis.....Will decide to, in a fight where he's trying to win, to use his speed.

Edit edit: Leo, your argument is fast devolving into Carver's ' Lanterns are weak against bricks' argument.

In the majority of their appearances, a brick can break the shields and constructs of a Lantern. Are you of that opinion too?

Dont know why people are saying Superman speed is always active. Here he is obviously activating it to keep up with Flash...

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/68345/1969787-1725091_superman709_016.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
Dont know why people are saying Superman speed is always active. Here he is obviously activating it to keep up with Flash...

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/68345/1969787-1725091_superman709_016.jpg

To keep up with Flash, sure.

Not against others. Flash is just a different tier. We all know this.

Are you saying he enters a thread at.....What, Lois Lane level speed? Batman? Aquaman?

I like how you're using old showings now

edit.

as i've said--repeatedly--SPEED CAN STILL BE USED! you sound like i'm trying to outlaw speed. i'm saying use it as it is used IN COMICS instead of IRL. i'm not forcing a battle board mentality onto comics... i'm doing the EXACT opposite--trying to use comics as a foundation for a battle board.

pis exists in comics. it would still exist in the forum. speed still exists in comics. speed would still exist in the forum. every would still be in play--we could just drop the silly notion of using powers as they would be used by living people in the real world. it only leads to problems.

and btw--i'm not saying one debating method is inherently better than the other. at all. i'd fine fine debating power sets. i'd be fine debating in a more character-based manner. we have a mix of both here, all the time. throw in the constant high and lowballing that takes place in virtually ever thread and it's no wonder threads are constantly derailed or closed or simply become circular in their content.

again, i think if we profess to be character-based, we should be. otherwise we're no different from anyone else. and that'd be fine with me too. just seems we have enough of those types of sites. be nice to see some different arguments from the same tired old ones we see all the time.

Originally posted by carver9
Dont know why people are saying Superman speed is always active. Here he is obviously activating it to keep up with Flash...

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/68345/1969787-1725091_superman709_016.jpg

Here you go Carver. Enjoy!!

https://i.postimg.cc/XJYT6yvs/6722063-2771820425-RCO00.jpg

If applying "the real life logic!" of a 7 year old thinking "it's bad to get hit, so I won't, using my basic ability of speed" is a "no-no" then I might as well call it a day on this forum.

That is, literally, the most basic logic one can use.

So, in short, we shouldn't use any kind of logic.

Meanwhile, right next door to this thread:
Originally posted by leonidas
i'm still unsure how this would go down. tough to see nate winning without going fully exotic. he could tk hulk's mind--literally disassemble it via tk, then use his tk to prevent him healing. he could hold that long enough to get a win a guess. he should be able to use his tk control to fully interrupt any of hulk's bodily functions--heart, lungs, whatever, but once tk was released....

i don't see tp working, nor energy release. time stop would have been an option, but hulk....

he could left him from the ground and hold him--but that wouldn't last. nate's tk vs hulk strength wouldn't end well for nate.

---

I will wait for the mods to "define it" better.

But if I'm forced to treat characters just Superman/Flash as dumber than a box of rocks, because we can't use the basic "logic", well, yeah.

Did that discredit my scan?

Originally posted by carver9
Did that discredit my scan?

It says how he's always alone in his speed bubble. And it's lonely.

Your scan simply says he has to catch up to....The fastest guy in DC, lol.

Iow, your scan doesn't say what you think it says.

If my car has to go up a gear to match a Ferrari in a race....Does it mean your 1950s milk cart can match me? No. Matching a Ferrari in no way means ANYTHING for how my car performs against others.

@phil--not sure what the quote from the nate thread is supposed to show...

i specifically said i don't think we could win UNLESS he went exotic.

and you keep forcing rl logic--even rudimentary logic. not sure why.
if we want to use logic, then by all means, let's ALL do that. but then it SHOULD follow that we FOLLOW that logic to its end. ergo, we have h1 forms of debate--superman and flash should be off the lists entirely because they are skyfathers, at least. we can't just use logic when it's comfortable. /shrug

again.....speed CAN be used. as it is in comics. and this would impact a lot more than just flash/superman. it would impact the way several characters are debated.

again, not saying one way is better. just that we should pick one and all be on the same page. the mishmash isn't working.

btw--hilarious bedfellows here--you have h1 in your corner and i have blue and carv. sigils broken indeed...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It says how he's always alone in his speed bubble. And it's lonely.

Your scan simply says he has to catch up to....The fastest guy in DC, lol.

Iow, your scan doesn't say what you think it says.

If my car has to go up a gear to match a Ferrari in a race....Does it mean your 1950s milk cart can match me? No. Matching a Ferrari in no way means ANYTHING for how my car performs against others.

Your first comment doesnt taken away from him not activating his ability.

If his speed was always active, lol, he wouldn't have to speed it up to catch up. It was natural for Flash during that same scene. Unless you're saying his top speed isnt always active (he was able to match Flash during that scene which means the speed was there, he just needed to activate it to get there).

Originally posted by leonidas
and you keep forcing rl logic--even rudimentary logic. Yeah, I like to think logically on how a super-genius kryptonian would act.

And I just have him....defend himself, with a basic ability.

And you think that's too much real life logic.

......
Originally posted by leonidas
if we want to use logic, then by all means, let's ALL do that. but then it SHOULD follow that we FOLLOW that logic to its end. ergo, we have h1 forms of debate--superman and flash should be off the lists entirely because they are skyfathers, at least. we can't just use logic when it's comfortable. /shrug How can you look at what H1 is arguing, and what me and Darksaint are arguing, and think it's the same thing?

Here, take this:
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/30/Appeal-to-Extremes


"Superman will use a 7 years old logic, and dodge"

"OMG SUPERMAN BEATS SKYFATHERS"

Originally posted by leonidas
@phil--not sure what the quote from the nate thread is supposed to show...

i specifically said i don't think we could win UNLESS he went exotic. You're arguing in a thread that Superman won't use speed and protect himself. Because he feels alienated. Or bored. Or sad.

In another thread, you say it's possible that Nate can deconstruct Hulk's brain continuously for a forum win.

You don't see the difference?

Originally posted by leonidas
@phil--not sure what the quote from the nate thread is supposed to show...

i specifically said i don't think we could win UNLESS he went exotic.

and you keep forcing rl logic--even rudimentary logic. not sure why.
if we want to use logic, then by all means, let's ALL do that. but then it SHOULD follow that we FOLLOW that logic to its end. ergo, we have h1 forms of debate--superman and flash should be off the lists entirely because they are skyfathers, at least. we can't just use logic when it's comfortable. /shrug

again.....speed CAN be used. as it is in comics. and this would impact a lot more than just flash/superman. it would impact the way several characters are debated.

again, not saying one way is better. just that we should pick one and all be on the same page. the mishmash isn't working.

btw--hilarious bedfellows here--you have h1 in your corner and i have blue and carv. sigils broken indeed...

Then it's simple.

In threads involving characters with lopsided speed abilities, equalise them. When they're not, then it's not.

On panel, in comics, streets can hang with heralds. Damage goes from stalemating Superman in strength, to being unable to KO Batman,lol.

Follow it to the end.

Originally posted by carver9
Your first comment doesnt taken away from him not activating his ability.

If his speed was always active, lol, he wouldn't have to speed it up to catch up. It was natural for Flash during that same scene. Unless you're saying his top speed isnt always active (he was able to match Flash during that scene which means the speed was there, he just needed to activate it to get there).

Does your car only have two speeds, walking speed and it's top speed?

@Saint


Originally posted by leonidas
and you keep forcing rl logic--even rudimentary logic. not sure why.

Logic is forbidden.

The medium for in char and full cap?
Hard to say.
Funny thing, Kingdom Gog was a marriage of these two thing unto himself. He used ridic ftl like speed from time to time like when he dealt with Flash... However he wasn't going around speedblitzing the heroes ftl..

Putting a heavy emphasis on rl physics and injecting that emphasis on comic characters is a path to shietstorm. There has to be a medium I would think.

Take for example anyone speaking while at super speed mode a la regular peeps are frozen... How is that even possible in rl? I mean sound travelling in that level of speed? If it isn't, can we now call those speed showings PIS(emphasis on irl terms speaking)? I know flash uses sf etc to alleviate effects of rl science, but then how does his mass grow as he approaches light for example? This is gonna be applicable on a lot of feats if that's the case and not only about speed... Believe me....

If there is some level of "suspension of disbelief" when it comes to feats, shouldn't we extend that too in this setting? There's just Sooo much to consider.

Originally posted by carver9
If his speed was always active He always perceives events that take place in small increments of time and reacts to them, while being in normal mode, and being unaware that they're about to happen in order to "activate" it.

Like here, with a really fast visual stimuli:
https://i.imgur.com/zRW23TE.jpg

Or here, for a really fast audio stimuli :
https://i.imgur.com/gkoNmEn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/N4tXgoO.jpg

For the Flash scene, the author clearly explained that he perceives the events all the time, but he can choose to focus them or not (in this case, a gunshot or Barry Allen going at top-speeds were something he would not want to ignore)

http://i.imgur.com/d3mWikB.png

There's countless examples.

It's no different than any other speedster, who interacts with people normally, but can perceive and react to microscale events.

Stop talking.

There's also the fact that Superman went from 'normal' perception mode, to high-end/Flash-level perception mode, instantly(*clap on*), because there was simply a need for increased speed in that situation... And this was the same Flash who bragged about being able to perceive/react on an attosecond-by-attosecond basis a few pages later.

IOW, that scan doesn't help carver's case at all. Actually hurts it quite a bit.

Originally posted by Galan007
Probably does need to be clarified a little better in the rules(one way or the other) just to avoid confusion in the future.

That's why I didn't mind leo making this thread. I was legitimately curious what everyone's thought process was here.

TBH, while I don't mind the idea of writing something with more clarity, I'm kinda wondering what I should write, as at least every post in this thread has been a little bit wrong in the interpretation of what I honestly thought was a pretty clear rule.

That said, if the majority wants things a certain way, I wouldn't be opposed to working something out, even if I disagree with it personally.

I'm open to working it out in PMs if you want. Or if you want to open it up to people, a thread.

The question, is whether people are arguing in good faith.

No rule can fix intentional misreading/internet lawyering.

Originally posted by cdtm
The question, is whether people are arguing in good faith.

No rule can fix intentional misreading/internet lawyering. You'd find a very small percentage if any, that are arguing in good faith.

In short:

When a character who's less durable tanks attacks better than a character who's more durable, that's PIS:

Wonder Woman against Batman:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/99065/4146536-batman+(2011-)+035-008.jpg

Same attack, Wonder Woman against Shaggy Man:
https://imgur.com/a/xGm3S

OMG, DS.....that's clearly PIS.

When a slower character is shown to be faster/as fast as a faster character...

Well, shucks, that's just how comics work, mate. Suspension of belief.

I mean, sure, we have SOME suspension. There is no way Batman does half/90% of the things he does. There is no way a random mutation in your DNA gives you the ability to make it rain/snow/hail. I get it.

But that is a far cry from 'Character A, despite being faster, in character gets tagged by Character B who is nowhere near in speed.'

Originally posted by cdtm
The question, is whether people are arguing in good faith.

No rule can fix intentional misreading/internet lawyering.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
You'd find a very small percentage if any, that are arguing in good faith.

Whether they are or not, I want the rules to be clear. And I want this board not to be full of "powerset vs powerset" shite.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In short:

When a character who's less durable tanks attacks better than a character who's more durable, that's PIS:

Wonder Woman against Batman:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/99065/4146536-batman+(2011-)+035-008.jpg

Same attack, Wonder Woman against Shaggy Man:
https://imgur.com/a/xGm3S

OMG, DS.....that's clearly PIS.

When a slower character is shown to be faster/as fast as a faster character...

Well, shucks, that's just how comics work, mate. Suspension of belief.

I mean, sure, we have SOME suspension. There is no way Batman does half/90% of the things he does. There is no way a random mutation in your DNA gives you the ability to make it rain/snow/hail. I get it.

But that is a far cry from 'Character A, despite being faster, in character gets tagged by Character B who is nowhere near in speed.'

This is why you look at the majority, not the minority. If Batman is consistently tanking Wonder Woman level punches, then an argument can not be made against him. A couple or showing doesnt tane president over a character entire history. This is what makes KMC different than Comicvine. When you start to debate primarily off of powerset,, it ruins the entire experience of debating.

Originally posted by carver9
This is why you look at the majority, not the minority. If Batman is consistently tanking Wonder Woman level punches, then an argument can not be made against him. A couple or showing doesnt tane president over a character entire history. This is what makes KMC different than Comicvine. When you start to debate primarily off of powerset,, it ruins the entire experience of debating.

Batman consistently fights Wonder Woman. On every fight they've had in n52, he's done well.

Every street does consistently well against Heralds, meta's and trans level beings. Marvel and DC.

Do we say ah, heralds are weak against streets? That's what comics consistently show. No street worth their salt gets turned into a pink mist by heralds.

None.

Plot armour? Sure. We ignore them. Agree with that.

But slow characters also get plot armour against fast characters. And we.....Say that's comics.

@Dark

So getting beat up is doing well. You probably need to switch that to "he survives".

Which streets does well against Heralds? Key word is consistently. We are not talking about avoiding, getting beat up, etc... you said they do well.

Or the fast character just doesnt fight anywhere close to the way you think they combat. It's just that simple.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Whether they are or not, I want the rules to be clear. And I want this board not to be full of "powerset vs powerset" shite.

NO ONE IS SAYING THAT.

All we are saying is that Superman/Flash....don't want to get punched in the face, and will do their utmost to...not be. Something every fighter/normie/child/dog/fruit fly does.

We are NOT saying 'Full Capacity' means the bell rings and Superman sings people out of existence, or Flash...actually, you know what?

Flash/Superman has dodged hits more times than Flash has IMP'd. No one would begrudge an IMP, right? Or is that also off the table now?

People are making a massive leap from 'Superman and Flash will use one of their basic (in Flash's case, ONLY) powers', to 'OMG this means Surfer will open black holes whilst going intangible whilst his board hits you in the back of the head at multiples of c, whilst at the same time scanning you for your specific weakness and emitting that exact radiation!!!!'

Flash and Barry were pretty much destroying the universe racing around the planet but Zoom who is technically faster than Flash someone gets tagged by Batman

Yup... dark is really misrepresting how speedsters fight

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
NO ONE IS SAYING THAT.

All we are saying is that Superman/Flash....don't want to get punched in the face, and will do their utmost to...not be. Something every fighter/normie/child/dog/fruit fly does.

We are NOT saying 'Full Capacity' means the bell rings and Superman sings people out of existence, or Flash...actually, you know what?

Flash/Superman has dodged hits more times than Flash has IMP'd. No one would begrudge an IMP, right? Or is that also off the table now?

People are making a massive leap from 'Superman and Flash will use one of their basic (in Flash's case, ONLY) powers', to 'OMG this means Surfer will open black holes whilst going intangible whilst his board hits you in the back of the head at multiples of c, whilst at the same time scanning you for your specific weakness and emitting that exact radiation!!!!'

I'm not going to get in to the rest of your post no matter how much I might disagree with parts of it, but that first line? People are doing that, and have been doing that shit for a while in that thread and other threads. And I was speaking pretty damn generally to boot.

Originally posted by carver9
@Dark

So getting beat up is doing well. You probably need to switch that to "he survives".

Which streets does well against Heralds? Key word is consistently. We are not talking about avoiding, getting beat up, etc... you said they do well.

Or the fast character just doesnt fight anywhere close to the way you think they combat. It's just that simple.

I say they don't get turned into pink mist. That's an amazing showing, considering who they are facing. The gap between a human and a herald who hits harder than Doomsday, AND who overloads a guy who wasn't overloaded by the Speed Force/Hal Jordan, is astronomical.

These are guys who lift mountains with their pinkie. Just breathing on them too hard would break a street, lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In short:

When a character who's less durable tanks attacks better than a character who's more durable, that's PIS:

Wonder Woman against Batman:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/99065/4146536-batman+(2011-)+035-008.jpg

Same attack, Wonder Woman against Shaggy Man:
https://imgur.com/a/xGm3S

OMG, DS.....that's clearly PIS.

When a slower character is shown to be faster/as fast as a faster character...

Well, shucks, that's just how comics work, mate. Suspension of belief.
That's not the same attack btw. :P
Just sayin...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

I mean, sure, we have SOME suspension. There is no way Batman does half/90% of the things he does. There is no way a random mutation in your DNA gives you the ability to make it rain/snow/hail. I get it.

But that is a far cry from 'Character A, despite being faster, in character gets tagged by Character B who is nowhere near in speed.'
Yep. That's why in Supes vs Weap H cage match, i had Supes taking it. Also I don't think Clay has had run ins with actual speedsters.

I'd really hope the mods give a detailed verdict on this.

Nobody here is debating powerset vs poweset. Anybody who's read the discussion know it.

We're talking about if we're allowed to use basic, rudimentary logic of "Superman don't want to get hit. He will use super speed not to".

If we can't use basic, 'rudimentary' logic like this:


I'd really like to know. And, since we can't use real life logic at all, we should do away with :
- the PIS rule, too, since that's something we impose on a fictional medium, using real life logic.
- the "full potential" part, since it doesn't make sense anymore, as it's argued that a guy with super speed won't defend himself from slow attacks because he's "alienated" or "bored" or whatevs. 'Full potential' is hilarious at this point. It's literally the worst potential.

I will keep away from this, as I've said all there needs to be said, and await that.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm not going to get in to the rest of your post no matter how much I might disagree with parts of it, but that first line? People are doing that, and have been doing that shit for a while in that thread and other threads. And I was speaking pretty damn generally to boot.

Well we've already had a mod rule on it.

Originally posted by Galan007
We could certainly better-define/clarify what 'in character' actually means in the forum rules(I'd be happy to do so), but imo, there has to be a point where simple logic/reason comes into play -- especially for a character as intelligent and battle-savvy as Superman.

Speed is among the most rudimentary abilities in a character's arsenal, and Superman has a well-documented history of superspeed usage. Therefore, once Superman figured out whether or not WH's claws pose a legitimate threat to him(which could be deduced via a quick molecular scan, even IF he goes into this battle without any knowledge of WH's abilities), then logic dictates that Supes would at least use *enough* speed to dodge WH's attacks in order to avoid getting killed. I mean, even if we don't want to allow a character to use the full breadth of their superspeed offensively in a forum battle, then surely they should be able to use just enough of that speed defensively to protect themselves, no? I'm sure everyone can agree that most characters are intended to go into a forum battle with the basic will to live, right?

IOW, if character A can dodge bullets, and character B points a gun at them and pulls the trigger, would we not assume that character A will dodge the bullets in a forum battle if they have done so in the past? Again, that much just comes down to instinctual self-preservation, imo. /shrug

Galan even quoted the Full Capacity rule.

Originally posted by Galan007
As outlined in the forum rules:


Superman has well-documented superspeed at his disposal, therefore he would be able to use it in a forum setting unless otherwise specified in the OP(just like the Flash example cited in the above rule.)

So yeah. I don't think we needed a whole thread lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well we've already had a mod rule on it.

I helped write the thing, and yet...

....and yet. tbf though pr, there isn't an actual definition of IN CHARACTER. the rules come close though with this bit, and the elaborated on explanation:



this is really close to what i've been trying to get at. at their hearts, they are really the same. the only thing i would like clarified is that IN CHARACTER (character overall) is based ON COMICS. not by our rl logic.

yet again.....logic can still play a part in this. as can super speed, and....everything else. but wtf would superman see everyone as a statue when it has literally never happened in a book? that doesn't mean he can't up that ability, or START at it if he is fighting an evil guardian of the universe.

but his course of action should be dictated by what he does in comics. i....truly don't see the issue with it.

or go to power set debates.

still haven't had anyone answer this:

Originally posted by -Pr-
TBH, while I don't mind the idea of writing something with more clarity, I'm kinda wondering what I should write, as at least every post in this thread has been a little bit wrong in the interpretation of what I honestly thought was a pretty clear rule.

That said, if the majority wants things a certain way, I wouldn't be opposed to working something out, even if I disagree with it personally.

I'm open to working it out in PMs if you want. Or if you want to open it up to people, a thread. We can discuss it here or via PM. Either way.

I think the whole 'in character' clause does need to be blatantly defined in the rules just to eliminate confusion like this in the future. As we've seen here, people are interpreting the rules much differently it seems...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well we've already had a mod rule on it. Tbf, that was just my personal take on how speed should be applied in versus threads as a bare-bones minimum(because it makes perfect sense to me.) Can't say it was a formal 'ruling', though.

Here's my current thoughts on the matter:

I don't believe Superman super rapes every character within nanoseconds of looking into their eyes. That's just not in character for him.

However, to counter his speed, you actually need feats from characters to contend with it. You need to present a reasonable case based on your comic characters to explain why it's unlikely. You can't just handwave it away because Superman doesn't use it all the time, you need a counter. And you know, he still has his speed even in character, so what difference does it make it he rapes him in 0.2 Carvoseconds or after Superman starts losing, if he can still whip it out at anytime? You need to be able to counter that throughout, if you can't then you can't. That is a concession if you can make zero case for your actual character.

Yes comics are important, but that goes for both sides. Superman might not rape characters off the hop, but if your character has done literally nothing to even deal with a speedy character, let alone a lightspeeder, then you're ****ed. He still has speed, it doesn't matter when he does it.

This differs however when weapons and carvers are introduced. Your intent may be to have them brawl in a small box, but it can't be a brawl, and it will never be a brawl because Superman is not retarded. He can be killed instantly by one attack and he can SUPERSEE that ****ing weapon. Whereas with a fist, Superman might be inclined to test the waters, and likely would judging by comics. For example I don't think that in a normal forum fight that Superman wouldn't get hit by Hulk if it were entirely up to me, but I also don't believe that he wouldn't also use his speed to land a ****load of shots and piledrive the shit out of him. Think a good Justice League Unlimited fight from the cartoon, that's my preferred method of visualizing fights.
Weapon H however has full sized swords, and Superman knows and can see this. Superman would not allow him to touch him with his full speed enabled. Weapon H has no feats to counter that idea, ergo, mega fukt.

-------

And a little off topic, but I think once you reach lightspeed or somewhere around there all these femtosecond/nanosecond/carvosecond feats just seem to be writers not understanding the consequences of these words. The only people who should really outspeed and blitz "I was going 100048 times the speed of light" boys is Flash. But that's largely my own feeling based on me perceiving it as just oneupsmanship and writers doing zero research. I think it has a place in the forum, just not in every thread as a casual "of course" answer. Say for example attosecond being used to counter a nanosecond fella. Do we really think it reasonable attosecond lad could make nanosecond boy appear as a complete statue and that's how every fight should be intended?
I'd say it boils down to a raw power off in that case but that's just my opinion. Superman still wins that more often than not, but at least it gives him an opponent if he fought say Gladiator or someone.

Something something something, Pope Carver IX will usher in a new age.

I agree for the most part.

I'll use Superman as the lead example here because he's who got this ball rolling in the first place, but the same logic can apply to any speedsters really... My personal opinion is that if you don't want Superman having the potential to hyper-blitz his opponent in a thread, just specify such in the OP, and/or equalize their speeds initially. Problem solved.

If speed is allowed, however, I think Superman is intelligent/rational enough to at least use his speed defensively, in order to avoid getting killed by his opponent IF he believes them to be a legitimate threat. For example, put Supes against Lex with a Kryptonite knife, and I think we can all agree that Superman isn't just going to stand there and allow Lex to stab him with said knife. He's going to dodge the slashes with an *adequate* amount of speed for that particular situation/threat, and then neutralize the threat with that same *adequate* amount of speed. Why? Because he knows the knife is a potential danger to him and he doesn't want to die.

Does that mean he's going to instantly blitz every opponent within the first attosecond of the battle and melt their faces off with HV? No. That wouldn't be a reasonable standard to put him at on average. But as I said, there has to be a point where simple logic/reason factors into how these characters would fight in a forum battle. Again, we can probably all agree that the characters are assumed to go into these battles with the basic will to live, right?

Just MO.

Cant wait to use forum Surfer.

Stop being an idiot, Carver. No one is trying to peddle the bullshit you're spewing right now.

Y'all ignored my boy Quick Freeze. Shame on everyone.

Also, hey everyone. Sorry Leo, I don't have anything to add here, but I appreciated the chat about it. Best that the discussion is for those who are still active anyway.

Digi and Paola make an appearance the same day? Lol what the hell is going on? At this rate Tron will pop in tomorrow.

Originally posted by Galan007
Digi and Paola make an appearance the same day? Lol what the hell is going on? At this rate Tron will pop in tomorrow.

Lol, Paola too?!

We're the heralds of Raz's return. I'm here to tell you that he'll be here to destroy KMC and absorb its essence into his being in approximately 25 years. Prepare yourselves.

Oh wow, Raz came back in Sept and posted a bit. Look how much I miss when I go away. Anyway, I should let you folks get back on topic. Nice to see life still in the forums, though.

Dont leave us

The nostalgia....the nostalgia

https://media.giphy.com/media/2WxWfiavndgcM/giphy.gif

Originally posted by carver9
Cant wait to use forum Surfer.
Originally posted by Galan007
Stop being an idiot, Carver. No one is trying to peddle the bullshit you're spewing right now.

IDK Galan, I think Surfer is actually a good character to bring into this discussion. I know so far things have focused primarily on speed, but the behavior of extremely versatile characters also seem very relevant in a discussion of full capacity vs in-character. For instance, I can totally see the logic behind someone asking why Superman wouldn't let someone hit him in the face if he can easily dodge at super speed, but by the same token why would Surfer risk getting hit if he can just spend the entire fight intangible or behind force fields?

Hell, why would he engage in a prolonged conflict at all when he can use his versatility to end 95% of fights quickly via BFR, turning off their powers, or trapping his opponent in an energy cocoon? And it's not like he's sporting his old mentality where he'd do everything in his power to avoid killing/injuring his opponents, since Annihilation there's been plenty of times when he's gotten downright ruthless against his opponents right up to the point of totally atomizing them even without his being totally enraged/bloodthirsty or them being an immediate threat to the universe or anything like that. Don't get me wrong because there's normally a bit of a build up with him trying to talk them down and saying things like "Please don't make me do this", but in a forum fight where there's no plot and he knows there's no chance of his opponent surrendering or retreating, why would he bother with wasting any words before he started with the one hit kill after he sees that a few energy blasts won't do the job? I've seen people argue that eventually Surfer will end up in h2h exchanges because that's what almost invariably happens in comics, but going by the way things are sounding in this thread, why would that EVER happen in a forum fight? And to be fair, why would Supes if he can do nothing but fly around using HV and freeze breath?

I haven't read the thread, so maybe someone else said this.

I just "CIS symmetry" in general. If my opposition is using only high end, balls-to-the-walls showings then I'll do the same. If we're using averages or acknowledging something is complicated, then cool too.

Preferably, I'll mention both possibilities. "If character X blitzes/TPbombs/bubbleinbrain/generalhax, they win in quick fashion. If not, then whatever nuance you were expecting will probably happen." It avoids the shitstorms. I've tried discussing CIS before, Monet being an example, and it usually goes nowhere. Outside of a few posters, most just post one high end respect thread pic and go "see! It's in character!"

It's as I explained to leo in the Storm and Fantomex scenario in that Psylocke thread. I just found it's easier to compare highs to highs and lows to lows.

Originally posted by darthgoober
IDK Galan, I think Surfer is actually a good character to bring into this discussion. I know so far things have focused primarily on speed, but the behavior of extremely versatile characters also seem very relevant in a discussion of full capacity vs in-character. For instance, I can totally see the logic behind someone asking why Superman wouldn't let someone hit him in the face if he can easily dodge at super speed, but by the same token why would Surfer risk getting hit if he can just spend the entire fight intangible or behind force fields?

Hell, why would he engage in a prolonged conflict at all when he can use his versatility to end 95% of fights quickly via BFR, turning off their powers, or trapping his opponent in an energy cocoon? And it's not like he's sporting his old mentality where he'd do everything in his power to avoid killing/injuring his opponents, since Annihilation there's been plenty of times when he's gotten downright ruthless against his opponents right up to the point of totally atomizing them even without his being totally enraged/bloodthirsty or them being an immediate threat to the universe or anything like that. Don't get me wrong because there's normally a bit of a build up with him trying to talk them down and saying things like "Please don't make me do this", but in a forum fight where there's no plot and he knows there's no chance of his opponent surrendering or retreating, why would he bother with wasting any words before he started with the one hit kill after he sees that a few energy blasts won't do the job? I've seen people argue that eventually Surfer will end up in h2h exchanges because that's what almost invariably happens in comics, but going by the way things are sounding in this thread, why would that EVER happen in a forum fight? And to be fair, why would Supes if he can do nothing but fly around using HV and freeze breath?


This guy gets it (he always does). This is exactly the reason why I said what I said. Ironman would even become a hax character on KMC. Terrax would become relevant again.

Let's put it like this, Terrax actually have FTL and light speed showings... not just flight either. Has destroyed a planet with a swing. Survived in a black hole uninjured, etc, etc... a solid argument can be made of him outright stomping most mid Heralds (Black Adam, etc...) and no one could counter it. This if we are using the characters to the best of their abilities while ignoring their portrayal in comics.

Originally posted by carver9
This guy gets it (he always does).

Uh huh.. Now kindly remove his balls from your mouth.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Uh huh.. Now kindly remove his balls from your mouth.

A sign of respect, nothing more nothing less. There are actually quite a few people here who's debating style I give high props too. I don't dislike everyone Celey.

I'm gonna clarify my stance on the whole thing tonight. After that, people can see what they think as regards the rules going forward.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm gonna clarify my stance on the whole thing tonight. After that, people can see what they think as regards the rules going forward.

Whose side are you on? Somewhere in the middle, yes?

Originally posted by Digi
Y'all ignored my boy Quick Freeze. Shame on everyone.



SHAME

(whatup DIGI!)

Edit:

Originally posted by leonidas
as i've said--repeatedly--SPEED CAN STILL BE USED! you sound like i'm trying to outlaw speed. i'm saying use it as it is used IN COMICS instead of IRL. i'm not forcing a battle board mentality onto comics... i'm doing the EXACT opposite--trying to use comics as a foundation for a battle board.

pis exists in comics. it would still exist in the forum. speed still exists in comics. speed would still exist in the forum. every would still be in play--we could just drop the silly notion of using powers as they would be used by living people in the real world. it only leads to problems.

and btw--i'm not saying one debating method is inherently better than the other. at all. i'd fine fine debating power sets. i'd be fine debating in a more character-based manner. we have a mix of both here, all the time. throw in the constant high and lowballing that takes place in virtually ever thread and it's no wonder threads are constantly derailed or closed or simply become circular in their content.

again, i think if we profess to be character-based, we should be. otherwise we're no different from anyone else. and that'd be fine with me too. just seems we have enough of those types of sites. be nice to see some different arguments from the same tired old ones we see all the time.

This is a public forum.

You and many of us post BATTLES

By your own hand you typed in your Weapon H vs Superman BATTLE you did not know KMC Forum Rules.

You've been here for YEARS The Comics Versus Forum Rules have been Highlighted, Made Real Easy For All To Read.

Even if you read them once many moons ago ... they have been until recently very highly visible.

Re: Mods perhaps you could disengage the Comic Versus Rules Sticky from the consolidated sticky so tbey can exist once again in an impossible not to see presentation for those of us who may have need to refresh our memory often.

and perhaps consider posting an audio file of the forum rules with exactly the same wording as the text file.

The forum rules allow for every OP to tailor the terms of battle.

If the Op chooses not to do this or the Op is ignorant that the forum rules allow every one to create and specify their own run-time environment AND terms of engagement the fault is with the Op error code is: PEBCAK RL OP CIS obvious and not so obvious fixes: RTFM, Read The Story - Read A Few Full Run Titles and Story Arcs From Beginning to End before you even consider trying to tell people who have read the character of a comic book character especially characters with multiple character presets)) how in your self limiting observation of isolated images on a message board and confused linear thought process you think a character will turn up for an out of universe fight not to fight at full capacity.

Originally posted by darthgoober
IDK Galan, I think Surfer is actually a good character to bring into this discussion. I know so far things have focused primarily on speed, but the behavior of extremely versatile characters also seem very relevant in a discussion of full capacity vs in-character. For instance, I can totally see the logic behind someone asking why Superman wouldn't let someone hit him in the face if he can easily dodge at super speed, but by the same token why would Surfer risk getting hit if he can just spend the entire fight intangible or behind force fields?

Hell, why would he engage in a prolonged conflict at all when he can use his versatility to end 95% of fights quickly via BFR, turning off their powers, or trapping his opponent in an energy cocoon? And it's not like he's sporting his old mentality where he'd do everything in his power to avoid killing/injuring his opponents, since Annihilation there's been plenty of times when he's gotten downright ruthless against his opponents right up to the point of totally atomizing them even without his being totally enraged/bloodthirsty or them being an immediate threat to the universe or anything like that. Don't get me wrong because there's normally a bit of a build up with him trying to talk them down and saying things like "Please don't make me do this", but in a forum fight where there's no plot and he knows there's no chance of his opponent surrendering or retreating, why would he bother with wasting any words before he started with the one hit kill after he sees that a few energy blasts won't do the job? I've seen people argue that eventually Surfer will end up in h2h exchanges because that's what almost invariably happens in comics, but going by the way things are sounding in this thread, why would that EVER happen in a forum fight? And to be fair, why would Supes if he can do nothing but fly around using HV and freeze breath? carv is just being a jackass intentionally, though. He's trying to act like the 'full capacity' thing is what's being discussed here. It isn't.

As mentioned, speed is one of the six fundamental abilities at a character's disposal. As an example, this sort of scale is how I think most of us would break down the "fundamental abilities" of any given character(without getting into the more esoteric powers they might have access to):
https://i.imgur.com/oV88GYe.jpg


That being said, the assumption that Superman isn't a drooling buffoon, and would at least use *just enough* of his speed defensively(we're not even talking about offensive speed-blitzes at this point) to stay alive in a forum battle if he deemed his opponent a legitimate threat, isn't remotely the same as Surfer(or any versatile character) pulling exotic abilities out of his ass at the onset.

As someone mentioned earlier: at the end of the day this is a battle board; not a comic book. At some point we have to remove the character(s) from the sharp confines of in-universe plot, and use a smidgen of logic/reason in judging how they might handle themselves in these made-up battles. There has to be a rational suspension of disbelief... And I think it is perfectly rational to believe that a speedster would use *just enough* of their speed(at a minimum) to stay alive in a forum setting.

Does this mean I'm saying that Superman is going to blitz every opponent with planet-busting punches in the first attosecond of the battle, and erase their essence with counter-vibrational frequencies? Obviously not... And anyone who honestly thinks that is the crux of this discussion(not referring to you, btw) really needs to pull their heads out of their own asses.

Originally posted by carver9
Let's put it like this, Terrax actually have FTL and light speed showings... not just flight either. Has destroyed a planet with a swing. Survived in a black hole uninjured, etc, etc... a solid argument can be made of him outright stomping most mid Heralds (Black Adam, etc...) and no one could counter it. This if we are using the characters to the best of their abilities while ignoring their portrayal in comics.

Reading this as a neighbors dogs is barking non stop.


This is all I'll hear from now on, every time I read a Carver post.

Superman absolutely does choose to get hit. Consistently. It's an established part of his character and MO, and it's laughable to pretend otherwise.

The Warren Ellis scene specifically states that. You'd have to be one hell of a liar to cite that as evidence that he doesn't deliberately attempt to absorb attacks.

Originally posted by shiv
Edit:



This is a public forum.

You and many of us post BATTLES

By your own hand you typed in your Weapon H vs Superman BATTLE you did not know KMC Forum Rules.

You've been here for YEARS The Comics Versus Forum Rules have been Highlighted, Made Real Easy For All To Read.

Even if you read them once many moons ago ... they have been until recently very highly visible.

Re: Mods perhaps you could disengage the Comic Versus Rules Sticky from the consolidated sticky so tbey can exist once again in an impossible not to see presentation for those of us who may have need to refresh our memory often.

and perhaps consider posting an audio file of the forum rules with exactly the same wording as the text file.

The forum rules allow for every OP to tailor the terms of battle.

If the Op chooses not to do this or the Op is ignorant that the forum rules allow every one to create and specify their own run-time environment AND terms of engagement the fault is with the Op error code is: PEBCAK RL OP CIS obvious and not so obvious fixes: RTFM, Read The Story - Read A Few Full Run Titles and Story Arcs From Beginning to End before you even consider trying to tell people who have read the character of a comic book character ((especially characters with multiple character presets)) what in your self limiting observation of isolated images on a message board and confused linear thought process how a character will turn up for an out of universe fight not to fight at full capacity.

um.....i guess that was some attempt at trying to sound intelligent...?

anyway, thread makers still retain complete rights to dictate the match of course, but thanks for pointing out they have the rights, currently? the only change would be a re-emphasis on character as a default setting.

and while i may advocate for the change, i've said repeatedly that it doesn't matter to me ultimately how the forum handles its business. i'll pretty much debate anyone, in any way, on anything around here--i think that has been borne out over the years. i just happen to think we have more than enough power set/full capacity sites online already though. i do agree with one thing you were sort of getting at--if the SPIRIT of the established rules was followed, there wouldn't likely be any problems. and, regardless of what, if anything, comes from this hullabaloo, it has served to at least highlight some of the issues that pop up so often in threads. and tbh, that alone is good enough with me.

see previous posts for a still as yet unanswered question.

i'm happy to let the discussion run its course at this point. i tried to explain my reasoning behind raising this issue, but, as with so much on the forum, people will read into it whatever they like. there have been some good points raised on both sides, and if some changes--or at least reaffirmations come from this, well, if not, it at least killed some time, led to the re-emergence of some old faces lol and led to some very interesting discussion. mods, i appreciate you keeping this open and i leave it, and whatever (if any) future actions that stem from it, in your hands.

Originally posted by panthergod
Superman absolutely does choose to get hit. Consistently. It's an established part of his character and MO, and it's laughable to pretend otherwise.

The Warren Ellis scene specifically states that. You'd have to be one hell of a liar to cite that as evidence that he doesn't deliberately attempt to absorb attacks.

Superman also has super senses that let him gauge a threat.


I can produce scans of Superman actively avoiding attacks he's uncertain of, such as a time he fought a giant robot shooting eye lasers at him, in the post crisis era..

Originally posted by Galan007
carv is just being a jackass intentionally, though. He's trying to act like the 'full capacity' thing is what's being discussed here. It isn't.

As mentioned, speed is one of the six fundamental abilities at a character's disposal. As an example, this sort of scale is how I think most of us would break down the "fundamental abilities" of any given character(without getting into the more esoteric powers they might have access to):
https://i.imgur.com/oV88GYe.jpg


That being said, the assumption that Superman isn't a drooling buffoon, and would at least use *just enough* of his speed defensively(we're not even talking about offensive speed-blitzes at this point) to stay alive in a forum battle if he deemed his opponent a legitimate threat, isn't remotely the same as Surfer(or any versatile character) pulling exotic abilities out of his ass at the onset.

As someone mentioned earlier: at the end of the day this is a battle board; not a comic book. At some point we have to remove the character(s) from the sharp confines of in-universe plot, and use a smidgen of logic/reason in judging how they might handle themselves in these made-up battles. There has to be a rational suspension of disbelief... And I think it is perfectly rational to believe that a speedster would use *just enough* of their speed(at a minimum) to stay alive in a forum setting.

Does this mean I'm saying that Superman is going to blitz every opponent with planet-busting punches in the first attosecond of the battle, and erase their essence with counter-vibrational frequencies? Obviously not... And anyone who honestly thinks that is the crux of this discussion(not referring to you, btw) really needs to pull their heads out of their own asses.
Yeah but that's the thing, using *just enough* speed is effectively the same thing as going all out in speed if the character's unhittable to his opponent. The degree to which he's using his speed is irrelevant. And I wouldn't say that a character's fundamentals are limited only to those 6 attributes, there's been plenty that have made the list on the various power grids. I think the full list is...

Strength
Intelligence
Energy Projection
Mental Powers
Fighting Ability
Speed
Agility
Durability
Stamina

Most esoteric stuff falls under the categories of energy projection and mental powers. Now you say that your six is what most people consider primary attributes, but as you note that's specifically avoiding getting into esoteric powers, which effectively penalizes versatile characters for being too hax when superspeed itself is also a hax ability. Versatile characters don't typically bust out the exotic from the get go for the exact same reason that super speed is downplayed... for the sake of the plot. It seems like the line that people are trying to draw is so subjective that no amount of clarification will ever keep 90% of debates from boiling down to arguments about the fundamental interpretation of basic forum rules unless the rule just flat out states that superspeed is the only hax ability allowed because Surfer's not a blathering baffoon either and there's no logical reason for him to risk losing rather than stay intangible or add force fields on top of his already impressive durability in order to be virtually invincible in every fight.

As for the speed and versatility being used offensively with devastating results to every opponent, if it's really something that you guys are against then you're probably going to need to remove the Flash example from the forum rules because it does specifically note that on the forum he'll end the fight in the first second of battle which is why people continue to argue that way. I think a large part of the problem is that he's the ONLY example given. See back in the day when Tron laid out the original rules he and Digi would also frequently step in to point out that versatile characters would also try to end their battles as quickly and efficiently as possible just as Flash would. Now it's a different day and the forum's being run differently which is fine, but having that one example with no form of counter balance makes it seem from the outside as though the forum specifically favors speed above all other abilities.

I understand that a lot of people like to see KMC as the middle ground between the debating styles of herochat and CBR and I used to be one of those people. But since you guys are less interested in policing debates than the Mods of yesteryear, personally it's seeming more and more like that's just not possible to do without pissing off half the forum because someone always feels like their favorite characters are getting the short end of the stick. I think if we really want to be fair to all characters, things are just going to have to go one way or the other unless you guys want to have to constantly step in. I can honestly debate by either standard just fine, but trying to navigate a minefield of what seem to be double standards really makes the whole act of debating a headache, which is why I personally try to avoid making more than 2 or 3 posts on any given match. It just doesn't seem worth it to engage the way I used to when me and the person I'm debating can't even agree on the basics of what is relevant based on the rules.

You misunderstand.

I am not saying that esoteric abilities shouldn't be used offensively in a forum setting. That has never been the crux of this discussion at all. I am simply saying that at a bare-bones minimum, it makes sense that a character should at least be able to use a fundamental/rudimentary ability like speed defensively to avoid imminent danger in a forum battle.

Using exotic powers, or even speed, offensively is an entirely different discussion... This whole "how will a character use speed in a forum setting" thing was a bleed-over from a separate thread, which is why most are focusing solely on the application superspeed and nothing else.

Originally posted by Galan007
carv is just being a jackass intentionally, though. He's trying to act like the 'full capacity' thing is what's being discussed here. It isn't.

As mentioned, speed is one of the six fundamental abilities at a character's disposal. As an example, this sort of scale is how I think most of us would break down the "fundamental abilities" of any given character(without getting into the more esoteric powers they might have access to):
https://i.imgur.com/oV88GYe.jpg


That being said, the assumption that Superman isn't a drooling buffoon, and would at least use *just enough* of his speed defensively(we're not even talking about offensive speed-blitzes at this point) to stay alive in a forum battle if he deemed his opponent a legitimate threat, isn't remotely the same as Surfer(or any versatile character) pulling exotic abilities out of his ass at the onset.

As someone mentioned earlier: at the end of the day this is a battle board; not a comic book. At some point we have to remove the character(s) from the sharp confines of in-universe plot, and use a smidgen of logic/reason in judging how they might handle themselves in these made-up battles. There has to be a rational suspension of disbelief... And I think it is perfectly rational to believe that a speedster would use *just enough* of their speed(at a minimum) to stay alive in a forum setting.

Does this mean I'm saying that Superman is going to blitz every opponent with planet-busting punches in the first attosecond of the battle, and erase their essence with counter-vibrational frequencies? Obviously not... And anyone who honestly thinks that is the crux of this discussion(not referring to you, btw) really needs to pull their heads out of their own asses.

This seems perfectly reasonable.

The basic abilities, that follow a minuscule amount of logic should at the very least be the ones used by default, for any character. Even more so, when it's the pure basics of defense - not even getting into offense . People wanting to argue more is where is arguments should start - but the baseline '4th grader' logic should already be there.

It's his day off. He's enjoying the sun

Clark is walking and talking on his phone to his pal billy, just a routine social call, y'know, cuz they're pals.

He smiles and nods (at the approopriate speed for a regular human of course) at the old timer with the hot dog stand who does a mean corn dog.

"Hey Clark!"

Clark touches the index finger on his right hand to the bridge on the frame of his pretend reading glasses nice and slow (so every one can see him) and ambles over (all an act of course).

Aaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!

A woman is screaming, she has gone into labor in an elevator in a city full of millions of high frequency sounds.

Wait... how did... how did... how did... he percieve that and get the correct change out of his wallet (and leave a tip) eat his corn dog take his glasses off, take his clothes off, take his shoes off, completely change his identity, fly across the city, locate the exact building enter the elevator shaft, get in the elevator and scoop her up in his arms before she'd even finished the first scream that she started?

Shouldn't Clark have been perceiving sound like a human? There was no danger to him shouldn't he have had to idk go through some sort of procedure where his abilities, perception, speed, his everything expands in increments?

Read enough clark kent and you'll see this hundreds of times.

Superman's speed is in character at full capacity immediately upon threst detection.

If it wasn't he wouldn't have a secret identity. And he wouldn't be able to perform instantaneous rescues

Every one who actually reads the character will know clark will be having dinner he'll absent mindedly read see or hear something...



and... he's in Malaysia... Earlier that second, Clark was completely relaxed.

If you read the character you will know (No Acting) No reason to chat with and talk down an opponent, get content, get a quote (get a story) for his newspaper (remember he is a reporter) = He's just not going to not make full and istinctive use of his fundamental abilities.

Okay, so, I wanted to put this up last night, but it turned in to a monster, so **** it, I waited until I was happy with it to post it. Basically, you should all know better, and I shouldn't have to explain something that should be common sense after years on this board. So now I'm going to write it out in a way that is going to seem as basic and possibly patronising as possible, but to be honest I want to make sure there are no misunderstandings. In Character means that to the best of your ability, you write the character reacting how they would react in a given situation without the demands of the plot or themselves getting in their own way.

TLDR: Characters, generally, don't self-sabotage to the point that it will cost them the match, nor will they accelerate to 100 in the over-the-top use of their powers, unless it's something you can prove is a habit of theirs.

So, what IS In Character?

It's something that should easily be boiled down to "How a character will react when put in to a specific circumstance" namely a VS battle. How do we know this, or rather, should we know this? Simple: You can name any one of a dozen, if not two-dozen people on this board that could walk in to the offices of Marvel or DC and, like many other comic fans, be seen as having encyclopedic knowledge of a character or a team. The assumption is that with that knowledge comes a level of understanding of said character. If you're reasonably intelligent, and I know a lot of the people on this board are (even if they pretend to be dense as **** sometimes), understanding a character in broad strokes is not that hard.

For example, I've read less than... I'd say easily less than a hundred Spider-Man comics, but if you asked me to describe his personality, I could draw on said comics even without having seen movies or cartoons or even that weird TV show from the 80s, and tell you that Spider-Man is, deep down, just a person trying to do the right thing. He's a genius but also a nerd. He loves his aunt, he loves (or did love) his wife Mary Jane, and he would feel deeply the loss of anyone he couldn't save. That's simple stuff.

Now, if we talk about powers... I know the base-level stuff. I know he can stick to walls. I know he can shoot webs from web shooters he made himself. I know he has a Spider-Sense that warns him of danger. I know he's strong, durable and fast. Strong enough that he has to pull his punches so that a bank-robber's heart doesn't explode. Fast enough that he's not likely to get hit by gunfire. I have read that he's the most agile person in Marvel, though I don't know if that's true or just was at one point. But he does a LOT of flippy shit in his comics. That said, there are probably a bunch of applications of his powers that I haven't the foggiest idea about.

So, with those two in mind, as limited as it might be, I come to the third part: How Spider-Man fights In Character. How do I get there? Simple. As much as I want to be able to say "You go by how the character behaves, not how you would in their place", you still have to fill in the gaps once you take things like PIS out. But, and this is the important part, you are SUPPLEMENTING them. You are NOT. REPLACING. Shit. What you would do with Spider-Man or any other character's powers is great and all, but it's what leads to powerset v powerset, and is for tourneys, NOT for the general board. This part of the point is incredibly important. You are still operating within the paramaters of what a character WOULD do, as opposed to what they CAN do.

Even from reading the comics I've read, which I've already admitted is not that many in comparison to some of the people on this board, I can still say several things with reasonable certainty when it comes to Spider-Man: His superior agility means most enemies will have a hard time hitting him unless they have some hard counter to it like superior speed. He likes to use his webs, which means that character that specialise in melee are going to have a hard time against him, and Spider-Man KNOWS THIS. Because HE KNOWS THIS, he is smart enough to use this to his advantage. This means that because HE knows he doesn't have to close to melee range, that he won't stupidly decide halfway through the fight to try outpunching someone that could out-punch him. Or to waste time on someone that can be wrapped up with one shot of his webs. He can still get close up and win fights, sure, but that's an option, not a necessity.

Obviously, if someone knows Spider-Man better than I do, I'm going to end up getting corrected in threads when it comes to facts about the character, his power levels or his villains if I say something wrong, but the basic idea is still there. I've seen Spider-Man use his webs enough, to be competent in their use, and to avoid attacks while concentrating on his own, to know that at the very least, it's common behaviour. There's a reason "Spider-Man webs up Character X" is a viable tactic on the forum.

"But Pr," you might ask "What if a character has a power that they use more sparingly?". Well, to that I would say:

-Is it a part of their powerset and has been used occasionally enough (ie, like, a dozen times, maybe) that they won't forget they can use it?
-Can they access this power/ability right now?
-Will not using it cost them the fight?

And that right there? That's arguably the most important question.

If the answer to all three of those is yes, then they're most likely going to use the power/ability. Either their opponent can stand up to it, or they can't.

Is that simple enough? I mean, what else do you really need to know?

For the last part of this point, I'm going to use a character I know a bit better: Wally West. Flash is notorious on the forum, and you could say some of it is earned. Most of it, however, is not the fault of the character. If you, as a poster, put The Flash against someone that does not have the means to hurt him, then that is on YOU. It's not The Flash's fault that he's not going to slow down or trip over a branch just to give a substantially slower character a chance against him. And no, no talking shit about the Rogues, btw; they're all designed from the ground up to fight The Flash. They're not ammo for your favourite street leveller to have a shot against him.

If you put Deathstroke up against Flash and try to argue using Identity Crisis as evidence, you deserve to get laughed out of the thread. Like a whole lot of Marvel and DC, you get a writer that writes interesting character studies, or great fights. You rarely get both, and that fight, as entertaining as it was, should have been over before Deathstroke was even able to exhale.

-Now, continuing to use the Flash, and to briefly talk about the Superman Vs Weapon H thread:

A character like the Flash is not going to get hit by someone substantially slower than him unless they have some counter to his powers. Simple as that. Wally West isn't Superman (and I'm going to get in to this in a later post). He can't afford to get hit more than once or twice before it starts to actually impact his ability to win the fight. And this, at the end of all of this ranting on the subject, is where I try to lay it out as best as I can:

The Flash/Relevant Character X will use, at a bare minimum, the least amount of speed/Relevant Power, that he is capable of using under average/normal circumstances, required to not lose the fight, or get so badly injured that it will most-likely cost him the fight. Every superhero or supervillain has a minimum amount of effort and competence that they will utilise going in to a fight. For villains that's usually a higher starting point because they like to not hold back, sure, but the heroes aren't going to be stupid either. They are not going to self-sabotage, and they will not let pride, ego or forgetting they have a way to win the fight to get in the way.

-If you put Flash up against someone that can't beat him without PIS, that's not his fault. That's yours.
-If you put Shadowcat up against someone that can't get around her intangibility without PIS, that's not her fault. That's yours.
-If you put someone up against Xavier that can't get past his telepathy to push him down the stairs, again, that's not his fault. That's yours.

This whole idea of putting lesser character up against ones they can't (and notice I said can't, not won't) beat just because you like them more? I doubt it's going to stop, but seriously, anyone who does it? You're not being clever. We all see what you're doing. You should stop. You'll be better off.

If you read this far, congrats. I really hope this, or at least part of this, has cleared things up for anyone who wasn't sure.

I agree with what Paul said that was stolen from what I said.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I agree with what Paul said that was stolen from what I said.

Where do you think I got the idea?

==

I do want to get in to how "In Character" and "Full Capacity" actually work well together rather than being mutually exclusive, but tbh I don't know if I really have to.

If you want to see a character's full potential, that's what high-end feats are for most of the time.

Originally posted by -Pr-
In Character means that to the best of your ability, you write the character reacting how they would react in a given situation without the demands of the plot or themselves getting in their own way.

TLDR: Characters, generally, don't self-sabotage to the point that it will cost them the match, nor will they accelerate to 100 in the over-the-top use of their powers, unless it's something you can prove is a habit of theirs.

So, what IS In Character?

The assumption is that with that knowledge comes a level of understanding of said character. If you're reasonably intelligent, and I know a lot of the people on this board are (even if they pretend to be dense as **** sometimes), understanding a character in broad strokes is not that hard.

"But Pr," you might ask "What if a character has a power that they use more sparingly?". Well, to that I would say:

-Is it a part of their powerset and has been used occasionally enough (ie, like, a dozen times, maybe) that they won't forget they can use it?
-Can they access this power/ability right now?
-Will not using it cost them the fight?

And that right there? That's arguably the most important question.

If the answer to all three of those is yes, then they're most likely going to use the power/ability. Either their opponent can stand up to it, or they can't.

Is that simple enough? I mean, what else do you really need to know?

For the last part of this point, I'm going to use a character I know a bit better: Wally West. Flash is notorious on the forum, and you could say some of it is earned. Most of it, however, is not the fault of the character. If you, as a poster, put The Flash against someone that does not have the means to hurt him, then that is on YOU. It's not The Flash's fault that he's not going to slow down or trip over a branch just to give a substantially slower character a chance against him. And no, no talking shit about the Rogues, btw; they're all designed from the ground up to fight The Flash. They're not ammo for your favourite street leveller to have a shot against him.

If you put Deathstroke up against Flash and try to argue using Identity Crisis as evidence, you deserve to get laughed out of the thread. Like a whole lot of Marvel and DC, you get a writer that writes interesting character studies, or great fights. You rarely get both, and that fight, as entertaining as it was, should have been over before Deathstroke was even able to exhale.

-Now, continuing to use the Flash, and to briefly talk about the Superman Vs Weapon H thread:

A character like the Flash is not going to get hit by someone substantially slower than him unless they have some counter to his powers. Simple as that. Wally West isn't Superman (and I'm going to get in to this in a later post). He can't afford to get hit more than once or twice before it starts to actually impact his ability to win the fight. And this, at the end of all of this ranting on the subject, is where I try to lay it out as best as I can:

The Flash/Relevant Character X will use, at a bare minimum, the least amount of speed/Relevant Power, that he is capable of using under average/normal circumstances, required to not lose the fight, or get so badly injured that it will most-likely cost him the fight. Every superhero or supervillain has a minimum amount of effort and competence that they will utilise going in to a fight. For villains that's usually a higher starting point because they like to not hold back, sure, but the heroes aren't going to be stupid either. They are not going to self-sabotage, and they will not let pride, ego or forgetting they have a way to win the fight to get in the way.

-If you put Flash up against someone that can't beat him without PIS, that's not his fault. That's yours.
-If you put Shadowcat up against someone that can't get around her intangibility without PIS, that's not her fault. That's yours.
-If you put someone up against Xavier that can't get past his telepathy to push him down the stairs, again, that's not his fault. That's yours.

This whole idea of putting lesser character up against ones they can't (and notice I said can't, not won't) beat just because you like them more? I doubt it's going to stop, but seriously, anyone who does it? You're not being clever. We all see what you're doing. You should stop. You'll be better off.

Originally posted by Galan007
I agree for the most part.

I'll use Superman as the lead example here because he's who got this ball rolling in the first place, but the same logic can apply to any speedsters really... My personal opinion is that if you don't want Superman having the potential to hyper-blitz his opponent in a thread, just specify such in the OP, and/or equalize their speeds initially. Problem solved.

If speed is allowed, however, I think Superman is intelligent/rational enough to at least use his speed defensively, in order to avoid getting killed by his opponent IF he believes them to be a legitimate threat. For example, put Supes against Lex with a Kryptonite knife, and I think we can all agree that Superman isn't just going to stand there and allow Lex to stab him with said knife. He's going to dodge the slashes with an *adequate* amount of speed for that particular situation/threat, and then neutralize the threat with that same *adequate* amount of speed. Why? Because he knows the knife is a potential danger to him and he doesn't want to die.

Does that mean he's going to instantly blitz every opponent within the first attosecond of the battle and melt their faces off with HV? No. That wouldn't be a reasonable standard to put him at on average. But as I said, there has to be a point where simple logic/reason factors into how these characters would fight in a forum battle. Again, we can probably all agree that the characters are assumed to go into these battles with the basic will to live, right?

Just MO.

Originally posted by Galan007
carv is just being a jackass intentionally, though. He's trying to act like the 'full capacity' thing is what's being discussed here. It isn't.

As mentioned, speed is one of the six fundamental abilities at a character's disposal. As an example, this sort of scale is how I think most of us would break down the "fundamental abilities" of any given character(without getting into the more esoteric powers they might have access to):
https://i.imgur.com/oV88GYe.jpg


That being said, the assumption that Superman isn't a drooling buffoon, and would at least use *just enough* of his speed defensively(we're not even talking about offensive speed-blitzes at this point) to stay alive in a forum battle if he deemed his opponent a legitimate threat, isn't remotely the same as Surfer(or any versatile character) pulling exotic abilities out of his ass at the onset.

As someone mentioned earlier: at the end of the day this is a battle board; not a comic book. At some point we have to remove the character(s) from the sharp confines of in-universe plot, and use a smidgen of logic/reason in judging how they might handle themselves in these made-up battles. There has to be a rational suspension of disbelief... And I think it is perfectly rational to believe that a speedster would use *just enough* of their speed(at a minimum) to stay alive in a forum setting.

Does this mean I'm saying that Superman is going to blitz every opponent with planet-busting punches in the first attosecond of the battle, and erase their essence with counter-vibrational frequencies? Obviously not... And anyone who honestly thinks that is the crux of this discussion(not referring to you, btw) really needs to pull their heads out of their own asses.

Can we, at long last, put all of this into the rules, so that these threads don't pop up every 2 years?

And maybe, just maybe, given that speed is the problem every time, put a hint at the bottom of it as "pssst, equalize speed if you don't want your consistently super-fast character vs not-super fast character thread to get you angry".

Pr can edit it into the rules, or I can. Either way.

Because, yeah... I want this discussion to be properly squashed and never be contested again after this thread.

Heh. I was expecting Phil to disagree with me, tbh. But yeah, if Galan and Bada are happy with that, sure, why not. If Galan doesn't want to deal with all that formatting, I can.

On the topic of Superman, though, this is what I wanted to put in the original post, but it was too long:

==

Because it seems to be relevant (at least to me), I'm going to talk about Superman himself. I'm sure plenty of you will disagree, and most of you won't even read this, but it's cathartic, so **** you.

Superman has super-speed. This is NOT debatable. "Faster than a speeding bullet" anyone? Even when people like McDuffie nerfed the shit out of him, he sill had Superman use his speed on occasion. It's listed in the ****ing DC Encyclopedia sitting on my shelf. Right after super-strength. Literally. It's the second one listed. Before FLIGHT. Superman being fast is as much a part of his powerset as Wolverine healing, or Nightcrawler's agility. And even if it didn't, there is a mountain of evidence that shows just how fast the guy is, both in travel and in reflex speed.

So then, when people ask "Why doesn't he use it that often?", the answer is simple. Whether it's down to lazy or just bad writing, PIS, or any other number of reasons, the truth is, it's because:

Most of the time, he just doesn't have to.

You have a character who:

-Is the strongest superhero on DC Earth. Sorry Kara/Diana/Billy/Adam fans; you're wrong.
-Is so invulnerable that you need to either be on his level yourself (and most people aren't), or have access to one of the three things that can actually mess with him. And that's just to hurt him at all.
-Is a scientific genius capable of absorbing and understanding vast amounts of information, and building all kinds of crazy inventions.
-Can fly.
-Can shoot beams of heat/force from his eyes that are as hot as if not hotter than the sun.
-Can exhale gale force winds or freeze you solid in a split-second.
-Can see/hear/smell everything going on around him, and process that information instantly.

All of that alone means he's going to win most of the fights alone. He's a walking, talking superhero team.

And then... And THEN... AND THEN...

On top of all of that, he's arguably faster than any hero on DC Earth that doesn't have a lightning bolt on their costume. It's my opinion that he is, in fact, faster than any hero that isn't a Flash (in travel speed at least, and possibly in combat speed too).

Now, people will bring up the fact that he's had fights that he could have won using speed, but didn't. Some of that shit is valid, though because of the examples we have of him using his speed, we're left with either of two answers: One, he's an idiot/masochist that likes to watch people get hurt, or two, it's just plain shite writing or PIS. The latter is far more likely, and in the case of the board, should be the default reasoning. And, we also have more than one in-universe example of Superman willingly taking punches/hits/blasts in the first place. As in, he's intentionally not using his speed to get around shit for actual, valid reasons that go beyond "he's a dumbass". Writers have literally shown us reasons for Superman getting hit by people that should not be able to hit a guy that fast.

The first is, quite plainly, that Superman tends to assume that most shit can't hurt him. You can read all kinds of superhero comics, and in the vast majority of them, the hero is in peril while saving the world. They're saving everyone around them too, sure, but Captain America, the X-Men, most of the Justice League and so on; they're fighting villains that are as much a danger to them as they are to the people they're trying to save.

Superman, more than any hero I've read, encounters that far less. He's saving Metropolis, Earth, Lois or Jimmy, but the actual villain? They're not going to be able to kill, or even seriously harm Superman. That's not to say that Superman doesn't fight his fair share of villains that can hurt him. He does. But it's just not as common.

This is a dude that's had super-strength since he was a toddler. He didn't have to visit the emergency room as a child because he tried drinking from the coloured bottles under the sink, or sticking something in an outlet. He didn't get burned because he put his hand too close to the fireplace. He's grown up not getting sick or feeling pain in a world full of vulnerable, paper-thin people. And, like I said, most of the time he's not in any real danger himself. His days are spent pulling people out of burning buildings or stopping bank robberies (neither of which is any real danger to him), so that when something does come along, something that can hurt him, naturally that takes him by surprise.

He's also busy. Like, insanely busy. At any given time, Superman is hearing not just every voice on Earth simoultaneously, but potentially EVERY SOUND. And that's just one of his senses. His brain is processing everything all the time. Even when he punches people, he can actually do so in a way that even the geometry of his punch is measured so that he's not punching some villain in to a crowd of people that will get mulched by the flying body. If you're going to tell me that in the middle of a fight he can't get distracted just a little bit?

Then you have the heavily, heavily displayed idea that Superman is the king of the proportionate response. When Superman gets hurt, or encounters someone that can actually match him in one area, he doesn't just go full power and wipe them out. No, he brings himself up just enough to beat him or her. If Superman starts at a 10 and they start at a 15? Superman dials it up to 16 because, and he's said so himself, even he doesn't know how powerful he is. At 20, or even 18, he might do some serious damage. This is a guy that instead of just killing a metallic enemy, will instead calculate the actual melting point of their armour and use his heat vision to disable rather than kill them. And this isn't like when Batman leaves you in an alleyway with broken legs and a TBI while telling himself "I don't kill". Superman wants to save everyone, even if it means saving them from themselves.

That includes villains.

Which leads in to the final point: Superman doesn't want to fight. He doesn't like it. He wants to talk things out. If you need to punch him to work off some of that anger, then so be it. He'll let you do that. Even if it hurts him, he'll let it happen. But only to a point. Past a certain point, he WILL decide that you've had enough of a chance to calm the **** down by yourself, but now it's time that he does it for you. Unless you're powerful enough to stop him, and let's be real. Few people are. If I'm being honest, if you're the kind of enemy that Superman is going to use his speed against, then you've earned it by being formidable enough to warrant it.

The problem is incorporating that attitude in to a comic book vs forum. Well, it's a problem for some at least.

But no, Solomon Grundy making contact with a haymaker makes Superman slow as shit. All right.

I'm on my phone right now, so it'd probably be easier if you added this 'addendum' into the rules. If not, I can do it later when I get home.

I can do it. If I **** it up, just let me know lol.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Heh. I was expecting Phil to disagree with me, tbh. But yeah, if Galan and Bada are happy with that, sure, why not. If Galan doesn't want to deal with all that formatting, I can.

On the topic of Superman, though, this is what I wanted to put in the original post, but it was too long:

==

Because it seems to be relevant (at least to me), I'm going to talk about Superman himself. I'm sure plenty of you will disagree, and most of you won't even read this, but it's cathartic, so **** you.

Superman has super-speed. This is NOT debatable. "Faster than a speeding bullet" anyone? Even when people like McDuffie nerfed the shit out of him, he sill had Superman use his speed on occasion. It's listed in the ****ing DC Encyclopedia sitting on my shelf. Right after super-strength. Literally. It's the second one listed. Before FLIGHT. Superman being fast is as much a part of his powerset as Wolverine healing, or Nightcrawler's agility. And even if it didn't, there is a mountain of evidence that shows just how fast the guy is, both in travel and in reflex speed.

So then, when people ask "Why doesn't he use it that often?", the answer is simple. Whether it's down to lazy or just bad writing, PIS, or any other number of reasons, the truth is, it's because:

Most of the time, he just doesn't have to.

You have a character who:

-Is the strongest superhero on DC Earth. Sorry Kara/Diana/Billy/Adam fans; you're wrong.
-Is so invulnerable that you need to either be on his level yourself (and most people aren't), or have access to one of the three things that can actually mess with him. And that's just to hurt him at all.
-Is a scientific genius capable of absorbing and understanding vast amounts of information, and building all kinds of crazy inventions.
-Can fly.
-Can shoot beams of heat/force from his eyes that are as hot as if not hotter than the sun.
-Can exhale gale force winds or freeze you solid in a split-second.
-Can see/hear/smell everything going on around him, and process that information instantly.

All of that alone means he's going to win most of the fights alone. He's a walking, talking superhero team.

And then... And THEN... AND THEN...

On top of all of that, he's arguably faster than any hero on DC Earth that doesn't have a lightning bolt on their costume. It's my opinion that he is, in fact, faster than any hero that isn't a Flash (in travel speed at least, and possibly in combat speed too).

Now, people will bring up the fact that he's had fights that he could have won using speed, but didn't. Some of that shit is valid, though because of the examples we have of him using his speed, we're left with either of two answers: One, he's an idiot/masochist that likes to watch people get hurt, or two, it's just plain shite writing or PIS. The latter is far more likely, and in the case of the board, should be the default reasoning. And, we also have more than one in-universe example of Superman willingly taking punches/hits/blasts in the first place. As in, he's intentionally not using his speed to get around shit for actual, valid reasons that go beyond "he's a dumbass". Writers have literally shown us reasons for Superman getting hit by people that should not be able to hit a guy that fast.

The first is, quite plainly, that Superman tends to assume that most shit can't hurt him. You can read all kinds of superhero comics, and in the vast majority of them, the hero is in peril while saving the world. They're saving everyone around them too, sure, but Captain America, the X-Men, most of the Justice League and so on; they're fighting villains that are as much a danger to them as they are to the people they're trying to save.

Superman, more than any hero I've read, encounters that far less. He's saving Metropolis, Earth, Lois or Jimmy, but the actual villain? They're not going to be able to kill, or even seriously harm Superman. That's not to say that Superman doesn't fight his fair share of villains that can hurt him. He does. But it's just not as common.

This is a dude that's had super-strength since he was a toddler. He didn't have to visit the emergency room as a child because he tried drinking from the coloured bottles under the sink, or sticking something in an outlet. He didn't get burned because he put his hand too close to the fireplace. He's grown up not getting sick or feeling pain in a world full of vulnerable, paper-thin people. And, like I said, most of the time he's not in any real danger himself. His days are spent pulling people out of burning buildings or stopping bank robberies (neither of which is any real danger to him), so that when something does come along, something that can hurt him, naturally that takes him by surprise.

He's also busy. Like, insanely busy. At any given time, Superman is hearing not just every voice on Earth simoultaneously, but potentially EVERY SOUND. And that's just one of his senses. His brain is processing everything all the time. Even when he punches people, he can actually do so in a way that even the geometry of his punch is measured so that he's not punching some villain in to a crowd of people that will get mulched by the flying body. If you're going to tell me that in the middle of a fight he can't get distracted just a little bit?

Then you have the heavily, heavily displayed idea that Superman is the king of the proportionate response. When Superman gets hurt, or encounters someone that can actually match him in one area, he doesn't just go full power and wipe them out. No, he brings himself up just enough to beat him or her. If Superman starts at a 10 and they start at a 15? Superman dials it up to 16 because, and he's said so himself, even he doesn't know how powerful he is. At 20, or even 18, he might do some serious damage. This is a guy that instead of just killing a metallic enemy, will instead calculate the actual melting point of their armour and use his heat vision to disable rather than kill them. And this isn't like when Batman leaves you in an alleyway with broken legs and a TBI while telling himself "I don't kill". Superman wants to save everyone, even if it means saving them from themselves.

That includes villains.

Which leads in to the final point: Superman doesn't want to fight. He doesn't like it. He wants to talk things out. If you need to punch him to work off some of that anger, then so be it. He'll let you do that. Even if it hurts him, he'll let it happen. But only to a point. Past a certain point, he WILL decide that you've had enough of a chance to calm the **** down by yourself, but now it's time that he does it for you. Unless you're powerful enough to stop him, and let's be real. Few people are. If I'm being honest, if you're the kind of enemy that Superman is going to use his speed against, then you've earned it by being formidable enough to warrant it.

The problem is incorporating that attitude in to a comic book vs forum. Well, it's a problem for some at least.

But no, Solomon Grundy making contact with a haymaker makes Superman slow as shit. All right. Nope

If you need reasons, Carver will be along shortly to explain why this is wrong.

I'm surprised you think that, lol. In all of my posts - for which I talked about basic defense, I literally made the bottom of the barrel assumption that Superman won't let a character who can potentially hurt/cut him , be able to do so. That's...it. That he's not a masochist. For two threads, and a dozen posts, if you can imagine my frustration. No him vibrating through attacks or turning invisible - no attosecond-time, infinite strength Superman erasing people from existence, vibrating them into pieces, flying through them SF Darkseid style, no HV lobotomizing, no pressure points-blitz, no IMPs, no freezing and shattering limbs, no nothing. The Superman I tried to present was literally with the logic of a 4th grader, "I shouldn't get hit, so I will use my basic power of speed not to get hit", and I still got shit for it.

Now, I can't talk for any otHer Superman fans 1n this thread...

You really forced that 1 in there.

Carver will be along shortly to point out what you meant

Saying that Superman will dodge adamantium claws is exactly the same as saying Silver Surfer will turn intangible and make black holes in people's eyeballs.

I agree with Pr. Phil is a real Clarkbag.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
You really forced that 1 in there.

Carver will be along shortly to point out what you meant Fixed..

Originally posted by NemeBro
Saying that Superman will dodge adamantium claws is exactly the same as saying Silver Surfer will turn intangible and make black holes in people's eyeballs. If I couldn't see your username...

I'll take it to PMs, since there's enough of this talk anyway.

lol np

I'll have a post ready to go up shortly, just want to see what Bada thinks too.

Why would we apply logic and common sense defensively but not offensively though? I mean is there any reason other than making fights last longer? Aren't we effectively inserting our own "plot' to the fights that go down on the forum by actively trying to draw them out that way?

Keep in mind, I'm not trying to argue with you mods(you obviously have the final say so regardless of what anyone else thinks), I'm just trying to understand the reasoning. And I know that super speed is what started this convo and that's why the focus has been on it, but let's face it, the basic general idea of "full capacity vs in-character" is something that comes up in regards to versatility too so I don't understand why we don't go ahead and clarify that kind of thing too. I mean it derails threads almost as often as how characters use their super speed does. You guys know if we don't that Carver or someone else is going to open another "full capacity vs in-character" with versatility as the focus lol. The thread title itself is generalized so why not just open up the discussion to all aspects of it.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Why would we apply logic and common sense defensively but not offensively though? I mean is there any reason other than making fights last longer? Aren't we effectively inserting our own "plot' to the fights that go down on the forum by actively trying to draw them out that way?

Keep in mind, I'm not trying to argue with you mods(you obviously have the final say so regardless of what anyone else thinks), I'm just trying to understand the reasoning. And I know that super speed is what started this convo and that's why the focus has been on it, but let's face it, the basic general idea of "full capacity vs in-character" is something that comes up in regards to versatility too so I don't understand why we don't go ahead and clarify that kind of thing too. I mean it derails threads almost as often as how characters use their super speed does. You guys know if we don't that Carver or someone else is going to open another "full capacity vs in-character" with versatility as the focus lol. The thread title itself is generalized so why not just open up the discussion to all aspects of it.

I don't see why it wouldn't account for offense as well as defence. It's just that most superheroes don't throw the first punch, so the focus was on that initial "hero getting attacked by the villain" thing.

As long as it makes sense for the character to do something from what we perceive is their POV, there's no reason why they couldn't do it.

Originally posted by -Pr-
As long as it makes sense for the character to do something from what we perceive is their POV, there's no reason why they couldn't do it.

uh-oh....

Originally posted by leonidas
uh-oh....

I know. I know. But I'm not about to start making rules about what a specific character would or would not do. Even my Superman example wasn't a ruling, but instead how I view why his speed is the way it is.

I mean, people can be wrong, and they will be, but that's their problem.

Spider-Man

We all know through out the canon. JJJ has commissioned Peter Parker for (un-known to him) choreographed photo cells and digital images of Spider-Man getting tagged.

With Peter being paid more for photos where Spider-Man looks bad.

And Peter of course has felt dirty doing this, but he's done it to keep food on the table, to pay Aunt May's Medical Expenses.... to pay his rent.

If you've read A Lot of Spider-Man you know this.

Now... if your experience of Spider-Man is random panels of art posted on a message board or some domain ... where absolutely no one posts any of the dark and gritty less exciting panels before the Pay Per Click Main Event lifted from that particular story: Spidey vs The Villain Who Tagged Me you're not going to notice that the feats you're head over heels in love with are absolute PIS.

For people who've read the story from start to finish and know what the character was doing and why they were doing it.... there is no fun spelling it all out for someone who clearly hasn't read the f****** story.

With DC Characters especially you have got to read the story.

Kalibak btw is a different level fighter on Apokolips than On Earth

There is the New Genesis and Apokolips Non Aggression Treaty Which Covers Earth

So Kalibak fights in such a way so as not to accidentally Kill a Terran.

Darkseid sort of looks the other way every time he Does It... And Kalibak of course knows just where to draw the line.

On Apokolips with No Self Limiting to Preserve The Space Treaty... Kalibak is not the clown he appears to be on Earth.

Re Superman getting tagged pretty much every time Bruce wants to tag him...

Bruce is his friend... and he trusts him with his life.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I know. I know. But I'm not about to start making rules about what a specific character would or would not do. Even my Superman example wasn't a ruling, but instead how I view why his speed is the way it is.

I mean, people can be wrong, and they will be, but that's their problem.

I would also add that if the thread starter doesn't want certain abilities/tactics to be used in their thread, all they have to do is specify such in the OP. Problem solved.

We cannot possibly account for every shred of ridiculous BS that certain people might try to argue in threads. All we can do is make blanket rules/generalizations and hope that everyone is adult enough to understand their purpose.

This post has nothing to do with Leo. He's one of the best in the CbvF and I know his frustration with certain people has limits. That said:

Digi and Pr have most of the basics covered. The rest of the basics get covered in the OP by the thread starter. We all know who the trolls, fanboys and idiots are on KMC. Debate them at your own risk, or use the ignore function. Everybody who's been here long enough knows the rules. And for those people who like to pop in and complain, post on another board. You won't break any hearts by leaving. The CBvF rules have been in place for over a decade. The rules won't be changed just so your fanboy wet dreams can be acted out on KMC. If you want to debate powersets the go to the BZ. Otherwise STFU and be glad KMC is still up and running. Here's a refresher of the rules:

Originally posted by Digi
Debating Format

Rules/Standard Fight Settings
In most cases, the poster who originally set up the versus fight determines the conditions of the fight itself (ex. If a character like Superman is in a thread, it'll be assumed that it's the current version unless mentioned otherwise by the thread starter, the same goes with Thanos without the IG, and so on). However, in the cases where the original poster did not set down any constraints or conditions for the fight, then the match would default to the standard rules below.

The Battle
Due to some confusion, I will highlight this now. Unless otherwise specified in the opening post, the matches are one fight. The use of a character winning 7/10 is just to highlight a percentage or odds. There has never been anything in the rules which states there are 10 separate fights.

Prep time
Neither side receives any notable prep time before the starting bell unless the thread starter specifies it. Neither side may take any offensive or defensive actions before the starting bell. Planning is allowed and powers that are automatic or 'always on' can be up, but actions such as setting up forcefields, taking flight, or consciously activating powers is not. For example, Batman cannot shove together an 'anti-Avengers ray' before the fight.

Prep Addendum
Prep time of 10 minutes = 10 minutes relative to the character. So time manipulations wouldn't count for more time. Say Strange went back in time 2 years before the battle is scheduled to start. His 10 minutes would still be running, so he can't just arbitrarily give himself infinite prep time.

In other words, make prep relative to the character, not to their manipulations of time.


Standard Equipment
Each side starts out with the equipment that they normally and have been shown to consistently carry on them. For example, Daredevil would have his billy-club, but Reed Richards would not have the Ultimate Nullifier.
In a scenario fight, the contestants in whose city/reality the fight takes place are allowed access to any material resources they usually have there or of any team they're active members of, as long as they can reasonably get to them. For example, in a scenario set in the DCU, Green Lantern would have access to equipment in the JLA Watchtower, but not the Titans headquarters.
Beta Ray Bill would not have Scuttlebutt and Batman would not have the Batmobile, unless otherwise noted in the open post.

Basic Knowledge
Each side receives basic knowledge of the other. A good measure of this would be what the general population of the character's homeworld knows. For example, that Superman has a weakness to Kryptonite is general knowledge, but that he's Clark Kent is not.


Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

No outside help
Unless specified otherwise, no contestant may call for outside assistance, even in scenario matches. For example, Captain America cannot call in the Avengers during a fight with Batman.

Leaving the field
Combatants who leave the field of combat on purpose forfeit the match. If they are removed from the arena against their will (being punched, thrown, teleported, etc.) and can make it back under their own power in a reasonable amount of time, then they are still in the fight. Obviously, if a combatant leaves the field and cannot return under their own power, then they have lost.

No Bias Claims
"Batman can beat Thor because he's cooler!" That's an example of how not to debate. We would like to see the rationale behind any claims that one character can beat the other rather than a claim based on popularity and subjective bias.
Also, we insist that all claims be backed up by evidence from canon sources. If you claim that Spiderman is stronger than Superman, then you have to prove it.

No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.

A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).

This includes JLA/Avengers. Canon or not, people just aren't going to agree on it in most cases. Besides, there should be plenty of other comics with which to make your point.

Comics released strictly online or on web sites will not be considered proof in the Comic Book Versus Forum.

An obscure interview given by someone involved in a story arc is not proof to refute feats. Neither is a random post by a supposed writer on a message board, blogs, tweets, etc. There have been too many of these so called interviews which go against what's shown on panel. Especially when there is no dialogue to refute what's happening on panel. Most writers are clear with the intentions of the plot and story arc.

This principle extends to characters with multiple versions, alternate timelines, etc. Unless specified by the thread starter, only current-version canon feats are allowed.

No Mentioning Events of PIS
Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman.

Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.

Concerning Superspeed
It's said that the speed of thought is about 30 m/s.
Note that it's meters per second, not miles
Reference:http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/DavidParizh.shtml
(Now this isn't in stone, if you feel you know something that you believe is better, then go with it).

Amendment:

Concerning the Battlefield
Unless otherwise stated by the thread originator, the standard distance between combatants will be .5 kilometers in line of sight at the onset of battle, and there will be an implied "buzz" to signify the onset of battle. It will be assumed combatants are primed to go at the gun.

Also, all characters, regardless of where the fight takes place, or what universe/medium they are native to, will have full access to their abilities at optimum efficiency as they are depicted in their native universes. It will be assumed that each character fights as they are normally presented regardless of battle locale. This means that, for example, Flash will in fact have SpeedForce abilities if the battle took place in Marvel Manhattan. Battles will always take place on an assumed equal playing field.

Unless otherwise specified in the OP, the default battlefield will be a completely flat and featureless plain that stretches from horizon to horizon, with no mountains, forests, cliffs, valleys, rivers, lakes, etc. The only 'feature' of note is the ground beneath the characters' feet. But as mentioned above: it is still always assumed that a character's base powers are active and working to their optimum efficiency in versus matches, therefore this default battlefield would essentially morph to accommodate the characters' powers when need be.


Concerning Threads
There have been too many thread starters trying to change stipulations once the thread has advanced. This isn't allowed.

There are two things which can happen:
1) If the thread hasn't gone too far, past the first 2-3 pages, then PM a mod to edit the opening post to make the desired changes.

2) The original thread can be closed and a new thread made.

This is to avoid confusion and arguing in a thread. People will read the opening post more than they'll search through a 10 page thread to see where stipulations were changed.

Also, if you make a thread which needs edited due to spelling, grammar, etc then PM a mod for the correction.

Thank you and enjoy.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Clarification of CIS

Ok people, here are the finalised rules as regards PIS, CIS, and everything related to it.

PIS is, as always, off unless the thread starter says it's ON.

CIS, as was said before, is now a more diverse term, but is not as vague as before.

While CIS still exists in the form of characters like Rhino (who are just too stupid to know better), it also exists in one other form.

This is known as Character Inhibited Power. This applies to characters that have intelligence, like the Silver Surfer, Superman, and so on and so forth.

As Bada said:

"It's a self imposed limitation in certain circumstances which there is concern for civilians and buildings for the most part. It's not stupidity, it's a limitation set until the threat exceeds a certain threshold."

What this means is that people like the Surfer and Superman and so on will not use the full extent of their powers if it will endanger civilians. It doesn't, though, mean they will fight like idiots. The character's personality is an integral part of the match and dictates how they will perform. This is the crux of the rules we've come up with. It doesn't come down to powers, it comes down to the man or woman that weilds them.

In accordance with this, several factors come in to play in debates:

The Opponent, Basic Information, the Arena and the Character's Personality and Experience

Those four are key.

Example:

If Martian Manhunter fights say, Juggernaut.

MM doesn't personally know Juggernaut (Opponent). So he has Basic Information. This is categorised as being what the general public would know about the Juggernaut. It goes by averages. If that average man or woman on the street knows that Juggernaut is super strong, then MM knows. The average man or woman doesn't know, however, that the Juggernaut is weak against psionics. J'onn would approach with caution, not knowing whether Juggernaut was in his weight class, and not knowing the full extent of the man's powers.

However. If Martian Manhunter went up against Amazo, he would know to go for broke right at the start, because he KNOWS Amazo (Personality and Experience). He will use his speed, his strength, his shapeshifting. This is because if he knows what it takes to bring down Amazo, or he believes his standard attacks won't work. If J'onn was fighting Juggernaut, there would come a point when he would realise that normal attacks won't work, and would up his game. Any character that doesn't suffer from Rhino-esque stupidity is capable of this. Even with this, though, the Arena comes in to play. If civilians are in danger, J'onn won't shapeshift in to a fire breathing dragon. Juggernaut on the other hand doesn't care, so wouldn't hesitate to toss cars and trucks full of civilians at the Martian.

Examples:

Thor knows he can't out-brawl Hulk, so uses exotic powers sooner than he would against the likes of Superman, as Superman is an unknown to him.

Superman would go all out against Doomsday or Despero because he knows how powerful they are. Against the Hulk, he's going to take a few punches before realising he'll have to use something rather than slugging it out. He won't bathe the street in heat vision either, because there are civilians nearby.

It ALL comes down to the CHARACTER, not the POWERSET.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't see why it wouldn't account for offense as well as defence. It's just that most superheroes don't throw the first punch, so the focus was on that initial "hero getting attacked by the villain" thing.

As long as it makes sense for the character to do something from what we perceive is their POV, there's no reason why they couldn't do it.
Originally posted by Galan007


I would also add that if the thread starter doesn't want certain abilities/tactics to be used in their thread, all they have to do is specify such in the OP. Problem solved.

We cannot possibly account for every shred of ridiculous BS that certain people might try to argue in threads. All we can do is make blanket rules/generalizations and hope that everyone is adult enough to understand their purpose.
Well I seem to be ruffling feathers that will get me in trouble again so this will be my last post on the matter, but I gotta say that I'm still confused as all get out. Nothing seems to be clarified other than characters with superspeed will be unhittable against threatening characters without superspeed because they'll use more common sense than anyone else. Seriously, the rules are SO generalized that's it can be quit difficult for opposing parties to see eye to eye on the basics because as I mentioned before, speed is the only thing that's being given attention in regards to clarification. I'm not saying that anyone should go to the trouble of explaining every potential scenario, but IMO giving or two more examples OTHER than speed would go a long way towards avoiding a lot of the bickering over the basics. As it stands, the rules are exceptionally subjective and open to interpretation EXCEPT in regards to super speed, so of course there's going to be a lot of confusion and bickering over everything else.

Anyway that's my two cents, you guys make of it what you will.

At the end of the day, we are debating over the hypothetical situation of who would win between two fictional characters, and now, we are debating over how we should debate those debates...

I propose we can't correctly have this debate until we establish firm rules. First off, Leo has to establish whether or not we can consider Poster Induced Stupidity. Can we adequately discuss whether or not we are debating "full-capacity" if we are complaining that we are using one kind of power as the most common example? Finally, in conclusion, I rest my case. smoke

Now that speed is like, so last week...

Let's debate intelligence.

I think versatility plus intelligence should be discussed. So, has a rule been made that we debate speed as the first line of defense and can not use on panel evidence against this? Too much to read through.

Originally posted by carver9
I think versatility plus intelligence should be discussed. So, has a rule been made that we debate speed as the first line of defense and can not use on panel evidence against this? Too much to read through.

I think you should read at least the last page. They're vital forum rules, after all.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think you should read at least the last page. They're vital forum rules, after all.

Ahhhhhh, gotcha. With that said, this style of debating goes completely against the way I debate. Holla.

Originally posted by carver9
Ahhhhhh, gotcha. With that said, this style of debating goes completely against the way I debate. Holla.

I genuinely don't understand your post....

Why is there a holla?

@Bada, I haven't read your pm yet but I'll get to it shortly.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Well I seem to be ruffling feathers that will get me in trouble again so this will be my last post on the matter, but I gotta say that I'm still confused as all get out. Nothing seems to be clarified other than characters with superspeed will be unhittable against threatening characters without superspeed because they'll use more common sense than anyone else. Seriously, the rules are SO generalized that's it can be quit difficult for opposing parties to see eye to eye on the basics because as I mentioned before, speed is the only thing that's being given attention in regards to clarification. I'm not saying that anyone should go to the trouble of explaining every potential scenario, but IMO giving or two more examples OTHER than speed would go a long way towards avoiding a lot of the bickering over the basics. As it stands, the rules are exceptionally subjective and open to interpretation EXCEPT in regards to super speed, so of course there's going to be a lot of confusion and bickering over everything else.

Anyway that's my two cents, you guys make of it what you will.

Gonna be honest... I'm not sure where the lines of communication are breaking down here. Speed was only used as the example because it's the one thing that gets brought up the most of any aspect of superpowers on this forum. Any character with reasonable experience using a superpower will be believed to be capable of using it to a reasonable extent if it helps them win.

So now, I have a question:

Why would you create a fight in which one character has a distinct advantage over another, and not use the "equalize speed" condition that others would?

-You wouldn't put an Olympic athlete in a weight-lifting competition with The Thing or Colossus.
-You wouldn't put a person with two judo classes in a fight with Lady Shiva.
-You wouldn't expect me and my IT background to make me as capable of inventing shit as Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne.

Is there something about speed that makes it special? I don't want to seem aggressive or dismissive, but if I am, and that's where the "ruffling" comment comes from, then I am sorry. I'm also sorry if I'm genuinely missing something too.

Originally posted by carver9
I think versatility plus intelligence should be discussed. So, has a rule been made that we debate speed as the first line of defense and can not use on panel evidence against this? Too much to read through.

No, that's not what it said at all.

I mean, we have threads where WW is put up against other MAs...and the first thing the OP says is 'strength' or 'stats' equalised. Because we acknowledge strength is lopsided.

We don't really say it for other powers because it becomes nonsensical. 'Surfer vs Wolverine; energy blasts equalised'. Sounds stupid.

Speed is focussed on, because it is the one power that really levels the playing field. One guy could be the greatest MAer, with matter manip powers, laser eyebeams, hydrokinesis, zombie summoning, whatever....but the other guy will always move faster than him. In that scenario, speed gives the 2nd guy a great chance at winning. 1st character of course wants to win, and he might summon zombie armies then transmute them all into Galactuses.

It sucks, but that's how it is. If not a fan, then equalise, just like we equalise other stats.

Edit: we even had all of this pretty much written, just not explicit in the rules.

Check the section on prep time:


Add that to the Full Capacity rule (which has been quoted extensively so I wouldn't).

Add THAT to the PIS rule:

To the CIS rule:



And FINALLY, to the Battlefield rule:


So, we have multiple rulings on top of each other, saying that PIS is defined as lesser powered guys being a match/challenge for higher powered (in this case, speed). With a literal example of the Flash. That CIS is only because they are that dumb. That they arrive on the field 'ready to fight'. That their powers are always on.

I guess it just needs more explicitness.

Edit edit: and then add CIP on top:



'Oh noes! This giant raging monster with six one metre long swords out of each hand is coming for me! Better tank dem punches!!!'

i think what goob is saying is pretty simple--if speed guys use 'logic' to avoid hits (at whatever level of speed they are 'logically' assigned based on....'logic') then why wouldn't versatile guys (ss, firestorm, etc...) 'logically' use their abilities to, say, start every fight intangible? just look at the current bz. why doesn't thor use his huge array of powers at the start of a fight? why is it different (less logical?) for these guys to use their powers, than it is for someone to use speed? really, there is no difference.

the thing with logic is that we're using it, then.....applying an arbitrary ceiling on where we/the characters STOP using it. why cap their speed? it's not logical. why not use MORE powers? that is also illogical. or maybe one poster sees one level as logical, another sees another. maybe one poster thinks it's logical for ss to start every battle intangible, another doesn't.

this is the reason i was suggesting a uniform baseline to determine these things--the comics. without some common ground the issue will continue to be blurry. but, we've survived this long, sooooo.... /shrug

ds, still not sure what you're looking for in regards to intelligence. how do you see it being...neutered now? what can intelligence add to a one on one battle?

Should intelligence be capped? If I gave Supes a week prep and he can do everything in his abilities to win, would he do it?

Originally posted by -Pr-


Is there something about speed that makes it special? I don't want to seem aggressive or dismissive, but if I am, and that's where the "ruffling" comment comes from, then I am sorry. I'm also sorry if I'm genuinely missing something too.
For some reason, speed out of all stats/abilities seems to be treated differently.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17

I just don't understand why when character A moves at lightspeed a handful of times and is a far departure from other speed showings is gospel when compared to him lifting/destroying planets through strength(far departure from majority) is automatically high end.
This is a generalization by the way and is more complicated, but one should get the picture.
This goes for any character.

Just an observation.

This is literally Silver Surfer vs nearly anyone

Originally posted by leonidas
i think what goob is saying is pretty simple--if speed guys use 'logic' to avoid hits (at whatever level of speed they are 'logically' assigned based on....'logic') then why wouldn't versatile guys (ss, firestorm, etc...) 'logically' use their abilities to, say, start every fight intangible? just look at the current bz. why doesn't thor use his huge array of powers at the start of a fight? why is it different (less logical?) for these guys to use their powers, than it is for someone to use speed? really, there is no difference.

the thing with logic is that we're using it, then.....applying an arbitrary ceiling on where we/the characters STOP using it. why cap their speed? it's not logical. why not use MORE powers? that is also illogical. or maybe one poster sees one level as logical, another sees another. maybe one poster thinks it's logical for ss to start every battle intangible, another doesn't.

this is the reason i was suggesting a uniform baseline to determine these things--the comics. without some common ground the issue will continue to be blurry. but, we've survived this long, sooooo.... /shrug

ds, still not sure what you're looking for in regards to intelligence. how do you see it being...neutered now? what can intelligence add to a one on one battle?

Sent a PM.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Should intelligence be capped? If I gave Supes a week prep and he can do everything in his abilities to win, would he do it?

The only thing that, generally, should cap anything is how far a character can or will go to win, imo.

Lex Luthor would take more extreme measures than, say, Peter Parker.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
For some reason, speed out of all stats/abilities seems to be treated differently.



Just an observation.

Would you mind clarifying what you mean, as I think I get you, but I'm not sure.

Originally posted by leonidas
i think what goob is saying is pretty simple--if speed guys use 'logic' to avoid hits (at whatever level of speed they are 'logically' assigned based on....'logic') then why wouldn't versatile guys (ss, firestorm, etc...) 'logically' use their abilities to, say, start every fight intangible? just look at the current bz. why doesn't thor use his huge array of powers at the start of a fight? why is it different (less logical?) for these guys to use their powers, than it is for someone to use speed? really, there is no difference.

the thing with logic is that we're using it, then.....applying an arbitrary ceiling on where we/the characters STOP using it. why cap their speed? it's not logical. why not use MORE powers? that is also illogical. or maybe one poster sees one level as logical, another sees another. maybe one poster thinks it's logical for ss to start every battle intangible, another doesn't.

this is the reason i was suggesting a uniform baseline to determine these things--the comics. without some common ground the issue will continue to be blurry. but, we've survived this long, sooooo.... /shrug

ds, still not sure what you're looking for in regards to intelligence. how do you see it being...neutered now? what can intelligence add to a one on one battle? Thing is, not even comic books seem to have a uniform standard in how they treat the mindsets of most characters, which still leaves room for ambiguity... Especially when we start talking about characters who have hundreds/thousands of appearances under their belt.

As an example: you might think Surfer will start the battle acting a certain way based on the comics you've read. I might think he'd start the battle off an entirely different way based on the comics I've read... Then we get into this same discussion yet again.

So as Pr said: if you pit someone against Surfer who is unable to cope with his versatility in a forum battle, that's on you. Same with pitting someone against Flash who can't cope with his speed. Or Juggernaut's strength, or Xavier's TP, etc. etc.

Originally posted by -Pr-

Would you mind clarifying what you mean, as I think I get you, but I'm not sure.
Sure.

I think in general, speed seems to be played up more than any other stat or ability a superhero may have.

Let's take character A for example. He's fast. He has a range of showings ranging from speed of sound, all the way to wtf ftl omgzz! A large majority of his showings seem to be around low mach to high mach. There are even statements of him unable to go past those speeds let alone light speed. But then, u get those occasions in which phukk logic and he's like god of speed level ftlllllllll. "Yep, his standard is ftl." Anything below is a low showing or pis/cis.

Now let's take char B. He's strong. He has a range of going skyscraper and mountain punching/lifting all the way to planet destroying/moving... And even sometimes beyond. A large majority seem to be around battleship moving and city/mountain lifting. There are statements of him unable to move or destroy anything past a mountain. Then we get the occasional wtf did he just destroy planets simply from shockwaves wtfzorz? The general feeling from most seem to relegate this char back to skyscraper tossing instead of planet sneezing. It's almost like an automatic response. "high end etc..."

This goes for any stat whether it be durability, damage soak, versatility, etc...

just my opinion and a general observation. Then again i could be wrong on what I think is the general observation of others.