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beyonder from secret wars 2. yellow aliens from grant morrison's animal man.

Trano and Zaarn win.

yellow aliens

reasons?

Galan hasn't really realized how ethnic they are.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

reasons?
Well, Stan Lee's (TOAA's TOAA) visage was portrayed on panel bowing to Beyonder,
and Shooter (TOAA in SWI-II)
was part of Beyonder's discovery (the drop of water being the infinite Marvelverse)

... but these guys are yellow, so that ups the ante.

On a serious note, ...

these aliens don't belong in a vs match unless they're up against the same kind of 4th wall aura.

Like Byrne's She-Hulk who'll wipe her ass with em.

Or Dr Doom (kidnapped Stan Lee) Black Panther (manipulating comic panels) and several others.

Who are the yellow aliens.

Yellow Aliens.

That's who they are.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
reasons? Trano & Zaarn act as the direct agents of DC's RW staff -- the implication is that *only* the metatextual personification of the Supreme Being(as Morrison was in those issues) is beyond them.

They have some sort of power over(or at the very least total comprehension of) the Overvoid/Source... Which is beyond the story all together.

They seem to be fully omniscient, and know exactly how the stories are going to unfold... Likely because the Supreme Being allows them to read the script itself.

They can literally unmake a character and their entire story at will(narrative and all.)

Originally posted by Galan007
Trano & Zaarn act as the direct agents of DC's RW staff -- the implication is that *only* the metatextual personification of the Supreme Being(as Morrison was in those issues) is beyond them.
I don't see this as a universal quantifier of power. Because, like Mr Master pointed out, there are so many instances of character breaking the forth wall. She-Hulk even killed her own writer, didn't she?

Not to mention that the Writer (character) was later retconned and killed. So it's just another fiction character that just happens to look and act like the writer.

https://i.imgur.com/y2n43Adm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/3SlQBKzm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/bafN9XZm.jpg

Morrison even agreed with the interviewer when the interviewer pointed out that his character had died.

- Source.

Originally posted by Galan007
They seem to be fully omniscient, and know exactly how the stories are going to unfold... Likely because the Supreme Being allows them to read the script itself.
They're certainly not omniscient, since there were things that were not immediately known to them.

For instance they chose to review Animal Man's origin, to better understand what has going on.

https://i.imgur.com/r1FF5e8m.jpg

Even then they couldn't make sense of it.

https://i.imgur.com/7oYt0gsm.jpg

And before meeting up with Animal Man they wondered if he'd remember them.

https://i.imgur.com/dmd1lKNm.jpg

As for their power. They're cosmic, no doubt about that, but are they as powerful as Beyonder was back in Secret Wars II? I doubt it.

They were unable to stabilize Animal Man's origin, and actually needed him to do it for them.

https://i.imgur.com/DaxaHdmm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/Mc0SxG2m.jpg

This is something I see Beyonder doing with the snap of his fingers.

Originally posted by Galan007
They can literally unmake a character and their entire story at will(narrative and all.)
How's that different from, for instance, the Ultimate Nullifier unmaking things? Visually it's done differently, but the result is practically the same.

Originally posted by Astner
I don't see this as a universal quantifier of power. Because, like Mr Master pointed out, there are so many instances of character breaking the forth wall. She-Hulk even killed her own writer, didn't she?

Not to mention that the Writer (character) was later retconned and killed. So it's just another fiction character that just happens to look and act like the writer.

https://i.imgur.com/y2n43Adm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/3SlQBKzm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/bafN9XZm.jpg That was a completely different writer's perspective of the Supreme Being avatar from Animal Man. It was basically Ostrander bashing Morrison.

But in the Animal Man issues themselves(which is what the OP specified), the Morrison avatar WAS the very definition of a metatextual Supreme Being in comic book form. Surely I don't need to post scans, right?

Originally posted by Astner
They're certainly not omniscient, since there were things that were not immediately known to them. Yeah, I suppose omniscient isn't the best word.

They are, however, privy to the fundamental elements of the story itself, and do seem to know how the story will play out:
https://i.imgur.com/XjwlVJ8.jpg

That's all I was getting at.

Originally posted by Astner
As for their power. They're cosmic, no doubt about that, but are they as powerful as Beyonder was back in Secret Wars II? I doubt it. As mentioned, these were intended to be the direct agents of DC's real world staff. As such, only Morrison himself was implied to have any power over them:
http://i.imgur.com/dMy3wUt.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/uH9e3FG.jpg

Trano & Zaarn are fully metatextual, fourth wall-shattering beings -- that is literally their fundamental nature as characters. As such, they're only getting beaten if the Morrison avatar writes it into their story -- no one else is really 'above' them, imo. Now y'all can bring up She-Hulk and Doom slapping around writer avatars in a few Marvel books if you want... But it's not the same thing at all(I know it; you know it.)

Anywho, for all his massive power, Beyonder is still just a 'normal' comic book character, in that he still operates within the the fourth wall confines of a basic story. Trano & Zaarn are obviously not 'restricted' in such a way -- they run around in the Overvoid itself(a place entirely beyond the concept of 'story'.)

They really shouldn't be used in vs. threads for this very reason. Metatextual beings like this are ridiculous to try and argue against.

Originally posted by Astner
How's that different from, for instance, the Ultimate Nullifier unmaking things? Visually it's done differently, but the result is practically the same. The fact that they're essentially acting as the hands of DC's real world staff is what sets their capacity for erasure apart from something like the UN, imo.

Metafiction is still just fiction. Going back to Animal Man #26, there's no actual interaction between the real writer and the character, the interaction is between two fictional characters (one of which is a self insert for the writer).

Breaking the forth wall, has never been a meaningful display of power. You can argue that Morrison did it with a more consistent approach to power, but no matter how many layers of metafiction are implemented the characters are never going to leap off the page. I'm not denying what these characters have been shown capable of, but I'm denying the legitimacy of extrapolating what they've been shown to do to something beyond the abilities of all 'normal' fictional characters, especially when said characters have displayed power and abilities on a grander scale.

Originally posted by Astner
Metafiction is still just fiction. Going back to Animal Man #26, there's no actual interaction between the real writer and the character, the interaction is between two fictional characters (one of which is a self insert for the writer). For all intents and purposes, that character was Morrison. He made his intent crystal clear here:

https://i.imgur.com/MdhG47Y.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NeKJ7ZD.jpg


Morrison's brand of metafiction is undoubtedly much different than most other comic book writers'.

Originally posted by Astner
Breaking the forth wall, has never been a meaningful display of power. You can argue that Morrison did it with a more consistent approach to power, but no matter how many layers of metafiction are implemented the characters are never going to leap off the page. I'm not denying what these characters have been shown capable of, but I'm denying the legitimacy of extrapolating what they've been shown to do to something beyond the abilities of all 'normal' fictional characters, especially when said characters have displayed power and abilities on a grander scale. That's just it. Trano & Zaarn aren't superior simply because they can break the fourth wall. They are superior by virtue of being the direct 'agents/hands' of DC's metatextual Supreme Being(ie. the real world staff.) As mentioned above, the actual comic book writer is the only being with power/authority over them, as they transcend the conventional concept of 'story' all together... That much is further evident by the fact that they can just chill in the Overvoid/Source without issue(a place where even an asininely powerful cosmic being like Mandrakk was instantly destroyed upon initial contact.)

...And regardless of how hyper-powerful Beyonder was, his power/authority doesn't supersede that of the real world staff. Ergo, how can he possibly defeat Trano & Zaarn?

That is the problem inherent in using meta beings like this in versus threads.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's who they are.

Well I know that.

I think Beyonder still has more power. He could of erased the entire 616

^^ more like the entire Marvel creation aside from himself.

As for the aliens being different than She-Hulk:

It's the exact same thing imo,
drawings acting within comic book pages, no matter the idiocy implied,
only She-Hulk's feat was greater. The greatest feat of all time truly.

Any 4th wall breaker that can slap, intimidate, dominate RW staff avatars can match or beat these two.

Byrne's She-Hulk stomps though.

What did she Hulk do again?

Originally posted by Galan007
For all intents and purposes, that character was Morrison. He made his intent crystal clear here:

https://i.imgur.com/MdhG47Y.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NeKJ7ZD.jpg


Morrison's brand of metafiction is undoubtedly much different than most other comic book writers'.

That's just it. Trano & Zaarn aren't superior simply because they can break the fourth wall. They are superior by virtue of being the direct 'agents/hands' of DC's metatextual Supreme Being(ie. the real world staff.) As mentioned above, the actual comic book writer is the only being with power/authority over them, as they transcend the conventional concept of 'story' all together... That much is further evident by the fact that they can just chill in the Overvoid/Source without issue(a place where even an asininely powerful cosmic being like Mandrakk was instantly destroyed upon initial contact.)

...And regardless of how hyper-powerful Beyonder was, his power/authority doesn't supersede that of the real world staff. Ergo, how can he possibly defeat Trano & Zaarn?

That is the problem inherent in using meta beings like this in versus threads. makes sense,i didnt realize how metafictional the aliens are. pretty hard to argue against them.

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
What did she Hulk do again?

Tore the page she was on and burnt it.

Similar to Lobo.

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
What did she Hulk do again? she used to break the 4th wall all the time back in the old sensational shehulk series and talk with her writers and artists. she was alot like deadpool back then. dont know why goofy stuff she did matters here though?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Tore the page she was on and burnt it.

Similar to Lobo.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
she was alot like deadpool back then. dont know why goofy stuff she did matters here though?

It's typically a means of lowballing/downplaying.

"She-Hulk, Doom, Deadpool, Lobo, Ambush Bug, etc. have all broken the fourth wall in a hysterical fashion, therefore the Yellow Aliens aren't really that impressive."

But again, if you think the outlier hijinks those characters have preformed is even remotely comparable to what was transpiring in the Animal Man issues, then you need to sorely revisit them(most of us realize there are varying degrees of metafiction, and it doesn't get any greater than Morrison's brand.) Moreover, simple fourth wall-breakage is NOT what puts Trano & Zaarn on such a high level(as I've already said.) The fact that they are the direct agents/hands of DC's real world writer, and as such no one but the real world writer has power/authority over them, is what makes them so damn uber... That literally IS their fundamental role.

They are as 'meta' as it gets. Their ability to break the fourth wall is just a bonus.

Metatexual characters should generally be above everyone else.

Originally posted by BrolyBlack

What did she Hulk do again?
She killed TOAA (the Writer and the Artist)

... not silly 'agents' of the RW writers, the actual writer and artist himself.

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/41189154_S1.jpg

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/41189155_S2.jpg

---------------------------------------------

John Byrne never wrote another She-Hulk book again.

Regarding her line, he was dead.
Originally posted by Mr Master

Any 4th wall breaker that can slap, intimidate, dominate RW staff avatars

can match or beat these two.

Byrne's She-Hulk stomps though.

I agree. Just like the Aliens aren't really RW anything.

But if we do decide to go there ... She-Hulk rules!

Byrne's She-Hulk is the most powerful 4th wall involved cat in history.

Basically YA>>She-Hulk>>Beyonder.

Originally posted by Galan007
For all intents and purposes, that character was Morrison. He made his intent crystal clear here:

https://i.imgur.com/MdhG47Ym.jpg https://i.imgur.com/NeKJ7ZDm.jpg

Morrison's brand of metafiction is undoubtedly much different than most other comic book writers'.
No, it was just another fictional character. That's how he could be killed off in Suicide Squad #58.
Originally posted by Astner
https://i.imgur.com/y2n43Adm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/3SlQBKzm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/bafN9XZm.jpg
It doesn't matter that he was written by a different writer at the time because because most comic book characters are not the product of the works of a single writer.

And if we look at the DC title Flex Mentallo, also written by Grant Morrison a year after he wrote Animal Man #12, the story is dealing with three levels of reality.

The comic world of Flex Mentallo, the "real" world of his author Wally Sage (another Grant Morrison insert, like "the writer", and the "hyper-real" world of the Legion of Legions.

https://i.imgur.com/eo9jceQl.jpg

The panel above features Lord Limbo of the Legion of Legions, and Wally Sage as a child and an adult.

So my question to you is, is it reasonable to assume that these meta-metafictional characters are even more powerful than the yellow aliens, the writer or any other "normal" fictional character or "normal" metafictional character?

And to add. He was an actual being inside two different multiverses that could erase one without any recourse on himself.

He could have wiped it all out and made a new Marvel universe if he wanted with zero consequences to himself. And he was an actual character not a writer or writers will/avatar.

In the Marvel Omniverse, yes.

Originally posted by Astner
No, it was just another fictional character. That's how he could be killed off in Suicide Squad #58. You're missing the point, I think? The character from Suicide Squad was no longer intended to be the literal Supreme Being avatar he was in Animal Man. Ostrander was basically shitting on Morrison's concept.

The stips of this thread, however, refer exclusively to the Animal Man issues. And in those issues, the Morrison avatar was indeed intended to be the analogue of his real world self. Hence this dialogue:

https://i.imgur.com/NeKJ7ZD.jpg

You can't use Ostrander's rendition of Morrison from an entirely different issue to try and diminish what Morrison's avatar represented under Morrison himself. That's like me using showings from F4 #319 to try and diminish pre-retcon Beyonder.

Doesn't work that way in versus threads.

Originally posted by Astner
So my question to you is, is it reasonable to assume that these meta-metafictional characters are even more powerful than the yellow aliens, the writer or any other "normal" fictional character or "normal" metafictional character? Trano & Zaarn were intended to be the direct agents/hands of DC's real world writers, and as such, no one but DC's real world writers had power over them. So imo, the only way a character could 'out-meta' them is if they were on par with the Morrison avatar from Animal Man. IOW, someone equivalent to the actual writers themselves.

That being said, while I do enjoy discussions on metafiction(especially if you'd like to dissect some of Morrison's other work), I'm unsure what it has to do with the topic at hand..? Beyonder certainly isn't a metafictional being. /shrug

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree. Just like the Aliens aren't really RW anything. No one said the Aliens are RW anything.

Originally posted by Astner
No, it was just another fictional character. That's how he could be killed off in Suicide Squad #58.

It doesn't matter that he was written by a different writer at the time because because most comic book characters are not the product of the works of a single writer.

And if we look at the DC title Flex Mentallo, also written by Grant Morrison a year after he wrote Animal Man #12, the story is dealing with three levels of reality.

The comic world of Flex Mentallo, the "real" world of his author Wally Sage (another Grant Morrison insert, like "the writer", and the "hyper-real" world of the Legion of Legions.

https://i.imgur.com/eo9jceQl.jpg

The panel above features Lord Limbo of the Legion of Legions, and Wally Sage as a child and an adult.

So my question to you is, is it reasonable to assume that these meta-metafictional characters are even more powerful than the yellow aliens, the writer or any other "normal" fictional character or "normal" metafictional character?

Arguably, there's no such entity as 'Pre retcon Beyonder'.

That's just a forum construction to make sense of his wildly different power levels.

And so it is here. We're only using the YAs from a specific run, where they're pretty specifically of a certain power level.

I'm not sure if some posters are half-assed in their trolling, or they legit didn't understand the story.

Grant Morrison in Animal Man was literally the Grant Morrison from real life representing himself in the story, from our real world . Thus Galan's scan above, explicitly mentioning the fact that Animal Man can never get into our world.

Grant also mentions that he's not the only writer, but is just in charge of the Animal Man issues, and somebody else is writing him in the other comic books:
https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t/41194635_NUSNQu5.jpg

And at the end he thanks his editors for their help in writing the comic book:
https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t/41194640_Fw0TqQD.jpg

Animal Man broke the fourth wall because Grant wrote him to break the fourth wall. He even wrote Animal Man to beat him up :

https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t/41194633_U73Ps5Q.jpg https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t/41194634_Mwhs1K7.jpg


Originally posted by Galan007
You're missing the point, I think? The character from Suicide Squad was no longer intended to be the literal Supreme Being avatar he was in Animal Man. Ostrander was basically shitting on Morrison's concept.


The fact that other writers can then take what he represented himself with and mess up with it doesn't change the fact that, while he was the writer of the comic book, what was drawn on the page was the actual Grant Morrison - in real life - with all the control over the story from our world that it entails.

Originally posted by Astner
It has to do with the relation between fiction and metafiction you're purposing, that metafictional characters should be treated as if they were on a separate level of power from "normal" comic characters. As I've stated repeatedly: Trano & Zaarn are above most other conventional characters because they were the direct agents/hands of DC's real world writers, and as such, no one but DC's real world writers had power over them:

http://i.imgur.com/dMy3wUt.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/AuXf3ex.jpg


It's not like I'm trying to say that they only win 'cuz metafiction'. They win because per that story, the only being(s) above them are DC's real world staff.

Originally posted by Astner
Continuing that line of reasoning in Grant Morrison's Flex Mentallo, that would mean that the hyper-real heroes from the Legion of Legions are beyond writers. Which I'd think you'd agree on is an absurd notion. This is an entirely different discussion pertaining to Morrison's take on metafiction, though. Varying 'degrees' of metafiction, etc.

It doesn't at all pertain to Trano & Zaarn vs. pre-retcon Beyonder.

Originally posted by Astner
I'm not following you here, are you arguing that Grant Morrison physically interacted with Animal Man? How could you possibly understand this the complete opposite? That's honestly quite baffling.

The point is that Grant Morrison couldn't physically interact with Animal Man, since he was in the real world, in which Animal Man can't exist - being, shockingly, a comic book character. This was made abundantly clear, and Galan even gave you some help with a cropped up panel:

https://i.imgur.com/NeKJ7ZD.jpg

So Grant represented himself on the page, and interacted with Animal Man - and by interaction it means that he was in charge of everything that was going in the comic book, including what Animal was saying or doing, because he was writing the script -- in our world.



Mxy literally threatened up actual photos of real-world people:
https://i.imgur.com/inVunzT.jpg

..but we know he did that because the real-world writer wrote the script to make him do that. The same way the drawn real-world Grant Morrison made Animal Man beat him .

All fiction on the page is there because of the writer - including the meta-fiction itself.

Originally posted by Astner
Of course it does, because the Wally (the writer of Flex Mentallo) is the exact same self-insert of Morrison as in Animal Man's "the writer," and within Flex Mentallo there are beings beyond him.

This is important, because the essence of your argument for why you think the yellow aliens would defeat classic Beyonder is because they're "more real," and not because they've better feats or because they're implied to be more powerful. Are Animal Man and Flex Mentallo the same story?

If not, then I fail to see how this is relevent to the discussion at hand, and/or how it changes anything I have said..? Within the pages of Animal Man, the Morrison avatar was as supreme as it can possibly get, as he literally was the avatar of Grant Morrison himself -- the being who actually wrote the issues and everything that transpired in them.

...And the Aliens were Morrison's direct agents, and thus could only be affected by him.

Originally posted by Galan007
Are Animal Man and Flex Mentallo the same story?

If not, then I fail to see how this is relevent to the discussion at hand, and/or how it changes anything I have said..?
Because I shouldn't have to make a new thread about Morrison's Lord Limbo vs the Writer to prove this point.

You have to be consistent in how metafiction should be meshed with the cosmic. You can't say that Beyonder would lose against the Yellow Aliens, because they're agents for the Writer, but then argue Bryne's She-Hulk killing her own writer doesn't count in a future Beyonder vs. She-Hulk thread.

Originally posted by Galan007
...And the Aliens were Morrison's direct agents, and thus could only be affected by him.
The aliens were certainly affected by the events of the story.

https://i.imgur.com/3KOiA4Dl.jpg

Originally posted by Astner
Because you said was.

Are you trolling me? This was my full quote:

Are you cropping out quotes to troll me, or just to hide the absurd position you've taken? Because I don't have time for this shit.

The Grant Morrison that appeared in the Animal Man comic was the writer himself saying:

"Hello, I exist in the real world. I control everything from that you can see on this page. This is my last issue. Thank you to my real world editors for bearing with me"

That's vastly different than " just as every writer speaks through every character they're writing" -- since the characters they're writing aren't, by definition, themselves talking from the real world to their fictional comic book about the total control they have over the story.

How could you possibly say something that stupid?

Originally posted by Astner
In this case, the staff decided to take some funny pictures, Photoshop them, and crop in a hand-drawn comic character. It's still a fictional story. And just like when She-Hulk killed her writer, there are no sensible implications of power that you can draw from that. Yes, because a fictional character can't beat up people in the real world. On the other hand, real world writers can shown that he can write himself talking and interacting to his comic book.

How could this possibly be that hard to understand?

Originally posted by Astner
Because I shouldn't have to make a new thread about Morrison's Lord Limbo vs the Writer to prove this point.

You have to be consistent in how metafiction should be meshed with the cosmic. You can't say that Beyonder would lose against the Yellow Aliens, because they're agents for the Writer, but then argue Bryne's She-Hulk killing her own writer doesn't count in a future Beyonder vs. She-Hulk thread. Geesh, you're moving goalposts all over the place.

You cannot use a completely separate comic book series(Flex Mentallo), published by a divergent comic book company(Vertigo), to try and diminish the clear intent of the issues in question(Animal Man.) What's next? Posting metafictional showings from 'Annihilator' and 'Nameless'(both of which were also written by Morrison in different companies) to try and legitimize your stance here..?

We're discussing the issues of ANIMAL MAN exclusively... And IN said issues, the intent/role of Morrison's avatar couldn't have possibly been clearer. Metafiction that Morrison has written in other series' doesn't change that.

Originally posted by Astner
The aliens were certainly affected by the events of the story.

https://i.imgur.com/3KOiA4Dl.jpg Okay? I'm not saying that the story itself cannot have any impact on the Aliens whatsoever. As mentioned ad nauseam, I am just saying that the real world writer is the only being with true power/authority over them. ie. only Morrison himself can truly muck with the Aliens -- anyone below writer-level cannot.

We're not talking about cartoony outliers or w/e(like the aforementioned She-Hulk examples.) Where the Aliens are concerned, they are literally the direct agents/hands of the real world writer. That IS their fundamental status/role as characters -- that IS their defined powerset.

Originally posted by Astner
That was what you said in the beginning of your post, which you later contradicted at the end of your post, which was what I quoted. Because that's what I found confusing. Contradiction? You thought I said that real life Grant Morrison.....in flesh and blood....did...what....teleport himself in the comic book....even though I already said real world people can't...exist...physically in comic books....in the beginning of the same post?

Astner, I refuse to think you were confused about this. So please, stop the trolling.

If you really feel lonely and want attention, just PM me. But stop with this shit.

Originally posted by Astner
Suppose that Animal Man instead met a bearded man calling himself God, who similarly would explain that he controls all of Animal Man's thoughts, feelings and history.

This "God" would be equal to the Writer (character) in terms of power, in my opinion. Because the metafictional element of it doesn't matter. Just like when She-Hulk killed her own writer. I don't need to suppose anything - stop with the retarded red herrings - first Flex Mentallo, and now "BUT WHAT IF HE DIDN"T SAY HE WAS GRANT MORRISON? WHAT IF HE DIDN'T SAY HE WAS FROM OUR WORLD? WHAT THEN?". Then he would be just another fictional character, 'God', who is not the writer from the real world. What was actually put in the comic book was real life Grant Morrison illustrating himself within a comic book all the while explicitly saying that he exists in the real world and this is the last issue he is writing, saying goodbye to all the real world editors and collaborators.

Troll and deflect.
Troll and deflect.

It's getting boring, my chummy little buddy.

Bottom-line is, any and all penciled ink in comic books is subject to the writer/artist.

The Aliens have no power outside the comics they've appeared in.

Just like She-Hulk was GOD of her own run (50 issues) only within that specific arc.

The Aliens' power in Marvel would be gauged upon what they actually did on panel in DC,
vs what they represented in the 'meta-textual' whateva concept.

Therefore, they would get wtfstomped by even post-retcon Beyonder.

Just like all-mighty Mxy in Marvel, was stalemated by the Impossible Man.
In Marvel comics, that's his equal. In fact, the IM was literally a "rip-off" of Mxy. (stated on panel)

ya just to clarify i did mean the aliens from morrisons run on animal man specifically.

but i didnt know how op the aliens were going in. beyonders op too but just in a different way. this is like comparing apples to oranges. last time i use meta characters in a thread thats for sure lol.

==========================

She-Hulk effortlessly murdered John Byrne's avatar ...

... who was the equivalent to Grant Morrison's in Animal Man.

btw, Unless I'm missing something in the scans presented,
the Aliens are just as cartoony as She-Hulk. (ink is ink)

Originally posted by Mr Master
Bottom-line is, any and all penciled ink in comic books is subject to the writer/artist.

The Aliens have no power outside the comics they've appeared in.

Just She-Hulk was GOD of her own run only within that specific arc.

The Aliens' power in Marvel would be gauged upon what they actually did on panel in DC,
vs what they represented in the 'meta-textual' whateva concept.

Therefore, they would get wtfstomped by even post-retcon Beyonder. No.

These battles take place in a neutral universe, with all of the characters' abilities operating to their max capacity. IOW, the Aliens' fundamental role as agents of the real world staff still applies. That IS their powerset.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Just like all-mighty Mxy in Marvel, was stalemated by the Impossible Man.
In Marvel comics, that's his equal. In fact, the IM was literally a "rip-off" of Mxy. (stated on panel) What was the point of even bringing this up?

Originally posted by Mr Master
She-Hulk effortlessly murdered John Byrne ...

... who was the equivalent to Grant Morrison in Animal Man.

btw, Unless I'm missing something in the scans presented,
the Aliens are just as cartoony as She-Hulk. (ink is ink) You are missing the point entirely.

Again, the Aliens' superiority here HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR ABILITY TO BREAK THE FOURTH WALL.

How many times to I have to keep saying this?

wait so the argument is that because shehulk "killed" her writer the yellow aliens arent as powerful?

wth is going on here lol?



lobos performed 4th wall antics that would put shehulk to absolute shame but i still recognise that those feats dont lessen the aliens. ****ing hell.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

lobos performed 4th wall antics that would put shehulk to absolute shame

but i still recognise that those feats dont lessen the aliens. ****ing hell.
Really? ... So Lobo killed his writer and artist?

Scans?

Also, She-Hulk literally broke the 4th wall in every way imaginable across 50 issues straight.

All kinds of crazy. You have no idea obviously to make such a statement.

Finally killing her own writer and artist.

Originally posted by Galan007
No.

These battles take place in a neutral universe, with all of the characters' abilities operating to their max capacity. IOW, the Aliens' fundamental role as agents of the real world staff still applies. That IS their powerset.
So Beyonder stomps then. The Aliens power is inherent with a DC writer, not Marvel.

RW writer avatars are beneath Beyonder anyway.

Senseless? ... no more senseless than anything being considered "literal" here.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Really? ... So Lobo killed his writer and artist?

Scans?

Also, She-Hulk literally broke the 4th wall in every way imaginable across 50 issues straight.

All kinds of crazy. You have no idea obviously to make such a statement.

Finally killing her own writer and artist. lobo beat the shit out of every writer and artist on his title (even the editor of the company). hes physically pulled in writers from off panel just to talk shit to them, hes killed people in his own book at the bidding of the editors just to extend his series by a few issues, and he was legit writing his own story tow2ard the end of his series.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So Beyonder stomps then. The Aliens power is inherent with a DC writer, not Marvel.

RW writer avatars are beneath Beyonder anyway.

Senseless? ... no more senseless than anything being considered "literal" here. facepalm

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

1) lobo beat the shit out of every writer and artist on his title (even the editor of the company).

2) hes physically pulled in writers from off panel just to talk shit to them,

3) hes killed people in his own book at the bidding of the editors just to extend his series by a few issues,

4) and he was legit writing his own story tow2ard the end of his series.
1) So has She-Hulk. She broke in Marvel headquarters and phuked everyone up.

2) So did She-Hulk. She was intimidating Byrne the entire run.

3) So did She-Hulk. Only she was completely controlling the writer and artist and editor.

4) So did She-Hulk, half the series of 50 issues she was directing Byrne.

=================================

So I see Lobo never killed his writer and artist in your list.

Therefore, I'm still waiting on what puts her to shame?

Because according to your list, it's She-Hulk putting Lobo to shame.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

beyonder is one of the most boring, shit characters ever created.
he lacks depth. he lack substance.
he lacks anything that makes a character enjoyable on any level.
Interesting, and yet, SWI and II and the best selling Marvel series of all time.

So Lobo never killed his writer and artist.

Still waiting on what he's done that puts She-Hulk to shame.

Originally posted by Mr Master
1) So has She-Hulk. She broke in Marvel headquarters and phuked everyone up.

2) So did She-Hulk. She was intimidating Byrne the entire run.

3) So did She-Hulk. Only she was completely controlling the writer and artist and editor.

4) So did She-Hulk, half the series of 50 issues she was directing Byrne.

=================================

So I see Lobo never killed his writer and artist in your list.

Therefore, I'm still waiting on what puts her to shame?

Because according to your list, it's She-Hulk putting Lobo to shame. theres more.

he also forced one of the writers to give him increased powers and no weaknesses for an entire arc just for the luls.

he intentionally didnt kill carlin because he knew that killing him would result in his series getting canceled.

... She-Hulk killed Animal Man Grant Morrison's equal in Marvel.

And that RW writer avatars got nothing on classic Beyonder:

==============================================

In the Beyonder's case, he was the Supreme power ...

... ridiculous as it may be Jim Shooter stated Beyonder discovered him along with Marvel:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1799763_jim2mj1.jpg

"Beyonder's discovery of our Universe"

"We introduced the Beyonder
and established
that he was studying these beings - us - he had discovered"

------------------------------------------------------


This is probably why ol' Jimmy had Stan Lee bowing to the Beyonder:

(left bottom corner ... top of his index finger ... Beyonder's right hand)

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15315001_Beyonder_TOAA.jpg

(top right corner)

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15315002_Beyonder_TOAA2.jpg



-------------------------------------------------

If TOAA was a character in play at the time,
then TOAA was < Beyonder according to Shooter.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Interesting, and yet, SWI and II and the best selling Marvel series of all time. secret wars 1 was really good, but beyonder as a character was absolutely terrible in secret wars 2. really really bad.

Originally posted by Mr Master
... She-Hulk killed Animal Man Grant Morrison's equal in Marvel.

And that RW writer avatars got nothing on classic Beyonder:

==============================================

In the Beyonder's case, he was the Supreme power ...

... ridiculous as it may be Jim Shooter stated Beyonder discovered him along with Marvel:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1799763_jim2mj1.jpg

"Beyonder's discovery of our Universe"

"We introduced the Beyonder
and established
that he was studying these beings - us - he had discovered"

------------------------------------------------------


This is probably why ol' Jimmy had Stan Lee bowing to the Beyonder:

(left bottom corner ... top of his index finger ... Beyonder's right hand)

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15315001_Beyonder_TOAA.jpg

(top right corner)

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15315002_Beyonder_TOAA2.jpg



-------------------------------------------------

If TOAA was a character in play at the time,
then TOAA was < Beyonder according to Shooter. were....were you waiting for the next page just to post this irrevalent spam?

i like how the face of some random old dude bowing to beyonder means beyonder is above stan lee and all marvel staff. thats a good one.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

he intentionally didnt kill carlin

because he knew that killing him would result in his series getting canceled.
Scans?

And .. She-Hulk DID kill Byrne.

btw, I almost forgot another Marvel 4th wall GOD, Thermos of Earth-9047 ...

... killed the Editor in chief (Tom DeFalco) on panel, lol.

That's She-Hulk worthy, perhaps greater.

cant post scans atm, but last dozen or so issues of lobos series is when he really started going wild with the 4th wall stuff.

deadpools also done the same type of stuff. messed with the panels, killed his writers. all that. shehulks goofy 4th wall stuff isnt unique to her. not even a little.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
beyonder is one of the most boring, shit characters ever created. he lacks depth. he lack substance. he lacks anything that makes a character enjoyable on any level.

the only thing he had going for him was power.

Secret Wars 1-2 was the best selling comics in Marvel history.

I would never in my right mind buy a lobo comic or any of those others.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

were....were you waiting for the next page just to post this irrevalent spam?
I see. Spam? We're dealing with 4th wall affiliated cats, (the Aliens)

so, how you figure me posting 4th wall flirtations in Beyonder's case to be spam?

isn't spam you telling us Lobo put She-Hulk to shame, and yet,
you haven't produced a single incident where this is so?

Still waiting on those scanned claims you made.
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

i like how the face of some random old dude bowing to beyonder

means beyonder is above stan lee and all marvel staff.
Yet, coincidental how the only face that's drawn Twice is Stan Lee's.

----------------------------------------

The First scan: represents all people of the world, (that image is clearly his)

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/41196297_St5.jpg

----------------------------------------

The Second scan represents the most powerful men/women of the world,
which is the heroes/villains and 4 non-powered humans
(president Reagan, Frank the biggest drug dealer,
don't know the old head beneath Ultron, and evidently Stan Lee again)

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/41196298_St6.jpg

----------------------------------------

So, considering that his visage was included in both pages,
I find it highly unlikely it was a fortuitous act on the artist's part.

===============================

What about Jim Shooter? (creator of SWI and II and Editor in Chief of Marvel)

Was that also some random dude being interviewed who said Beyonder discovered him with Marvel?

And Marvel was a drop of water next to Beyonder the ocean.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I see. Spam? We're dealing with 4th wall affiliated cats, (the Aliens)

so, how you figure me posting 4th wall flirtations in Beyonder's case to be spam?

isn't spam you telling us Lobo put She-Hulk to shame, and yet,
you haven't produced a single incident where this is so?

Still waiting on those scanned claims you made. i told you the general issues they came from. youre welcome to check them out if you want. anyone whos read those books knows i aint lying.



Originally posted by Mr Master
Yet, coincidental how the only face that's drawn Twice is Stan Lee's.

----------------------------------------

The First scan: represents all people of the world, (that image is clearly his)

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/41196297_St5.jpg

----------------------------------------

The Second scan represents the most powerful men/women of the world,
which is the heroes/villains and 4 non-powered humans
(president Reagan, Frank the biggest drug dealer,
don't know the old head beneath Ultron, and evidently Stan Lee again)

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/41196298_St6.jpg

----------------------------------------

So, considering that his visage was included in both pages,
I find it highly unlikely it was a fortuitous act on the artist's part.

===============================

What about Jim Shooter? (creator of SWI and II and Editor in Chief of Marvel)

Was that also some random dude being interviewed who said Beyonder discovered him with Marvel?

And Marvel was a drop of water next to Beyonder the ocean. you see stan lee because thats who you want to see. thats who you want it to be.

i saw a cloud in the shape of a dragon today. that doesnt mean it was really a dragon lol.
====
so what are you arguing exactly? that beyonder is real and predates the writer who created him? come on.

i know you fanboy over beyonder but hes just not intended to be metafictional in the same way the others are. that doesnt lessen his power though so theres no reason to start trying to dig for stuff that just isnt there.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

i told you the general issues they came from. youre welcome to check them out if you want. anyone whos read those books knows i aint lying.
So, Lobo never did anything that puts She-Hulk to shame. Got it.
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

you see stan lee because thats who you want to see. thats who you want it to be.

i saw a cloud in the shape of a dragon today. that doesnt mean it was really a dragon lol.
Gibberish.

Unlike yourself, who's throwing claims around without proof, I'm the opposite.

So, let's see what's your next poppycock spin
when I post the Marvel Masterworks edition issue
where Shooter tells us it's Stan Lee and Reagan.

Will we be seeing images in puffy clouds of you deepthroating your own foot? I wonder. hm
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

so what are you arguing exactly?

that beyonder is real and predates the writer who created him? come on.
That's your limited perceptions at work. I said no such thing.

I said Beyonder is above RW writer avatars.

Please tell me I don't have to distinguish the difference for ya.
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

i know you fanboy over beyonder

but hes just not intended to be metafictional in the same way the others are.
Aha! ... So now you're fumbling your purpose for us and admitting you made a spite thread.

Which equates to trolling.

If you didn't think Beyonder => metafiction bullshit ... why the thread?

Troll on!

Originally posted by Mr Master
So, Lobo never did anything that puts She-Hulk to shame. Got it.

Gibberish.

Unlike yourself, who's throwing claims around without proof, I'm the opposite.

So, let's see what's your next poppycock spin
when I post the Marvel Masterworks edition issue
where Shooter tells us it's Stan Lee and Reagan.

Will we be seeing images in puffy clouds of you deepthroating your own foot? I wonder. hm

That's your limited perceptions at work. I said no such thing.

I said Beyonder is above RW writer avatars.

Please tell me I don't have to distinguish the difference for ya.

Aha! ... So now you're fumbling your purpose for us and admitting you made a spite thread.

Which equates to trolling.

If you didn't think Beyonder => metafiction bullshit ... why the thread?

Troll on! if shehulk did all that stuff as well then her and lobo would be equal in 4th wall stupidity i guess.
===
if you have something that says the old dudes face is supposed to be stan lee or whatever then post it (you dont need to wait for a new page this time lol). stans appeared in a bunch of marvel books over the years and more often then not he hasnt been in the guise of an omnipotent being at all. so it honestly wouldnt make much of a difference either way.
===
you must have a very limited view of what a writer avatar is. certainly beyonder couldnt be above the rw writer avatar shown in animal man, because that is the being who literally makes the issue everything takes place in. you cannot be more powerful then that. shooters halfassed version of metafiction isnt at all equal to morrisons.
===
not at all. truth be told i thought it would be a good fight at first. but i just wasnt aware of how meta the aliens are. very difficult to combat powers like that.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

if shehulk did all that stuff as well then her and lobo would be equal in 4th wall stupidity i guess.
Nah. She-Hulk killed her writer and artist. She's above Lobo in 4th wall stupidity.
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

1) if you have something that says the old dudes face is supposed to be stan lee or whatever then post it (you dont need to wait for a new page this time lol).

2)stans appeared in a bunch of marvel books over the years and more often then not he hasnt been in the guise of an omnipotent being at all. so it honestly wouldnt make much of a difference either way.
1) I will. And I'll post it when I wish to, not when you say.

But I am looking forward to the cloudy images that will manifest for you.

2) lol, so now that you know what's coming (making u eat your words)
Stan being humilated isn't a big deal. Before I was day dreaming images in clouds lmfao!
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

you must have a very limited view of what a writer avatar is.

certainly beyonder couldnt be above the rw writer avatar shown in animal man, because that is the being who

literally makes the issue everything takes place in.

you cannot be more powerful then that. shooters halfassed version of metafiction isnt at all equal to morrisons.

Googoogaga ...

tell that to She-Hulk, who killed her RW Writer & Artist's avatar,
and Thermos, who killed the RW Editor in Chief's avatar,
and Sise-neg Genesis, who created from nothingness his RW Writer and Artist's avatars.

That said, awaiting the next excuse.

Beyonder wouldn't have any real control of YA's.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah. She-Hulk killed her writer and artist. She's above Lobo in 4th wall stupidity.

1) I will. And I'll post it when I wish to, not when you say.

But I am looking forward to the cloudy images that will manifest for you.

2) lol, so now that you know what's coming (making u eat your words)
Stan being humilated isn't a big deal. Before I was day dreaming images in clouds lmfao!

Googoogaga ...

tell that to She-Hulk, who killed her RW Writer & Artist's avatar,
and Thermos, who killed the RW Editor in Chief's avatar,
and Sise-neg Genesis, who created from nothingness his RW Writer and Artist's avatars.

That said, awaiting the next excuse. but lobo stated that he was going to kill carlin but intentionally didnt because killing the editor could have meant that his book got canceled and he didnt want that.
===
no youre waiting for a new page so you can spam cropped images. you do this all the time. if you have such evidence on hand just post it lol. no reason to be a premadonna lol
===
jesus christ. you obviously have no idea how metafiction works. you are a lost cause

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Beyonder wouldn't have any real control of YA's. exactly! beyonders power isnt above the actual real world writers of the real world comic books. no fictional character can be that powerful. therefore he could not have any control over the aliens.

i didnt realize this when i made this thread but i do now. i also underestimated how ridiculous the beyonder wank is here

Okay, this discussion is getting toxic, and actually kind of ridiculous given that goofy fourth wall hijinks in other books has nothing to do with Trano & Zaarn.

If y'all want to have a civilized discussion about metafiction and whatnot in a separate thread, I'd be open to that. This thread, however, seems to have run its course.

Closing.