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Both universal creators. Recently before being depowered frank was popping out universes without effort. I see these guys on pretty much the same level. Who takes it? Some actual support would be amazing.

Ban this guy, mods

Based off fts, Franklin stomps, with ease.

Originally posted by carver9
Based off fts, Franklin stomps, with ease.

Like Witchy Wonder Woman?

World Forger can preform multiversal feats with ease.

Franklin is pretty solidly capped at universal.

WF with ease

Originally posted by Galan007
World Forger can preform multiversal feats with ease.

Franklin is pretty solidly capped at universal.

Which feats do you think place him at multiversal levels of power? Technically franklin created a multiverse as well.

He was about to instantly subvert/replace the mainstream multiverse with his own multiverse.

Something like that requires fully multiversal power.

Cant believe Justice League has a multiversal being on their team.

WF's duty was to populate the multiverse
How can he not be multiversal

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Cant believe Justice League has a multiversal being on their team.

I doubt he still will be. He changed his DNA which likely will neuter him

Originally posted by leonidas
Which feats do you think place him at multiversal levels of power? Technically franklin created a multiverse as well.

Reading this for myself.

He used an anvil and his weapon to POSSIBLY achieve a result. We never saw the outcome of said event. I dont understand why things like this are not being looked at. We primarily look at fts THAT HAPPENED vs lip service. I'm sure if I use Gladiator son mentioning that he witness his dad ripping a black hole in apart, people would dismiss it. Or how about Hulk power rivaling the Phoenix force. If I'm wrong about this and he waved his hand to create and destroy a multiverse, apology on my end but DANG, I would love to see it.

Wait.......

What do you think he's been doing before? For five billion years?

Originally posted by carver9
He used an anvil and his weapon to POSSIBLY achieve a result. We never saw the outcome of said event. Originally posted by Galan007
It really is cut and dry.

Earlier in the arc World Forger stated that once his Hammer was lit, all he had to do was strike the Crisis Anvil, and *poof*, his multiverse would instantly replace the existing one:
https://i.imgur.com/jN0ET4j.jpg

Cut to this issue, and World Forger's Hammer is lit:
https://i.imgur.com/lU3wRvS.jpg

His Crisis Anvil is fully formed:
https://i.imgur.com/N7Lg0Jr.jpg

He was literally in the process of striking the Anvil and replacing multiverses:
https://i.imgur.com/i3XUGbm.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uCKx4pJ.jpg

But before his swing connects, Superman punches him and destroys the Anvil:
http://i.imgur.com/qEav0A5m.jpg http://i.imgur.com/i9gQGJMm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/34XZ2Wgm.jpg
*In the last scan you can actually see reality being shattered.

Cut to World Forger stating that his multiverse collapsed:
https://i.imgur.com/wKyuQix.jpg



Simple logic is simple.


tl;dr
Hammer was lit, Crisis Anvil was fully formed, and a new multiverse was ready to replace the old one. But your contention is that... Nothing would've happened when he struck the Anvil?

C'mon, carv... That was the whole point of the story. ermm

Tbf, we never actually saw WBH break a world on his own - he merely cracked the Eastern Seaboard. Never saw the outcome of said event

Originally posted by MrMind
WF's duty was to populate the multiverse
How can he not be multiversal

am I mistaken but didn't franklin and reed due this after secret wars

Originally posted by staxamillion
am I mistaken but didn't franklin and reed due this after secret wars Franklin required Owen's help/power to fully manifest the universes he was conceiving:
https://i.imgur.com/FQNPmVi.jpg


World Forger does not require outside assistance to create universes. He alone hammers them out en gros.

hmm interesting. maybe I should check out what all this hype is. hadn't seen this amount of hoopla maybe ever here

Originally posted by Galan007
He was about to instantly subvert/replace the mainstream multiverse with his own multiverse.

Something like that requires fully multiversal power.

ok, i disagree with your conclusion.

firstly, wf was indeed going to replace the prime reality with the future "justice formation". but this isn't something he was able to casually do. he needed a crisis anvil to form and he needed his hammer to light. neither of those things appear to be things he can just will into being unless a TRUE crisis is imminent--in this case in the form of mxy. as for replacing the prime--as i said, true. but he wasn't going to do it until AFTER mxy wiped everything out:

https://imgur.com/a/HAJdTlM

the new (he uses the term...) universe, won't descend until AFTER the old prime was unwritten by mxy. then the new one descends in place of the vanished one. it's not like he can casually replace mutliverses whenever he feels like it. not imo. it seems he needed the old one to be destroyed first, so he could place the new one in the void it left. he DOES reference the mutliverse, but in that regard, i think he means that the prime universe will have lost a great deal of time--his new prime is a FUTURE prime. he hopes that when judged, they don't notice how much more time has past in the NEW prime, relative to the rest of the multiverse.... that's my take at least.

the fact that he's just replacing the prime UNIVERSE is supported here:

https://imgur.com/a/bmw2aNp

as for wf's function: we know he is to populate the multiverse. how does he do that? by creating "worlds". i take that to mean universes. which makes sense since once he's created.....LOTS of universes (some of which succeed, others that don't) he will have created a....MULTIVERSE. almost PRECISELY the way franklin did so. he created a multiverse one universe at a time.

https://imgur.com/a/qL9rRLB

https://imgur.com/a/9R0A41C

soon each of the 3 realms would be populated with UNIVERSES. again, fitting wf's role as multiversal..."populat-er" one universe at a time....

an interesting side note--wf isn't, apparently, responsible for the creation of EARTH PRIME:

https://imgur.com/a/DY3XRyp

he didn't even know how it could have come to be. odd. here again he insists he creates "worlds":

https://imgur.com/a/KaHgMek

now i know there is a lot of merging terminology in comics, but i don't think i've ever once seen worlds taken to mean...multiverses. a lot of mixed terminology was used throughout the arc, tbh. universe and multiverse seemed to be almost interchangeable at times, which makes understanding the scope a bit....subjective, admittedly. even assuming the anvil held a new multiverse, there is still no reason to suspect wf did anything but build it one universe at a time. maybe he took only the BEST universes that he brought into being and stuck them all together? i dunno. no one does, because it's never really explained.

anyway, all of that just to say that i don't think wf is any more a multiversal power than franklin is. now it's true frank couldn't anchor the universe in place, but he could still shape them, but as we saw with heroes reborn, he IS capable of creating a universe on his own. in terms of overall power, i think frank and wf are very very close.

tl;dr /shrug

He didnt do it under his own power either. He needed something to do it, more than just something. It's not a power ft for him.

Power wise, he's pretty uber. Basically treated Barbatos like nothing.

Originally posted by leonidas
ok, i disagree with your conclusion.

firstly, wf was indeed going to replace the prime reality with the future "justice formation". but this isn't something he was able to casually do. he needed a crisis anvil to form and he needed his hammer to light. neither of those things appear to be things he can just will into being unless a TRUE crisis is imminent--in this case in the form of mxy. as for replacing the prime--as i said, true. but he wasn't going to do it until AFTER mxy wiped everything out:

https://imgur.com/a/HAJdTlM

the new (he uses the term...) universe, won't descend until AFTER the old prime was unwritten by mxy. then the new one descends in place of the vanished one. it's not like he can casually replace mutliverses whenever he feels like it. not imo. it seems he needed the old one to be destroyed first, so he could place the new one in the void it left. he DOES reference the mutliverse, but in that regard, i think he means that the prime universe will have lost a great deal of time--his new prime is a FUTURE prime. he hopes that when judged, they don't notice how much more time has past in the NEW prime, relative to the rest of the multiverse.... that's my take at least.

the fact that he's just replacing the prime UNIVERSE is supported here:

https://imgur.com/a/bmw2aNp

as for wf's function: we know he is to populate the multiverse. how does he do that? by creating "worlds". i take that to mean universes. which makes sense since once he's created.....LOTS of universes (some of which succeed, others that don't) he will have created a....MULTIVERSE. almost PRECISELY the way franklin did so. he created a multiverse one universe at a time.

https://imgur.com/a/qL9rRLB

https://imgur.com/a/9R0A41C

soon each of the 3 realms would be populated with UNIVERSES. again, fitting wf's role as multiversal..."populat-er" one universe at a time....

an interesting side note--wf isn't, apparently, responsible for the creation of EARTH PRIME:

https://imgur.com/a/DY3XRyp

he didn't even know how it could have come to be. odd. here again he insists he creates "worlds":

https://imgur.com/a/KaHgMek

now i know there is a lot of merging terminology in comics, but i don't think i've ever once seen worlds taken to mean...multiverses. a lot of mixed terminology was used throughout the arc, tbh. universe and multiverse seemed to be almost interchangeable at times, which makes understanding the scope a bit....subjective, admittedly. even assuming the anvil held a new multiverse, there is still no reason to suspect wf did anything but build it one universe at a time. maybe he took only the BEST universes that he brought into being and stuck them all together? i dunno. no one does, because it's never really explained.

anyway, all of that just to say that i don't think wf is any more a multiversal power than franklin is. now it's true frank couldn't anchor the universe in place, but he could still shape them, but as we saw with heroes reborn, he IS capable of creating a universe on his own. in terms of overall power, i think frank and wf are very very close.

tl;dr /shrug You don't think it requires fully multiversal power to instantaneously replace one multiverse with another(which is precisely what WF himself said would happen when his Hammer struck the Anvil)..? Yes, he needed the Hammer to be lit and the Crisis Anvil to be formed, but that is all still just an extension of HIS power.

As explained in Metal and JL: WF's primary function was indeed to populate the multiverse with an infinite amount of physical universes, which he did... Twice(once with the mainstream 3D multiverse, and again with his new and more evolved multiverse.) But that doesn't preclude the notion that he can act in a fully multiversal capacity when need be, which is something Franklin cannot do under any circumstances that I am aware of.

Also, Franklin can only conceive of full-scale universes. He cannot bind/solidify them or anchor them to reality... Owen had to do that for him. WF obviously does not have the same limitation where universal creation is concerned, so either way he should be considerably above Franklin, imo.

and didnt wf create barbatos JUST to devour all the universes that he discarded into the dark multiverse? and he treated barbatos like his own little pet housecat lol

franklin can really only create pocket universes.making full universes isnt in his power/

wf rapes here

Agree that WF is NOT some casual multiversal power, that's not what was shown

He's easily universal, though. WF wins.

Originally posted by Demon of Heaven
Agree that WF is NOT some casual multiversal power, that's not what was shown
He can displace an entire multiverse with one hammer swing but he is not a multiversal power?

How so?

world forger's entire purpose was to birth lives in the multiverse

how is he not multiversal?

Originally posted by MrMind
world forger's entire purpose was to birth lives in the multiverse

how is he not multiversal?

Which we were told:

https://i.postimg.cc/sD3knYNK/1.jpg

again:

https://i.postimg.cc/2jdpFc2V/2.jpg

and again:

https://i.postimg.cc/prJgWrpD/3.jpg

that his job was to birth lives. And even created Barbatos to be his pet rat scavenger that he keeps in his pocket.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He can displace an entire multiverse with one hammer swing but he is not a multiversal power?

How so?

Context of story seems to escape you here

Originally posted by Demon of Heaven
Context of story seems to escape you here
Tell me the context then.

WF with ease.

Even if Franklin were on his level of power (he's not), he's still a b.itch deep down. Just like Reed.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Tell me the context then.

Sigh...You already know the context and seem to be ignoring it

Originally posted by Demon of Heaven
Sigh...You already know the context and seem to be ignoring it
Pretend I don't know and tell me what you think happened.

would it be more fair to say wf tools are multiversal?

and maybe the tools he uses are standard gear thus far so that makes wf universal?

Originally posted by staxamillion
would it be more fair to say wf tools are multiversal?

and maybe the tools he uses are standard gear thus far so that makes wf universal?

EXACTLY. Take the anvil AND his hammer out of the picture and just place WF in a room by his lonesome WITH NOTHING... he can not do anything multiversal/Universal. Nothing shows he can. It's like calling Reed universal because he have items that is non a universal scale.

Originally posted by carver9
EXACTLY. Take the anvil AND his hammer out of the picture and just place WF in a room by his lonesome WITH NOTHING... he can not do anything multiversal/Universal. Nothing shows he can. It's like calling Reed universal because he have items that is non a universal scale.

edit

Originally posted by staxamillion
would it be more fair to say wf tools are multiversal?

and maybe the tools he uses are standard gear thus far so that makes wf multiversal?

EXACTLY.

In the next thread from Carver:. Green Lantern vs Gladiator, but we must take Hal's ring away.

Then Iron Man vs Magneto, but Tony is not allowed his suit.

Originally posted by carver9
EXACTLY. Take the anvil AND his hammer out of the picture and just place WF in a room by his lonesome WITH NOTHING... he can not do anything multiversal/Universal. Nothing shows he can. It's like calling Reed universal because he have items that is non a universal scale. it doesn't change anything because
1)what's to stop him from creating another set?

2)The hammer and anvil are tools he created and powered. that shows that he can grant multiversal power to inanimate objects so he should be multiversal himself.

3) the hammer and anvil was going to be used to replace the current multiverse with the one He created. A being that can create a multiverse should be multiversal himself no?

If you keep going with the hammer and anvil being multiversal, you inadvertently tripled superman's feat.

Think about it. With one punch,
Superman destroyed a multiversal object.
Superman destroyed a multiverse.
Superman knocked out a being that can create and destroy multiverses.

Are you sure you want to debate this angle? It just makes superman's feat even more formidable.

Originally posted by carver9
EXACTLY. Take the anvil AND his hammer out of the picture and just place WF in a room by his lonesome WITH NOTHING... he can not do anything multiversal/Universal. g007-psyduck

i mean i get the confusion. i think when people say casual multiversal power they mean some that can at any moment no matter display that power. i think it get weird when the tools get involved because when he has them he can casually display the power if they are not interfered with.

but yeah from what ive seen in scans wf has multiversal feats but it seems without tools he just uber blah blah. like take away cable's time traveling whatevers he still has time traveling feats but he can no longer time travel so the power isn't his.

the power comes from the combination of wf and the stuff he uses like iron man and green lantern so Carver and DS agree?

Call it standard equipment if you wish. Either way, the Hammer and Anvil are literally PART of World Forger's powerset. PART of his conceptual purpose/role, as defined when Perpetua originally created him 20 billion years ago.

Like DS said: if Hal Jordan is in a thread, it is assumed he has his ring. Same thing here... The Hammer and Anvil are an extension of World Forger's power. Of course they should play a factor in how he is quantified.

i agree i think that just squashes the confusion a little maybe

I'm not even sure why the confusion arose in the first place lmao

Neither do I. Kind of blown away by the recent comments

Poor WF is literally defined by his job. To forge worlds. And what do we do? Take whatever he uses to accomplish his one role away.

Considering the fact that WF created new multiverse from idea, WF is easily multiversal.
So,WF stomps.

Originally posted by Galan007
You don't think it requires fully multiversal power to instantaneously replace one multiverse with another(which is precisely what WF himself said would happen when his Hammer struck the Anvil)..? Yes, he needed the Hammer to be lit and the Crisis Anvil to be formed, but that is all still just an extension of HIS power.

i don't see him as multiversal for the sole reason that he can't just replace a multiverse whenever he wants, something a true multiversal power might be able to do. there needs to be a very explicit set of circumstances to enable him to achieve the feat. almost like the multiverse needs to be prepped for him to do it. and, minus being a universe-builder, that is his sole feat of any note (besides...stopping superman's punch and....slamming him to the ground....?) in this case--maybe all cases--he didn't supplant a multiverse at all, he was simply prepared to fill a void left behind by another one. he didn't even destroy the prime universe/multiverse or anything--mxy was responsible for that. since he was incapable of even existing in the prime, i see no reason to suppose he could even destroy the prime UNIVERSE at will. not sure how he can be truly multiversal if he doesn't even have dominion the prime UNIVERSE. i can hear the calls of pis already--i say it's a reflection of his station in the same way dealing with a crisis is a reflection.



yep, agreed. he populates the multiverse with UNIVERSES. it is crystal clear that perpetua is the multiversal creator, not wf. he just creates universes within her design. create enough universes and what do you get? a multiverse. he does have the ability to anchor universes in a way current franklin couldn't--though kid frank had no problem doing so.... wf does create failed universes though, obviously, just that his failures sink into the dark for barbatos--who eventually defeated wf. (i recall all the cries of how disappointing barbatos's power was, but he still beat wf somehow.) all the failed UNIVERSES together populated the dark multiverse.

anyway, degree of control i'll grant you, but in terms of overall scope? both can create, shape and will into being universes. if certain conditions arise, wf can apparently replace a multiverse, but (slightly off-topic) i do wonder at the scope of what he was trying to do. was he going to replace the entire orrery of worlds? hypertime? he used both universe and multiverse in describing what he was going to do, so, i'm not sure. i find it hard to believe he would replace the entire orrery. what about the monitor? was he replacing the monitor sphere too? the 5th dimension? where do we stop and, given his inconsistent use of terminology, how do we make the decision?



he created the heroes reborn universe without trouble. considerably above frank? not imo. wf does have greater control of his power but i think if they met this would be a lot closer than most think. guess we just agree to disagree on this issue.

i do wonder how people would have reacted to this thread if it were the monitor vs franklin...?

Originally posted by CatL18
Considering the fact that WF created new multiverse from idea, WF is easily multiversal.
So,WF stomps.

no, he didn't. he created a collection of UNIVERSES that together form a multiverse, precisely the way frank and owen were doing things in the recent FF--creating a multiverse one universe at a time.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
EXACTLY.

In the next thread from Carver:. Green Lantern vs Gladiator, but we must take Hal's ring away.

Then Iron Man vs Magneto, but Tony is not allowed his suit.

Is his durability = to that of his weapons? All I'm saying is, just because a being have TOOLS that can achieve outrageous results "in time", this does not translate to his overall physical performance. Example, give Reed the Ultimate Nullifier which could handle Galactus level beings and if he stood in one spot, Superman and Hulk would still crush his face open with a single punch.

Originally posted by CatL18
Considering the fact that WF created new multiverse from idea, WF is easily multiversal.
So,WF stomps.

How did he create it? Let's say if Franklin decides to turn him into quicksand, does he have a counter for that?

Originally posted by carver9
How did he create it? Let's say if Franklin decides to turn him into quicksand, does he have a counter for that?

He can rewrite DNA without the anvil so entirely possible he can.

But the problem with him is we have not seen him fight much to grasp his true capabilities. Now he also rewrote his own DNA so who knows what that will entail moving forward

Originally posted by carver9
Is his durability = to that of his weapons? All I'm saying is, just because a being have TOOLS that can achieve outrageous results "in time", this does not translate to his overall physical performance. Example, give Reed the Ultimate Nullifier which could handle Galactus level beings and if he stood in one spot, Superman and Hulk would still crush his face open with a single punch.

What does it matter?

Iron Man is a low herald. Is Tony Stark as durable as his armour?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What does it matter?

Iron Man is a low herald. Is Tony Stark as durable as his armour?

That is different because Ironman was judged "inside of a suit of armor". I dont think WF is covered in multiverse level armor, is he?

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't see him as multiversal for the sole reason that he can't just replace a multiverse whenever he wants, something a true multiversal power might be able to do. there needs to be a very explicit set of circumstances to enable him to achieve the feat. almost like the multiverse needs to be prepped for him to do it. and, minus being a universe-builder, that is his sole feat of any note (besides...stopping superman's punch and....slamming him to the ground....?) in this case--maybe all cases--he didn't supplant a multiverse at all, he was simply prepared to fill a void left behind by another one. he didn't even destroy the prime universe/multiverse or anything--mxy was responsible for that. since he was incapable of even existing in the prime, i see no reason to suppose he could even destroy the prime UNIVERSE at will. not sure how he can be truly multiversal if he doesn't even have dominion the prime UNIVERSE. i can hear the calls of pis already--i say it's a reflection of his station in the same way dealing with a crisis is a reflection.



yep, agreed. he populates the multiverse with UNIVERSES. it is crystal clear that perpetua is the multiversal creator, not wf. he just creates universes within her design. create enough universes and what do you get? a multiverse. he does have the ability to anchor universes in a way current franklin couldn't--though kid frank had no problem doing so.... wf does create failed universes though, obviously, just that his failures sink into the dark for barbatos--who eventually defeated wf. (i recall all the cries of how disappointing barbatos's power was, but he still beat wf somehow.) all the failed UNIVERSES together populated the dark multiverse.

anyway, degree of control i'll grant you, but in terms of overall scope? both can create, shape and will into being universes. if certain conditions arise, wf can apparently replace a multiverse, but (slightly off-topic) i do wonder at the scope of what he was trying to do. was he going to replace the entire orrery of worlds? hypertime? he used both universe and multiverse in describing what he was going to do, so, i'm not sure. i find it hard to believe he would replace the entire orrery. what about the monitor? was he replacing the monitor sphere too? the 5th dimension? where do we stop and, given his inconsistent use of terminology, how do we make the decision?



he created the heroes reborn universe without trouble. considerably above frank? not imo. wf does have greater control of his power but i think if they met this would be a lot closer than most think. guess we just agree to disagree on this issue.

i do wonder how people would have reacted to this thread if it were the monitor vs franklin...?
Seriously? Superman just flying was affecting entire structure of cosmos (every dimension. sixth dimension is infinitely bigger than fifth dimension which is infinitely bigger than fourth dimension which is infinitely bigger than 3D multiverse) and his punch destroyed an exact replica of 3D multiverse, yet Forger took it and got up. That's not a feat?

How many of these kinds of punches Franklin has taken?

Is it argued that World Forger, explicitly one of the 4 most powerful beings in existence, creator of Multiverses with total control over his form, is as durable as Tony Stark?

It's hard to keep track.

Originally posted by carver9
That is different because Ironman was judged "inside of a suit of armor". I dont think WF is covered in multiverse level armor, is he?
Oh

Emm

Gee.

Lol.

Are you seriously doubling down on this?

So Green Lantern? He is only judged based on his ring finger.
Nico Minoru, with the Staff of One? She only carries it around.
Baron Zemo with Moonstones? He only carries it around.

Are you literally ignoring standard equipment??

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh

Emm

Gee.

Lol.

Are you seriously doubling down on this?

So Green Lantern? He is only judged based on his ring finger.
Nico Minoru, with the Staff of One? She only carries it around.
Baron Zemo with Moonstones? He only carries it around.

Are you literally ignoring standard equipment??

He had to put things together to possibly destroy a multiverse. He created an Anvil and specialized his hammer to achieve a certain result. He doesnt just go into battle at multiversal level. Let's use Chaos King or Mxy as an example. These are 2 beings that could destroy universes on a whim. They dont have to build or put anything together to make these results happen. It's just part of them. WF, we cant say the same thing because going by what we saw, he need things in play to achieve said results.

just so we're clear--carv and i may APPEAR to be arguing the same general side of things, but i disavow all knowledge of him, his arguments and pretty well anything else i can disavow regarding anything he's said, is saying, or ever will say.

Originally posted by leonidas
just so we're clear--carv and i may APPEAR to be arguing the same general side of things, but i disavow all knowledge of him, his arguments and pretty well anything else i can disavow regarding anything he's said, is saying, or ever will say.



Join me.

Originally posted by leonidas
just so we're clear--carv and i may APPEAR to be arguing the same general side of things, but i disavow all knowledge of him, his arguments and pretty well anything else i can disavow regarding anything he's said, is saying, or ever will say. That's what I say about h1.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Seriously? Superman just flying was affecting entire structure of cosmos (every dimension. sixth dimension is infinitely bigger than fifth dimension which is infinitely bigger than fourth dimension which is infinitely bigger than 3D multiverse) and his punch destroyed an exact replica of 3D multiverse, yet Forger took it and got up. That's not a feat?

How many of these kinds of punches Franklin has taken?

I'd say NONE.

Originally posted by carver9
He had to put things together to possibly destroy a multiverse. He created an Anvil and specialized his hammer to achieve a certain result. He doesnt just go into battle at multiversal level. Let's use Chaos King or Mxy as an example. These are 2 beings that could destroy universes on a whim. They dont have to build or put anything together to make these results happen. It's just part of them. WF, we cant say the same thing because going by what we saw, he need things in play to achieve said results.

So Tony needs to put armour on to go into battle on a herald level.

Richard Rider needs to put his helmet on.

Hal needs his ring.

Nico, her staff.

Zemo, his Moonstones for a herald battle.

So what?

Lol Jesus wept, Carver, if I didn't know you better I'd think you were trolling.

for not the first time. mmm

Originally posted by leonidas
yep, agreed. he populates the multiverse with UNIVERSES. it is crystal clear that perpetua is the multiversal creator, not wf. Perpetua created the first 3 blank dimensions of the multiverse. World Forger filled them with life/universes.

However, it would seem that when World Forger was creating his multiverse, he matched what Perpetua did and also created upper-dimensional space. Because again: it was such a perfect replica of the mainstream multiverse that WF was confident that not even the Judges of the Source would notice the switch.

Perpetua was imprisoned almost immediately by the Cosmic Judges. So basically, all of what you see in the DCU is a by-product of World Forger https://i.imgur.com/9Pdd9RV.jpg]

@galan: i'm not so sure that has to be true and i wouldn't feel comfortable suggesting he matched perpetua's feat. he could just as easily have recreated the 3d part of dc's multiverse. nothing really to suggest he did otherwise. regardless of what he did or didn't do, he would still have accomplished the task one universe at a time.

we're just not going to reach agreement here. lol

@phil: well hypertime couldn't have existed without the creation of universes, so, not sure how it pertains exactly. hypertime seems more a by-product of the alternate, other universes, than a dimension unto itself. it's a vessel for reaching other places or times. /shrug

Seriously, World Forger is an equal to AM who has the power to reshaping multiverse in powerset, One of the most powerful beings,

And we debating he is or isn't a multiversal being? Or saying just his standard gears is multiversal himself isn't multiversal?

Pretty much. WF is beyond the likes or FR.

do you...even know how he gained power during the crisis on infinite earths.....?

Originally posted by leonidas
do you...even know how he gained power during the crisis on infinite earths.....? What are you talking about? AM during the crisis on infinite earths was far beyond his normal power, And before this crisis, Monitor's power was fueled by main/positive multiverse and still just stalemate to AM

Besides, He is a multiversal reshaping being was stated in encyclopedia, I just repeat it
https://i.imgur.com/9wJkryC.jpg

Or are you implying that AM wasn't a multiversal being before he absorbing and destroying positive universes?

oh, well, a bio. and you never answered my question.....

you know what, don't bother. lol

Originally posted by leonidas
@phil: well hypertime couldn't have existed without the creation of universes, so, not sure how it pertains exactly. hypertime seems more a by-product of the alternate, other universes, than a dimension unto itself. it's a vessel for reaching other places or times. /shrug Perpetua explicitly, when detailing their functions, says that World Forger will create all that is or will ever be, the Monitor will oversee the Universes that rise into the World Orrery, while Anti-Monitor's function will be to guard the boundaries of all that's created.

https://i.imgur.com/IFeNkD6.jpg

And we clearly see World Forger forges each possibility - i.e. hypertime :

https://i.imgur.com/37WiXtj.jpg

You can even see both WF and Monitor being shocked to discover something that the World Forger didn't create.

Originally posted by leonidas
oh, well, a bio. and you never answered my question.....

you know what, don't bother. lol What question? You asking me about how he gaining his power during COIE isn't you implying before this crisis he isn't a multiversal being?

i'm not arguing that he created the possibilities that make up hypertime (though that is a LOT of creating...). just that hypertime itself doesn't feel like a dimension of its own, but more of a means to REACH one of these possibilities. maybe as each was created he sort of created the chain that is hypertime, and the links that are each possible world?

i doubt very much snyder and the others looked at things this closely.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Seriously? Superman just flying was affecting entire structure of cosmos (every dimension. sixth dimension is infinitely bigger than fifth dimension which is infinitely bigger than fourth dimension which is infinitely bigger than 3D multiverse) and his punch destroyed an exact replica of 3D multiverse, yet Forger took it and got up. That's not a feat?

How many of these kinds of punches Franklin has taken? good point.

So, are we still debating if WF is a multiversal being? Lmao

Originally posted by Diesldude
good point.

Yeah, WF's durability is pretty insane if you think about it.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not arguing that he created the possibilities that make up hypertime (though that is a LOT of creating...). just that hypertime itself doesn't feel like a dimension of its own, but more of a means to REACH one of these possibilities. maybe as each was created he sort of created the chain that is hypertime, and the links that are each possible world?

i doubt very much snyder and the others looked at things this closely. Oh, I was referring to the 'omniverse' of hypertime that was created, not the 'access' point itself. And yeah, he had to work really fast considering the he built infinite universes https://i.imgur.com/hCECSJw.jpg i.e. the pre-crisis version], and that's without counting the infinity of Universes that have existed since then, too, and then the Multiverse that he wanted to replace the main version with etc. Comics.

So, yeah. I mean, this is all pretty clear, so while I understand the absolute ruffle it has caused on the forum, I didn't/don't necessarily want to go into this much details of what all of this implies. Especially since there's ridiculous amount of baiting on both sides which is worth zero time.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
So, are we still debating if WF is a multiversal being? Lmao Certainly not, Since the three brothers powerset all suggesting they are all multiversal beings
Monitor powered by all positive universes/matters
https://i.imgur.com/RnFELcG.jpg

AM could stalemate to peak Monitor without absorbing any positive universes
https://i.imgur.com/Hf3Jh34.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PvmdqaP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RCZEhTg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9oeRLq8.jpg

Originally posted by Phil
https://i.imgur.com/37WiXtj.jpg

You can even see both WF and Monitor being shocked to discover something that the World Forger didn't create. Interesting thing about this scan is that World Forger directly references the Sphere of the Gods, which implies that he created/filled it as well. Quite a feat considering that the Sphere of the Gods is where places like Apokolips, New Genesis, Heaven, Hell, etc. all reside on Morrison's Map.

...Never mind the sheer scale of that Sphere.

World Forger predating ALL the crises/DC configurations, too, makes the whole thing even more insane.

He's the Michael Demiurgos/Lucifer analogue in terms of role of the entire DC.

lol yeah, that's a lot of building. and we know he's been killed as well, so there were times where i guess nothing was being built...?

you mentioned omniverse--if hypertime is indeed an omniversal thing, then at best, wf could have been responsible for only parts of it since his power is manifestly relegated to this multiverse. i always considered hypertime an omniversal feature of the dcu.



lol but what ruffle? my suggestion that wf is a universal power who operates on a multiversal scale? if that's what you're talking about i'm not sure i understand the ruffled-ness. lol to me it seems pretty clear--each had a role--safeguard, monitor the prime universe, safeguard/monitor the anti-matter universe, create universes to populate the already-in-place shell of the multiverse. i mean literally EVERYTHING wf has done can be explained away as him doing things one universe at a time. i TRULY don't understand why that is such an...apocalyptic take. well, except for those who want to use it to scale superman.

and all the baiters and idiots are on ignore so i really never see anything . it is nice to have a reasonable discussion. unlike many--most--i don't claim to be right, i just think my position is as reasonable as the other side and it makes more sense to me based on the mythology snyder has seemingly introduced. /shrug

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Certainly not, Since the three brothers powerset all suggesting they are all multiversal beings
Monitor powered by all positive universes/matters
https://i.imgur.com/RnFELcG.jpg

AM could stalemate to peak Monitor without absorbing any positive universes
https://i.imgur.com/Hf3Jh34.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PvmdqaP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RCZEhTg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9oeRLq8.jpg

Insane .

Originally posted by Galan007
Interesting thing about this scan is that World Forger directly references the Sphere of the Gods, which implies that he created/filled it as well. Quite a feat considering that the Sphere of the Gods is where places like Apokolips, New Genesis, Heaven, Hell, etc. all reside on Morrison's Map.

...Never mind the sheer scale of that Sphere.

Galan what do you think of the earlier scene in Justice League #20 where White Lantern John Stewart and Flash with the speed and still force are custom designing universes to fill the Multiverse?

Was that all a ploy by the World Forger or was it a task he assigned his future Justice League creations to do?

Originally posted by Sensui
Galan what do you think of the earlier scene in Justice League #20 where White Lantern John Stewart and Flash with the speed and still force are custom designing universes to fill the Multiverse?

Was that all a ploy by the World Forger or was it a task he assigned his future Justice League creations to do?

Forgot about that. Either way, that's part of WF power. Incredible.

That Flash collapsed Hypertime!

I was gonna mention that.

He created those JL leaguers out of the best of their essences or whatever.

In short, Full Capacity JL

lol not sure they were gonna beat the classic league though. still seemed up for debate, especially once superman took out the biggest gun.

Originally posted by Sensui
Galan what do you think of the earlier scene in Justice League #20 where White Lantern John Stewart and Flash with the speed and still force are custom designing universes to fill the Multiverse?

Was that all a ploy by the World Forger or was it a task he assigned his future Justice League creations to do? As I understand it, World Forger created his own rendition of an evolved, idealized Justice League -- the 'perfect' heroes, as he saw it(with WF himself playing the role of Superman.)

So imo, they could logically be viewed as extensions of his power. Could be wrong, though, so I'm curious what others have to say.

Originally posted by Sensui
Galan what do you think of the earlier scene in Justice League #20 where White Lantern John Stewart and Flash with the speed and still force are custom designing universes to fill the Multiverse?

Was that all a ploy by the World Forger or was it a task he assigned his future Justice League creations to do?

this wasn't addressed to me but i'll weigh in anyway. lol i don't see why it would be a ploy. wf said that he scanned all possibilities and only THIS formation--a future formation where batman convinced/forced the league to pre-emptively attack the villains--was one that would allow the multiverse a chance to avoid destruction. in this universe, without threat of villains, the league managed to evolve to the point where they could act together to build universes--build a multiverse, in fact, one that would align with justice and be deemed worthy. the league also had access to powers they never have before (still force...).

on a side note--that raises an interesting point--the future league itself is capable of building a multiverse one universe at a time. so, are they multiversal, too...?

anyway....i don't think we need to see this as an extension of wf's power either. there's nothing to indicate that, or that he has that level of control over the universes he sets in motion (see his inability to control any of the dark multiverse universes for proof or his attempts to order batman to help him). this was the universe wf hoped for--a justice formation brought about through batman's decision and the league's evolution. no reason imo not to think their accomplishments/feats weren't real and their own.

on a side note: that issue did clear up the deal wf made with mxy though--he simply needed mxy to clear the way for him--ie--wipe out the old multiverse to make way for his new one. mxy is still part of the multiverse after all, and if the judges deemed it unworthy, he'd be destroyed along with the rest of the multiverse. seems clear (to me) mxy simply saw this as the only way to try and avoid true multiversal destruction. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
this wasn't addressed to me but i'll weigh in anyway. lol i don't see why it would be a ploy.
I asked Galan because I know he knows far more than I do about DC Cosmology and if something like that would be possible for the Life Entity and Speed/Still Force to accomplish. I know he tempted batman with the Final Bat Suit but what Fake John and Fake Flash was accomplishing was Multiversal even if it was one universe at a time and I wanted to know if Galan thought it was something that could be viewed as an extension of World Forger's power or not.

Originally posted by leonidas
on a side note--that raises an interesting point--the future league itself is capable of building a multiverse one universe at a time. so, are they multiversal, too...?

If you don't view it as an extension of World Forger's power then yes (for John and Flash) it should be imo.

Also I've read through the thread and if I miss characterize your position then let me know but when you said...

Originally posted by leonidas
my suggestion that wf is a universal power who operates on a multiversal scale? if that's what you're talking about i'm not sure i understand the ruffled-ness. lol to me it seems pretty clear--each had a role--safeguard, monitor the prime universe, safeguard/monitor the anti-matter universe, create universes to populate the already-in-place shell of the multiverse.

If he created the Dark Multiverse (regardless of how much control he has over it, or how long it took) then by default shouldn't he classify as a Multiversal Power? Unless your position is that because of the time it took (which we don't know) or his lack of control over Barbatos and the rest of the discarded concepts disqualifies from creating it in the first place?

Also if your position is correct then it literally means that Perpetua, who created her three sons Anti-Monitor, Monitor, and World Forger to manage her creation, literally made her third son the World Forger INFINITELY weaker than Anti-Monitor powered by the anti-matter multiverse and Monitor powered by the positive multiverse.

That just doesn't sound right to me Leonidas, that World Forger would have to be infinitely weaker than his multiversal brothers, especially with the entire concept of replacing Multiverses with his cosmic hammer and anvil when a multiversal crisis appears. Unless you also feel that the Monitor brothers aren't fitting your definition of multiversal either? Or do you feel their multiversal only in specific circumstances because that's the gist of what I'm getting from your classification of the World Forger?

Now I can't speak to Franklin Richards and where he ranks cause I don't know much about him outside of vs threads so consider me ignorant on his power
level.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111113401/6961761-superman%20confirm.jpg

Boom!

WF confirmed as MULTIVERSAL.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Boom!

That obviously means that Superman's feat is not multiversal (nor is World Forger)!

Crack
He only cracked
Anyone can do that

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Crack
He only cracked
Anyone can do that

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't see him as multiversal for the sole reason that he can't just replace a multiverse whenever he wants, something a true multiversal power might be able to do. there needs to be a very explicit set of circumstances to enable him to achieve the feat. almost like the multiverse needs to be prepped for him to do it. and, minus being a universe-builder, that is his sole feat of any note (besides...stopping superman's punch and....slamming him to the ground....?) in this case--maybe all cases--he didn't supplant a multiverse at all, he was simply prepared to fill a void left behind by another one. he didn't even destroy the prime universe/multiverse or anything--mxy was responsible for that. since he was incapable of even existing in the prime, i see no reason to suppose he could even destroy the prime UNIVERSE at will. not sure how he can be truly multiversal if he doesn't even have dominion the prime UNIVERSE. i can hear the calls of pis already--i say it's a reflection of his station in the same way dealing with a crisis is a reflection.



yep, agreed. he populates the multiverse with UNIVERSES. it is crystal clear that perpetua is the multiversal creator, not wf. he just creates universes within her design. create enough universes and what do you get? a multiverse. he does have the ability to anchor universes in a way current franklin couldn't--though kid frank had no problem doing so.... wf does create failed universes though, obviously, just that his failures sink into the dark for barbatos--who eventually defeated wf. (i recall all the cries of how disappointing barbatos's power was, but he still beat wf somehow.) all the failed UNIVERSES together populated the dark multiverse.

anyway, degree of control i'll grant you, but in terms of overall scope? both can create, shape and will into being universes. if certain conditions arise, wf can apparently replace a multiverse, but (slightly off-topic) i do wonder at the scope of what he was trying to do. was he going to replace the entire orrery of worlds? hypertime? he used both universe and multiverse in describing what he was going to do, so, i'm not sure. i find it hard to believe he would replace the entire orrery. what about the monitor? was he replacing the monitor sphere too? the 5th dimension? where do we stop and, given his inconsistent use of terminology, how do we make the decision?



he created the heroes reborn universe without trouble. considerably above frank? not imo. wf does have greater control of his power but i think if they met this would be a lot closer than most think. guess we just agree to disagree on this issue.

i do wonder how people would have reacted to this thread if it were the monitor vs franklin...?

This is pertty much right on the money

Originally posted by Demon of Heaven
This is pertty much right on the money


https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111113401/6961761-superman%20confirm.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend


https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111113401/6961761-superman%20confirm.jpg

Love it when people need to prove there point with writer blogs or bios. Lol


Didn't the replica earth or whatever planet on not even get destroyed from this hit? Hmmmm



Also the cosmic anvil which was already preped and activated had nothing to do this when.destroyed? Hmmmm


Also why don't we see this in comic itself when it happened? Hmmmmm

Where.does it say in comic it.happened.like you said? Hmmmm

Collateral damage means nothing btw

Originally posted by Demon of Heaven
Love it when people need to prove there point with writer blogs or bios. Lol


Didn't the replica earth or whatever planet on not even get destroyed from this hit? Hmmmm



Also the cosmic anvil which was already preped and activated had nothing to do this when.destroyed? Hmmmm


Also why don't we see this in comic itself when it happened? Hmmmmm

Where.does it say in comic it.happened.like you said? Hmmmm Because we already saw it in comics and just clarified by writers/bios







BTW, Collateral damage means nothing which already been debated

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Collateral damage means nothing btw Last time debating about collateral damage was with Alberto.........This saying a lot, Some people just couldn't accept this feat

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Collateral damage means nothing btw

I agree. Esp with battles. But this is different

But dude just said entire dark multiverse was destroyed yet planet they on within dark multiverse is just fine.

Originally posted by Demon of Heaven
Love it when people need to prove there point with writer blogs or bios. Lol


Didn't the replica earth or whatever planet on not even get destroyed from this hit? Hmmmm



Also the cosmic anvil which was already preped and activated had nothing to do this when.destroyed? Hmmmm


Also why don't we see this in comic itself when it happened? Hmmmmm

Where.does it say in comic it.happened.like you said? Hmmmm

Well, it is confirmed in the comic as well, this just confirmed it.

https://i.postimg.cc/zX0rWD9t/image.jpg

"This multiverse is my masterpiece ".

https://s7d4.turboimg.net/sp/38783a09059696ce11765686ffe11078/Justice_League_2018-_025-023.jpg

"My masterpiece , you destroyed it".

Hmmm

Originally posted by Demon of Heaven
I agree. Esp with battles. But this is different

But dude just said entire dark multiverse was destroyed yet planet they on within dark multiverse is just fine.
Because the planet was in sixth dimension which is infinitely bigger than fifth, Fourth and especially 3rd dimension multiverse which was destroyed.

Mxy alone transcends 3D multiverse and he is merely 5th dimensional.

https://i.postimg.cc/Thbnj8s9/image.jpg

Sixth dimension transcends even fifth dimension. Now are you able to understand the dimension hierarchy?

Originally posted by abhilegend
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111113401/6961761-superman%20confirm.jpg

i didnt know an colorist was the authority or the WOG now LOL. that's funny

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
i didnt know an colorist was the authority or the WOG now LOL. that's funny
You're right, the colorist doesn't know the plot or the script of the comic he is working on.

What was I thinking?

Originally posted by Sensui
I asked Galan because I know he knows far more than I do about DC Cosmology and if something like that would be possible for the Life Entity and Speed/Still Force to accomplish. I know he tempted batman with the Final Bat Suit but what Fake John and Fake Flash was accomplishing was Multiversal even if it was one universe at a time and I wanted to know if Galan thought it was something that could be viewed as an extension of World Forger's power or not.

you call the leaguers 'fake'. do you mean that literally, or just to mark a difference? because i don't think they were 'fake'. i think they WERE the league, as they would have turned out, in THAT universe. iow--they were very real. wf is not evil, and i think he legit showed them what might happen if they took out all opposition and could focus on 'justice'.





and you're pretty much getting what i'm saying though you disagree. but let me ask you--doesn't that mean that ANY UNIVERSAL builder is by extension multiversal? i mean anyone who can build universes can build more of them and once you've built even a couple of them, you have a multiverse, by definition. to me, that doesn't imply multiversal power, it just means you can build multiple universes. in wf's case, he doesn't seem capable of controlling his creations, he doesn't seem capable of having any real authority over them, or even whether they succeed or fail as seen with the dark multiverse. he couldn't even enter the prime reality. that's...a lot of limits for a multiversal character. /shrug



imo the things you said all give an indication of his overall level of power, but like i said, multiverses can be made (apparently) in more than one way--brought into existence ex nihilo as perpetua did, or, as wf seems to do, one universe at a time. if he's capable of only creating one universe at a time (and there is LITERALLY no evidence to suggest he can create more than one world at a time) then isn't he by definition UNIVERSAL?



no it doesn't. they didn't preside over multiverses (if the anti-matter universe can be seen as a multiverse as opposed to one massive universe) until AFTER wf started populating things. both monitor and anti-monitor, at the time they were formed, watched over empty shells that would BECOME multiverses because of wf. i think they are all (or were at the time they were made) nearly identical in power--that's the implication imo.



i've said this before. he needed mxy to destroy the previous multiverse for him before he could drop in the new multiverse (and he also uses UNIVERSE to describe what he was doing). if he were truly multiversal, why does he need help? why couldn't he do it at any time? why did he need a very special set of circumstances to arise before he could perform the action?

to me it's simple--that is part of his function. when a crisi arises he can, as the forger, deal with it. a scientist who detonates a nuke with a button doesn't have atomic power. wf was prepared to drop the multiverse into an EMPTY VOID because of a crisis he had to arrange for someone ELSE to bring to fruition. a universal power given the task to replace a multiverse when a crisis comes up. not sure why his personal power needs to be so great if all he is doing is performing a function that he prepared for and that he was made to perform. (unless of course you have some sort of...super agenda. lol)

as for franklin--in heroes reborn he created a universe. it was represented by a little blue ball:

https://imgur.com/a/N22jSiu

now, if he had gone on to make several of those little balls, would he be a multiversal power? not imo. (and on a slightly different topic, was that gator now a universal threat?? lol) he'd just be a universal power who made a bunch of universes.

cool discussion though.

Originally posted by leonidas
ok, i disagree with your conclusion.

firstly, wf was indeed going to replace the prime reality with the future "justice formation". but this isn't something he was able to casually do. he needed a crisis anvil to form and he needed his hammer to light. neither of those things appear to be things he can just will into being unless a TRUE crisis is imminent--in this case in the form of mxy. as for replacing the prime--as i said, true. but he wasn't going to do it until AFTER mxy wiped everything out:

https://imgur.com/a/HAJdTlM

the new (he uses the term...) universe, won't descend until AFTER the old prime was unwritten by mxy. then the new one descends in place of the vanished one. it's not like he can casually replace mutliverses whenever he feels like it. not imo. it seems he needed the old one to be destroyed first, so he could place the new one in the void it left. he DOES reference the mutliverse, but in that regard, i think he means that the prime universe will have lost a great deal of time--his new prime is a FUTURE prime. he hopes that when judged, they don't notice how much more time has past in the NEW prime, relative to the rest of the multiverse.... that's my take at least.

the fact that he's just replacing the prime UNIVERSE is supported here:

https://imgur.com/a/bmw2aNp

as for wf's function: we know he is to populate the multiverse. how does he do that? by creating "worlds". i take that to mean universes. which makes sense since once he's created.....LOTS of universes (some of which succeed, others that don't) he will have created a....MULTIVERSE. almost PRECISELY the way franklin did so. he created a multiverse one universe at a time.

https://imgur.com/a/qL9rRLB

https://imgur.com/a/9R0A41C

soon each of the 3 realms would be populated with UNIVERSES. again, fitting wf's role as multiversal..."populat-er" one universe at a time....

an interesting side note--wf isn't, apparently, responsible for the creation of EARTH PRIME:

https://imgur.com/a/DY3XRyp

he didn't even know how it could have come to be. odd. here again he insists he creates "worlds":

https://imgur.com/a/KaHgMek

now i know there is a lot of merging terminology in comics, but i don't think i've ever once seen worlds taken to mean...multiverses. a lot of mixed terminology was used throughout the arc, tbh. universe and multiverse seemed to be almost interchangeable at times, which makes understanding the scope a bit....subjective, admittedly. even assuming the anvil held a new multiverse, there is still no reason to suspect wf did anything but build it one universe at a time. maybe he took only the BEST universes that he brought into being and stuck them all together? i dunno. no one does, because it's never really explained.

anyway, all of that just to say that i don't think wf is any more a multiversal power than franklin is. now it's true frank couldn't anchor the universe in place, but he could still shape them, but as we saw with heroes reborn, he IS capable of creating a universe on his own. in terms of overall power, i think frank and wf are very very close.

tl;dr /shrug

To be fair, He needed Mxyzptlk to erase the "Prime" Universe because that's the Source of everything. If the Prime Universe is replaced, the entire Multiverse gets replaced. He couldn't go to the 3rd Dimension as his body wasn't designed to go there, he only could go there after he created a new body cell by cell. That's the same reason he fought Superman using a body he created.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Because the planet was in sixth dimension which is infinitely bigger than fifth, Fourth and especially 3rd dimension multiverse which was destroyed.

Mxy alone transcends 3D multiverse and he is merely 5th dimensional.

https://i.postimg.cc/Thbnj8s9/image.jpg

Sixth dimension transcends even fifth dimension. Now are you able to understand the dimension hierarchy?

Oh God I don't even want to get started on DC dimensional tiering bullshit.

Fact is several things had to happen for WF feat to happen and is not something he could do on a whim.

Superman pis feat means nothing also esp. when had a great deal to do with cosmic anvil being destroyed

Originally posted by Demon of Heaven
Oh God I don't even want to get started on DC dimensional tiering bullshit.

Fact is several things had to happen for WF feat to happen and is not something he could do on a whim.

Superman pis feat means nothing also esp. when had a great deal to do with cosmic anvil being destroyed
So all the tooth gnashing and wailing amounted to calling the feat PIS? Gotcha.

i lol'd

Heh! Even if the writer, editor and the president of DC Entertainment, etc confirmed Superman destroyed a multiverse people would still deny it

Originally posted by -K-M-
Heh! Even if the writer, editor and the president of DC Entertainment, etc confirmed Superman destroyed a multiverse people would still deny it
Yup

Originally posted by leonidas
you mentioned omniverse--if hypertime is indeed an omniversal thing, then at best, wf could have been responsible for only parts of it since his power is manifestly relegated to this multiverse. i always considered hypertime an omniversal feature of the dcu. That's why I put the words omniversal in "" - because hypertime includes EVERYTHING - but only as far as this creation is concerned, as far as we've seen, since we have zero knowledge of other creations by characters other than Perpetua. And it is - most assuredly - part of this Multiverse, too. I even posted the scan.

Hypertime being present in World Forger's future Multiverse exp:
https://imgur.com/a/gC7mtKt

Which is only natural - since the Multiverse World Forger built is a carbon copy of the main one, as to not make the Cosmic Judges see the difference.

As is the Fourth World.

As we can clearly see -- Lois resides there, and it's where the prisoners are kept:
https://i.imgur.com/uK4Ar8T.jpg

Darkseid is there, too:
https://imgur.com/a/dwmqTJj

And we have World Forger having created multiple multiverseS until he created the proper one to replace the broken current:
https://i.imgur.com/5VyeZyW.jpg

And we even have some of the remanants of the previous ones, like Lois:
https://i.imgur.com/pcBqpdX.jpg

Just in case you're still in doubt that he built the entire configuration of the main Multiverse, too:
https://imgur.com/a/MHUL6hM


How could anything World Forger has ever done be explained as 'one' Universe at a time, when:
- in this story arc he is explicitly showing the scope as he's about to move an entire Multiverse in one go
- he has created multiple MultiverseS, then left the last one that was fitting to replace the current one
- before that he has created the pre-Crisis Multiverse, then the next etc. he has created infinite Universes and every possibility several times
- he has created more than the 3D Universes - EVERYTHING in the cosmology

etc.

In a way, you're right about him - but not the way you'd like to. He is far above what you'd consider a '3d multiverse' being - he created multiple Multiverses AND the upper dimensions of creation like the 4th World and such. AND he is a 6th Dimensional being. Ironically enough, the more you bring this to my/Galan's attention to actually look into it, the more powerful the character actually is.

It's a weird hill to die on - and I know it revolves around not being to accept Superman as that powerful. Hell, two weeks ago, we had another 20 page or such where people were desperate to bring the other one down.

We weren't even talking about Superman, but about World Forger alone -- so it's that obvious what this really is about.

It's a cycle. We're into "Match the feat" part 2 type of threads.

Originally posted by leonidas
you call the leaguers 'fake'. do you mean that literally, or just to mark a difference? because i don't think they were 'fake'. i think they WERE the league, as they would have turned out, in THAT universe. iow--they were very real. wf is not evil, and i think he legit showed them what might happen if they took out all opposition and could focus on 'justice'.

I think they were real and just used the term "fake" to distinguish them from their prime multiverse selves then use the long "World Forger created possible justice league incarnations white lantern john stewart and etc..."

Originally posted by leonidas
and you're pretty much getting what i'm saying though you disagree. but let me ask you--doesn't that mean that ANY UNIVERSAL builder is by extension multiversal? i mean anyone who can build universes can build more of them and once you've built even a couple of them, you have a multiverse, by definition. to me, that doesn't imply multiversal power, it just means you can build multiple universes. in wf's case, he doesn't seem capable of controlling his creations, he doesn't seem capable of having any real authority over them, or even whether they succeed or fail as seen with the dark multiverse. he couldn't even enter the prime reality. that's...a lot of limits for a multiversal character. /shrug

Yeah, I would classify anyone that can make multiple universes to fill a Multiverse as a multiversal character imo. Because some characters energy or power is spent just creating a single universe and if a character can create a single universe, again, and again, and again, without pause until they create a Multiverse that is said to be larger than the prime multiverse then I would classify that character as multiversal even if they did it one universe at a time because the depth of their power created a multiverse in scope even if it was one universe at a time. They didn't run out of power nor were there limits tested.

I think it would be much clearer and your point would be stronger if it was stated that World Forger's limit was only universal and he needed a massive cool down time between the creation of a single universe and the next but he seems to be rapidly creating universes (possibilities) with no pause unless he is destroyed and reforms in the higher dimension.

Him having certain restrictions on entering 3D universe and when his cosmic anvil had to be lit and other things doesn't take away from his power imo its more like rules of creation that he can't violate and its not his purpose or designation to. That's what I got out of it...

Originally posted by leonidas
the things you said all give an indication of his overall level of power, but like i said, multiverses can be made (apparently) in more than one way--brought into existence ex nihilo as perpetua did, or, as wf seems to do, one universe at a time. if he's capable of only creating one universe at a time (and there is LITERALLY no evidence to suggest he can create more than one world at a time) then isn't he by definition UNIVERSAL?

The way I see it (and this is just to put this on a lower scale) is the same kind of debate if a character blows up a planet, then several more, then dozens more, and keeps going until he or she destroys every planet in the universe.

Would you say that character is only planetary? Personally I would say the character is capable of multi-planetary at least. I wouldn't restrict them to just be planetary when they accomplished much more than that. Now would I classify them as some universe destroyer? No I would not because they didn't affect the entire universe at once, not to mention things like space, time, stars, etc...

In the World Forger's case he can literally swap out one multiverse with another (that mxy was in the process of destroying) with his cosmic anvil apparatus which makes him multiversal imo and not just a universal being.

Originally posted by leonidas
no it doesn't. they didn't preside over multiverses (if the anti-matter universe can be seen as a multiverse as opposed to one massive universe) until AFTER wf started populating things. both monitor and anti-monitor, at the time they were formed, watched over empty shells that would BECOME multiverses because of wf. i think they are all (or were at the time they were made) nearly identical in power--that's the implication imo.

Which would still mean that his brothers have become Infinitely more powerful than him since they, at least during the crisis of infinite earths, grew both to be multiversal powers representing anti and positive matter universes. It doesn't add up to me that World Forger wouldn't become multiversal himself, just like his brothers, with the creation of the Dark Multiverse and this new now defunct future best multiverse he tried to superimpose of the current multiverse.

Originally posted by leonidas
if he were truly multiversal, why does he need help? why couldn't he do it at any time? why did he need a very special set of circumstances to arise before he could perform the action?

Again rules and restriction of his position as one of the beings in charge of Perpetua creation. I don't see this as weakening him like you do. I think of it as more of a cosmic rule that ensures he doesn't cross into other domains that aren't his stated purpose as forger of worlds. Which means that destruction of worlds may not be his function which is why I think he created Barbatos to be the dragon that consumes those discarded worlds.

Originally posted by leonidas
to me it's simple--that is part of his function. when a crisi arises he can, as the forger, deal with it. a scientist who detonates a nuke with a button doesn't have atomic power. wf was prepared to drop the multiverse into an EMPTY VOID because of a crisis he had to arrange for someone ELSE to bring to fruition. a universal power given the task to replace a multiverse when a crisis comes up. not sure why his personal power needs to be so great if all he is doing is performing a function that he prepared for and that he was made to perform. (unless of course you have some sort of...super agenda. lol)

I think for you and your classification a multiversal being must be....how should I put this, able to do everything to a multiverse, instantly with no limits in their function of creation, control, destruction, etc...

And I find that view far too narrow and too limiting. To take things down to a planetary level, if a character has the power to say create life on a planet and that is their purpose but they can't necessarily control all the life they create nor can they destroy a world would you then classify that character as not being planetary?

I would not, they would still be a planetary being with rules in place that govern their abilities to perform a certain function or task and that's it. I wouldn't take away the scope of their abilities because of the rules that constrain the character to only being a creator and not a destroyer.

Cause I think that's really the thing that I'm fundamentally disagreeing with you about. World Forger purpose is not to destroy but to create and him needing Mxy is the same reason he made Barbatos, to consume/destroy universes. That's not in his function to be able to do but imo it doesn't take away from his ability to create (over time) a multiverse.

Originally posted by leonidas
as for franklin--in heroes reborn he created a universe. it was represented by a little blue ball:

https://imgur.com/a/N22jSiu

now, if he had gone on to make several of those little balls, would he be a multiversal power? not imo. (and on a slightly different topic, was that gator now a universal threat?? lol) he'd just be a universal power who made a bunch of universes.

cool discussion though.

I think if a universal power can make multiple universes then their multiversal. Of course their are levels to it and a major difference between several and infinite but I wouldn't restrict a character to a lower level. And thanks for the discussion

Originally posted by Phil
That's why I put the words omniversal in "" - because hypertime includes EVERYTHING - but only as far as this creation is concerned, as far as we've seen, since we have zero knowledge of other creations by characters other than Perpetua. And it is - most assuredly - part of this Multiverse, too. I even posted the scan.

Hypertime being present in World Forger's future Multiverse exp:
https://imgur.com/a/gC7mtKt

Which is only natural - since the Multiverse World Forger built is a carbon copy of the main one, as to not make the Cosmic Judges see the difference.

As is the Fourth World.

As we can clearly see -- Lois resides there, and it's where the prisoners are kept:
https://i.imgur.com/uK4Ar8T.jpg

Darkseid is there, too:
https://imgur.com/a/dwmqTJj

And we have World Forger having created multiple multiverseS until he created the proper one to replace the broken current:
https://i.imgur.com/5VyeZyW.jpg

And we even have some of the remanants of the previous ones, like Lois:
https://i.imgur.com/pcBqpdX.jpg

Just in case you're still in doubt that he built the entire configuration of the main Multiverse, too:
https://imgur.com/a/MHUL6hM

How could anything World Forger has ever done be explained as 'one' Universe at a time, when:
- in this story arc he is explicitly showing the scope as he's about to move an entire Multiverse in one go
- he has created multiple MultiverseS, then left the last one that was fitting to replace the current one
- before that he has created the pre-Crisis Multiverse, then the next etc. he has created infinite Universes and every possibility several times
- he has created more than the 3D Universes - EVERYTHING in the cosmology

etc.

In a way, you're right about him - but not the way you'd like to. He is far above what you'd consider a '3d multiverse' being - he created multiple Multiverses AND the upper dimensions of creation like the 4th World and such. AND he is a 6th Dimensional being. Ironically enough, the more you bring this to my/Galan's attention to actually look into it, the more powerful the character actually is.

It's a weird hill to die on - and I know it revolves around not being to accept Superman as that powerful. Hell, two weeks ago, we had another 20 page or such where people were desperate to bring the other one down.

We weren't even talking about Superman, but about World Forger alone -- so it's that obvious what this really is about.

It's a cycle. We're into "Match the feat" part 2 type of threads.

This thread has been good, because I actually view WF as more powerful now than I did at the start. It's helped me connect a lot of dots, tbh.

-----

On top of everything you mentioned about the infinitudeS that WF fully created/realized, you also have to consider all of the universes that he discarded into the Dark Multiverse... And then consider how immensely vast the Dark Multiverse itself is:
https://i.imgur.com/5mnaa7Y.jpg
"...A realm much older and vaster than ours. An oceanic, subconscious realm our tiny multiverse floats on."

IOW, the sum total of what WF actually created(ie. both the universes he kept AND those the threw away) is unfathomably gargantuan -- we're talking several 'levels' of infinity here, in terms of scope/scale. Crazy.


Moreover, Monitor also confirmed that WF's energies exist in every bit of matter in existence:
https://i.imgur.com/FudD109.jpg
*When Monitor says "EVERY bit of matter", you know he means it in a fully multiversal sense. So like you said: WF very much plays the same part that Michael Demiurgos did.


We also know that WF had personally examined/explored "EVERY possible future":
https://i.imgur.com/MNB1D7K.jpg

And when aligned with this scan(which you already posted), we know that "every possible future" likely translates to "every possible multiverse":
https://i.imgur.com/yUCoxvf.jpg


The way I see it, WF can definitely operate in a fully multiversal capacity when he wants/needs to. But either way, the sheer scope/scale of what he has created FAR exceeds Franklin's universal power(as mentioned, he can only conceive of full-scale universes -- he cannot anchor or bind them to reality. IOW, he cannot fully manifest his universes without outside assistance.)

Apokolips was also hundreds of times larger, fwiw

Originally posted by Galan007


This thread has been good, because I actually view WF as more powerful now than I did at the start. It's helped me connect a lot of dots, tbh.

-----

On top of everything you mentioned about the infinitudeS that WF fully created/realized, you also have to consider all of the universes that he discarded into the Dark Multiverse... And then consider how immensely vast the Dark Multiverse itself is:
https://i.imgur.com/5mnaa7Y.jpg
"...A realm much older and vaster than ours. An oceanic, subconscious realm our tiny multiverse floats on."

IOW, the sum total of what WF actually created(ie. both the universes he kept AND those the threw away) is unfathomably gargantuan -- we're talking several 'levels' of infinity here, in terms of scope/scale. Crazy.


Moreover, Monitor also confirmed that WF's energies exist in every bit of matter in existence:
https://i.imgur.com/FudD109.jpg
*When Monitor says "EVERY bit of matter", you know he means it in a fully multiversal sense. So like you said: WF very much plays the same part that Michael Demiurgos did.


We also know that WF had personally examined/explored "EVERY possible future":
https://i.imgur.com/MNB1D7K.jpg

And when aligned with this scan(which you already posted), we know that "every possible future" likely translates to "every possible multiverse":
https://i.imgur.com/yUCoxvf.jpg


The way I see it, WF can definitely operate in a fully multiversal capacity when he wants/needs to. But either way, the sheer scope/scale of what he has created FAR exceeds Franklin's universal power(as mentioned, he can only conceive of full-scale universes -- he cannot anchor or bind them to reality. IOW, he cannot fully manifest his universes without outside assistance.)

We haven't even gotten into the 10th element...and what even traces of it can do.
https://imgur.com/a/IQakJsB
https://imgur.com/a/DdNm3sp
...and what traces of it power in the 4th World, Miracle Machines...etc.

I legitimately didn't even think to analyze this into this much detail, so this thread certainly helped put it all into perspective

and here i thought it was phil and pr who should get the room.... anyway, if you want to play the no limits/extrapolation card, i'll get to all that later on.

Lol, Phil is my sock account.

But seriously, how is it a no-limits fallacy? We know for a fact what WF created(it is honestly pretty well-defined on panel), and I thought that's what is being discussed.

Are you of the opinion that he didn't create the infinitudes that have been mentioned? Do you think he wasn't capable of switching one multiverse with another during the Crisis event Mxy generated? Do you think the ease in which he can fully manifest universes isn't superior to Franklin's?

Yeah I have to agree with Leo on this
The implication is a bit of a stretch

What implication, exactly?

The implication Galan.

-yUafzOXHPE

Ah, that implication.

Hmm.

I guess I don't see how anything myself or Phil have mentioned so far is much of a stretch, but to each their own.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, Phil is my sock account.

But seriously, how is it a no-limits fallacy? We know for a fact what WF created(it is honestly pretty well-defined on panel), and I thought that's what is being discussed.

Are you of the opinion that he didn't create the infinitudes that have been mentioned? Do you think he wasn't capable of switching one multiverse with another during the Crisis event Mxy generated? Do you think the ease in which he can fully manifest universes isn't superior to Franklin's?

this seems like the best place to start. this will be long, i'm sure. lol

let me first clear up something that i think is causing a lot of folk some consternation.

the obsession with labeling characters is really getting...out of hand, maybe. people seem to object to my definition of a multiversal or universal level character. to me, it's simple--if you are truly a universal level character (sounds ridiculous even saying it...) you are someone who has control/power/authority OVER a universe. if you're 'multiversal' in scale--you have control/power/authority over....the multiverse. to me, that makes the multiversal tier REALLY small. we can argue endlessly regarding the varying degrees of 'multiversality' of characters, but that is generally the way i see it.

and wf? he hasn't demonstrated ANY authority over anything he's created. he couldn't even command batman.... could he have forced the league? changed their minds like he wanted batman too? maybe. he said he could. but that leads to another problem--he tried to create an idealized world to fool the judges--and failed. miserably. shayne evolved in that future, unaccounted for, clearly. the entire result of his future? failure. again, clear evidence he has no real control over anything he brings into being. he said he looked at every possibility (incidentally, i don't think he 'created' every possibility, like, AT ALL--i think he just foresaw them since he can clearly see SOME of the future) and it was the only one that worked. but he was manifestly wrong.

what does that allow? it allows for the idea that there were MANY possibilities he didn't foresee during the course of the multiverse's evolution, or bring into being, but that exist. i mean, i think that is huge part of snyder's overall theme--the power of imagination, of being able to do and go beyond what can be imagined.

if we ascribe to him the creation of EVERY POSSIBLE UNIVERSE IN THE MULTIVERSE we have to discount other created universes like all the realms of dream, for example. and i'm sure you and phil can name others in dc who have built universes or dimensions. i can already think of others.
beyond that, your line of thinking leads to, well, a lot. that's why i said no limits.

did he create a universe where clark kent wore a blue tie to work instead of a red one? where jimmy olson had fish for dinner instead of the pasta he was thinking about? i mean, the red tie and the fish are possibilities, right? and if he didn't even know earth EXISTED, (still not sure if he meant the literal planet or the prime universe) how was he building all the possibilities/futures/alternates that were and WOULD come from it? there was a possibility one day it would be populated with heroes. but he couldn't have created that possibility because he didn't know about earth.... your line of thinking just seems to lead to a lot of problems if followed to its ultimate conclusion. /shrug

my thought--he creates universes and if he thinks they have possibilities for being good, or 'just' he lets them loose to evolve as they will. if he deems them dangerous or dark or failed, they fall back to the dark. i mean THAT is the literal definition of his job, as stated multiple times. if he creates a universe, that universe then expands into a multiverse almost immediately. does life grow on one planet, or another? possibility. so the universe HE created, evolves in BOTH ways and in a very real sense, HE was responsible for THAT multiverse. it doesn't mean he is the literal creator of EVERY CONCEIVABLE POSSIBLE universe though. it doesn't even make sense.

if what you said was true, it would also mean that while he was manifest in his future universe, in the league's prime universe now, THERE WAS NO POSSIBILITY LEFT OF ANYTHING IN THE WHOLE MULTIVERSE? no hopes, no dreams, no possibilities brought into being since he makes them manifest. that doesn't sound like a reasonable line of thinking to me.
possibility must end when he's dead (as he has been) or while he's busy getting ko'd by superman.

makes no sense to me. i think he is responsible for bringing universes into being, 100%, but i think those universes evolve in different ways after that, on their own, monitored by his brothers.

do you think he created the universe where it was possible he would be a leaguer? no, clearly, since it was something he never foresaw as a possibility. that's another entire MULTIVERSE he didn't create. his own TAILOR-MADE universe failed because of possibilities he didn't foresee or bring into being. again, evidence that once his universes have been released into the multiverse, they are on their own to evolve randomly, and out of his control, and possibilities can exist without his creating them. shayne? lois not shooting supes? possibilities that happened that he didn't create. an entire multiverse changed because of those decisions.

so how did he create his 'future' multiverse? lol i don't know, or really care. you want to say he blinked it into existence? no problem. i disagree, but don't have any problem because we didn't see it happen. maybe he looked at the future of a single universe and how it might evolve and created that universe and evolved it. i don't know and don't claim to.

if we continue to follow your line of thought, it seems like it necessitates a retcon, too. phil mentioned crediting him with all the infinite universes. but that initial universe was broken by krona. that origin still exists in hypertime. do we....throw that out? i'd wager that's not what snyder was intending.... or maybe you think AFTER krona broke it, wf THEN created infinite worlds, instantaneously? to each their own. easier for me to think wf brought that initial universe into being and it did what it did. that doesn't mean he didn't create other worlds/universes based on dreams and hopes and possibilities of beings living in those universes. it just means i don't think he was responsible for ALL of them. where do i draw a line? i don't. i don't think we're meant to look that closely. when we do, things like this happen.

phil also showed a scan where the league used element x to beat barbatos. element x is what the forge is made of--the metal of possibilities. this seems to imply the METAL of the forge is the true source of wf's power. just an interesting aside. /shrug

not claiming my view is perfect, or even right, but those are my thoughts.

tl;dr

ps--yes, he could have replaced the multiverse, clearly, but like i said, that is a very specific feat he can't do at will. and he can likely bring universes into being faster than frank. but in all this, we never really see what he can do in combat with his powers. at least we've seen frank in action. we'll know more as we go along.

WF can command them
He said that he rather the JL willingly join him

Franklin is solidly multiversal, WF isn't.

Feats,?

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Franklin is solidly multiversal, WF isn't. How is someone who can only conceive of universes one at a time, but cannot bind or anchor them to reality without assistance, a multiversal power?

Granted Franklin has some great feats, but he's generally capped at universal.

What makes him multiversal? Gotta prove it with scans.

There's really not much to "go over".

The only feat under Franklin's belt that could be misconstrued as "multiversal" is when he was implied to have created countless pocket realities during the Daydreamers mini. However, the caveats there were that he had to focus his power through Man-Thing to make it possible in the first place, and it was also stated that he couldn't make any of those creations truly 'real'.

Aside from that, he mostly just dabbles in creating individual pocket realities here and there... And like I mentioned earlier, it was explicitly confirmed that Franklin is still operating decisively within the universal tier:
https://i.imgur.com/FQNPmVi.jpg


So if there is more recent proof that he is generally portrayed as "solidly multiversal"(ie. affecting an infinite amount of full-scale universes simultaneously), I sure would like to see it.

I don't understand what the point of this thread is at this point, since it's obvious at the lowballest of lowaballs in the lowball land, Franklin still is just not as powerful.

It's like making a Superman vs Luke Cage thread, and then arguing whether or not Superman is a trillion or quintillion times stronger - the end result is still the same.

WF creating Hypertime certainly makes sense, as the alternative would have been Hypertime inextricably *poofing* itself into existence... And randomness like that doesn't seem to be what Morrison/Snyder are going for with current cosmology(which has a very distinct order to it.)

Definitely nice to have explicit/incontrovertible evidence that WF...and WF alone...created it, though. Good precog by Phil for sure.

Maybe we should wait an see how well he does against Apex Lex. Without a solid plan, WF and the entire Justice squad were going to be gutted according to Starman. But, what about the Shaper of Worlds? Is he multiversal as well?