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all characters are at their peaks.

how does it go?

Team 2.

Mxy is above all things.

Team 1.

Mxy's insanely haxx 'meta' status(coupled with the best feats a comic book character can possibly achieve) makes it hard to say, but in general I'd probably side with team 1.

those 4 are probably the most powerful nigh-omnipotent characters in comics

Originally posted by MrMind
those 4 are probably the most powerful nigh-omnipotent characters in comics

The yellow aliens form Animal man should technically be stronger.

Then again, the Mxy twins did the same thing.🤔

Team 2 wins in a horrific stomp. dance

beyonder is the weakest one out of the 4

... ah, the american sense of humor. ...

... You rock! ...

Originally posted by Mr Master
Team 2 wins in a horrific stomp. dance

Originally posted by MrMind
beyonder is the weakest one out of the 4
Uhm, no.

Beyonder is indeed the weakest of the 4.

Classic Beyonder solos. He's in a tier above Lucifer/Michael.

Originally posted by operator616
Classic Beyonder solos. He's in a tier above Lucifer/Michael.
No, he isn't. Despite all his talk, he has barely any feats at that level.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, he isn't. Despite all his talk, he has barely any feats at that level.

By talk you mean him being millions of times more powerful than all of Marvel combined? Because this was highly evident by his feats in SW2.

Originally posted by operator616
By talk you mean him being millions of times more powerful than all of Marvel combined? Because this was highly evident by his feats in SW2.
Yes, his best feat was shaking the multiverse. Parlor trick compared to Lucifer or Michael.

I think that Superman of Morrison or Geoff's interpretation is comparable to them because they put Superman as the origin of everything in entire DC cosmos.
Their Superman is above even Snyder Superman.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, his best feat was shaking the multiverse. Parlor trick compared to Lucifer or Michael.

No. Off the top of my head:

destroyed Owen's multiversal dome (capable of surviving multiversal destruction) casually like it's nothing.
The multiverse he embodies (beyond realm) is infinite dimensional and far bigger than the mainstream multiverse.
Shrugged off a blast capable of slagging billions of dimensions like nothing.
Made the asbtracts shit their pants.
Killed multiversal death
Destroyed several dimensions just by getting angry
Briefly destroyed/recreated reality (iirc)
Stomped Owen.

Let's not forget that Owen literally repaired multiversal destruction with a finger while calming down the beyonder (so in the midst of multi-tasking). Owen was also far and away above all the other abstracts. And the best part? Owen said that his power level compared to the Beyonder is the same as Captain America's compared to Owen. This is ridiculous unprecedented levels of power which Lucifer/Michael can never match.

Originally posted by operator616
No. Off the top of my head:

destroyed Owen's multiversal dome (capable of surviving multiversal destruction) casually like it's nothing.

Meh.

Destiny contains entire multiverse in his book. Fourth world itself is far bigger than infinite multiverse.

Compared to Lucifer tanking infinite demiurgic power like nothing? Meh.

Meh.

And got majorly weakened.
Lucifer destroyed dimensions by just existing.
Where? Michael was keeping creation stable atom by atom, second by second by his will alone. Far better than anything Beyonder did.

Meh. What did Owen do to make this impressive?

Multiversal damage? You're talking like the multiverse was destroyed. It wasn't.

That was sheer hyperbole unless you think Captain America can stalemate Owen or repair damage done by him.

You've shown feats that aren't even worth Spectre (Recreated multiverse in Final Crisis), (along with Anti Monitor destroyed creation and recreated it which was later retconned as being at half power) etc.

Like I said Beyonder is all hype.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Meh.

Meh.


What's with the meh? so casually destroying a dome capable of withstanding multiversal destruction and making all the abstracts shit their pants is now "meh"? So those are somehow less impressive than making reality shake (which you allege is his best feat)?

Originally posted by abhilegend

Destiny contains entire multiverse in his book. Fourth world itself is far bigger than infinite multiverse.

Compared to Lucifer tanking infinite demiurgic power like nothing? Meh.

Lucifer destroyed dimensions by just existing.


Destiny doesn't contain a multiverse in his book, his book is however capable of rewriting it. And what does the fourth world have to do with anything?

Nobody says it is. I was just listing feats better than "making reality shake" which you claimed was his best feat.

A single dimension, yes. While the beyonder destroyed who knows how many just by standing there and getting a little riled up. His mere presence was also altering the entire multiverse a great deal.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Where? Michael was keeping creation stable atom by atom, second by second by his will alone. Far better than anything Beyonder did.



I was under the impression that he did it in the avengers tie in to SW2, but upon rechecking it was merely a statement. He could have ended the multiverse via dreaming only since his imagination and reality were one. Personally i dont doubt that statement and we've seen Doom in SW1 having to deal with a similar thing when he had the Beyonder's powers. Though either way the spiderman/SW mini revealed that doom and spidey did in fact briefly recreate all of existence so there's that. You'll probably claim that it's non canon though.

But anyway... Michael keeping creation stable? pfft.. Beyonder literally embodies every atom in his beyond realm which dwarfs the mainstream multiverse. So congrats to Michael on stabilizing a droplet in the ocean that is the beyond realm?

Originally posted by abhilegend

Meh. What did Owen do to make this impressive?

Multiversal damage? You're talking like the multiverse was destroyed. It wasn't.

That was sheer hyperbole unless you think Captain America can stalemate Owen or repair damage done by him.

You've shown feats that aren't even worth Spectre (Recreated multiverse in Final Crisis), (along with Anti Monitor destroyed creation and recreated it which was later retconned as being at half power) etc.

Like I said Beyonder is all hype.

Yes there was damage across the entire multiverse and Owen repaired that with a finger. He also collected energy from all the multiverse to create a multiversal dome and removed every living being in the multiverse to a dimension beyond the multiverse with a last iota of his power. He also managed to transport beyonder's energies (which were millions of times more than all the multiverse) to the beyond realm. And he was far above the other abstracts too.

Even if it was a hyperbole (as in, not exactly true) the point was that Beyonder operates on levels unimaginable to Owen (he said so himself), despite how ridiculously powerful Owen was.

If you think that Beyonder wasn't far and away above all the other Marvel beings then you missed the point of SW2 tbh. It was clearly and consistently shown and stated to be so on panel. All the beings were literally microbes (outright stated) compared to him.

Also Spectre never recreated the multiverse in FC but that's beside the point anyway.

Originally posted by operator616
What's with the meh? so casually destroying a dome capable of withstanding multiversal destruction and making all the abstracts shit their pants is now "meh"? So those are somehow less impressive than making reality shake (which you allege is his best feat)?

Yes. At this level, they really are meh feats. Remind me, what had any of those "abstracts" had done which was so impressive.

Well, color me shocked.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11130/111302904/6135454-2646353195-58988.jpg

The book contains everything.

Its far bigger than multiverse just like Beyond universe was.

Billions of universes aren't better than infinite multiverse shaking though.

It wasn't many dimensions though.

Superman alters the multiverse by just his presence as well as shown in Doomsday clock , are we supposed to be impressed with that.

It is non canon, it's all ages imprint and the writer said it was out of continuity. Beyonder also claimed Dr Strange could trap his mind forever, he was all over the place in statements.



Congrats on Beyonder for embodiment of fourth world level universe?

Michael hits a level higher.

So he wasn't as powerful as Captain America relatively to Beyonder. Good.

Also, hardly that impressive all things considered.

Maybe, you want to hype both Owen and Beyonder compared to each other but it doesn't work that way.

Fortunately, DC comics don't come under marvel comics umbrella and thus the comparison is frankly meaningless.

Yes, he did. Explicitly so.

Originally posted by operator616

Several Beyonder feats:

destroyed Owen's multiversal dome (capable of surviving multiversal destruction) casually like it's nothing.

The multiverse he embodies (beyond realm) is infinite dimensional and far bigger than the mainstream multiverse.

Shrugged off a blast capable of slagging billions of dimensions like nothing.

Made the MULTIVERSAL asbtracts shit their pants.

Killed multiversal death

Destroyed several dimensions just by getting angry

Stomped Owen.

Let's not forget that Owen literally repaired multiversal destruction with a finger while calming down the beyonder (so in the midst of multi-tasking). Owen was also far and away above all the other abstracts. And the best part? Owen said that his power level compared to the Beyonder is the same as Captain America's compared to Owen. This is ridiculous unprecedented levels of power which Lucifer/Michael can never match.

Originally posted by operator616

What's with the meh? so casually destroying a dome capable of withstanding multiversal destruction and making all the abstracts shit their pants is now "meh"?

A single dimension, yes. While the beyonder destroyed who knows how many just by standing there and getting a little riled up. His mere presence was also altering the entire multiverse a great deal.

He could have ended the multiverse via dreaming only since his imagination and reality were one.

Though either way the spiderman/SW mini revealed that doom and spidey did in fact briefly recreate all of existence so there's that.

So congrats to Michael on stabilizing a droplet in the ocean that is the beyond realm?

Yes there was damage across the entire multiverse and Owen repaired that with a finger. He also collected energy from all the multiverse to create a multiversal dome and removed every living being in the multiverse to a dimension beyond the multiverse with a last iota of his power.

Beyonder operates on levels unimaginable to Owen (he said so himself), despite how ridiculously powerful Owen was.

If you think that Beyonder wasn't far and away above all the other Marvel beings then you missed the point of SW2 tbh. It was clearly and consistently shown and stated to be so on panel. All the beings were literally microbes (outright stated) compared to him.
All 100% factual truth! ... and ... owned !!!

Damn, you just made homie grab your back pocket and follow you around.

Beyonder's greatest feat:

Creating from scratch/nothingness, a reality quintillionS of times bigger

than the rest of the Marvel totality. wow

Originally posted by ibetroll

DC comics don't come under marvel comics umbrella

and thus the comparison is frankly meaningless.
Interesting, even thought Marvel and DC portrayed the companies as brothers.

https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/41752847_SAME.jpg

Actually, identical twins.

Same look, same size, same power ...

and as we all know, Marvel vs DC? ... They stalemate for ever.

Well, but in general, the DC characters are most powerful than Marvel characters, one of the examples is Mxy

When has Mxy defeated every,
actually even one powerful Marvel character for you to make that judgment?

The only time Mxy stepped into Marvel, he was stalemated by the Impossible man. (canon)

Mxy is the most powerful cat in DC. This fact is inconsequential concerning Marvel's powerhouses.

Originally posted by Mr Master
All 100% factual truth! ... and ... owned !!!

Damn, you just made homie grab your back pocket and follow you around.

Beyonder's greatest feat:

Creating from scratch/nothingness, a reality quintillionS of times bigger

than the rest of the Marvel totality. wow
That's like Dark Multiverse as per current cosmology, it's even stated just like beyond realm. Originally posted by Mr Master
Interesting, even thought Marvel and DC portrayed the companies as brothers.

https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/41752847_SAME.jpg

Actually, identical twins.

Same look, same size, same power ...

and as we all know, Marvel vs DC? ... They stalemate for ever.
Nobody said the characters within were all equal to each other.

Originally posted by Mr Master
When has Mxy defeated every,
actually even one powerful Marvel character for you to make that judgment?

The only time Mxy stepped into Marvel, he was stalemated by the Impossible man. (canon)

Mxy is the most powerful cat in DC. This fact is inconsequential concerning Marvel's powerhouses.

I mean, the Mxy's feats are the best feats in the comics (like WF)

Originally posted by abhilegend

That's like Dark Multiverse as per current cosmology,
Nah, that's like Dark Multiverse IN DC cosmology.

In Marvel cosmology, imagine everything in DC comics plus one reality.

That one reality lies outside everything else,
and everything else is like a drop of water if that one reality was an ocean.

Whatever that is in DC, equates to Shooter's vision.

Imo, while Mxy may be the top dog in DC, (at-least I think he is)
it's the PM that most identifies with the Beyonder. (in terms of character similarities)
Originally posted by abhilegend

it's even stated just like beyond realm.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Nobody said the characters within were all equal to each other.
I never said that either.

opr616 told you that all other characters were like microbes to Beyonder,
you replied: basically that the characters were not the same in both companies. Fair point.

but in fact, the entire Marvel continuum (what's considered the Brother)
was like a drop of water if Beyonder were an ocean.

This was Shooter's intent, and had he created Beyonder post-96,' that's exactly how it'd been. Simple.

No different than the PM being jammed into DC cosmology
as some character that is far bigger and embodies everything outside everything that was DC.

In Marvel, Beyonder was thrown in as some character
that was far bigger and embodies everything outside everything that was Marvel.

Simple.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW: For many yearS and I think even nowadays still,
the Beyond Realm itself has always been just as huge as it was during Beyonder's days.

Look at what Owen was capable of when he held the power of just the race of BeyonderS.

And the race were just subjects withIN the mind-bogggling vastness of the Beyond Realm.

The Beyonder, was the literal embodiment of that ridiculous space.

Well of course, infinite multiverse in marvel is somehow more than infinite multiverse in DC.

Might as well say marvel earth is equal to a galaxy in DC.

As per marvel cosmology Beyond realm is bigger than infinite marvel multiverse, in DC just the fourth world/sphere of gods is beyond the infinite multiverse.

Its just how things are, just because it chafes you doesn't mean anything.

Beyonder is a small cat compared to Lucifer/Michael. Deal with it.

You're attempt at reasonable sarcasm is poor, but I respect the effort.

So, skipping the poppycock ...........

It's just how things are in your head, and that's okay. Live brother.

... aaaaand Gibberish.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You're attempt at reasonable sarcasm is poor, but I respect the effort.

So, skipping the poppycock ...........

It's just how things are in your head, and that's okay. Live brother.

... aaaaand Gibberish.
As compared to yours?



"Jim Shooter's vision says marvel earth is equal to a galaxy in DC universe".

Who cares? Bring the feats or get out.

Now you're doing the ol' lying thing again.

Unless you're quoting the voices in your head.

Tell Harry and Sam to get out of your head.

.... although hint: they're not real.

What are you blabbering now. This is your statement.

Originally posted by Mr Master


Whatever that is in DC, equates to Shooter's vision.


Nobody gives a shit about Shooter's vision. If you have any proof that Marvel's infinite multiverse is bigger than DC's infinite multiverse, show me the proof.

As it is Beyond realm correlates to only Fourth World in DC because they are both far bigger than infinite multiverse.

Which has nothing to do with "galaxies."

So again, listen to me and not the voices in your head.

And, I never mentioned or alluded to the size of DC's multiverse.

But no surprise there, as you're not debating and instead simply lowballing per usual.

If you were being serious, you would've understood wtf I said. But no, Ever always ... no.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Which has nothing to do with "galaxies."

So again, listen to me and not the voices in your head.

And, I never mentioned or alluded to the size of DC's multiverse.

But no surprise there, as you're not debating and instead simply lowballing per usual.

If you were being serious, you would've understood wtf I said. But no, Ever always ... no.
Concession accepted then. Move along.

And "galaxies" was just an analogy.

I guess Lucifer casually warping the infinite Demiurgic power of the Presence to his whims(after tanking it detonating in his face) impresses me more than it does others. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
I guess Lucifer casually warping the infinite Demiurgic power of the Presence to his whims(after tanking it detonating in his face) impresses me more than it does others. /shrug

It's Michael's power, adding the "Presence" part doesn't make it any more impressive otherwise we'd be similarly praising everyone who tanked Spectre's attacks too since he technically also has "Presence" powers.

imo, rather than meaninglessly focusing on the source of the power we should judge it by its feats. the demiurgic power is capable of supplying energy to create the multiverse -- which is great -- but that's still nothing the Beyonder can't handle.

Why wasn't TOAA included in this? is Beyonder considered more powerful?

Originally posted by operator616
It's Michael's power, adding the "Presence" part doesn't make it any more impressive otherwise we'd be similarly praising everyone who tanked Spectre's attacks too since he technically also has "Presence" powers.

imo, rather than meaninglessly focusing on the source of the power we should judge it by its feats. the demiurgic power is capable of supplying energy to create the multiverse -- which is great -- but that's still nothing the Beyonder can't handle. Yeah, I'm not overly surprised at the downplaying given your opinion that Beyonder solos. I obviously disagree entirely, though(especially with the Spectre analogy, as every attack he generates is certainly not equivalent to Michael detonating.)

Michael embodied the infinite demiurgic power of the Presence, just like Lucifer embodied the Presence's infinite will. These aren't just 'levels' of infinity or w/e; these are the absolute peak of infinity -- the infinity of infinities. That said, utterly tanking the sum total of the Presence's demiurgic power detonating at ground zero(ie. Michael's kablooey), and then effortlessly warping that raw energy into a physical multiverse, isn't something I personally think Beyonder or Mxy are capable of... And I've championed Mxy here more than anyone over the years.

Don't expect you to agree, and I'm really not interested in debating it beyond this. I've had this discussion ad nauseam over the years and I've really ceased caring about it. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
I guess Lucifer casually warping the infinite Demiurgic power of the Presence to his whims(after tanking it detonating in his face) impresses me more than it does others. /shrug
"Infinite" power that only created a multiverse (I don't buy it considering the writer waffled back and forth in later issues but whatever).

Here are POST RETCON MM and Beyonder displaying TRANS MULTIVERSAL power :
https://i.postimg.cc/VJX7zsdm/6541887-9664904662-543402.jpg
Beyonder indeed solos.

^^ ... and their power is nothing compared to pre-retcon Beyonder.
Originally posted by Galan007

demiurgic power of the Presence, Presence's infinite will.

these are the absolute peak of infinity -- the infinity of infinities.
In DC comics perhaps brother G.

But in Marvel comics, beyond the peak of infinity

-- the infinity of infinities, ... is classic Beyonder.

--------------------------------------------------

Also, didn't DC cosmology at the top change? (Perpetua, PM, DM, etc)

Yeah, this is where we part ways. I definitely do not believe that Beyonder or Mxy are > the Presence/TOAA. Sometimes depth of power is more important than scope/scale of power.

But as I said, I'm not getting into this nonsense again. Opinions aren't going to change.

pet characters are always going to be the strongest there is lmao.

Nah.

Mxy is one of my 'pet' characters, but I still think he loses here. Just a matter of perspective, I guess. /shrug

Originally posted by zopzop
"Infinite" power that only created a multiverse (I don't buy it considering the writer waffled back and forth in later issues but whatever).

Here are POST RETCON MM and Beyonder displaying TRANS MULTIVERSAL power :
https://i.postimg.cc/VJX7zsdm/6541887-9664904662-543402.jpg
Beyonder indeed solos.
Trans multiversal power which doesn't even destroy anything but rather makes reality tremble.

Dream has warped entire creation by just dreams of a thousand people from beginning to the end of time.

http://imgur.com/a/pBsaT

And he is below Lucifer.

facepalm

That's from "Dream of a thousand cats in dream country" ...

and it has absolutely nothing to do with Morpheus.

Unless you're under the impression that Morpheus shaped the Presence.

https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/41769894_Carey_-_External_Forces.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop

"Infinite" power that only created a multiverse

Here are POST RETCON MM and Beyonder displaying TRANS MULTIVERSAL power :

https://i.postimg.cc/VJX7zsdm/6541887-9664904662-543402.jpg


--------------------------------------------------


LT states: Calm, restricted Owen is "one of the most powerful beings in all creation"

And this Owen is a joke next to unleashed Owen in this story.

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/41769891_Owen5.jpg

--------------------------------------------------


Both Beyonder and unleashed Owen are BEYOND Multiversal beings:

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/41769892_Owen6.jpg

--------------------------------------------------


Heck, even if Beyonder just dies, as a side-affect it would phuk up the Multiverse:

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/41769893_Owen7.jpg

============================


During their battle,

before they warped entire UniverseS across the Multiverse and the infinite MultiverseS BEYOND,

they: "spanned places of existence for which there are no human words or thought,
employed energies to which the raging hearts of Galaxies are guttering candle flames,
the laws of physics are tortured beyond recognition, and eventually shattered."

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/41769890_Owen4.jpg

============================


The writer gave us a few examples of the intent in his story by highlighting several feats.

Obviously he wasn't going to involve circular examples

when we get the point via narration coupled with the feats.

They affected every reality in every Multiverse. That was the writer's intent.

Below I posted a few:

============================


They created an alternate Superman:

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/41769887_Owen1.jpg

--------------------------------------------------


They blind a Watcher in another universe:

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/41769888_Owen2.jpg

--------------------------------------------------


They warp an entire universe by adding a Dimensional space to it:

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/41769889_Owen3.jpg

Originally posted by Mr Master
facepalm

That's from "Dream of a thousand cats in dream country" ...

and it has absolutely nothing to do with Morpheus.

Unless you're under the impression that Morpheus shaped the Presence.

https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/41769894_Carey_-_External_Forces.jpg
God is shaped by the humans in how they perceive him, it really doesn't mean much.

Presence isn't created by dreams, what an asinine interpretation.

Originally posted by Mr Master


--------------------------------------------------


LT states: Calm, restricted Owen is "one of the most powerful beings in all creation"

And this Owen is a joke next to unleashed Owen in this story.

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/41769891_Owen5.jpg

--------------------------------------------------


Both Beyonder and unleashed Owen are BEYOND Multiversal beings:

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/41769892_Owen6.jpg

--------------------------------------------------


Heck, even if Beyonder just dies, as a side-affect it would phuk up the Multiverse:

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/41769893_Owen7.jpg

============================


During their battle,

before they warped entire UniverseS across the Multiverse and the infinite MultiverseS BEYOND,

they: "spanned places of existence for which there are no human words or thought,
employed energies to which the raging hearts of Galaxies are guttering candle flames,
the laws of physics are tortured beyond recognition, and eventually shattered."

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/41769890_Owen4.jpg

============================


The writer gave us a few examples of the intent in his story by highlighting several feats.

Obviously he wasn't going to involve circular examples

when we get the point via narration coupled with the feats.

They affected every reality in every Multiverse. That was the writer's intent.

That's like Captain Marvel and Spectre fighting in DOV. This is a weakened Spectre mind you.

https://i.postimg.cc/0rVRwbzy/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/gnr9qmhq/image.jpg

Hardly that impressive.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Trans multiversal power which doesn't even destroy anything but rather makes reality tremble.

That fight caused transmultiversal damage :
https://i.postimg.cc/Wq45cmcF/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/PNf3DHvX/image.jpg
The Time Variance Authority was sh|tting it's pants trying to correct the damage those two did. The Time Variance Authority's influence and charge is OMNIVERSAL in scope :
https://i.postimg.cc/KvKgZVHB/time-manipulation-time-variance-authority-fantastic-four-v1-353.jpg

Time Variance Authority handles disturbance in time. Your own scan says that. But since you're talking about disturbance in time as a feat, here's a favorite of mine.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/TheLegion029-01.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/TheLegion029-02.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/TheLegion029-03.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/TheLegion029-09.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/TheLegion029-12.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/TheLegion029-07.jpg

And it was specified that it was due to how powerful he was.

http://i.imgur.com/GMoArxj.jpg

But hey, that just shows post retcon Beyonder is more powerful than pre retcon Beyonder if you want to go to FEATS route. Unless you show Beyonder doing such a feat pre retcon.

What the hell does that universal feat have to do with Owen/Beyonder's omniversal feat?
Originally posted by abhilegend

Presence isn't created by dreams, what an asinine interpretation.
Yes, the writer's own description is an 'interpretation?" ... And, .. "asinine" at that.
Originally posted by abhilegend

Hardly that impressive.
Yes, of course, warping realities and reality within realities across the infinite Multiverse,

and across the infinite MultiverseS beyond, is no big deal. facepalm
Originally posted by zopzop

That fight caused transmultiversal damage :

The Time Variance Authority was sh|tting it's pants trying to correct the damage those two did.

The Time Variance Authority's influence and charge is OMNIVERSAL in scope :

... But you know, it's Marvel performing here so ... dismissed!
Originally posted by abhilegend

Time Variance Authority blah blah blah gibberish.
Annnnnd the proverbial ever present lowball.
Originally posted by abhilegend

But hey, that just shows post retcon Beyonder is more powerful than pre retcon Beyonder

if you want to go to FEATS route.
fail ... Now that's "asinine."

Originally posted by Mr Master
What the hell does that universal feat have to do with Owen/Beyonder's omniversal feat?

Omniversal?



They made multiverse tremble, big ****ing deal.

Your interpretation is asinine.

Uh, what? Trans multiversal only means that the affect were felt across the multiverse and possibly beyond it but nowhere near omniversal level.

Right, says the perennial highballer of everything in marvel.

Cry harder.

One More thing, the "reality" was already an infinity of worlds fractionally different from each other.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Teq0t2hZ4CU/Vp3yPd2Y-CI/AAAAAAAARzs/yfnI5QzpN3c/s1600-Ic42/RCO015.jpg

So in effect, Dream warped the entire multiverse with dreams of a thousand people.

Originally posted by Mr Master
facepalm

That's from "Dream of a thousand cats in dream country" ...

and it has absolutely nothing to do with Morpheus.

Unless you're under the impression that Morpheus shaped the Presence.

https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/41769894_Carey_-_External_Forces.jpg Originally posted by Mr Master
Yes, the writer's own description is an 'interpretation?" ... And, .. "asinine" at that.
It is asinine, though. A plethora of on panel evidence(mixed with a dash of common sense) tells us that.


Sandman #18(the issue Carey is referencing in that post) introduced the concept that 'dreams shape reality':
http://i.imgur.com/QWkFwy2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EzRhw5e.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5AwmUkc.jpg
Nothing more.

However, implying that dreams are what shaped THE Supreme Being/Presence, implies that the Presence is reliant on the dreams of others to exist. This subsequently implies that Dream of the Endless holds a degree of power over the Presence... Which we know is absolutely NOT the case, as Morpheus explicitly told us where his power stood in comparison to that of Lucifer(who is obviously < God):

http://i.imgur.com/6lvKAX8.png


**Carey himself confirmed the same in the letters section of his Lucifer series(which also holds more validity than a Twitter post):
http://i.imgur.com/M2JHK0A.jpg


Additionally, if the Presence were reliant on the dreams of others to exist, then the dreamers would have to PREDATE him, which they canonically do not. First came The Presence. Then came Michael/Lucifer. Then came everything else. Per Carey, it was Lucifer and Michael who fashioned the original creation, ex nihilo...

Death confirmed this here:
http://i.imgur.com/jL3D9yk.jpg

Yahweh himself confirmed it here:
http://i.imgur.com/kCqJyI0.jpg

**Dreamers weren't required before this could happen.


The Presence was also willing to obliterate ALL creation "ab aeterno"(ie. from the beginning of time) just to start fresh again:
http://i.imgur.com/XuutcB8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VlVrw04.jpg
"NOTHING will die, because NOTHING will have EVER been."

**If his existence were dependent on dreamers, then he wouldn't be willing to casually obliterate creation/dreamers like that.

___________________


And further evidence(from Gaiman himself, in fact) tells us that Father Time and Mother Night were the first concepts in existence, and their union is what birthed ALL versions of creation, along with The Endless themselves, and most importantly: DREAMERS:
http://i.imgur.com/zE3ShhE.jpg

The pertinent excerpt:
http://i.imgur.com/rPN2Us4.png

**Again, the concepts predate the dreamers... Not the other way around. And that's according to the same guy who wrote the aforementioned Sandman issue.




Suffice to say: this, again, is why Twitter posts are NOT admissible as primary evidence on the forum. They don't override decadeS-worth of established on panel fact.

spot on as always

is there even a good reason why people are trying to lowball dc's god with a twitter interview? i mean should i randomly post this scan of marvel's god to prove how pathetic it is?


https://i.postimg.cc/65YF3KBn/Thanos-The-Infinity-Conflict-060.jpg


at least thats actually canon lmao

Originally posted by Galan007

However, implying that dreams are what shaped THE Supreme Being/Presence,

implies that the Presence is reliant on the dreams of others to exist.

This subsequently implies that Dream of the Endless
holds a degree of power over the Presence...
Which we know is absolutely NOT the case

as Morpheus explicitly told us
where his power stood in comparison to that of Lucifer(who is obviously < God)
I respectfully disagree.

The Presence is not dependent on dreamers or dreams, and Morpheus is nothing to the Presence.

Morpheus had nothing to do with "Dream of a Thousand Cats."

The concept of "dreaming' in that story predates the abstract Morpheus/Dream.

------------------------------------------------------------


In Carey's cosmology, The Presence is "God" infinite and eternal.

The only catch is, that the reason he is "God" all and forever,
is cause the sentient beings of the universe dreamed him as such.

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/41775751_Carey.jpg

A new history. He now predates everything, because he was imagined as such.

https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/41775763_Carey2.jpg

They (sentient beings) "changed the universe's history from beginning to end"

"So it ALWAYS was the way it is Now"

---------------------------------------------------

Both Carey's and Gaiman are atheist, don't know if yall know.

Evidently they're taking their own beliefs and translating it by mixing it with biblical bullshit.

---------------------------------------------------

Bottomline: As my original reply to ibetroll,
concerned giving Morpheus credit for the feat in "Dream of a Thousand Cats."

It actually has nothing to do with Morpheus or his personal power.

dude its like you dont even read what people post.

in careys cosmology the presence existed before absolutely EVERYTHING. thats why he had the ability to wipe out all existence ab-aeterno...... BEFORE ANYTHING EVER EXISTED just to start things over again. he doesnt need dreamers in order to exist lmao.

and like galaan already said- every bit of canon evidence tells us that the presences concepts like time and night existed BEFORE the dreamers as well.

twitter bullshit has no place in a serious debate. thats why its against the rules. if you keep posting that in my thread ill report you.

... at "reporting" me. ... wait ... lmao

I haven't acknowledged your existence since you were banned the first time for trolling.

Yet, I'll reply to you this ONE time, and never again.

Only because, you seem to delusion-ally believe I'll give any value
to your cheerleading secondary regurgitated input that he already posted.

It's just to update you how you can assist every member against me,
and,
I'll never give a rat's ass cause you'll be on ignore so I won't notice the KT cycle.

Back on topic. And back On Panel! yawn

Originally posted by Mr Master

------------------------------------------------------------

In Carey's cosmology, The Presence is "God" infinite and eternal.

The only catch is, that the reason he is "God" all and forever,
is cause the sentient beings of the universe dreamed him as such.

A new history. He NOW predates everything, because he was imagined as such.

https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/41775763_Carey2.jpg

They (sentient beings) "changed the universe's" history "from beginning to end"

"So it ALWAYS was the way it is Now" dance

---------------------------------------------------

Bottomline: As my original reply to ibetroll,
concerned giving Morpheus credit for the feat in "Dream of a Thousand Cats."

It actually has nothing to do with Morpheus or his personal power.
... It makes perfect sense with the Writer's own description and its fascinating writing.

It doesn't devalue the Presence because as it is,
the Presence WAS, and IS, and DID everything Galan already posted,
because history was changed and it became what "always" was.

Real trippy stuff dude. I like it. doped

Since this was obviously the very first creation, (in Carey's view)
a time when there were no sentient concepts or even the Presence,
this "dreaming" feat was possible.

Once they shaped the idea of the infinite/eternal Presence into being,
that possibility of changing reality via group "dreaming" was/is longer available.

Because NOW the Presence is all-powerful, and there's a Dream King,
and other sentient concepts,
because it all changed and this is NOW history.

ie. NO! ... 1000 random "dreamers" can not influence and/or affect the Presence in any way NOW.

Not 1000, not all creation dreaming as one. History changed.

The Presence was made manifest and became the shit, and ALWAYS was due to history changing.

------------------------------------------------------

I appreciate being able to look into this more in-depth
due to the discussion I had with the true debaters.

It's actually beautifully conceptualized Carey's vision. The thought wrenching idea is masterful.

always great to see mr master shutting the wank down

Originally posted by Mr Master
... at "reporting" me. ... wait ... lmao

I haven't acknowledged your existence since you were banned the first time for trolling.

Yet, I'll reply to you this ONE time, and never again.

Only because, you seem to delusion-ally believe I'll give any value
to your cheerleading secondary regurgitated input that he already posted.

It's just to update you how you can assist every member against me,
and,
I'll never give a rat's ass cause you'll be on ignore so I won't notice the KT cycle.

Back on topic. And back On Panel! yawn


... It makes perfect sense with the Writer's own description and its fascinating writing.

It doesn't devalue the Presence because as it is,
the Presence WAS, and IS, and DID everything Galan already posted,
because history was changed and it became what "always" was.

Real trippy stuff dude. I like it. doped

Since this was obviously the very first creation, (in Carey's view)
a time when there were no sentient concepts or even the Presence,
this "dreaming" feat was possible.

Once they shaped the idea of the infinite/eternal Presence into being,
that possibility of changing reality via group "dreaming" was/is longer available.

Because NOW the Presence is all-powerful, and there's a Dream King,
and other sentient concepts,
because it all changed and this is NOW history.

ie. NO! ... 1000 random "dreamers" can not influence and/or affect the Presence in any way NOW.

Not 1000, not all creation dreaming as one. History changed.

The Presence was made manifest and became the shit, and ALWAYS was due to history changing.

------------------------------------------------------

I appreciate being able to look into this more in-depth
due to the discussion I had with the true debaters.

It's actually beautifully conceptualized Carey's vision. The thought wrenching idea is masterful.


Cute fanfiction, but that's what it is. Let me guess, Dream was present in Cat world but Presence wasn't and somehow dreams changing the world to humans also changed Presence?

Marvelous, Dream retcons TOAA out of existence as well according to your fanfiction.

facepalm ... Morpheus's relevance had nothing to do with this story.

The creature taking the white cat through memory lane is the dream lord of cats.

That's not Morpheus.

It's why it's trying to change things back to when cats ruled the universe.

I'm sure Morpheus wouldn't want that lol.

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/41778815_cat1.jpg


It was persuading the white cat to gather 1000 cats and change the universe,

that was the point of it telling the white cat the story

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/41778817_cat2.jpg

---------------------------------------------------


But can a thousand cats change the universe like the humans did?

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/41778818_cat3.jpg

Obviously.

Again, history has changed and cats are no longer (and never were Now)

what they were in the original reality.

------------------------------------------------------------

At-least in THIS story! How it coincides or contradicts other stories is an issue to tweet Carey about.

Peace and love to the true debaters!

so you read one issue from 30 YEARS ago and a Twitter post and you think that allows you to dictate canon and cosmology despite the all the other evidence that blows your little fanfic apart?

what an unbelievable troll. I should definitely report you.

KT, calling anyone a "troll" is definitely ... the pot calling the kettle black ...

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/41784293_Picture_3.png

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/41784592_Picture_7.png

--------------------------------------------------------------


... below is the highlighted excerpt of the notes.

(banned for trolling ... not once, but twice.

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/41784294_Picture_4.png

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/41784295_Picture_5.png

-------------------------------------------------------


Ya, be mindful of bashing members with fallacious accusations of "trolling" ...

while hypocritically simultaneously trolling King style.

I ignore the guy tbh

Originally posted by Mr Master
KT, calling anyone a "troll" is definitely ... the pot calling the kettle black ...

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/41784293_Picture_3.png

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/41784592_Picture_7.png

--------------------------------------------------------------


... below is the highlighted excerpt of the notes.

(banned for trolling ... not once, but twice.

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/41784294_Picture_4.png

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/41784295_Picture_5.png

-------------------------------------------------------


Ya, be mindful of bashing members with fallacious accusations of "trolling" ...

while hypocritically simultaneously trolling King style. reported for off topic trolling

Dunno what's going on here, but the trolling, bashing, off topic BS, and backseat modding needs to stop.

Originally posted by Mr Master
facepalm ... Morpheus's relevance had nothing to do with this story.

The creature taking the white cat through memory lane is the dream lord of cats.

That's not Morpheus.

It's why it's trying to change things back to when cats ruled the universe.

I'm sure Morpheus wouldn't want that lol.

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/41778815_cat1.jpg


It was persuading the white cat to gather 1000 cats and change the universe,

that was the point of it telling the white cat the story

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/41778817_cat2.jpg

---------------------------------------------------


But can a thousand cats change the universe like the humans did?

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/41778818_cat3.jpg

Obviously.

Again, history has changed and cats are no longer (and never were Now)

what they were in the original reality.

------------------------------------------------------------

At-least in THIS story! How it coincides or contradicts other stories is an issue to tweet Carey about.

Peace and love to the true debaters!
Seriously? I mean, seriously?

Originally posted by Mr Master
KT, calling anyone a "troll" is definitely ... the pot calling the kettle black ...

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/41784293_Picture_3.png

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/41784592_Picture_7.png

--------------------------------------------------------------


... below is the highlighted excerpt of the notes.

(banned for trolling ... not once, but twice.

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/41784294_Picture_4.png

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/41784295_Picture_5.png

-------------------------------------------------------


Ya, be mindful of bashing members with fallacious accusations of "trolling" ...

while hypocritically simultaneously trolling King style. Good grief. Can you imagine being so obsessive that you have shit like this saved on your computer?

Where this thread goes-I'd say a fight between Mxy and Lucifer would be a stalemate. Beyonder is a nonfactor in my opinion.

Originally posted by LordGod
Good grief. Can you imagine being so obsessive that you have shit like this saved on your computer?

Where this thread goes-I'd say a fight between Mxy and Lucifer would be a stalemate. Beyonder is a nonfactor in my opinion.

On forums like this the profile auto notes and account restricted tag are only visible while the ban is in effect. So no, he had to screencap all those images while the guy was banned and then save those separate images to his computer in order to post them now........for some reason.

It's a really weird thing to do.


But moving on. Don't want to stay off topic.

Originally posted by LordGod
On forums like this the profile auto notes and account restricted tag are only visible while the ban is in effect. So no, he had to screencap all those images while the guy was banned and then save those separate images to his computer in order to post them now........for some reason.

It's a really weird thing to do.


But moving on. Don't want to stay off topic. So yeah like I said he only had to click on his profile to begin with.

^^ ...

------------------------------------------------------------

Good grief, ... another smelly anklet in the house?
Originally posted by LordGod

Can you imagine being so obsessive that you have shit like this saved on your computer?
Originally posted by Mr Master

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/41784294_Picture_4.png

It's quite obvious I'm the one "obsessed." ... ka-dur
Originally posted by LordGod

On forums like this the profile auto notes

and account restricted tag are only visible while the ban is in effect.
Interesting detailed knowledge about getting banned in kmc for a member only 10 days old. hm
Originally posted by LordGod

Beyonder is a nonfactor

in my opinion.
Exactly, therefore inconsequential regarding facts.

Not sure what you're implying, but I am not a dupe account. The mods are welcome to check my IP.

I have no clue who you are, and I don't care. I was just pointing out how unbelievably strange it is to save a user's ban notes to your computer and post them while having a debate with that person like anyone really cares. Just because they were once banned for trolling doesn't mean YOU aren't trolling now (which you clearly are.) You've just gotten lucky that none of the mods here have noticed it yet. Fret not though, I don't care enough about it to report you.


But yes in my opinion Beyonder is an absolute nonfactor here.

Originally posted by LordGod

I have no clue who you are, and I don't care.

I was just pointing out
Obviously you do care, or .. are "obsessed?" ... as you like to say.

"You were just pointing out" a bunch of off-topic gobbledygook swinging on my cyber schlong.
Originally posted by LordGod

Fret not though, I don't care enough about it to report you.
I REALLY don't care about your baseless reporting. Do you son. Wutevs.
Originally posted by LordGod

But yes in my opinion
Meaningless, in an arena of facts.

Saw your edit.

Do you honestly think it ISN'T strange to save someone's ban notes just so you can post them in a thread weeks later? Come on now. It's weird and you know it. Whats more, it is the epitome of trolling.

There is no excuse for that level of immaturity regardless of the situation. It is beyond petty.

Not trying to put you on blast here, but what I'm saying is true even if you pretend to ignore it.

Originally posted by LordGod

Do you honestly think
Poppycock.
Originally posted by LordGod

There is no excuse for that level of immaturity regardless of the situation. It is beyond petty.
Gibberish.
Originally posted by LordGod

Not trying to put you on blast here,

what I'm saying is true
Your "blasting" is as relevant as my iguana's farts.

The only truth here, is that you need to hop off my cyber schlong

and proceed with your absurd on-topic "opinions."

So we're keeping things childish and petty? Have fun with that ego, my friend.

mxy needs better teammate, beyonder has no business in this discussion, he's way below the other guys

power wise

1. Lucifer/Michael
2. Mxy
.
.
.
3. Beyonder

How is the original Beyonder a non factor? Operator gave a full canon rundown on how powerful he actually was. Even if people choose to ignore this fact, it will not nullify the canonical evidence. The Beyonder was millions of times greater than the mainstream Marvel multiverse.

Originally posted by MrMind
power wise

1. Lucifer/Michael
2. Mxy
.
.
.
3. Beyonder
How is Mxy below below the angels? He's already destroyed and recreated them on panel (along with all of DC).
Originally posted by Stoic
How is the original Beyonder a non factor? Operator gave a full canon rundown on how powerful he actually was. Even if people choose to ignore this fact, it will not nullify the canonical evidence. The Beyonder was millions of times greater than the mainstream Marvel multiverse.
It's crazy. POST Retcon Beyonder erased a concept across the multiverse and Spiderman with his power remade all creation in a billionth of a second. Yet the forum acts as if he's less than a Celestial.

Team 1.

Team 1 wins.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Team 1.

how do you rank those 4 prep?

Originally posted by zopzop
How is Mxy below below the angels? He's already destroyed and recreated them on panel (along with all of DC).

It's crazy. POST Retcon Beyonder erased a concept across the multiverse and Spiderman with his power remade all creation in a billionth of a second. Yet the forum acts as if he's less than a Celestial.

It's simple Zop. If the Beyonder was a DC character, Team 2 would win this, but because he's a Marvel character his feats become irrelevant. Therefore it's a game.

no it wouldn't matter

if Beyonder is a dc character, he would only be equal to the likes of monitors, the monitor realm/nil is the equivelant size to the beyonder realm. both realm make the infinite multiverse look like a germ.

and even then it would be giving marvel the benifit of the doubt because the original text was the beyond realm make a universe look like droplet of water to the ocean. consider marvel was a multiverse back then we assume it's comparing to multiverse (but marvel's multiverse in the 80s was no where near the size of later on)

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/12/125547/3344482-beyond-realm.jpg

and dc's has higher planes of existences dwarf the monitor realm/ the beyond realm

team 2 is only competitive because of Mxy, whose feats absolutely shits on beyonder by orders of magnitudes,

and even mxy is not at the highest ceiling of dc cosmology, that's where the angel brothers come in

Team 1.

Originally posted by MrMind
no it wouldn't matter

if Beyonder is a dc character, he would only be equal to the likes of monitors, the monitor realm/nil is the equivelant size to the beyonder realm. both realm make the infinite multiverse look like a germ.

and even then it would be giving marvel the benifit of the doubt because the original text was the beyond realm make a universe look like droplet of water to the ocean. consider marvel was a multiverse back then we assume it's comparing to multiverse (but marvel's multiverse in the 80s was no where near the size of later on)

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/12/125547/3344482-beyond-realm.jpg

and dc's has higher planes of existences dwarf the monitor realm/ the beyond realm

team 2 is only competitive because of Mxy, whose feats absolutely shits on beyonder by orders of magnitudes,

and even mxy is not at the highest ceiling of dc cosmology, that's where the angel brothers come in

When have Monitor's been able to erase higher level Abstracts like Death?