Cheetah vs Thor

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MrMind
Cheetah has tear of extinction and Godkiller sword
Worthy Thor
who wins

carver9
Thor bfrs her

DarkSaint85
Cheetah slits his throat before he gets a chance.

Magnon
Cheetah is too fast for Thor to hit or bfr.

Cheetah wins 10/10.

DarkSaint85
Also likely too strong.

Cheetah was already strong enough to tussle with WW. The Godkiller amps it's user's stats.

celeyhyga17
Thor

Hammer throw
Bfr
Storm
etc.

Not really sure about tear of whatchamacallit though

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Thor

Hammer throw
Bfr
Storm
etc.

Not really sure about tear of whatchamacallit though

It's a one hit kill weapon that kills Gods. Lex was searching for it for his Legion of Doom.

Cheetah used it to kill Poseidon.

celeyhyga17
How is it used?

Philosophía
I'll just leave this here:
http://www.multiversitycomics.com/previews/wonder-woman-78/

Sin I AM

celeyhyga17
It looks like her "will" is gone.
Maybe becuz the goddess love got murdered and that is having some kund of effect on her. She seems lost.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Interesting hax weapon. I'd rather Cheetah beat her straight up. And that "help me" scene is way ooc. Also I thought her bracelets were limiters? Without them she almost up or something

With the Godkiller, Deathstroke was fighting Superman. It is quite the amp.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
How is it used?

She coated her claws in it, and slashed Poseidon. That's it.

MrMind

ShadowFyre
I fee like multiple users on this forum hate read Thor comics the same way Trump hate watches MSNBC and CNN.

Philosophía
Originally posted by MrMind
Uncuffed Wondy is way more powerful Brain Azzarello's stuff has basically been retconned out of existence.

BrolyBlack

Philosophía

BrolyBlack
Ugh:/ I would way rather read squirrel girl comics then read about cheetahsad

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
How is it used?

https://static1.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Cheetah-1.jpg
.....
https://static1.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Cheetah-3.jpg

Mera, using ordinary water that had touched it, had the power to kill the three sea gods that invaded DC Earth (and this was how Arion and Poseidon had originally driven them off).

DarkSaint85
Then there's the sword.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/8/80103/4778466-deathstroke%20009-014.jpg

'Whatever's thrown at it, then doubles it'

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_medium/8/80103/4778464-deathstroke%20009-015.jpg

'The harder the attack, the greater the response'

DS was defeated, by Superman using his superior speed (sound familiar?) and ending the fight when he had had enough:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_medium/8/80103/4778456-deathstroke%20009-017.jpg

In THIS thread, Cheetah is the one with the superior speed.

Match starts, and the character who speedblitzes Flashes slits Thor's throat.

Thor is toast.

celeyhyga17
Bfr to somewhere unpleasant.
Storms.
Crazy lightning.
Hammer throw.

He has more ways to win.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Bfr to somewhere unpleasant.
Storms.
Crazy lightning.
Hammer throw.

He has more ways to win.

All of which takes time.

The gap in perception speeds between the two is too vast. One speedblitzes Flash before he has a chance to react, the other.....

And now, she has a one-hit kill weapon, and a sword that amps her.

Is he more versatile? Yes, of course. 100% agree. He has tons of ways he COULD win.

They all involve Cheetah standing around waiting for him to do it.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
All of which takes time.

The gap in perception speeds between the two is too vast. One speedblitzes Flash before he has a chance to react, the other.....

And now, she has a one-hit kill weapon, and a sword that amps her.

Is he more versatile? Yes, of course. 100% agree. He has tons of ways he COULD win.

They all involve Cheetah standing around waiting for him to do it.
How fast was she going when she "outreacted" flash?
He's outreacted "fast" characters many times.

DarkSaint85
Fast enough to slice him not once, or twice, but several times. Whilst toying with him.

She's also been called as fast as Flash.

We also have the official rankings from DC which puts her at like #6 overall in the DCU.

She also fights evenly with WW, one of the best h2h combatants in the herald tier.

So that's character statements, combat feats, and official rankings terming her one of the fastest characters in the DCU.

One of those pieces of proof, sure, we disregard. Two? All three together? If Thor has all three, then sure, he might have a chance.

But just reacting to speedy characters isn't proof. Toying with speedy characters, with multiple attacks, is.

Moreover, you are missing the point that she has her claws coated in one hit kill weaponry that's specifically tailored for gods. And is now amped.

Did the characters Thor react to have such weaponry?

celeyhyga17
You cant use reacting to speedy characters as proof? Who said you cant use proof as proof?

Its also backed by showings of quick movement, fast perception, and fast reactionary perception. Thats with actual numbrs and or estimations.
He's not your run o the mill speedster and far from it, but some are even unexplainable based on his regular showings.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
You cant use reacting to speedy characters as proof? Who said you cant use proof as proof?

Its also backed by showings of quick movement, fast perception, and fast reactionary perception. Thats with actual numbrs and or estimations.
He's not your run o the mill speedster and far from it, but some are even unexplainable based on his regular showings.

Well am just heading off any 'look at all these characters who have tagged Flash', in case you wanted to equate Cheetah to Grodd or Trickster or something.

And good to see that you're admitting he's not a speedster, and I'd far from it.

Cheetah ISa speedster.

celeyhyga17
Except like i said he actually has speed showings that are far beyond what he normally does. They even move towrds the realm of a speedster.
Im admiting that he is not your traditional speedster. I am however saying that he has no problem tagging and even outreacting actual speedsters. One doesnt have to be a traditional speedster to tag them.

Philosophía
Mr. Mind, is speed equalized?

Street levelers like Wolverine, Spiderman, etc. are easily faster than Thor.

This would be fair, if Cheetah purposely limits her speed to, like, Mongoose levels...and resorts to only hitting him with her tail or something.

With ToS and Godsword...she'd one shot him.

Mr. Mind, you're turning into Golgo. uhuh

MrMind

MrMind

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Except like i said he actually has speed showings that are far beyond what he normally does. They even move towrds the realm of a speedster.
Im admiting that he is not your traditional speedster. I am however saying that he has no problem tagging and even outreacting actual speedsters. One doesnt have to be a traditional speedster to tag them.

But as you say, even his high showings (beyond what he normally does, which I assume means 'getting owned by speedsters') merely move towards the realm of a speedster.

So him tagging speedsters is PIS.

Here, Cheetah only needs to cut him once.

celeyhyga17
Not PIS if he's done it more than once no? Backed of course by showings that help make this case..

Its like his other stats. It can very greatly with in any given showing even with the same writer.

DarkSaint85
It can still be PIS, especially when we have many instances of speedsters slicing him up (Angela being another non speedster who cut him like a pig).

Batman has many instances of taking herald punches. He also has many instances of getting hurt by street level Jokers and Two Faces.

We're not going to argue he's a herald leveller are we?

And besides, I am using your own admissions. Thor's HIGHS, which are BEYOND his normal showings (as per you), only MOVE TOWARDS a speedster's realm.

They're not even in the same realm as a speedster, IOW. And that's his high showings.

Now he's facing a speedster in a forum fight. With one shot kill weaponry, and she's amped.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It can still be PIS, especially when we have many instances of speedsters slicing him up (Angela being another non speedster who cut him like a pig).

Batman has many instances of taking herald punches. He also has many instances of getting hurt by street level Jokers and Two Faces.


We're not going to argue he's a herald leveller are we?

And besides, I am using your own admissions. Thor's HIGHS, which are BEYOND his normal showings (as per you), only MOVE TOWARDS a speedster's realm.

They're not even in the same realm as a speedster, IOW. And that's his high showings.

Now he's facing a speedster in a forum fight. With one shot kill weaponry, and she's amped.
Angela is a speedster of sorts... Or pseudo-speedster if i may.
They also made it a point of him being weak at the time after battling Heven's army..

Other than bullet timing or lazer dodging, has he thrown objects at lightspeed? Has he ever even come close to lightspeed + perception?

Like her he also has one move or one shot capability. And his is long range. He can see her from the get. How good is her eyesight? I know she has the definite speed advantage, but 5 football fields is pretty long.

Philosophía
Originally posted by MrMind
Wait till someone claims Thor has FTL reaction, then post flowery metaphor from Thor comics in the 60s as proof of feat Nah.

Thor fans know that if they get into an argument about Thor's speed, they'd get stomped. They've been so in every forum they've been, and they now know their place.

About....3 years ago, I think (though given how time passes, I might be off on the timeline)...I put the battlezone challenge with a ban on the line that Thor is not faster than street levelers.

The silence was deafening.

They're like carver....say random shit when it doesn't matter, but if shit hits the fan, they go mute.

celeyhyga17
Triggered as per usual

Philosophía
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Triggered as per usual ?

How could I be triggered...by facts?

Projecting much?

The invitation is still on the table, if you feel courageous.

celeyhyga17
Lol..
I either pmed u or replied on a thread ages ago. U said u would let me know when u would hav the time iirc. U never did.

So what will it be? What r u claiming? He has street level speed?

Philosophía
You're not IIRC-ing correctly.
Show me the PM, dear phaga.

That Thor is not faster than street levelers, in general.

I can start today.

3 months self ban? 6 months?

Do you want us to go for a year?

celeyhyga17
In general? We have to find a common ground.
Im saying he can be faster than street. Waaay faster especially if the story calls for it. It's happened many times before. It will keep happening if the writer calls for it. Not my fault it happens, but it does..

I said pm or reply via thread.

DarkSaint85
And Batman has herald level durability. Does this mean in a forum fight he can trade punches with Thor?

He can show herald level durability, especially if the story calls for it. It's happened many times before. It will keep happening if the writer calls for it. Not my fault it happens, but it does.

Philosophía
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
In general? We have to find a common ground.
Im saying he can be faster than street. Waaay faster especially if the story calls for it. It's happened many times before. It will keep happening if the writer calls for it. Not my fault it happens, but it does..

I said pm or reply via thread. What common ground?

Thor is consistently portrayed as not faster than street levelers.

There.

How is that not clear?

Again with the vague "not muh fault...teh writers...muh fault"?

What the f*ck are you blabbering about?

Or, wait....are you hoping to find 2-3 feats in his entire history of 57 years and tens of thousands of appearances that you think street levelers can't replicate, and call Thor faster than them?

lol?

Since your brain doesn't work on simple sentences like:
"Thor is consistently portrayed as not faster than street levelers. "

Let's try...

If you find me 20 feats, out of 6 decades and thousands of appearances, that surpass street levelers speed feats, I will self-ban for a year.

If you can't you will self-ban for a year.

-K-M-
Well that escalated quickly.

Philosophía
Originally posted by -K-M-
Well that escalated quickly. It's been a while since I made celey my b*tch, and made him forcefully support Superman for a month after losing the bz:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=643907&pagenumber=2

Time to pull my whip out again.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And Batman has herald level durability. Does this mean in a forum fight he can trade punches with Thor?

He can show herald level durability, especially if the story calls for it. It's happened many times before. It will keep happening if the writer calls for it. Not my fault it happens, but it does. Nah, bro.

Batman can take Thor's hammer.

It will keep happening if the writer calls for it. Not your fault it happens, but it does..

celeyhyga17
Escalating only in his mind.

Im smiling while having my morning machiatto. People get so upset about nothing.

@phil
And again I maintain he has the speed and reaction to contend with speedsters (just like in thos thread) when he has to.

How about let'd make it plain and simple.
U keep saying he's slow, hes street, his this, yadda, yadda, yadda.

I plainly say he has superspeed. Period.

Philosophía
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Escalating only in his mind.

Im smiling while having my morning machiatto.

@phil
And again I maintain he has the speed and reaction to contend with speedsters (just like in thos thread) when he has to.

How about let'd make it plain and simple.
U keep saying he's slow, hes street, his this, yadda, yadda, yadda.

I plainly say he has superspeed. Period. Running away, baby boy?

What the f*ck does 'having superspeed' gotta do with feats?

Wolverine, Spiderman and many more have 'superspeed'.

Again:
Thor is consistently portrayed as not faster than street levelers.

and

If you find me 20 feats, out of 6 decades and thousands of appearances, that surpass street levelers speed feats, I will self-ban for a year.

If you can't you will self-ban for a year.

Do you accept, or will you continue to try and look like the cool guy, while you're crying in your morning machiatto?

It can't get any more clear than direct comparisons.

I've set the bar so low that I'm asking you to show me just 20 feats ever since 1962 (!!!) that make him faster than street levelers. Thousands upon thousands of appearance.

DarkSaint85
I mean....Luke Cage has super strength, doesn't mean he's out-lifting Hulk.

There are degrees to it. And Phildo is saying sure, Thor has superspeed, but it isn't consistently higher than street levellers.

Philosophía
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean....Luke Cage has super strength, doesn't mean he's out-lifting Hulk.

There are degrees to it. And Phildo is saying sure, Thor has superspeed, but it isn't consistently higher than street levellers. thumb up

In THIS VERY THREAD he's arguing that Thor maybe would be able to handle Cheetah.

I'm not even asking him about that. Even though I should.

I'm saying that he is consistently not faster than street levelers, and that Thor doesn't have 20 feats in his entire history that are above what streets have done.

Imagine arguing a character can fight Cheetah, a Flash-level opponent, but being afraid that you can't show 20 feats that surpasses streets.

This is....crazy, lmao.

celeyhyga17
"Running away baby boy?" Lol.
Professor of Triggerednometry strikes again. Wutever makes u happy.

Again. Your "Thor is consistently portrayed as not faster than street levelers." is not jiving with what im saying here. Im not sure wby u keep shoehorning this stance.

Im telling u straight up he has superspeed/superreaction. He can achieve speeds way beyond streets if he has to. It's plain and simple.

You have this uncessant and unhealthy need to keep him at street for some reason. Im saying he is beyond them based on things he's done.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Angela is a speedster of sorts... Or pseudo-speedster if i may.
They also made it a point of him being weak at the time after battling Heven's army..

Other than bullet timing or lazer dodging, has he thrown objects at lightspeed? Has he ever even come close to lightspeed + perception?

Like her he also has one move or one shot capability. And his is long range. He can see her from the get. How good is her eyesight? I know she has the definite speed advantage, but 5 football fields is pretty long.

Yes, a PSEUDO-speedster (you may). Cheetah IS a speedster.

Am using your own words and arguments....

You said Thor's HIGHS, which are BEYOND his normal showings, give him feats that move TOWARDS the realm of speedsters. So even his highs are still below what a speedster's low showings are, at the lower bound of this realm. Approaching, sure, but still below the lows.

So to be consistent, if you are using Thor's highest speed showings (which approach a speedster's realm of showings), then we should use Cheetah's highest speed showings, no? Or does it only work for one side?

As for the vision....yeah, not sure what this is going to help with. Just because I can see a gun pointed at me doesn't mean I am able to dodge the bullet.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
"Running away baby boy?" Lol.
Professor of Triggerednometry strikes again. Wutever makes u happy.

Again. Your "Thor is consistently portrayed as not faster than street levelers." is not jiving with what im saying here. Im not sure wby u keep shoehorning this stance.

Im telling u straight up he has superspeed/superreaction He can achieve speeds way beyond streets if he had to. It's plain and simple.

You have this unhealthy need to keep him at street for some reason. Im saying he is beyond them based on things he's done.

And Batman is low/mid herald, achieving FTL feats if he had to as per the writer.

celeyhyga17
U can i guess.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
U can i guess.

Why only a guess, and not a definite?

celeyhyga17
I guess as in sure.. Go ahead.. No ones stoppin u.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I guess as in sure.. Go ahead.. No ones stoppin u.

But we all agree that even Thor's highest (which are FAR beyond his norms) speeds is still lower than a speedster's lows? And merely approaches it?

Even pseudo-speedsters?

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But we all agree that even Thor's highest (which are beyond his norms) speeds is still lower than a speedster's lows? And merely approaches it?

Even pseudo-speedsters?
Agree to what?
Why would that be? In comics thats not always the case. Wut a weird thing to say.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Agree to what?
Why would that be? In comics thats not always the case. Wut a weird thing to say.

Erm, because you said it.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Except like i said he actually has speed showings that are far beyond what he normally does. They even move towrds the realm of a speedster.

And I agree. So we both agree.

This is not a comic. This is a forum fight. PIS is stripped out.

Philosophía
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Again. Your "Thor is consistently portrayed as not faster than street levelers." is not jiving with what im saying here. Im not sure wby u keep shoehorning this stance.

Im telling u straight up he has superspeed/superreaction. He can achieve speeds way beyond streets if he has to. It's plain and simple. You're in a thread arguing that Thor would be able to handle Cheetah , yet you concede that Thor is not consistently faster than street levelers and that you can't provide 20 feats in a 57 years of publishing history of the character with thousands and thousands of appearances that surpasses what street levelers have done.

I'm getting second-hand embarrassment just from reading your posts, knowing that others also do.

What Darksaint is trying to explain to you -- with an iron patience -- is that a same case can be made for Batman being a low-herald based on feats under certain writers, but we're not retarded to argue that.

We're not.

celeyhyga17
Ughh..

As if it wasnt simple enuff. I am saying he is not portrayed as a speedster. He has however, showeed that he could contend with very fast individuals(like a Cheetah)if he has to. All this based on what he's done in comics. I even went further and maintain that he has superspeed and or supereaction. Again based on comics. Its very simple.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Ughh..

As if it wasnt simple enuff. I am saying he is not portrayed as a speedster. He has however, showeed that he could contend with very fast individuals(like a Cheetah)if he has to. All this based on what he's done in comics. I even went further and maintain that he has superspeed and or supereaction. Again based on comics. Its very simple.

So you are indeed, arguing that Batman is low herald, with this logic.

abhilegend
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Ughh..

As if it wasnt simple enuff. I am saying he is not portrayed as a speedster. He has however, showeed that he could contend with very fast individuals(like a Cheetah)if he has to. All this based on what he's done in comics. I even went further and maintain that he has superspeed and or supereaction. Again based on comics. Its very simple.
laughing out loud

Which speedsters are those?


Quicksilver has left Thor in dust.

https://s9.postimg.cc/z4dckyulb/image.jpg

https://s9.postimg.cc/4zovzlx7z/image.jpg

https://s9.postimg.cc/9ll07yqgv/image.jpg

https://s9.postimg.cc/o4s59dz1b/image.jpg

Monica has also made him look like a statue.

https://s9.postimg.cc/9a3jvbzrv/image.jpg https://s9.postimg.cc/xqlppt88b/image.jpg

Philosophía
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Ughh..

As if it wasnt simple enuff. I am saying he is not portrayed as a speedster low-herald. He Batman has however, showeed that he could contend with very fast individuals(like a Cheetah)if he has to heralds (like ww) if he has to. All this based on what he's done in comics. I even went further and maintain that he has superspeed and or supereaction. low herald strength and durability Again based on comics. Its very simple.

Do you understand?

Furthermore, I asked you for 20 of these so called feats.

Since 1962.

Above streets.

And you run away.

I ask you for consistency.

You say there is none.

So what are you hoping -- that you get half a dozen feats in 50 years, and that is enough?

You mean... like Batman as Darksaint keeps pointing out, and you keep failing to understand?

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So you are indeed, arguing that Batman is low herald, with this logic.
No

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
No

All I did was replace Thor with Batman in your sentences, and your own logic supports it exactly.

carver9
I dont get all of this bashing. It's ridiculous. CALM DOWN!!!

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
All I did was replace Thor with Batman in your sentences, and your own logic supports it exactly.

Is Batman your go-to person?

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
All I did was replace Thor with Batman in your sentences, and your own logic supports it exactly.
Not really. Not with what Thor's done.

@phil
Yeah. He consistently deals with speedsters. Not surprising because he has exhibited off the wall speed. Waay beyond street from time to time.

carver9
Originally posted by abhilegend
laughing out loud

Which speedsters are those?


Quicksilver has left Thor in dust.

https://s9.postimg.cc/z4dckyulb/image.jpg

https://s9.postimg.cc/4zovzlx7z/image.jpg

https://s9.postimg.cc/9ll07yqgv/image.jpg

https://s9.postimg.cc/o4s59dz1b/image.jpg

Monica has also made him look like a statue.

https://s9.postimg.cc/9a3jvbzrv/image.jpg https://s9.postimg.cc/xqlppt88b/image.jpg

Where in your scans did he leave Thor in the dust?

Philosophía
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Not really. Not with what Thor's done.

@phil
Yeah. He consistently deals with speedsters. Not surprising because he has exhibited off the wall speed. Waay beyond street from time to time. Any time you want to open that mouth, remember this talk.

And remember how much of a coward you are, with everybody to see

Enjoy your machiatto.

smile

celeyhyga17
Lol.. Coward?
R u ten? Seriously u need help.

Im waiting right here...? Thor is beyond street when he has to... He's shown it in comics.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Is Batman your go-to person?

Phildo, called it, lmao.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Not really. Not with what Thor's done.

@phil
Yeah. He consistently deals with speedsters. Not surprising because he has exhibited off the wall speed. Waay beyond street from time to time.

And with what Batman has also done, puts him above street, above meta level.

Comics support this.

abhilegend
Originally posted by carver9
Where in your scans did he leave Thor in the dust?
Lolwut? Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Lol.. Coward?
R u ten? Seriously u need help.

Im waiting right here...? Thor is beyond street when he has to... He's shown it in comics.
Why not all the time? If Thor has to, can he outrace say the slowest speedster, whizzer on foot?

celeyhyga17
K bak on topic.

I think Thor got this. Cheetah would be ported to Muspelheim or get swept up in a storm before she reaches her target.

Philosophía
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Phildo, called it, lmao. I wish I could take the credit, but celey being an embarrassing coward and carver missing the point are staples of threads.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by abhilegend
Lolwut?
Why not all the time? If Thor has to, can he outrace say the slowest speedster, whizzer on foot?
Why doesnt Gladiator attack with galaxies spanning speed all the time?

celeyhyga17
https://media.tenor.com/images/535b7f2016bf30e0c5b88f4e626add08/tenor.gif

abhilegend
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Why doesnt Gladiator attack with galaxies spanning speed all the time?
Well, whatabouttism at its best. Kudos.

I'm talking about regular portrayals, pick a comic for Cheetah, Superman, Flash and 9/10 times they will be shown as superfast.

As opposed to Thor who gets maybe 1/500 chances of being shown as merely fast, he isn't a speedster and you know it.

So Superman, Cheetah, Flash are superfast on average and Thor isn't. Or maybe you think 1/500 showings is Thor's average?

DarkSaint85
Carver is all about the average. Here's your chance to attack, Carv!!!

..he...hello?

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by abhilegend
Well, whatabouttism at its best. Kudos.

I'm talking about regular portrayals, pick a comic for Cheetah, Superman, Flash and 9/10 times they will be shown as superfast.

As opposed to Thor who gets maybe 1/500 chances of being shown as merely fast, he isn't a speedster and you know it.

So Superman, Cheetah, Flash are superfast on average and Thor isn't. Or maybe you think 1/500 showings is Thor's average?
Not saying he is a "speedster".
Has he moved incredibly fast and percieved things moving incredibly fast? Thats a yes.

DarkSaint85
Then that's just PIS.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Not PIS if he's done it more than once no? Backed of course by showings that help make this case..

Its like his other stats. It can very greatly with in any given showing even with the same writer.

Out of his thousands of showings, I'd say....if he has 20 of them, then it's not PIS.

That's like 10%of his showings, which is where I think 20 is reasonable. 20, over 60 years, so a speed showing every 3 years isn't too much to ask.

abhilegend
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Not saying he is a "speedster".
Has he moved incredibly fast and percieved things moving incredibly fast? Thats a yes.
In how many instances? Because if its 1/500 appearances, it's hardly useful here. That's just as much an outlier as Batman or Wolverine doing so.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Out of his thousands of showings, I'd say....if he has 20 of them, then it's not PIS.

That's like 10%of his showings, which is where I think 20 is reasonable. 20, over 60 years, so a speed showing every 3 years isn't too much to ask.
Lol why r u stuck at this number?

In reality all he needs is just a handful of showings that streets can only dream about.

DarkSaint85
Because I explained my reasoning? 10% isn't bad.....

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Carver is all about the average. Here's your chance to attack, Carv!!!

..he...hello?

I'm not in this convo because I too dont believe Thor is a speedster. I think he is quick but he isnt a speedster. I am about average portrayal though. Glad you remembered that.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Out of his thousands of showings, I'd say....if he has 20 of them, then it's not PIS.

That's like 10%of his showings, which is where I think 20 is reasonable. 20, over 60 years, so a speed showing every 3 years isn't too much to ask.

confused

I just dont get it.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
confused

I just dont get it.

Read the thread, I know a lot confuses you...

Stoic
Cheetah's chances of beating Thor are about as good as her chances are of beating Orion.

DarkSaint85
She has her Tear of Extinction plus the Godkiller Sword....

Stoic
Oh. Didn't read the OP. Well in that case. Off with his head then.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Stoic
Oh. Didn't read the OP. Well in that case. Off with his head then.

thumb up highlighting the dangers of not reading OPs.

Stoic
Yeah yeah lol.

DarkSaint85
Here's a summary of my (and possibly Phildo? I don't know)'s position, for the Carvers amongst us.


We ALL (celey, Phildo, hell, even Abhi) 1,000% agree that Thor has super speed and super reactions.
There are degrees to this shit, however. Luke Cage having superstrength doesn't mean he's wrestling a Celestial, for example.
Thor's superspeed and super reactions are nowhere near what Cheetah's are.

So far, so good. Everyone here believes this, even celey.


But what about all those speedsters Thor tags and hits with no problem?
PIS. EVERY TIME. If a slower character hits a faster character, it's always PIS. The best you can hope for is CIS - where the speedster held back. NOT a problem here, it's Cheetah, the girl who hates gods and cuts hearts out to eat.
Just because it happens in comics, doesn't mean it automatically gets accepted without question. Batman is herald level, based on this logic. Carver may hate my use of Batman, but it doesn't negate my point. After all, Toyman is one of Superman's oldest villains, and Weather Wizard is Flash's.

And that's it. Celey agrees that Thor is no speedster. And isn't as fast. Yet, we see him hit speedsters in comics.

That's PIS. Maybe CIS/CIP. None of which are present here.

Cheetah slits his throat before he even realises she's there.

celeyhyga17
K.. So we have this guy who holds back a lot. Holds back especially against who he normally thinks are "weaker" than him. He even holds back against fairly powerful characters.

He also has no problem tagging or even outreacting in some cases extremely fast individuals. I mean really fast, like light speed fast. Happens time and again.

This guy also has speed feats that even make him look like a speedster. Kinda weird and definitely not a usual occurence, but it happens.

He also has speed and reaction showings that street level heroes can only dream of. Again not a usual occurence, but it happens.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
K.. So we have this guy who holds back a lot. Holds back especially against who he normally thinks are "weaker" than him. He even holds back against fairly powerful characters.

He also has no problem tagging or even outreacting in some cases extremely fast individuals. I mean really fast, like light speed fast. Happens time and again.

This guy also has speed feats that even make him look like a speedster. Kinda weird and definitely not a usual occurence, but it happens.

He also has speed and reaction showings that street level heroes can only dream of. Again not a usual occurence, but it happens.

Point 1: cool. CIS is still always in play in forum fights. CIP too. Even when his opponents are fairly powerful. All you are telling me is that there's a good chance he holds back (and like you said, he holds back a LOT) and gets his throat slit by Cheetah. You also have the argument that HIS opponents can also hold back, but that's a sub-point.

Point 2: And has been punished by less. Happens time and again.

Point 3: As have many other characters. Batman being a prime candidate, but other Batfamily members have this too.

Point 4: Again, as do many other characters. Again, not a usual occurence, but it happens.

So.....if ALL your argument rests on is 'but it has happened in comics!!!', that's not really an argument. Batman has dodged HV AFTER it has been fired. See my point 3 in the post before yours.

Just because it happens in comics, doesn't mean it automatically gets accepted without question.

celeyhyga17
Batman cant do the more extreme speed showings though.

Or at least i dun think he can. Then again this is comics. Lol

darthgoober
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Here's a summary of my (and possibly Phildo? I don't know)'s position, for the Carvers amongst us.


We ALL (celey, Phildo, hell, even Abhi) 1,000% agree that Thor has super speed and super reactions.
There are degrees to this shit, however. Luke Cage having superstrength doesn't mean he's wrestling a Celestial, for example.
Thor's superspeed and super reactions are nowhere near what Cheetah's are.

So far, so good. Everyone here believes this, even celey.


But what about all those speedsters Thor tags and hits with no problem?
PIS. EVERY TIME. If a slower character hits a faster character, it's always PIS. The best you can hope for is CIS - where the speedster held back. NOT a problem here, it's Cheetah, the girl who hates gods and cuts hearts out to eat.
Just because it happens in comics, doesn't mean it automatically gets accepted without question. Batman is herald level, based on this logic. Carver may hate my use of Batman, but it doesn't negate my point. After all, Toyman is one of Superman's oldest villains, and Weather Wizard is Flash's.

And that's it. Celey agrees that Thor is no speedster. And isn't as fast. Yet, we see him hit speedsters in comics.

That's PIS. Maybe CIS/CIP. None of which are present here.

Cheetah slits his throat before he even realises she's there.
By your reasoning though, if Thor is a God and has feats to prove that he has superspeed, would it mean that every single time he gets hit by someone a street level who's not fast enough to match his high end stuff PIS regardless of how frequently it's happened?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by darthgoober
By your reasoning though, if Thor is a God and has feats to prove that he has superspeed, would it mean that every single time he gets hit by someone a street level who's not fast enough to match his high end stuff PIS regardless of how frequently it's happened?

What does him being a god have to do with anything?

Moreover, that assumes the street levellers can't match his high end stuff.

Edit: plus, that then becomes circular.

Thor is fast because he deals with speedster X. Wolverine is fast because he deals with Thor (who specifically comments on his speed). Mr X is fast because he deals with Wolverine. Quicksilver is fast because he deals with Mr X. Thor is fast because he deals with Quicksilver.

Etc.

darthgoober
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What does him being a god have to do with anything?

Moreover, that assumes the street levellers can't match his high end stuff.

Edit: plus, that then becomes circular.

Thor is fast because he deals with speedster X. Wolverine is fast because he deals with Thor (who specifically comments on his speed). Mr X is fast because he deals with Wolverine. Quicksilver is fast because he deals with Mr X. Thor is fast because he deals with Quicksilver.

Etc.
Logic and common sense. Supernatural beings don't have the same "baseline" as humans when it comes to judging their stuff. Batman and Captain America are both humans who frequently venture into the superhuman feats. We accept alot of it due to the sheer volume, but we also ignore a lot of their stuff because we recognize that it flies totally in the face of of logic even from an "in universe" perspective. But if we're talking about a deity, it makes sense to view their higher end stuff with less skepticism. After all, if we see someone who's supposed to be human outrun a bullet we tend to think "Holy shit that's impressive" but if we see a deity do it we're just like "Makes sense he's a God".

I didn't assume anything about anyone else's feats, I asked specifically in reference to people who can't match his high end feats.

Wait so to keep it from being circular, you're going to say that for some reason Thor specifically shouldn't get judged by the same standards as other characters? I mean if him easily tagging people with super speed means nothing, then he himself getting tagged and such should be meaningless as well regardless of it's frequency.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by darthgoober
Logic and common sense. Supernatural beings don't have the same "baseline" as humans when it comes to judging their stuff. Batman and Captain America are both humans who frequently venture into the superhuman feats. We accept alot of it due to the sheer volume, but we also ignore a lot of their stuff because we recognize that it flies totally in the face of of logic even from an "in universe" perspective. But if we're talking about a deity, it makes sense to view their higher end stuff with less skepticism. After all, if we see someone who's supposed to be human outrun a bullet we tend t think "Holy shit that's crazy" but if we see a deity do it we're just like "Makes sense he's a God".

I didn't assume anything about anyone else's feats, I asked specifically in reference to the one's who can't match his high end feats.

Wait so to keep it from being circular, you're going to say that for some reason Thor specifically shouldn't get judged by the same standards as other characters? I mean if him easily tagging people with super speed means nothing, then he himself getting tagged and such should be meaningless as well.

Wait.

First para: Gods are different. Judge them differently.
Third para: Judge all characters equally.

OK...but putting that aside:

Yeah, if the ones who CAN'T match his high end feats tag him, sure, it COULD be PIS, assuming no one was holding back (Surfer can hold back etc).

That is where we asked for a small proportion of his feats, to see what they're like. Having been around for nearly 60 years, with thousands of showings, one would assume he'd have the showings, right? And yeah, handbooks (though not generally admissible) can also be supporting, if needed.

How would YOU (you always nitpick with very little to offer) quantify if a character has superspeed, and if so, the degree to which they do?

abhilegend
Originally posted by darthgoober
Logic and common sense. Supernatural beings don't have the same "baseline" as humans when it comes to judging their stuff. Batman and Captain America are both humans who frequently venture into the superhuman feats. We accept alot of it due to the sheer volume, but we also ignore a lot of their stuff because we recognize that it flies totally in the face of of logic even from an "in universe" perspective. But if we're talking about a deity, it makes sense to view their higher end stuff with less skepticism. After all, if we see someone who's supposed to be human outrun a bullet we tend to think "Holy shit that's impressive" but if we see a deity do it we're just like "Makes sense he's a God".

I didn't assume anything about anyone else's feats, I asked specifically in reference to people who can't match his high end feats.

Wait so to keep it from being circular, you're going to say that for some reason Thor specifically shouldn't get judged by the same standards as other characters? I mean if him easily tagging people with super speed means nothing, then he himself getting tagged and such should be meaningless as well regardless of it's frequency.
laughing out loud

Even though its not valid here, even marvel EIC doesn't thinks so.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213476/4384797-tom.png
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213476/4386176-tom4.png

darthgoober
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wait.

First para: Gods are different. Judge them differently.
Third para: Judge all characters equally.

OK...but putting that aside:

Yeah, if the ones who CAN'T match his high end feats tag him, sure, it COULD be PIS, assuming no one was holding back (Surfer can hold back etc).

That is where we asked for a small proportion of his feats, to see what they're like. Having been around for nearly 60 years, with thousands of showings, one would assume he'd have the showings, right? And yeah, handbooks (though not generally admissible) can also be supporting, if needed.

How would YOU (you always nitpick with very little to offer) quantify if a character has superspeed, and if so, the degree to which they do?
Different races have variances in base stats, that's not my standard that's just common sense. A Kryptonian who hasn't been named outrunning a lightning bolt is far different than a human outrunning a lightning bolt. We don't assume that a Kryptonian needs to outrace a bullet anywhere near as many times as someone like the Punisher would have to to prove that he/she could do it.

Right, but since his high end speedster type feats includes things like digging a large trench around a large group of people that included Quicksilver(who was already in motion) before he could react I don't see too many street level guys matching his high ends. Especially if we omit things like tagging speedsters as proof like you seem to want to do.

Well any/every "super" attribute is obviously subjective to an extreme. I tend to view such things through a lens resembling what the forum considers to be tiers rather than try to nail down any kind of exact number because we all know that specifics change writer to writer and day to day.

Do I think that Thor would be able to go head to head with any kind of real speedster in a race, no. Do I think he'll be able to land anywhere close to as many hits against Flash during a fight between the two, no. But I also don't think that he'd be totally unable to tag them if he's on his game. I know the way super speed is handled weird in comics, but that's the way it's handled. It makes literally NO sense whatsoever for a character to be able to produce cold that goes below absolute zero, but we credit Captain Cold with the tech to do so. It makes no logical sense to destroy an infinite number of universes one at a time until there's only 5 left, but we don't say such a feat is impossible for the Anti Monitor. By the same token, it makes no logical sense for someone to tag another character with a much higher degree of speed, but it's an ability comics have granted to a significant number of characters. The way I resolve such things in my mind(this is just my method, I'm not trying to push it on anyone else), is to think of it as a difference between mental speed and muscle speed. Thor doesn't have the mental speed to throw or dodge as many punches as a good speedster, but he's still got the raw muscle speed to attack REALLY fast. For instance(and this is just an example), lets say Quicksilver can throw 100 punches in a second while Thor can only throw one punch in a second. But even though he doesn't have the mental speed to throw as many punches as Quicksilver in that second, his Godly muscles might still throw his single punch at the same speed as any one of Quicksilver's punches. In such a scenario Thor might be screwed if Quicksilver never let up, but if he dialed it back for even a moment Thor might have a chance to land an attack. Again, totally made up scenario and example to enplane how I judge such things just to try to answer your question, I wasn't making any genuine claims in regards to Quicksilver and/or Thor.

h1a8
The problem is perception.
A true speedster would view others (non speedsters) as statues or in very slow motion.

If that's the case then it is basically impossible to land a blow on the speedster if they are serious and fighting to full capacity.

And I agree that Thor's punch velocity or hammer swing velocity should be superhumanly fast. That's a good point.

celeyhyga17
This was on old argument made ages ago. Might have been odg and it goes soemthing like this.

Its always pis whenever he outreacts or tags known speedsters. Its never pis when he gets tagged by lower end peeps. Something to that efdect.

MrMind
Originally posted by abhilegend
laughing out loud

Even though its not valid here, even marvel EIC doesn't thinks so.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213476/4384797-tom.png
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213476/4386176-tom4.png

Brevoort understands Thor more than Thor fans, shocking

celeyhyga17
About perception
Yeah but in comics theres skill fu, space fu, kung fu, and in tor's case theres god fu. Lol.

Sometimes he just reacts fast enuff. Something seems like theyre moving extremely fast, maybe even too fast for him.. Be it mach 1000 or near lightspeed, but at the point impact or right before that point, he does what he does. Its happened many times.
Maybe its part skill, maybe part perception, maybe part physical stats..? Maybe all of them are in play...

He does have heightened senses however. Thats for sure.

Philosophía
Originally posted by darthgoober
By your reasoning though, if Thor is a God and has feats to prove that he has superspeed, would it mean that every single time he gets hit by someone a street level who's not fast enough to match his high end stuff PIS regardless of how frequently it's happened? Thor being a God doesn't mean anything when he regularly is shown as being slower/at the level of street levelers and his feats can and have been replicated by various people on that level.

Anymore than Wolverine 'being a mutant' or Spiderman 'being bitten by a Spider' meas that their feat count, while Batman's don't.

How long have you been arguing on KMC again?

This is a youtube-tier argument.

Originally posted by MrMind
Brevoort understands Thor more than Thor fans, shocking Tbh, in this thread, they've have ran away from posting 20 feats of Thor's since 1962 that surpasses street levelers' feats and acknowledge they can't prove Thor is consistently faster than them.

So...they know, Mr. Mind. They know. But it's easier for them to blabber about incoherently, while running away like cowards every time they're challenged on facts.

darthgoober

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by MrMind
Brevoort understands Thor more than Thor fans, shocking

Thor was never fast.

Wolverine blocked lasers and even ran past security lasers, nobody is trying to make him FTL in forum matches.

But... an idiot like Thor... suddenly gets a 35000x speed boost if some smellyhymen17 finds a feat of Thor THROWING A PIE AT HIGH SPEED... and Balder reacting much, much faster than it was needed for him to react, blocking it with his shield.

The deadly pie. Asgard's ultimate weapon.

Thorbags suck.

Philosophía
Originally posted by darthgoober
DS was saying that tagging a speedster if one isn't a speedster is PIS regardless of how many times it's happened. Thus if Thor has any "speedster" type feats, then regardless of how many times street level guys dances around him it's PIS unless they can at least come close to matching his(admittedly few relative to his total appearances) best speed feats(and DS himself was arguing against using tagging speedsters as feats so things like kneecapping Flash wouldn't wouldn't benefit the street level guys).

You're basically trying to support his argument that repeat showings don't matter by saying that repeat showings matter. I've bolded the relevant part, to make it easier for you to understand.

Since Thor is not consistently above street levelers and in direct quantity and quality of feats], both him and the street levelers tagging true speedsters is PIS.

Which is his point exactly.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Thor was never fast.

Wolverine blocked lasers and even ran past security lasers, nobody is trying to make him FTL in forum matches.

But... an idiot like Thor... suddenly gets a 35000x speed boost if some smellyhymen17 finds a feat of Thor THROWING A PIE AT HIGH SPEED... and Balder reacting much, much faster than it was needed for him to react, blocking it with his shield.

The deadly pie. Asgard's ultimate weapon.

Thorbags suck. Wolverine has had Thor himself admit Wolverine is faster, while in direct close quarters combat.

This doesn't count, btw.

darthgoober
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Thor was never fast.

Wolverine blocked lasers and even ran past security lasers, nobody is trying to make him FTL in forum matches.

But... an idiot like Thor... suddenly gets a 35000x speed boost if some smellyhymen17 finds a feat of Thor THROWING A PIE AT HIGH SPEED... and Balder reacting much, much faster than it was needed for him to react, blocking it with his shield.

The deadly pie. Asgard's ultimate weapon.

Thorbags suck.
For me, it was largely his trench digging feats. For all people talk about how street level guys can match Thor's best, I've yet to see a street level guy do something like dig a large trench around a speeding Quicksilver before he can react.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Thor was never fast.

Wolverine blocked lasers and even ran past security lasers, nobody is trying to make him FTL in forum matches.

But... an idiot like Thor... suddenly gets a 35000x speed boost if some smellyhymen17 finds a feat of Thor THROWING A PIE AT HIGH SPEED... and Balder reacting much, much faster than it was needed for him to react, blocking it with his shield.

The deadly pie. Asgard's ultimate weapon.

Thorbags suck.
laughing



Funny thing though, ull never see a street launch a missile at lightspeed.
Good thing u mentioned it. Gives me a an excuse to do this..
Eat it Stilt.
http://i.imgur.com/3DrQvdpm.jpg

darthgoober

darthgoober
Double post

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
laughing



Funny thing though, ull never see a street launch a missile at lightspeed.
Good thing u mentioned it. Gives me a an excuse to do this..
Eat it Stilt.
http://i.imgur.com/3DrQvdpm.jpg

He didn't launch anything at lightspeed.

It was probably J Jonah Jameson flicking cigars away speed, Balder just overreacted.

It's a non-feat and you know it. Now post the micro-second feat. Digging the stupid tunnel. Or Hermes feat.

All weak af and discredited on KMC. Thorbags are dead.

Superman fans rule this place now. I had to pick a side...

Philosophía
Originally posted by darthgoober
Which is where the disagreement comes in. You guys seem think that Asgardian's should basically be considered as human until they show something beyond, thus you view their feats with the same skepticism as you would someone like Night Thrasher. But Asgardians are a superhuman race so that falls flat. It's no different than insisting any specific Kryptonian show super speed multiple times to prove that he's faster than Night Thrasher IMO.

But regardless, I was simply pointing out to DS that he was trying to have it both ways by saying that a non speedster tagging a speedster is PIS ever time while simultaneously saying that Thor getting tagged is relevant. Because if he had any showings to indicate that he was a speedster, then everything else would be PIS just as he said. Now you're drawing false equivalencies and arguing against strawmen?

Nobody said Asgardians are human -- the same way Wolverine is a mutant -- but his feats don't count more than Batman's do.

Being non-human doesn't make you suddenly a consistent super-speedster -- nor does it make you feats count, while theirs doesn't.

We operate by feats, consistency and comparisons.

DS is right, in that both Thor and Street levelers tagging speedsters is PIS, and them tagging each other would not be, since they're all on the same level, far below speedsters.

Do you understand how your logic is non-existent?

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He didn't launch anything at lightspeed.

It was probably J Jonah Jameson flicking cigars away speed, Balder just overreacted.

It's a non-feat and you know it. Now post the micro-second feat. Digging the stupid tunnel. Or Hermes feat.

All weak af and discredited on KMC. Thorbags are dead.

Superman fans rule this place now. I had to pick a side...
laughing out loud

Replace that with any other kitchenware, it still would have been lightspeed. Dude was serious even bringing up an actual speedster (Hermod)from his pantheon.

Here... How much speed did he put on this small stone to replicate the force of a comet impact?
http://i.imgur.com/ArF1jvBm.jpg


Oh btw, I know damn well where ure loyalties lie.

https://media.giphy.com/media/vVk6b2x3Jx2dG/giphy.gif

Go bak to ure paymasters! For shame.

darthgoober
End of page lol

darthgoober

Philosophía
Originally posted by darthgoober
So in your mind, a Kryptonian lacks any kind of super speed until he demonstrates some? And any feats he does get need to be weighed against the feats of guys like Batman and Captain America to determine just how superhuman he is? If I'm misinterpreting the implications of what you're saying then please forgive me, I just want to make sure we're clear on it going forward.

And yes, being inhuman absolutely counts when it comes to the validity of feats, that's why Batman and Captain America are still only low meta. If some nameless human mugger punched Supes and knocked him for a loop with a punch I'd say "Bullshit". "Random League of Assassin ninja #8" surviving a full on punch from Doomsday will always be bullshit, "Random Kryptonian" surviving a full on punch from Doomsday... not so much. If Wolverine and Spiderman have identical feats with Batman and Captain America, we don't take Logan and Peter's as true, just because one is a mutant and one got bit by a Spider, and Bruce and Steve's as false, and say that Bruce and Steve tagging the formers is PIS. What kind of utter bullshit is this shit? Kryptonians are -- as I've pointed out -- a false analogy -- since the very definition of their powerset is that their physical abilities increases exponentially with the exposure they have inside the sun for all the members of the race. Stop this desperation with trying to move the discussion into fallacies -- even you're not that bad at this.

Being bitten by a spider, channel chi, being a mutant, being an asgardian -- none of these makes the speed feats matter more than others. Feats, consistency and direct superiority are what matter. In that way -- Thor -- and street levelers -- tagging each other is not PIS, since they're all relatively on the same level, under classical speedsters , and vastly, vastly, under more acomplished speedsters , and vastly, vastly vastly under the upper echalon .

Ergo, Darksaint is right. You are wrong.

In order to prove that Thor getting hit by Cap is PIS, you'd have to prove that Thor has the direct comparisons to street levelers in general that he is far faster and indirect comparison through qualitative and quantitative feats in his 60+ years history that he is faster .

As such, you're making argumentative fallacies all over the place, have no solid ground to stand on, and white knighting yourself into oblivion.

DarkSaint85
We've moved from 'its happened in a comic, so it counts', to 'even if it's happened in comics, let's ignore it because'.

Where does it end? Do mutants get more of a benefit of the doubt over aliens? What about mutant aliens? Do we allow for different alien species, so Martians get to be slower than Kryps?

What about Asgardians only having muscle density 3x humans? Does that mean Atlanteans, with their 10x muscle density, should be over three times stronger and faster than an Asgardian?

The average man can jog at 10mph. So an average Asgardian tops out at 30, and I call anything over that PIS?

Usain Bolt, our top sprinter, maxes at about 30mph, so the top Asgardian is 90mph, barring specific spells making them faster?

World's strongest man deadlifts 500kg, so the strongest Asgardian tops out at 1.5tons?

Aquaman tops out at 5tons, and anything above that is obviously PIS?

darthgoober

darthgoober
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
We've moved from 'its happened in a comic, so it counts', to 'even if it's happened in comics, let's ignore it because'.

Where does it end? Do mutants get more of a benefit of the doubt over aliens? What about mutant aliens? Do we allow for different alien species, so Martians get to be slower than Kryps?

What about Asgardians only having muscle density 3x humans? Does that mean Atlanteans, with their 10x muscle density, should be over three times stronger and faster than an Asgardian?

The average man can jog at 10mph. So an average Asgardian tops out at 30, and I call anything over that PIS?

Usain Bolt, our top sprinter, maxes at about 30mph, so the top Asgardian is 90mph, barring specific spells making them faster?

World's strongest man deadlifts 500kg, so the strongest Asgardian tops out at 1.5tons?

Aquaman tops out at 5tons, and anything above that is obviously PIS?
Uh yeah DS... debating comics is subjective... it's ALWAYS subjective. No one(mod or member) will ever be able to create some kind of mathematical formula in regards to how things work because the medium we're discussing is as inconsistent of a medium as one could ever find. The subjectivity is what makes the debates fun, this place would be a graveyard if a Thor vs Hulk thread got boiled down to numbers so plain that everyone who posted basically just agreed to read off the final sum of the equation.

I can't speak for where others draw the line when it comes to interpreting how the forum rules should be applied in individual debates, but personally I try to let logic and common sense be my guide because when I first joined and Digi was a mod that's basically how such things were determined by him and I've always liked that precept. Obviously, that kind of thing has a huge potential for variance from person to person but I prefer the idea of making that attempt than I do making an attempt at getting the mods to draw up some kind of ultra detailed debate formula so clear that no one ever disagrees on how to interpret the rules lol

Philosophía
Originally posted by darthgoober
And all Asgardians are naturally superhuman across the board(though to varying degrees). You may not like it, but it is what it is. That's not to say that the average Asgardian is anywhere close to the average powered up Kryptonian physically, but they're naturally superhuman when compared to the typical Earth resident. It's a basic part of being Asgardian. So yes, we judge Asgardianfeats in a manner more similar to the way we judge Kryptonians than typical human beings. An Asguardian doesn't have to take as many beatings from cl100 characters as Captain America to prove that he could survive such a beating because the idea that a deity(like a Kryptonian) could withstand such thing doesn't require the same level of suspension of disbelief as Cap doing the same.

Also, you seem to be trying to debate the exact level of Thor's speed with me but that's not actually something I'm trying to support one way or the other. However, just to put it out there so that we're debating a solid position and less of your stuff goes unanswered, I would say that Thor digging a large trench around a speeding Quicksilver before he can react would exceed the speed feats of any "street" level hero like Spiderman, Captain America, or Wolverine. You can totally disagree of course, I was just putting forth an example of why I keep mentioning that I don't think the street level guys can match his best stuff. We don't judge an average asgardian - in terms of speed , as superior to street levelers.

Do we?

There's nothing intrinsic to Asgardians that makes them speedsters, or superior to the likes of Batman, Captain America, Spiderman, Wolverine, Iron Fist, Deathstroke, Midnighter, Batgirl, etc. etc. etc.

Or taskmaster:


http://i.imgur.com/OeNtDvx.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/lobSHBi.jpg

So we don't judge Thor either.

Now, my dear friend, you know I'm not the type to let you slide away, since I know you're quite slippery when cornered.

So.

If Wolverine and Spiderman have identical feats with Batman and Captain America, we don't take Logan and Peter's as true, just because one is a mutant and one got bit by a Spider, and Bruce and Steve's as false, and say that Bruce and Steve tagging the formers is PIS.

Your position on this was hilarious, so nice to see you try to side step away now thumb up

Furthermore, I let it go since you weren't talking to me, but was your position that a feat done 40 years ago where Thor digs a trench by flying in a circle spinning his hammer turns this whole discussion on his head?

Originally posted by darthgoober
For me, it was largely his trench digging feats.

Trench digging by flying in a circle with his hammer spinning?

Convinces you more than Thor admitting Wolverine is faster?

Really?

More than Mongoose speedblitzing him?

Than Spiderman?

Than Daredevil?

Are you serious?

You judge characters not by their overall, but by one feat, and even that not impressive?

lmao, Goob. Simply lmao.

darthgoober

celeyhyga17
He traps everyone including QS who was already speeding.
First he had to move quicker and outreact QS. Second, he directs the hammer's circular movement in a relatively small distance. This he had to do extremely fast because again even QS could not outspeed him. Also him spinning the hammer is a testament to the speed of his limbs. He gets out of the hammer how much he puts in. At the very least the initial thrust.
http://i.imgur.com/O2KNTqLm.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/V293p1Km.png

Philosophía
Originally posted by darthgoober
I do judge the average Asgardian as being superhuman. I don't judge the average human to be superhuman. Thus, Asgardians get more leeway than humans when judging their feats IMO, just as you give Kryptonians that same type of benefit of a doubt. That doesn't mean that I credit individual random Asgardians with anything specific in relation to other characters, it just means that I'm less skeptical of their feats. If Captain America punched a no name human thug as hard as he possibly could and the thug totally tanked it without flinching I would consider that to be a low end showing for Cap, if the same thing happened against an Asgardian... wouldn't mean a damn thing to me. I legitimately had to check if I accidentally clicked on the previous page because I feel like I'm in groundhog day. You just wasted my time, goob. Thanks, I guess.

h1a8
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
About perception
Yeah but in comics theres skill fu, space fu, kung fu, and in tor's case theres god fu. Lol.

Sometimes he just reacts fast enuff. Something seems like theyre moving extremely fast, maybe even too fast for him.. Be it mach 1000 or near lightspeed, but at the point impact or right before that point, he does what he does. Its happened many times.
Maybe its part skill, maybe part perception, maybe part physical stats..? Maybe all of them are in play...

He does have heightened senses however. Thats for sure.

Thor definitely has superspeed and perceptions.
He can use the hammer to shield against handgun bullets and energy blasts (not necessarily light speed) from a distance of 30ft or more.

The problem is that Thor only needs to move his hammer a few inches when the object travels more than 30ft away. In other words, Thor has to move less than 30x slower to achieve a deflection.

Speedsters fighting Thor from close range would be a problem. Plus objects don't change their mind in mid air after seeing Thor is moving to block it. A speedster can be headed towards Thor from a distance. They see Thor moving slowly to intercept their path. The speedster reroutes and strikes Thor from a different angle before Thor can alter his motion significantly enough.

h1a8
Originally posted by darthgoober
Which is where the disagreement comes in. You guys seem think that Asgardian's should basically be considered as human until they show something beyond, thus you view their feats with the same skepticism as you would someone like Night Thrasher. But Asgardians are a superhuman race so that falls flat. It's no different than insisting any specific Kryptonian show super speed multiple times to prove that he's faster than Night Thrasher IMO. Inherently inhuman characters have a lower bar to reach when it comes to supporting their inhuman abilities IMO.

But regardless, I was simply pointing out to DS that he was trying to have it both ways by saying that a non speedster tagging a speedster is PIS ever time while simultaneously saying that Thor getting tagged is relevant. Because if he had any showings to indicate that he was a speedster, then everything else would be PIS just as he said.

But Asgardians are made up of a bunch of different races. And many having different and unique abilities. So your Kryptonian analogy is faulty.

Asgardians are superhuman in strength and durability but not necessarily speed (they vary in that regard). Now Asgardians may possess superspeed, like Thor but it's not necessarily on the level of a true speedster. Remember, there are many levels of superspeed. I doubt anyone is saying that Thor does not have any form of superspeed.

darthgoober

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by h1a8
Thor definitely has superspeed and perceptions.
He can use the hammer to shield against handgun bullets and energy blasts (not necessarily light speed) from a distance of 30ft or more.
Perceptions definitely beyond streets..
http://i.imgur.com/vAUHQQYm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/JGfceZgm.jpg

Originally posted by h1a8

The problem is that Thor only needs to move his hammer a few inches when the object travels more than 30ft away. In other words, Thor has to move less than 30x slower to achieve a deflection.

Speedsters fighting Thor from close range would be a problem. Plus objects don't change their mind in mid air after seeing Thor is moving to block it. A speedster can be headed towards Thor from a distance. They see Thor moving slowly to intercept their path. The speedster reroutes and strikes Thor from a different angle before Thor can alter his motion significantly enough.
He is moving slowly to them. He's basically a statue. They go for the kill. Next thing u know, theyre on the ground massaging their jaw and asking themselves "wtf!?"

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Perceptions definitely beyond streets..
http://i.imgur.com/vAUHQQYm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/JGfceZgm.jpg


He is moving slowly to them. He's basically a statue. They go for the kill. Next thing u know, theyre on the ground massaging their jaw and asking themselves "wtf!?"

RIP Classic Marvel.

Don’t bother with H1. I could fill an entire page with Asgardian perception feats and it wouldn’t matter.

celeyhyga17
H1 is my friend.

h1a8
Originally posted by darthgoober
Alright then... lol


My bad, I'm not using "Asgardian" to include things like trolls or elves, I'm talking strictly about the Gods.

But again, they are still different races with unique abilities. Loki is a frost giant that knows magic. Heimdall has unique abilities and isn't of the same race as Thor (DNA wise). In other words, Asgardians that look like humans don't necessarily have the DNA to say they are the same species.

All Asgardians are super strong and durable. Some Asgardians have some degree of superspeed (such as Thor). Being strong and fast does not make you automatically a speedster.

Make no mistake. No one here is saying that Thor do not have superhuman level speed and reactions (he does). It's just not to the level of say a true speedster (quicksilver, flash, cheetah, etc).

h1a8
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Perceptions definitely beyond streets..
http://i.imgur.com/vAUHQQYm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/JGfceZgm.jpg


He is moving slowly to them. He's basically a statue. They go for the kill. Next thing u know, theyre on the ground massaging their jaw and asking themselves "wtf!?"

Yes Thor has superhuman level reactions and perceptions and speed.
No one is saying otherwise.

If anyone is hit by a slow motion entity or a statue while being aware of their motion then it is PIS.

AlbertoJohnAvil
Thor Faces Beings Allegedly faster then Cheetah Regularly(Gladiator,SS etc)..he has Godly Perception...saying she "Speedbliz" him is like saying she does it to Odin or Zeus...Not Happening..Thor is Part Elder God also...When are ppl gonna stop putting him in these Tiers..smh..Stop Judging him off Battles on Earth where he Holding back..Dude fights Destroyer, Mangog,Loki,Surtur,Glory..etc.

I'm sure you wouldn't do a "Cheetah vs Surtur match"

You may say this Jane..but its STILL THORS powers...If Batman Gets Flash powers and Goes 10x the Speed of Light,Pretty safe to Say Flash can do the same..but Only the Non logical would dispute that

https://i.postimg.cc/Bt25ZWjS/chea.jpg

AND its a Combat speed feat vs Someone well beyond Cheetah Tier.

darthgoober
Originally posted by h1a8
But again, they are still different races with unique abilities. Loki is a frost giant that knows magic. Heimdall has unique abilities and isn't of the same race as Thor (DNA wise). In other words, Asgardians that look like humans don't necessarily have the DNA to say they are the same species.

All Asgardians are super strong and durable. Some Asgardians have some degree of superspeed (such as Thor). Being strong and fast does not make you automatically a speedster.

Make no mistake. No one here is saying that Thor do not have superhuman level speed and reactions (he does). It's just not to the level of say a true speedster (quicksilver, flash, cheetah, etc).
Frost Giant's aren't God's and obviosly wouldn't qualify. And I know the abilities of Asgardian's vary. My point is that because they're Gods superhuman feats aren't a stretch for them the way it is for humans.

You yourself view things a little differently than DS and phil so I'm going to use an example for you that's not really applicable to their stance(and if I misunderstand your general opinions please forgive me and feel free to correct the errors). You believe that anytime Batman or Cap do something like outrun a bullet or keep pace with someone like Spiderman that it's PIS, correct? You believe this because they're human and therefor by definition don't have superhuman speed, correct? Well Thor himself is a God which would bring him out of that basic category of being limited by being human. You yourself earlier acknowledged that he DOES have superhuman speed. I'm not talking about attributing any feats to Asgardians that they don't show, I'm talking about view their feats with less skepticism than Humans, which is what you do anyway(although personally, I give guys like Cap and Bats a little more slack than you).

-K-M-
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
RIP Classic Marvel.

Don’t bother with H1. I could fill an entire page with Asgardian perception feats and it wouldn’t matter.

Welcome back Rage

darthgoober
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Thor Faces Beings Allegedly faster then Cheetah Regularly(Gladiator,SS etc)..he has Godly Perception...saying she "Speedbliz" him is like saying she does it to Odin or Zeus...Not Happening..Thor is Part Elder God also...When are ppl gonna stop putting him in these Tiers..smh..Stop Judging him off Battles on Earth where he Holding back..Dude fights Destroyer, Mangog,Loki,Surtur,Glory..etc.

I'm sure you wouldn't do a "Cheetah vs Surtur match"

You may say this Jane..but its STILL THORS powers...If Batman Gets Flash powers and Goes 10x the Speed of Light,Pretty safe to Say Flash can do the same..but Only the Non logical would dispute that

https://i.postimg.cc/Bt25ZWjS/chea.jpg

AND its a Combat speed feat vs Someone well beyond Cheetah Tier.
If you wanted to use virtually any Thor clone but Jane that way I might not say anything, but when it comes to Jane I have to disagree. Yes, she "Has Thor's powers", but the way that arc was written she got those powers from the Motherstorm... who liked her more than she liked Thor. Thor himself noted that his hammer was doing stuff for Jane that it never did for him, and that throws a fair amount of shade on the situation.

Don't get me wrong because I understand that there's a logical argument that can be made to support him still being her physical equal, I'm just saying that it's not a stance that's going to be worth arguing. It won't be like transferring feats from a low level GL to Hal, it'd be like transferring feats from Kyle to Hal when Kyle has his own strengths over Hal. The best you'll get is "Maybe, but he needs to at least do something close" in both cases. Masterson would be no problem and you MIGHT be able to convince someone to give Thor access to some of BRB's stuff, but with Jane there are too many precedents against that kind of thing in regards to transferring feats.

Rage.Of.Olympus
There would be no reason why Jane's physical feats aren't transferrable to Thor. The enchantment on Mjolnir transformed her into Thor, she didn't get her powers from the MS, I think you're misunderstanding their relationship. The magic on Mjolnir is like a magic cloning technique IIRC.

The Mother Storm "awakened" which is why Mjolnir was doing all the crazy flying, but that's an entirely separate beast.

Side note: BRB, and all other Thor clones, get transformed and are given the powers of Thor, because a piece of Thor's "godly essence" was taken by Odin to grant them separate enchantments. Hence the "Blood and Thunder" arc.

Side side note: Thor channelled the MS to resurrect Jane. She only summoned it like a genie.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
There would be no reason why Jane's physical feats aren't transferrable to Thor. The enchantment on Mjolnir transformed her into Thor, she didn't get her powers from the MS, I think you're misunderstanding their relationship. The magic on Mjolnir is like a magic cloning technique IIRC.

The Mother Storm "awakened" which is why Mjolnir was doing all the crazy flying, but that's an entirely separate beast.

Side note: BRB, and all other Thor clones, get transformed and are given the powers of Thor, because a piece of Thor's "godly essence" was taken by Odin to grant them separate enchantments. Hence the "Blood and Thunder" arc.

Side side note: Thor channelled the MS to resurrect Jane. She only summoned it like a genie.
Hey like I said, I can totally see the logic behind the argument, I just don't see it as a winning argument because we've done quite a bit towards minimizing the transferring of feats. She can do thing's that he specifically can't, therefor they can't trade higher end feats. That's pretty much the standard we've always used.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
RIP Classic Marvel.

Don’t bother with H1. I could fill an entire page with Asgardian perception feats and it wouldn’t matter.
laughing out loud

abhilegend
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
There would be no reason why Jane's physical feats aren't transferrable to Thor. The enchantment on Mjolnir transformed her into Thor, she didn't get her powers from the MS, I think you're misunderstanding their relationship. The magic on Mjolnir is like a magic cloning technique IIRC.

The Mother Storm "awakened" which is why Mjolnir was doing all the crazy flying, but that's an entirely separate beast.

Side note: BRB, and all other Thor clones, get transformed and are given the powers of Thor, because a piece of Thor's "godly essence" was taken by Odin to grant them separate enchantments. Hence the "Blood and Thunder" arc.

Side side note: Thor channelled the MS to resurrect Jane. She only summoned it like a genie. Originally posted by abhilegend
laughing out loud

DarkSaint85
Lol, like a magic cloning technique...

Join us next thread, where Stilt argues that X-23 gets Logan's feats!

abhilegend
Yeah, this is like deja vu.


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
facepalm

I pointed out that if you take Superman's speed feats at face value, Thor wouldn't be able to land a punch if Clark was not limited by his character and other factors, including comic book logic.

Do you disagree with that stance? If so, why? Perhaps you know of some Thor speed feats that I'm unaware of. Even if we go to the extreme and assume Thor can throw punches at the speed of light, Clark still has superior body movement overall.

This isn't me abandoning the character. What a ridiculous thing to say. Thor still beats Superman.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

If an opponent is noticeably slower than Superman and has no applicable methods of striking him or countering his speed.....they, wait for it, cannot handle Superman's speed.

And yes, if you take his speed feats at face value, Thor would not be able to land a punch on Superman.




Where is this rage!!!!!!

DarkSaint85
Yeah but that was 2011.
In the past 8 years, Odinson has been getting TONS of speed feats.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by darthgoober
Uh yeah DS... debating comics is subjective... it's ALWAYS subjective. No one(mod or member) will ever be able to create some kind of mathematical formula in regards to how things work because the medium we're discussing is as inconsistent of a medium as one could ever find. The subjectivity is what makes the debates fun, this place would be a graveyard if a Thor vs Hulk thread got boiled down to numbers so plain that everyone who posted basically just agreed to read off the final sum of the equation.

I can't speak for where others draw the line when it comes to interpreting how the forum rules should be applied in individual debates, but personally I try to let logic and common sense be my guide because when I first joined and Digi was a mod that's basically how such things were determined by him and I've always liked that precept. Obviously, that kind of thing has a huge potential for variance from person to person but I prefer the idea of making that attempt than I do making an attempt at getting the mods to draw up some kind of ultra detailed debate formula so clear that no one ever disagrees on how to interpret the rules lol

Then this is essentially handbook debating.

'Batman is a human. Therefore I call any superhuman feats of his, PIS, and question them more than an Asgardian. Because gods.'

'Also, in the same breath, I will acknowledge comics show illogical things occurring, like Captain Cold, and Slow characters tagging faster, because comics'.

You're twisting on yourself here.

Either we acknowledge the illogical (Cold, slower characters tagging faster, Thor has speed, Batman is Low Herald) or we just flip to a handbook and debate off their stats, ignoring showings. By this, Asgardians are only given feats that are 3x humans.

If the former, fine. They happened in comics, as celey is fond of saying.

By that, Batman is herald level.

celeyhyga17
@DS
Do u agree, Thor has limb speed that can never be achieved by streets? And im talking far beyond here.

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