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https://i.postimg.cc/W3Cgk6hp/1.jpg


VS


https://i.postimg.cc/prj8YhFf/2.jpg


Perpetua with the full totality. Manhattan living up to all his hype in Doomsday clock.


What do you guys think?

This is a fukin tough one, great great fight

I honestly go with Perpetua

I'd also go with Manhattan right now, mainly because even Mxy himself outright stated that he was operating on levels that were far above his own abilities.

Time will tell, though.

Manhattan.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'd also go with Manhattan right now, mainly because even Mxy himself outright stated that he was operating on levels that were far above his own abilities.

Time will tell, though.

Lex also says in DD Clock that Manhattan is the most powerful being he has ever encountered.

True.

And even if we assume Doomsday Clock is set before Lex had working knowledge of Perpetua, his statement still affirms that Manhattan is intended to be > Mxy(among many, many others.)

^ Only the statements, by far.

Because he never said they were more powerful than himself. We've been over this before...

Yeah going by mxy statements I don't think there's anyone in comic book history apart from supreme beings of the companies (TOAA, Precense, Overvoid etc) that can challenge Doctor Manhattan

I'm very interested to see the last issue of Doomsday Clock, Hopefully superman doesn't beat him in direct combat because this will inadvertently result in lowballing of doctor manhattan and cause another shitstorm

Originally posted by MrMind
Yeah going by mxy statements I don't think there's anyone in comic book history apart from supreme beings of the companies (TOAA, Precense, Overvoid etc) that can challenge Doctor Manhattan

I'm very interested to see the last issue of Doomsday Clock, Hopefully superman doesn't beat him in direct combat because this will inadvertently result in lowballing of doctor manhattan and cause another shitstorm If Superman beats Manhattan(even if he dies in the process), the 'other side' will then try to argue that a single herald-level being can stomp all of DC.

...Cuz the whole of DC < Mxy < Manhattan < Superman = herald-level, you see.

Just because some of the most powerful beings operate in the multiversal control room

doesn't mean that all of the most powerful beings need to be from the multiversal control room

Like I said: never once does Mxy outright state that Perpetua and/or her children are more powerful than himself.

Their ability to access the 6th dimension more freely than Mxy certainly doesn't mean they are more powerful than him by default... Mxy's dealt with higher-dimensional beings just fine in the past(like Ultimator and The A, for example.)

Why are you assuming Mxy is talking about beings outside the DC Multiverse

@Supreme
You're editorializing Mxy's statements and trying to make them more explicit than they are. Again, Mxy does NOT state that Perpetua and/or her children are more powerful than himself. Never once.

However, Mxy does explicitly state that Manhattan is more powerful than himself... And Superman confirms the same thing in the following issue...And Lex(who obviously has full working knowledge of Mxy) confirms than Manhattan > ALL in Doomsday Clock.


tl;dr
In the case of Perpetua vs. Mxy, you have to do a bunch of tinfoil hat-esque, dot-connecting to reach the conclusion that she *might* be more powerful than him... But even then the intent is still ambiguous because it wasn't clearly stated.

But in the case of Manhattan vs. Mxy, there is NO ambiguity whatsoever. The intent is made abundantly clear by way of multiple, explicit statements.

...So to get back to your original question: that's why the Manhattan statements are hyped and the Perpetua statements are not.

Why is it ambiguous? It is literally stringing together two simple statements Mxy made within a panel of each other:

Statement 1: Only the most powerful few beings can access the sixth dimension

Statement 2: I cannot access the sixth dimension, it is beyond my perception, the only four (few) beings that can are Perpetua and the Brothers

Conclusion: Perpetua and the Brothers are the most powerful few beings according to Mxy.

Originally posted by Galan007
@Supreme
You're editorializing Mxy's statements and trying to make them more explicit than they are. Again, Mxy does NOT state that Perpetua and/or her children are more powerful than himself. Never once.

However, Mxy does explicitly state that Manhattan is more powerful than himself... And Superman confirms the same thing in the following issue...And Lex(who obviously has full working knowledge of Mxy) confirms than Manhattan > ALL in Doomsday Clock.


tl;dr
In the case of Perpetua vs. Mxy, you have to do a bunch of tinfoil hat-esque, dot-connecting to reach the conclusion that she *might* be more powerful than him... But even then the intent is still ambiguous because it wasn't clearly stated.

But in the case of Manhattan vs. Mxy, there is NO ambiguity whatsoever. The intent is made abundantly clear by way of multiple, explicit statements.

...So to get back to your original question: that's why the Manhattan statements are hyped and the Perpetua statements are not. I've got to agree here.

There is very little that is ambiguous about Mxy's comments on Perpetua on the Brothers Three at all.

Per his own words only the most powerful beings until recently could access it, and per his own words only those four were able to do so. None of those four beings included him, and all happen to be higher dimensional beings than him (no Galan, bringing up past events where he overcame higher dimensional beings is not evidence of how current Mxy compares with these recent characters).

In Snyder's cosmology all evidence points to the four being more powerful than Mxy.

It's shocking really how awesome in scope JLA stories are at the moment and the Avengers have gone Saturday morning cartoon with iterations of ghost rider.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Per his own words only the most powerful beings until recently could access it, and per his own words only those four were able to do so. None of those four beings included him, and all happen to be higher dimensional beings than him He also didn't list the Source and its Agents/Judges(despite surely knowing of them.) Does that mean they cannot access the 6th dimension either, iyo?

Listen, I completely agree that only upper-echelon beings can access the 6th dimension. But the question is: does the ability to access that dimension automatically put you above Mxy by default? I certainly do not believe that to be the case, because as I said: there is no explicit indication of such... Especially when Mxy himself later said that it would take ALL of his abilities to create a portal to the 6th dimension, but then proceeded to whip it up in a single panel with a few "huffs".

And yes, I know Mxy said that him accessing the 6th dimension became possible do to the Source Wall being gone, but the Source Wall being gone also weakened Mxy tremendously, yet he STILL created a portal to the 6th dimension with seemingly very little effort, then proceeded to begin unimagining all of creation(in a very literal/meta sense), WHILE also fighting Bat-Mite + the JL in possession of fragments of the Totality... And even in this weakened state, Mxy was STILL so powerful that Brainiac(who had full knowledge of Perpetua and her sons) was freaking out at his "incalculable" and "limitless" power.

So maybe, just maybe, it's possible that Mxy might've been underselling his own abilities there?

Originally posted by NemeBro
(no Galan, bringing up past events where he overcame higher dimensional beings is not evidence of how current Mxy compares with these recent characters). Yes Nem. What it tells us is that just because you're from a higher dimension than Mxy, doesn't mean you're automatically above him.

And yes, those showings ARE very much relevant to Mxy, because ALL of his showings are canon to him. This fact actually holds true now more than ever...

Originally posted by Galan007
He also didn't list the Source and its Agents/Judges(despite surely knowing of them.) Does that mean they cannot access the 6th dimension either, iyo?

Listen, I completely agree that only upper-echelon beings can access the 6th dimension. But the question is: does the ability to access that dimension automatically put you above Mxy by default? I certainly do not believe that to be the case, because as I said: there is no explicit indication of such... Especially when Mxy himself later said that it would take ALL of his abilities to create a portal to the 6th dimension, but then proceeded to whip it up in a single panel with a few "huffs".

And yes, I know Mxy said that him accessing the 6th dimension became possible do to the Source Wall being gone, but the Source Wall being gone also weakened Mxy tremendously, yet he STILL created a portal to the 6th dimension with seemingly very little effort, then proceeded to begin unimagining all of creation(in a very literal/meta sense), WHILE also fighting Bat-Mite + the JL in possession of fragments of the Totality.

So maybe, just maybe, it's possible that Mxy might've been underselling his own abilities there?

Yes Nem. What it tells us is that just because you're from a higher dimension than Mxy, doesn't mean you're automatically above him.

And yes, those showings ARE very much relevant to Mxy, because ALL of his showings are canon to him. This fact actually holds true now more than ever... being from a higher dimension should make you automatically above a lower one. Ergo Flatland.

To be clear: I'm not saying that Perpetua and her sons *aren't* intended to be > Mxy. I'm saying that, imo, the evidence isn't explicit, and is open to interpretation based on your personal reading of Mxy's dialogue and the overall context of the story.

But where Manhattan is concerned, there is no ambiguity at all. The authorial intent is crystal clear because the statements/comparisons *are* direct and explicit.

Point being: that's why you'll get no argument from me that Manhattan > Mxy, but why I'm still hesitant to accept Perpetua(and co.) being above Mxy.

Originally posted by Galan007
To be clear: I'm not saying that Perpetua and her sons *aren't* intended to be > Mxy. I'm saying that, imo, the evidence isn't explicit, and is open to interpretation based on your personal reading of Mxy's dialogue and the overall context of the story.

But where Manhattan is concerned, there is no ambiguity at all. The authorial intent is crystal clear because the statements/comparisons *are* direct and explicit.

Point being: that's why you'll get no argument from me that Manhattan > Mxy, but why I'm still hesitant to accept Perpetua(and co.) being above Mxy. I agree, I will though state in DC as with the idea postulated in Flatland, which DC dimensional hierarchy is clearly based on. The higher the dimension a being naturally inhabits the greater it's power.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
The higher the dimension a being naturally inhabits the greater it's power. There are quite a few examples of that not holding true in DC, though. I've posted them before, but that's neither here nor there.

Originally posted by Galan007
There are quite a few examples of that not holding true in DC, though. I've posted them before, but that's neither here nor there. I know we had the dimension war for one. But generally, given the fluctuance of comic continuity, time and writers, it broadly holds true.

Originally posted by Galan007
Like I said: never once does Mxy outright state that Perpetua and/or her children are more powerful than himself.

Their ability to access the 6th dimension more freely than Mxy certainly doesn't mean they are more powerful than him by default... Mxy's dealt with higher-dimensional beings just fine in the past(like Ultimator and The A, for example.)
The A ? I found nothing of the character. Can you provide scans of the Mxy vs The A fight?

Where it happened?

Thanks Galan.

I disagree with you here. I also think it's possible, but I don't think the actual evidence is as clear as you seem to. Especially when mxy has feats that are far beyond what any of them have done- including Perpetua herself.

Lmao

So apparently Perpetua needs time to gather power to destroy a single universe in the Orrery. mmm

To be fair(even though I still think it's phucking stupid), Perpetua isn't quite at full power yet... Hopefully that last little micro-fraction she absorbs in order to unlock her *true* power will make all the difference. kinda

Perpetua at full

Especially when Snyder's at the helm, yeah.

He always starts off with these really big ideas, but always seems to f*ck them up in the end. That being said, there's still time for Perpetua not to be a disappointment... So here's hoping.

Bump. Then, how goes this? Perpetua still is Doctor Manhattan equal?