Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

I know much of the discussion and debate on this forum is generated around how "powerful" certain force users are and that's okay, but after seeing Rise of Skywalker, I think things are beginning to get out of hand. Spoilers below obviously:


-Palpatine wiping out fleets with force lightning
-Rey / Kylo being able to heal fatal injuries.
-Rey and Kylo being able to teleport and physically interact across space/time.
-Force Ghost being able to empower force users with all of their like the f-cking spirit bomb or some sh-t.
-Force Ghost being able to physically interact with the material world without limitation.

If this is the new standard for power now, why in the world do we need Finn and Poe? Rey should be able to handle everything herself (which she basically did in the movie, but that's a different story?). How can there possibly ever be a threat to the universe again now that we've got force ghost Yoda, luke and Anakin around? Even if an Abeloth level threat shows its ugly head, just juice up the main character with the powers of all of the previous jedi and it'll be solved.

And I'm readily aware that TOR/comic-books/novels have displayed some utterly ridiculous crap in the past, but the movies have always been more grounded in reality. And so perhaps seeing what I saw on film was what it took to make my look at this objectively.

In the OT, it was pretty clear the Luke was a force to be reckoned with (no pun intended) due to his jedi training, but that alone did not render the non-force wielders utterly pointless. Han and Leia were every bit integral to the team. And the force back then, though mysterious, felt like it had some hard limits that made the story more interesting and unpredictable. Luke's plan to free Han in ROTJ was completely idiotic, but it still resulted in some good and tense action scenes that we never would have seen had Rey been the main character instead.

Are you trying to suggest that the writers of RoS had no clue what to do, weren't that familiar with the brand as a whole, and really didn't give too much of a heck about consistency?


Da doi?

In the grand scheme of the movies? Sure, but who knows how many more movies we'll be getting.

Luke was making planets invisible how many years ago at this point? Like, 15 years ago?

Are you referring to just the movies? Legends and Disney canons even most tame media outside of the prequels and OT (CGI show) still does crazy things like moving shuttle crafts and lifting hundreds tons.

Member when the Force was a little neck choke, a little lightsaber tug, a big jump, some premonitions, and ghosts?


Yeah that shit sounds gay, make them blow everything up and look like Dragonball Z characters.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Member when the Force was a little neck choke, a little lightsaber tug, a big jump, some premonitions, and ghosts?


Yeah that shit sounds gay, make them blow everything up and look like Dragonball Z characters. Rewatched ANH the other day and I have a new love and appreciation for the trench run scene. Simple, tense, high stakes and proof positive that you don't need DBZ powers to enhance a SW movie.

To the other posters, I'm well aware of the ridiculous feats in the games and comics, but it was seeing it on the big screen that made me realize how silly it is. If we're at the point where people can wipe out fleets, teleport and instantly heal from certain death, spaceships and non-force using people are totally unnecessary.

Too powerful? It depends what standard you measure by.

I'm pretty sure they did the power creep because Dark Empire did the power creep and this movie did everything Dark Empire did. (Haven't seen the film by the way...I was planning to, but got impatient and read the plot on wikipedia. Hopefully I'll watch it soon)

"Too" powerful depends on what kind of story you want to tell. This new trilogy was a lot more action oriented, and if they want to tell a story which tries to make us want to imagine being a jedi, then this is just the right direction to go in.

No, they really aren't.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Too powerful? It depends what standard you measure by.

I'm pretty sure they did the power creep because Dark Empire did the power creep and this movie did everything Dark Empire did. (Haven't seen the film by the way...I was planning to, but got impatient and read the plot on wikipedia. Hopefully I'll watch it soon)

"Too" powerful depends on what kind of story you want to tell. This new trilogy was a lot more action oriented, and if they want to tell a story which tries to make us want to imagine being a jedi, then this is just the right direction to go in.



Its nothing like Dark Empire.

^ Id say its a poor version of ROTJ. The only resemblance to DE is Palpatine being back. And yeah that part was a piss poor take on DE.

The plot of DE was stupid and over the top also.

People online (not any of you guys) always try to act like legends was perfect and always cohesive, but it missed a looot more then it hit overall. so I'm not sure why the "legends snobs" aren't willing to give new canon the same leeway?

^ Oh I always thought DE (as fun as it was) was still too campy to make into a movie. But heck it explained itself infinitely better than this film did. This film which was neither campy fun, or intelligent in the slightest.

But to your point there are plenty of excellent Legends material to use as source material for movies.

Oh you're right about that. Dumb as the DE plot was, at least things were actually explained lol.

I don't dislike legends at all. I just think it's stupid when people act like Disney making some crappy stories is some new concept and legends was perfect. That couldn't be further from the truth imo. Legends had LOADS of faults.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Oh you're right about that. Dumb as the DE plot was, at least things were actually explained lol.

I don't dislike legends at all. I just think it's stupid when people act like Disney making some crappy stories is some new concept and legends was perfect. That couldn't be further from the truth imo. Legends had LOADS of faults.

I don't think anyone has said Legends was perfect, if they are, then it's probably a very vocal few, but with how much material there is then it's obvious there's gonna be a lot of bad with the good.

Completely agree.

Like I was saying though; I'm not sure why these avid supporters of legends aren't willing to give new canon the same leeway? Most of the time they won't even recognize the good things that pop up in new canon. They are just so biased sometimes

^ Like Zenwolf said, those are a vocal minority.

The main issue with Disney is actually not making new stories, and not taking the movie plot forward, then the next issue is not respecting the established lore, and playing according to those rules.

Well, I think people disagree about what they do and don't like about Disney's canon.
I personally think the biggest factor is that when they first discovered Legends, it intrigued them even if they didn't think the stories were the best they'd ever read. And now that something established is being changed in a way they don't like, they aren't as willing to give it leeway.
That's why so many people who just discovered Star Wars' EU (Both Legends and Canon) are more open to the possibilities it gives them. It was what opened their minds.

Oh, and was it really nothing like DE? The summary made it seem like Rey temporarily turning to the dark side, the First Order being like the Imperial Remnant, and Palpatine coming back with a ridiculous(ly awesome) power creep was similar to DE. I guess I'd have to watch it to get it.

Also, while we're on the topic, how powerful do you think canon force users are now?

We have:
Force Stasis
Force Sleep
Mind Probe
Force Projection
Force Bond
Force Heal (Phyiscal AND emotional damange, apparently)
And that's not counting all the weird things from the comics, and whatever knowledge Luke and Palpatine had collected.

It gets even crazier when you start to consider other, more creative applications of the above powers.
Like does force stasis allow also "remember" the movement of an object while it's frozen? Like if you were to throw a ball and then put it in stasis and then take it out of stasis, would it continue flying in the same direction at the same speed? If so, does that mean jedi can "absorb" kinetic energy now, like Black Panther?
Also, with force bond, we know they can teleport matter, but do they teleport themselves, or are they in two places at once?
Could you force-bond with an animal? Then you could pretty much teleport anywhere, considering there's even creatures living in space.
And then you bring in TWBW, and now they can see and even interact with anything that's ever happened in history or is happening right now.

So how do these characters compare to their Legends counterparts, or other fictional characters? How much destructive/constructive power do they have?

I really wish we would have seen more of Kylo freezing blaster fire and the like

https://i.postimg.cc/26PF36B4/1.gif


That was SO badass when I first saw TFA.

It's kind of impractical honestly, at least in combat practice. One is better off just diverting or deflecting them.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Also, while we're on the topic, how powerful do you think canon force users are now?

We have:
Force Stasis
Force Sleep
Mind Probe
Force Projection
Force Bond
Force Heal (Phyiscal AND emotional damange, apparently)
And that's not counting all the weird things from the comics, and whatever knowledge Luke and Palpatine had collected.

It gets even crazier when you start to consider other, more creative applications of the above powers.
Like does force stasis allow also "remember" the movement of an object while it's frozen? Like if you were to throw a ball and then put it in stasis and then take it out of stasis, would it continue flying in the same direction at the same speed? If so, does that mean jedi can "absorb" kinetic energy now, like Black Panther?
Also, with force bond, we know they can teleport matter, but do they teleport themselves, or are they in two places at once?
Could you force-bond with an animal? Then you could pretty much teleport anywhere, considering there's even creatures living in space.
And then you bring in TWBW, and now they can see and even interact with anything that's ever happened in history or is happening right now.

So how do these characters compare to their Legends counterparts, or other fictional characters? How much destructive/constructive power do they have?

Those powers are really nothing your standard Jedi Padawan/Knight/Master or Sith equivalent can't do from previous lore.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
It's kind of impractical honestly, at least in combat practice. One is better off just diverting or deflecting them.

Wouldn't it be practical at times to keep them harmlessly hanging in the air? And as I said earlier, they could absorb kinetic energy (making them immune to physical damage) and release it later. That's breaking the 3rd law of physics. There must be some good application for that.

Also Cal Kestis uses it just so he has some bolts floating around in case he needs them.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Those powers are really nothing your standard Jedi Padawan/Knight/Master or Sith equivalent can't do from previous lore.

Unless I'm mistaken, you couldn't teleport through space, see what was happening across the galaxy, see and interact with any event in history and heal mental scars.

And then there's the point about possibly being in two places at once with the Force Dyad.

Another thought: We met Immortal Rur who could turn himself into a mist of sorts. Rur in legends was very different.
We also saw the Abersyn Symbiotes and how they somehow enhanced the powers of a force user.
And the hookspore fungus which essentially created a hive mind force user, who was made of a million different quasi-unkillable bacteria which could split into multiple collective bodies but stay attached to one mind.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Wouldn't it be practical at times to keep them harmlessly hanging in the air? And as I said earlier, they could absorb kinetic energy (making them immune to physical damage) and release it later. That's breaking the 3rd law of physics. There must be some good application for that.

Also Cal Kestis uses it just so he has some bolts floating around in case he needs them.



Unless I'm mistaken, you couldn't teleport through space, see what was happening across the galaxy, see and interact with any event in history and heal mental scars.

And then there's the point about possibly being in two places at once with the Force Dyad.

Why would you want to keep them in the air right in the middle of combat? Now you're having to focus on keeping them still while also fighting, which doesn't really make much sense if all you're intending to do is kill the enemy or incap them.

It's just something that looks cool, but I honestly don't see why one would use it for combat when there's much better and easier solutions.

I was mainly referring to the powers you specifically listed, not that Force Dyad thing which is clearly something unique to Rey/Ben specifically. Same with TWBW, that's not really a power though in either case.

Also teleporting objects, it's pretty much just Fold Space which the Aing-Tii could do along with others who learned it.

Force Dyad was a poor man's Force Harmony stolen from Dark Empire.

They had no ideas of their own.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Force Dyad was a poor man's Force Harmony stolen from Dark Empire.

They had no ideas of their own.

How's that? Didn't they like, duel in various places of the past or something with it?

Also speaking of Force Harmony, I just realized that the Shadow Guards of all Force Users can do it...huh...well that's certainly something, never thought I'd see that.

Fair enough

I thought that "Force Stasis" was its own power specifically because you didn't have to concentrate on keeping the bolts still anymore. You could just make them still once and they'd stay that way.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Fair enough

I thought that "Force Stasis" was its own power specifically because you didn't have to concentrate on keeping the bolts still anymore. You could just make them still once and they'd stay that way.

Given that the bolt we see Kylo does eventually move, there is clearly a limit on how long it's either there, or Kylo released it, in which case they can't just be there indefinitely and require some measure of concentrate to be kept still regardless.

My bigger question is, why they made this Force Stasis a main ability for it rather than...just have it be an application of TK. I mean Vader essentially did the same what Kylo did in the Coruscant Night series against I-5, only it was just an application of TK.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
I really wish we would have seen more of Kylo freezing blaster fire and the like

https://i.postimg.cc/26PF36B4/1.gif


That was SO badass when I first saw TFA.


Probably still the best scene in the entire trilogy.

definitely up there.

I remember seeing TFA for the first time in theaters and chuckling like an idiot when Kylo did that.

.......Then it never happened. He didn't even attempt it again lmao. Such a letdown.

I don't think Rey and Kylo are overpowered in actual combat. And Palpatine destroying fleets single-handedly is nothing we haven't seen before in Legends.

Regardless of their powers or lack thereof, the movie is absolutely terrible. I expected nothing more from the conclusive film of this abysmal trilogy, though.