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A direct comparison between the two. Both characters are hooked up to Dr Cosimo's machine:

https://i.postimg.cc/C1w6R5Db/2-3.jpg

Now, I know neither Ben nor Luke are mythological characters:

https://i.postimg.cc/fb1KSkhy/RCO005-1469444904.jpg

But are Hercs a measure of mystical energy? Or physical energy?

https://i.postimg.cc/DyNDx2kK/RCO006-1469444904.jpg

Note that nowhere in the scan does it state a Herc is a measure of physical strength.

My take -

A Herc is not a measure of physical force, but of mystical energy only. Thus, they would both stalemate at 0 Hercs, as neither of them are mythological in nature.

Thing outputs 1-shot KO Immortal Hulk levels of power, which expands 3 Aunt Petunias.

Luke Cage would probably need two Sweet Christmases for that.

So there's my answer.

Full disclosure, as I am nothing if not transparent:

This thread will hopefully contain all arguments for and against Hercs being used as a physical unit, and at the end, a mod ruling may hopefully be given. So give it your best debate, chaps and chappettes!

Luke Cage is not succeptable to humanity like the Thing is. If he activates his skin against a power he can thusly suspend it that way for longer than the Things punch can land it blow. On both the low side of fraction to the mega side of astronomically.
Thus Luke Cage is the man.

Bump. Reminder of what's at stake - if I am the sole contributor, a Herc is ruled as a pure mystical unit, and the Hulk loses one of his best physical showings.

Uhm, wow. There goes the WBH feat.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Full disclosure, as I am nothing if not transparent:

This thread will hopefully contain all arguments for and against Hercs being used as a physical unit, and at the end, a mod ruling may hopefully be given. So give it your best debate, chaps and chappettes! Herc is clearly a physical unit, remember when the wrecking crew and Hyde put him in hospital and he lost his nerve for a while.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
A direct comparison between the two. Both characters are hooked up to Dr Cosimo's machine:

https://i.postimg.cc/C1w6R5Db/2-3.jpg

Now, I know neither Ben nor Luke are mythological characters:

https://i.postimg.cc/fb1KSkhy/RCO005-1469444904.jpg

But are Hercs a measure of mystical energy? Or physical energy?

https://i.postimg.cc/DyNDx2kK/RCO006-1469444904.jpg

Note that nowhere in the scan does it state a Herc is a measure of physical strength.

I see that you're still trying to twist things. The mythical entity known as Hope, was capable of hitting physical creatures, or non mythical creatures with the force of 133.5 Hercs of power. Your take would make it seem as if a non mythical object, or creature being hit would not suffer physical damage, and yet Hercules, Thor, and every other mythical creature have at one time or the other had an effect on the physical comic book universe.

I think it's a mythical unit. Hercules albeit godly is still man like and singular, while hope is multifarious and would benefit from a larger source of people, as more people have hope than subscribe to the legends of hercules.

Originally posted by ilikecomics
I think it's a mythical unit. Hercules albeit godly is still man like and singular, while hope is multifarious and would benefit from a larger source of people, as more people have hope than subscribe to the legends of hercules.

And yet Hope was able to affect the very physical Hulk on a very physical level with a force that was measured to be 133.5 Hercs of power strength. Again, 1 Herc is the equivalent of the power that Hercules expends in one all out punch. Baba Yaga was also very human like.

Originally posted by ilikecomics
I think it's a mythical unit. Hercules albeit godly is still man like and singular, while hope is multifarious and would benefit from a larger source of people, as more people have hope than subscribe to the legends of hercules.

Sorry, got busy. I'm in no way going against it being a method used to measure mythical beings, or even possibly magical objects. If I ever mentioned that characters like the Hulk, Wonder Man, Superman, Doomsday, etc could be measured in Hercs, I clearly erred. At any rate, I don't recall claiming that. What I did claim was that the Hulk at that time survived a hit by this entity who had been measured as being capable of hitting with the force of 133.5 Hercs of power strength. This measurement gives an accurate discription of the amount of power that these mythical creatures can display, in terms of their effects on the physical universe.

I'd rather have my characters measured in Foggys -maximum of lawyering energy Foggy can muster in one case-. Thank you.

I dont really understand how one punch is that impressive, maybe super strength changes scale but the most i can do with a single punch isnt close to my total power output, in other words if i punch as hard as i can and hit a punching bag im not anywhere near close to gassed.

I also wonder if a different mythical entity, that had different power output than herc, was the dr lady's frame of reference. So for example if she first studied zeus and the unit were based on how much he could punch would it take less zeus units?

Would the hope monster be 10 zeus units, with the same outcome of the battle ?

Im not sure if that would would even matter or not but might open other interesting lines of inquiry.

Originally posted by Stoic
Sorry, got busy. I'm in no way going against it being a method used to measure mythical beings, or even possibly magical objects. If I ever mentioned that characters like the Hulk, Wonder Man, Superman, Doomsday, etc could be measured in Hercs, I clearly erred. At any rate, I don't recall claiming that. What I did claim was that the Hulk at that time survived a hit by this entity who had been measured as being capable of hitting with the force of 133.5 Hercs of power strength. This measurement gives an accurate discription of the amount of power that these mythical creatures can display, in terms of their effects on the physical universe.

This seems reasonable, but i still dont get why they'd focus on the mystical part if it only was primarily physical or concussive.

Originally posted by ilikecomics
This seems reasonable, but i still dont get why they'd focus on the mystical part if it only was primarily physical or concussive.

Mythical. Dr. Cosimo found a way to measure the amount of damage that a mythical being could output on the physical universe. The energies origin, or type are as irrelevant as the physical substance being attacked. The number of Hercs, and their culmulative values are all that matter when referring to the damage that a mythical being would have on the physical universe. In a nutshell; Baba Yaga is capable of hitting a physical object with the force of 1.5 Hercs of power. The type of power that Baba Yaga uses is irrelevant. The damage that she does on the other hand is very relevant. Baba Yaga was able to ragdoll Colossus.

Correction Baba Yaga overpowered Piotr in his human form, which led him to wonder whether or not he'd be a match for her in his armored form. Sorry, I read that book a while ago.

Originally posted by ilikecomics
This seems reasonable, but i still dont get why they'd focus on the mystical part if it only was primarily physical or concussive.

Exactly.

Its like measuring a nuclear bomb in terms of the radioactivity it outputs. A Herc just measures the mystical radioactivity.

Sure, you don't want a nuke's worth of radioactivity in your lungs. But the main damage it deals is in the heat and concussive energy a bomb outputs. The radioactivity is just one part of the bomb's power output.

But your Geiger counter would still only measure the MAXIMUM (not total, which is a very important distinction) radiation the bomb outputs. And if I measure things in rads, I'm not measuring the heat or explosive power - just the radioactivity.

Originally posted by Stoic
I see that you're still trying to twist things. The mythical entity known as Hope, was capable of hitting physical creatures, or non mythical creatures with the force of 133.5 Hercs of power. Your take would make it seem as if a non mythical object, or creature being hit would not suffer physical damage, and yet Hercules, Thor, and every other mythical creature have at one time or the other had an effect on the physical comic book universe.
No, I am not saying there would be no physical damage. There would undoubtedly be physical damage.

But it's not going to be the physical force of Hercules's strongest punch, multiplied by 133.45.

It will be the mystical energy given off when Hercules punches, multiplied by 133.45. How much is this? A lot, to be sure, but not the physical force.

Is that it?

After a certain period I am going to ask Galan to lock this thread, and give a ruling.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No, I am not saying there would be no physical damage. There would undoubtedly be physical damage.

But it's not going to be the physical force of Hercules's strongest punch, multiplied by 133.45.

It will be the mystical energy given off when Hercules punches, multiplied by 133.45. How much is this? A lot, to be sure, but not the physical force.

How are we in disagreement then? If we see the same thing, there's really nothing to discuss. The Hulk took the hit and survived.

So we agree that it's not the total energy (and never was) from Herc's punch, but just the mystical component from his punch?

To use the nuclear bomb analogy, it's only the sound (or the radiation) part of the explosion, and NOT the full energy (heat+concussion+sound+radiation) given off by the explosion.

In short, we can't take the physical force from Hercules's strongest punch, and multiply by 133.45?

If a guy radiated 100 hercs after punching an object, around how strong do u think this guy is?

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
If a guy radiated 100 hercs after punching an object, around how strong do u think this guy is?

No idea.

He's VERY magical though. Because a Herc is a measure of how mystical/magical a person/item is.

Interesting

Put it this way.

Ares and.....Sentry. or Gladiator. All three punch something as hard as they can (assume merged DS Sentry).

Ares would be 1 Herc (possibly even....2? As Hercules is *only* a demigod). Gladiator would be....0Hercs, as he's not mythological at all.

Is Ares stronger than Gladiator?

Is Rappacini 0.5 times as physically strong as an all-out punch from Herc?

https://i.postimg.cc/zD9G2gnp/RCO013-1469401173.jpg

Is WBH at his angriest/strongest, only 20% of Hercules?
https://i.postimg.cc/GmHbBRV5/RCO020-1469401173.jpg

Is Cho 5% of Hercules' strongest punch? So 20 Korean-American kids =1 Hercules? And 4 Korean-American kids = 1 WBH?
https://i.postimg.cc/rw0LVJt6/RCO016-1469445062.jpg

All Hercs are, are a measure of how mystical an item/person is. Ares would be 1 or 2 Hercs. Gladiator would be 0. It has no relation to their strength levels.

If a herc is specifically a unit of energy based on an all out punch, if it were measuring the physical component of his punch wouldnt that mean herc would be greater than 1 herc? Surely with godly stamina herc is more than capable of throwing one punch.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So we agree that it's not the total energy (and never was) from Herc's punch, but just the mystical component from his punch?

To use the nuclear bomb analogy, it's only the sound (or the radiation) part of the explosion, and NOT the full energy (heat+concussion+sound+radiation) given off by the explosion.

In short, we can't take the physical force from Hercules's strongest punch, and multiply by 133.45?


It's maybe important to say, although already implied, that a conventional non nuclear bomb can have a bigger payload, that does more damage to it's target v.s. a small payload nuclear bomb that doesnt destroy it's target, but does irradiate it.

Originally posted by ilikecomics
If a herc is specifically a unit of energy based on an all out punch, if it were measuring the physical component of his punch wouldnt that mean herc would be greater than 1 herc? Surely with godly stamina herc is more than capable of throwing one punch.

Specifically a unit of MYSTICAL energy.

https://i.postimg.cc/fb1KSkhy/RCO005-1469444904.jpg

Originally posted by ilikecomics
It's maybe important to say, although already implied, that a conventional non nuclear bomb can have a bigger payload, that does more damage to it's target v.s. a small payload nuclear bomb that doesnt destroy it's target, but does irradiate it.

Precisely my point.

Ares is that small nuke. Gladiator is that giant conventional bomb. Ares is more 'radioactive' than Gladiator, but that doesn't mean he does more damage than Glads.

And tanking Ares, doesn't mean you can tank Gladiator. Because Glads does way more damage, compared to Ares, despite not being as 'strong' radioactively speaking.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Put it this way.

Ares and.....Sentry. or Gladiator. All three punch something as hard as they can (assume merged DS Sentry).

Ares would be 1 Herc (possibly even....2? As Hercules is *only* a demigod). Gladiator would be....0Hercs, as he's not mythological at all.

Is Ares stronger than Gladiator?

So the book went out of its way to tie the measurement of a "herc" specifically to Herc's punch output, but it has nothing to do with his str or power output? And called it a herc of all things.. Hmm....

Because herc is a demigod, he is definitively less "magical"?

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
So the book went out of its way to tie the measurement of a "herc" specifically to Herc's punch output, but it has nothing to do with his str or power output? And called it a herc of all thing.. Hmm....

Because herc is a demigod, he is definitively less "magical"?

Did I say 'Definitively'? No.

Did I say nothing to do with power output? No. I even posted the scan of what energy it is measuring

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Did I say 'Definitively'? No.

Did I say nothing to do with power output? No. I even posted the scan of what energy it is measuring
So y even entertain that rabbit hole?

So people can grasp what a Herc is.

The point (which you're failing to grasp) is that Ares is more magical/mythological/mystical than Gladiator, so would radiate more Hercs than Glads.

That doesn't mean anything about how their strength levels compare.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So people can grasp what a Herc is.

The point (which you're failing to grasp) is that Ares is more magical than Gladiator, so would radiate more Hercs than Glads.

That doesn't mean anything about how their strength levels compare.
Thats faulty. No one is missing that point. Instead of accepting what's pretty obvious from the comic, u r complicating it.
Because of your stance, u end up opening unneeded rabbit holes.

For example, could it be that her machine characterized herc's phyiscal output as mystical because that's what it was specifically made for?

Could it be that if she used nonmagical equipment to read tbe output, it would most likely be equivalent to a herc(magical designation)?

Could it be that the the max mystical energy in a herc though measured from a physical act was designated as mystical because of Hercules' mystical nature?

Not sure if ure missing the forest for the trees on purpose.

Like if pak used this story tool again(hercs) and had a giant mythical creature's energy output measured at 10 hercs after a punch, he didnt actually mean the creature could be considered much stronger than Hercules.... You know like some where 10 times more powerful give or take... I mean come on.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Thats faulty. No one is missing that point. Instead of accepting what's pretty obvious from the comic, u r complicating it.
Because of your stance, u end up opening unneeded rabbit holes.

For example, could it be that her machine characterized herc's phyiscal output as mystical because that's what it was specifically made for?

Could it be that if she used nonmagical equipment to read tbe output, it would most likely be equivalent to a herc(magical designation)?

Could it be that the the max mystical energy in a herc though measured from a physical act was designated as mystical because of Hercules' mystical nature?

Not sure if ure missing the forest for the trees on purpose.

Like if pak used this story tool again(hercs) and had a giant mythical creature's energy output measured at 10 hercs after a punch, he didnt actually mean the creature could be considered much stronger than Hercules.... You know like some where 10 times more powerful give or take...

No.

Because she specifically says what a Herc measures. The energy radiated by a mythological item/person. I'm not complicating things at all. Its a measure of the energy radiated my mythological beings. Nothing more, nothing less..

No one is disputing that it measured mystical energy.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
No one is disputing that it measured mystical energy.

Carver did. Stoic did at one point. You not disputing it doesn't mean no one did.

My point is that it's not a physical unit, and never was. Ares being 1, 2, 0.5, whatever Hercs doesn't mean that tanking his punch would enable you to tank someone who has 0 Hercs.

Its a measure of how magical something is. As you say it measures mystical energy.

Gladiator, Supreme, Superman, Thing, Luke Cage....these are all non mystical beings. They'd all have 0 Hercs.

My quibble is that I have frequently seen 'Hulk withstood 133.45 Hercs in his lungs!!! That's above herald feat!!!' Punches from <insert physical being> would do nothing to him!'.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Carver did. Stoic did at one point. You not disputing it doesn't mean no one did.

My point is that it's not a physical unit, and never was. Ares being 1, 2, 0.5, whatever Hercs doesn't mean that tanking his punch would enable you to tank someone who has 0 Hercs.

Its a measure of how magical something is. As you say it measures mystical energy.

Gladiator, Supreme, Superman, Thing, Luke Cage....these are all non mystical beings. They'd all have 0 Hercs.

My quibble is that I have frequently seen 'Hulk withstood 133.45 Hercs in his lungs!!! That's above herald feat!!!' Punches from <insert physical being> would do nothing to him!'.
If u go only by that comic. Its a ridic feat. Utterly ridiculous featwise and conceptuallywise....

Means nothing relative to physical strength.

Sure it does. That thing was measured to radiate 133 hercs worth of mystical energy output. A measurement whose origins was born out of measuring the output from a physical act... From a god of strength no less.
If that thing was fighting Hulk physically and a Hulk fan says that Hulk overpowered a creature capable of outputting attacks 133 times the power of Herc, i wouldnt bat an eye. Well maybe a little.

Your problem shouldnt be at those Hulk fans. Ure problem should be with Pak. He created this stupidity.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Sure it does. That thing was measured to radiate 133 hercs worth of mystical energy output. A measurement whose origins was born out of measuring the output from a physical act... From a god of strength no less.
If that thing was fighting Hulk physically and a Hulk fan says that Hulk overpowered a creature capable of outputting attacks 133 times the power of Herc, i wouldnt bat an eye. Well maybe a little.

Your problem shouldnt be at those Hulk fans. Ure problem should be with Pak. He created this stupidity.

Pak using a punch doesn't mean anything, only that it sounds cool.

WBH at his angriest, when he was literally stomping Fin Fang Foom:

https://i.postimg.cc/VkDMfC5n/RCO018-1469401173.jpg

(Who, btw, measured 17.34 Hercs):
https://i.postimg.cc/br8fVKz0/RCO013-1469401173-1.jpg

Was only 0.21 Hercs himself:
https://i.postimg.cc/GmHbBRV5/RCO020-1469401173.jpg

It's a good feat for Hulk against magic based attacks, sure. But not against physical attacks. As you say, it measures mystical energy. Foom is literally 83 times as 'Hercy' as WBH there....means bupkis in terms of him being able to not be stomped.

Baba Yaga's chicken house measured 1.3 Hercs:
https://i.postimg.cc/qB6CyXTw/Herc-009-2011-digital-Empire-021.jpg

That DOESN'T mean that her house is 6200% physically stronger than the most powerful Hulk we have ever seen on panel. All it means is that her house is 6200% more MAGICAL/mythological than WBH.

To reiterate: Hulk surviving (he was KOd) 133.45 Hercs, doesn't mean he withstood the physical equivalent of 133.45 of Hercules' punches. It means he survived an attack that was the equivalent of 133.45 times the magical energy radiated by 1 of Herc's punches/

It's really simple, and no idea why you or others have to complicate things. We already have scientific units for physical force, lol. None for magical force.

Ughh... Ure still using the same arguments fron that other thread.

Pretty sure i replied to something identical to this already.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Ughh... Ure still using the same arguments fron that other thread.

Pretty sure i replied to something identical to this already.

I am.

Because I messaged Galan, and he suggested a thread to collect all the arguments together, after which he will read them, then post a mod ruling once and for all either way.

This is actually going to be the last time we get to debate this properly. After which it will be definitively answered once and for all, and either I or you lot will have to keep quiet.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I am.

Because I messaged Galan, and he suggested a thread to collect all the arguments together, after which he will read them, then post a mod ruling once and for all either way.

This is actually going to be the last time we get to debate this properly. After which it will be definitively answered once and for all, and either I or you lot will have to keep quiet.
That Herc is mystical energy output?
Isnt that obvious?

Not to some members of the forum, no.

And my argument is that it's a measure of how magical something is - Hulk withstanding 133.45 Hercs isn't him withstanding the physical equivalent of 133.45 punches, or Herc's best punch x 133.45.

Its less than that. How much less? Don't know. Of the energy given off from Herc's punch, I don't know how much of it is mystical.

And no one does.

To reuse my analogy:

I radiate heat energy. The maximum amount of heat I radiate when I punch is 1 DarkSaint.

If you eat something that's 133.45 Darksaints, does that mean your stomach is tanking 133.45 of my best punches in your stomach? No.

It means you're eating something that's quite hot. Impressive, sure, but not as impressive as the physical force of my punch x 133.45.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Means nothing relative to physical strength.

I'm not talking about the energy type or it's catalyst. That isn't relevant. The only thing that is relevant are the Hercs. Did you read what I wrote? Anything that registers on the Herc scale shows how powerful any given mythical being is in direct comparison to the amount of power generated by a punch from the mythical Immortal Hercules. And it is indirectly physical, because of the mythical creatures ability to affect the physical world. Hope had the ability to harm non mythical creatures, which is a very physical action, denoting power strength.

On the Hulk's side; he was still able to physically resist an attack that may have torn another character apart. Once again, If I ever claimed that the Hulk, or any other non mythical creature could register on the Herc scale, it was certainly an error. I'm not talking about that though.

Hope could effect the physical universe. It doesn't matter whether it's with a punch, blaster attack, psi attack, liquid attack, pussy attack etc. The entity known as Hope was recorded to be as powerful as 133.5 Hercs. It wasn't actually stated that Hope could hit with 133.5 Hercs of force, if we're fully understanding the context. Just that Hope was weighed and measured to be 133 .5 Hercs.

Care to take a shot at how many Hercs Hope was actually able to hit with?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
To reuse my analogy:

I radiate heat energy. The maximum amount of heat I radiate when I punch is 1 DarkSaint.

If you eat something that's 133.45 Darksaints, does that mean your stomach is tanking 133.45 of my best punches in your stomach? No.

It means you're eating something that's quite hot. Impressive, sure, but not as impressive as the physical force of my punch x 133.45.

Precisely. Didn't I say that? I could've... Hmmm.

The radiation of nuclear bombs has a physical effect on the physical world, just like tradional bombs, but the resulting radiation of the former affects the physical world very differently.

Originally posted by Stoic
Precisely. Didn't I say that? I could've... Hmmm.

My point is, even if I was the world's strongest man, the amount of heat I radiate off a punch is incredibly tiny relative to being hit by the actual punch itself.

A mug of hot coffee would be hotter than 133.45 times the heat of my punch.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Yes. It is. But pak specifically tied this fictional measurement to a maximum physical act from Hercules. Going back to Foom(17 hercs)is a perfect and easy enuff example since he is a smashy smash kind of character. When more esoteric examples r used like the energy from Pandora's box, one can assume that the hope creature that was trapped inside is capable of output roughly equaling a being of 133 Herculeses strength/power...
That is yhe takeaway. Pak is literally spelling it out.

Again ure examples r off.

This was Celey's last post from the other thread.

My quibble is with the underlined. Because it's NOT 133 Hercules worth of power/strength.

Its literally spelled out (lol). Its 133 of a single component of Herc's punch. Not the total.

And as Herc isn't a magic blaster like Strange(lol), the magical component of his punch is small.

Stoic, this is yours:

Originally posted by Stoic
Explain away the word equivalent in reference to the punch in Hercs. You'll never be able to.

We assume that a way was invented to measure mystical beings like Hope, Baba Yaga, Hercules, Zeus, Thor, etc. This is your claim. I agree with it. But, since Hercules is also very much physical, 1 Herc becomes subjective due to the use of the word Equivalent. It says that 1 Herc is the equivalent level of power that Hercules can put off in one punch. When compared to how powerful Hope was regardless of power type, it registered on that scale as being more powerful than a physical punch that was thrown by Hercules by a being over 133 times as powerful as his punch. It does not say that Hope was 133.5 times more powerful than Hercules, rather it directly compares it to the punch. This is the number that we start at.

Simplified,
Although Hope may be a mystical creature, this does not take away the damage that it is capable of dishing out on the physical universe. The Hulk was actually hit very hard by Hope who possessed massive amounts of power. He survived. The End.

I have underlined what my quibble is. It actually takes a LOT out if all I am measuring is the magical level. Just like Ares or Hercules would be 1 Herc, it doesn't mean that they're punching with more power than DS merged Sentry, who would punch with 0 Hercs.

I see what DarkSaint is trying to achieve here, we all do, he made it painfully obvious.

Surprised nobody is taking this discussion seriously. ODG certainly would contribute (with a lot of insults), if he were still posting.

Just my two cents, in Pak's mind, "godly" / "mythological" power is actually... well, "magic+", iirc.

I think it's a worthy topic of debate, doesn't involve Superman (for once) and actually tests knowledge and debate skills.

Plus, for once, thanks to Galan modding, it actually has ramifications for the forum. How often can we get a topic that actually goes somewhere, and that we ALL have a say in?

I killed odg.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Stoic, this is yours:



I have underlined what my quibble is. It actually takes a LOT out if all I am measuring is the magical level. Just like Ares or Hercules would be 1 Herc, it doesn't mean that they're punching with more power than DS merged Sentry, who would punch with 0 Hercs.

In other words you ignored everything that I wrote.

Erm no? You had a summary that YOU wrote, and I underlined it?

Originally posted by Stoic
I'm not talking about the energy type or it's catalyst. That isn't relevant. The only thing that is relevant are the Hercs. Did you read what I wrote? Anything that registers on the Herc scale shows how powerful any given mythical being is in direct comparison to the amount of power generated by a punch from the mythical Immortal Hercules. And it is indirectly physical, because of the mythical creatures ability to affect the physical world. Hope had the ability to harm non mythical creatures, which is a very physical action, denoting power strength.

On the Hulk's side; he was still able to physically resist an attack that may have torn another character apart. Once again, If I ever claimed that the Hulk, or any other non mythical creature could register on the Herc scale, it was certainly an error. I'm not talking about that though.

Hope could effect the physical universe. It doesn't matter whether it's with a punch, blaster attack, psi attack, liquid attack, pussy attack etc. The entity known as Hope was recorded to be as powerful as 133.5 Hercs. It wasn't actually stated that Hope could hit with 133.5 Hercs of force, if we're fully understanding the context. Just that Hope was weighed and measured to be 133 .5 Hercs.

Care to take a shot at how many Hercs Hope was actually able to hit with?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Stoic, this is yours:



I have underlined what my quibble is. It actually takes a LOT out if all I am measuring is the magical level. Just like Ares or Hercules would be 1 Herc, it doesn't mean that they're punching with more power than DS merged Sentry, who would punch with 0 Hercs.

Hope was either capable of doing harm to non mythical creatures, or it wasn't. The Hulk was clearly hurt by its attack. The numbers are valid. Deal with it.

Ok, let me try again and explain....

Let's say I am Franklin Richards. I take 133.45 Colossus..es (Colossi?), merge them into one being, and shrink him.

I then put him inside Hulk's lungs. Colossus, being non magic, registers as 0 Hercs.

Based on the Hope feat, and ONLY the Hope feat, does Hulk tank him punching inside him? Colossus of course is weaker than Hercules physically as well.

2nd round: I merge 133.45 Galactuses. Still 0 Hercs, btw - and I do the same with th shrinking etc. Assume strength levels are the same as when full sized.

2 simple questions. Does Merged Colossus do more or less damage than 133.45 mystical units? Does Merged Galactus? They both radiate 0 mystical units, so per your logic, they do much less.

Simply saying 'deal with it' is shit tier debating, tbh. It damaged Hulk, sure.

But not in a way that is physically meaningful for Battleboards.

133.45 Gladiators, or Sentries or 10,000 Gladiators AND Sentries, would still radiate 0 Hercs. Using that showing as proof of Hulk's durability against non magical attacks is meaningless.

This thread is unnecessarily complicated. Colossus would be = 0.63 Hercs in power output for example.

Never knew Colossus was a mythological person who could radiate the kind of energy that was measurable in Hercs.

People only focus on the last scan, and miss the preceding one, which gives context as to WHAT kind of energy is being measured.

If a person is non mythological/magical, they have 0 Hercs. Simples..

Edit: there you go Stoic, this is what I was referring to, with Rages post.

Please set that general as your avi (or sig).

Just till this thread gets finished.

This whole "Herc" unit of measure shows just how stupid Marvel writers are. If it wasn't for the MCU, DC would be laughing their ass off at Marvel's incompetence.

Originally posted by zopzop
This whole "Herc" unit of measure shows just how stupid Marvel writers are. If it wasn't for the MCU, DC would be laughing their ass off at Marvel's incompetence.

I'm afraid DC is far too busy laughing at themselves:

https://66.media.tumblr.com/abddfbfa1d284028671f0c4a7539706a/tumblr_pmj16aVjGh1sqep2mo1_540.png

Originally posted by zopzop
This whole "Herc" unit of measure shows just how stupid Marvel writers are. If it wasn't for the MCU, DC would be laughing their ass off at Marvel's incompetence.

I don't think it's stupid...I actually really like it as a concept. The problem is when us battleboard fans try to shoehorn it into other concepts.

If you're magical/mystical, you have Hercs.

If you're not, you don't. And having fewer or more Hercs mean nothing to physical strength, otherwise a single Ares and Herc output more damage than 10,000 Sentries and Gladiators combined.

Amadeus say's it's energy right.
If you have 100 tons of weightlessness you could increase the energy level to the 100 square as energy is contained.
10,000 strength level is the first level. So the bomb would be a 10,000 ton one.

Wonderman operates on ionic energy, the same way hulk operates on gamma, and herc on mysticism/mythology power.

1 wonder= the total energy in wonderman's hardest punch
1 verde= the total energy in hulk's hardest punch
1 herc= the total energy in herc's hardest punch

Surely you can measure all of these punches in terms of how much kinetic energy each hit puts out, but it would be foolish to try and measure the ionic energy of the hulk, or the gamma energy of wonder man.

If herc's were a straight line measurement of physical force, wouldnt the hulk be way weaker than baba yaga? He had some percentage of a single herc (which was stated to be as a direct result from exposure to physical force) vs. Yaga's 1.5.

Exactly

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I don't think it's stupid...I actually really like it as a concept. The problem is when us battleboard fans try to shoehorn it into other concepts.

If you're magical/mystical, you have Hercs.

If you're not, you don't. And having fewer or more Hercs mean nothing to physical strength, otherwise a single Ares and Herc output more damage than 10,000 Sentries and Gladiators combined.

That would be exactly what you're attempting to do. As long as you continue to ignore the physical aspect of what a Herc was intended to be a measurement of.

Only True Genuine Mythological Entities Will Register On The Herc Scale. I get this. Can we get past this??? Like seriously WTF?

In this very comparison, Hope a Genuine Mythological creature is being compared to the Immortal Hercules another Genuine Mythological creature. When and (colorful word) why do you insist on making this about non mythological creatures?

Hope hit Hulk. It had a physical affect on the Hulk. Hulk survives. How hard did Hope hit the Hulk is all that really matters.

Originally posted by Stoic
That would be exactly what you're attempting to do. As long as you continue to ignore the physical aspect of what a Herc was intended to be a measurement of.

Only True Genuine Mythological Entities Will Register On The Herc Scale. I get this. Can we get past this??? Like seriously WTF?

In this very comparison, Hope a Genuine Mythological creature is being compared to the Immortal Hercules another Genuine Mythological creature. When and (colorful word) why do you insist on making this about non mythological creatures?

Hope hit Hulk. It had a physical affect on the Hulk. Hulk survives. How hard did Hope hit the Hulk is all that really matters.

How do you think hercules would do vs. Hope? Do you think if he lost two of them could take out hope?

To me, if this creature is really tough enough to fight 133 Hercules, then that would definitely put hope over someone like thanos, who couldnt defeat 133 mid heralds, but who has phucked hulk 3 ways to sunday.

Originally posted by ilikecomics
How do you think hercules would do vs. Hope? Do you think if he lost two of them could take out hope?

To me, if this creature is really tough enough to fight 133 Hercules, then that would definitely put hope over someone like thanos, who couldnt defeat 133 mid heralds, but who has phucked hulk 3 ways to sunday.

You're close.

Hope was never said to be as powerful as 133.45 x greater than Hercules. It says that Hope was 133.45 more powerful than a Punch from Hercules.

Now we have to figure out how powerful the hit truly was. It was significantly lower than being hit by a mythological creature that is 133.45 x more powerful than Hercules.

But outside of that, it isn't clear as to exactly how powerful Hope was.

It's actually a pretty vague statement until you do the math on how powerful you'd be if you were as powerful as 1 punch from Hercules.

Originally posted by Stoic
That would be exactly what you're attempting to do. As long as you continue to ignore the physical aspect of what a Herc was intended to be a measurement of.

Only True Genuine Mythological Entities Will Register On The Herc Scale. I get this. Can we get past this??? Like seriously WTF?

In this very comparison, Hope a Genuine Mythological creature is being compared to the Immortal Hercules another Genuine Mythological creature. When and (colorful word) why do you insist on making this about non mythological creatures?

Hope hit Hulk. It had a physical affect on the Hulk. Hulk survives. How hard did Hope hit the Hulk is all that really matters.

See Rage's post. He hasn't got past this, not being as enlightened as you. And you can be as sure as hell Carver hasn't either. So that post which you quoted wasn't strictly directed at you. <Insert colourful word>.

Why do I insist on making it about non mythological creatures? Because in a month, in a year's time, there will be a thread and either on or both of those two (plus others) will go in and use the Hope showing for non mythological creatures. Simple.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
See Rage's post. He hasn't got past this, not being as enlightened as you. And you can be as sure as hell Carver hasn't either. So that post which you quoted wasn't strictly directed at you. <Insert colourful word>.

Why do I insist on making it about non mythological creatures? Because in a month, in a year's time, there will be a thread and either on or both of those two (plus others) will go in and use the Hope showing for non mythological creatures. Simple.

I'm Sorry.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Never knew Colossus was a mythological person who could radiate the kind of energy that was measurable in Hercs.

People only focus on the last scan, and miss the preceding one, which gives context as to WHAT kind of energy is being measured.

If a person is non mythological/magical, they have 0 Hercs. Simples..

Edit: there you go Stoic, this is what I was referring to, with Rages post.

I understand what you're trying to point out, and I don't necessarily disagree. We might be splitting hairs here. Here's the entire scan:
https://abload.de/img/2apjbh.jpg

Pandora is clocked at 133 Hercs. Hercules is almost as strong as the Hulk, ergo we're f*cked. What you're suggesting would just require an additional step to come to the same conclusion. I.e. Chronos would be 30 Hercs, and Colossus is 0, but we know Colossus is weaker than Hercules, so he'd be at < 1 Herc and is out of his depth.

Unless you think 1 Herc has nothing to do with physical strength in terms of measurement, and only with "mystical energy". Which would be confusing as she specifically says the "maximum amount of energy he can expand in one blow" (Aka a punch) and in the same scan, his strength is compared to the Hulk as a barometer.

1 Herc = How hard Hercules can punch OWAW style

If only mystical entities can be sensed via Hercs, it would actually be a cool twist, and allow us to convert traditional strength vs. mystical power.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I understand what you're trying to point out, and I don't necessarily disagree. We might be splitting hairs here. Here's the entire scan:
https://abload.de/img/2apjbh.jpg

Pandora is clocked at 133 Hercs. Hercules is almost as strong as the Hulk, ergo we're f*cked. What you're suggesting would just require an additional step to come to the same conclusion. I.e. Chronos would be 30 Hercs, and Colossus is 0, but we know Colossus is weaker than Hercules, so he'd be at < 1 Herc and is out of his depth.

Unless you think 1 Herc has nothing to do with physical strength in terms of measurement, and only with "mystical energy". Which would be confusing as she specifically says the "maximum amount of energy he can expand in one blow" (Aka a punch) and in the same scan, his strength is compared to the Hulk as a barometer.

1 Herc = How hard Hercules can punch OWAW style

If only mystical entities can be sensed via Hercs, it would actually be a cool twist, and allow us to convert traditional strength vs. mystical power.

Its the entire page, yes, but you missed the preceding page (so you've only presented half the information). Where Cosimo specifically says what energy Herc expends that she is measuring. I can let you see it for yourself if you want, but I cropped the important panel at the start of this thread. Cosimo was interrupted halfway through her explanation, and people only ever focus on the second half of her sentence.

And yes, I DO think Hercs have NOTHING to do with physical strength in terms of measurement. WBH when he was stomping Fin Fang Foom, was only 0.21 Hercs. Foom himself was clocked at 17.3. yet he was literally being stomped on like a bug by the greatest Hulk we've ever seen.

Who was still only 20% of Hercules. In short, it's how mystical Hulk was at the time, NOT how strong he was.

Hyperspace is only active when accessed. Herc level is always active giving him greater power than the Power Cosmic.
Mythological Power.

Time for mod ruling yet?

I hope so. Everyone has given their views....

My points:

1. That a Herc measures nothing more than the mythological/mystical levels of a person/item.

2. It has nothing to do with the physical power behind an attack - Ares and Hercules would measure as 1 Herc, WBH at his angriest is 0.21 Hercs (having stomped someone measuring 17 Hercs) and 10,0000 DS Sentries and Gladiators stacked would measure as 0 Hercs.

3. This means that in a thread with Hulk vs a non-magical/mystical attack, Hulk surviving Hope's internal attack means nothing.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I hope so. Everyone has given their views....

My points:

1. That a Herc measures nothing more than the mythological/mystical levels of a person/item.

2. It has nothing to do with the physical power behind an attack - Ares and Hercules would measure as 1 Herc, WBH at his angriest is 0.21 Hercs (having stomped someone measuring 17 Hercs) and 10,0000 DS Sentries and Gladiators stacked would measure as 0 Hercs.

3. This means that in a thread with Hulk vs a non-magical/mystical attack, Hulk surviving Hope's internal attack means nothing.

I totally agree with you.

Do you wonder why fin fang foom is more mystical than herc, or why hope was so much more mystical than herc?

Foom was splashed with wishing well water. Being a big dragon, he prob had more skin to splash on.

As for Hope? Pandora's box was meant to be Zeus' revenge against humanity, so he put loads of stuff inside to attack humanity. So prob that's why.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I hope so. Everyone has given their views....

My points:

1. That a Herc measures nothing more than the mythological/mystical levels of a person/item.

2. It has nothing to do with the physical power behind an attack - Ares and Hercules would measure as 1 Herc, WBH at his angriest is 0.21 Hercs (having stomped someone measuring 17 Hercs) and 10,0000 DS Sentries and Gladiators stacked would measure as 0 Hercs.

3. This means that in a thread with Hulk vs a non-magical/mystical attack, Hulk surviving Hope's internal attack means nothing.

It does mean something in inverse. But the math would have to be done. As a physical substance, the Hulk resisted that force. Now do the math on what that force measured.

Originally posted by Stoic
It does mean something in inverse. But the math would have to be done. As a physical substance, the Hulk resisted that force. Now do the math on what that force measured.

I don't understand - and I don't know how it can be done. Hence, my position - that we cannot calculate it, therefore it is meaningless as a physical force.

You'd calculate it in inverse. We know that mythological creatures can affect the physical universe, which is what Hercules, Zeus, and a newly transformed Fin Fang Foom, who was made that way by the mythical waters of the mythical Well. He ceased being a natural creature, and became a mythical one like Perseus, or Achiles. Power type does not matter. What matters is their potential effects on a physical environment, and how much of that physical environment would be displaced from an assault from them. This registers in as Hercs.

We could fairly assume for example; that one Herc would be equal to 1/10th of Hercules' total power, because of the reference source which clearly defines what a Herc is. Therfore, we could assume that 1/10th of his body mass is the equivalent of one Herc in terms of total power yield used to displace the physical environment. We would then divide the Herc level by that number and get an accurate description of how powerful the mythological creature is in comparison to the mythical Hercules.

This has nothing to do with how powerful a natural creature like the Hulk is. That number is what the Hulk physically resisted in a relatively calm state though.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I don't understand - and I don't know how it can be done. Hence, my position - that we cannot calculate it, therefore it is meaningless as a physical force.

Reading this made me think "wow, calculating hercs as a physical force is like when socialists argue you can have enterprise without cost calculation." which, is funny to me because people who argue for socialism require an unquantifible, supernatural figure.

I hope my bad joke isnt against a forum rule.

Originally posted by Stoic
You'd calculate it in inverse. We know that mythological creatures can affect the physical universe, which is what Hercules, Zeus, and a newly transformed Fin Fang Foom, who was made that way by the mythical waters of the mythical Well. He ceased being a natural creature, and became a mythical one like Perseus, or Achiles. Power type does not matter. What matters is their potential effects on a physical environment, and how much of that physical environment would be displaced from an assault from them. This registers in as Hercs.

We could fairly assume for example; that one Herc would be equal to 1/10th of Hercules' total power, because of the reference source which clearly defines what a Herc is. Therfore, we could assume that 1/10th of his body mass is the equivalent of one Herc in terms of total power yield used to displace the physical environment. We would then divide the Herc level by that number and get an accurate description of how powerful the mythological creature is in comparison to the mythical Hercules.

This has nothing to do with how powerful a natural creature like the Hulk is. That number is what the Hulk physically resisted in a relatively calm state though.

Is it 1/10th? Why is it a fair assumption?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Is it 1/10th? Why is it a fair assumption?

It was an approximation in terms of total percentage of power used up in a punch. Gotta go. Work.

Meh, then one might as well pick a number to suit their ends.

Someone wanting to low-ball can say it's only 1/100th, or 1/1000th.

Certainly, if we were using the heat analogy, the maximum heat energy I radiate off my body (or Tyson or Ali, whatever) as I punch is certainly much less than the kinetic energy at the end of Tyson's fist.

And when it comes to heralds, the analogy obviously breaks down, but not in the way you would hope. Because we have zero idea of how mythological Hercules is, lol. I mean, we can work out how much heat energy a human radiates, and measure Tyson's punch, and then form a relationship - but even metas like Luke Cage, for example, punch far more in excess of the heat they produce (now imagine Blue Marvel, for example).

So if, for example, I worked out that a normal human radiates heat that's equal to 10% of their punch's kinetic energy.....scaling that up to Blue Marvel (as an example) would mean he's radiating thousands of degrees, lol.

And as you say, if a Herc is a measure of how mythological beings influence the physical world....Ares and Herc etc don't exactly melt their surroundings just by standing there, so the Hercs they radiate must be absolutely tiny.

You would have to be willing to ignore the hundreds of feats that the mythical Immortal Hercules has accomplished. Physically moving the island of Manhattan is a direct example of Hercules using 90 to 100% of all that his entire body can generate in terms of physical force. I'm just reminding you of what the definition of a Herc means, and without moving the goalposts, we automatically assume that other mythical beings are able to launch physical attacks as well. One Herc is for all intents and purposes an action word, or verb. What is a Herc again? A physical action. We have entire examples of what The Gift that Hercules can give is. This isn't as complicated as you've made it.

Now if he's using 90 to 100% of of his entire body in order to move the island of Manhattan, what % of his body is being used to launch a serious full punch? Well his legs come into play, the arm launching the punch, his abs, glutes, and a portion of his lats. That would actually appear to be slightly more than 10% of his relevant potential body mass. It would be closer to 25%. So how much force would Hercules be able to generate if he were approximately 75% weaker? How much real estate would he be able to diplace? Again; we assume that other mythical beings are capable of generating force, and are fully capable of attacking, and, we were given the definition of what a Herc is and it's an action, or verb.

Wait wait wait.

You're back to saying it's a physical action. It's not.

When Tyson punches (or let's use the world's strongest man, whatever...) the heat energy he radiates is tiny relative to the kinetic energy at the end of his fist.

When Herc punches, the magical energy he radiates is tiny relative to the kinetic energy of his fist.

It's really not complicated, despite you trying to make it sound complicated. Cosimo specifically said what energy she is measuring, and her sentence was split into two by people who didn't read the full comic.

Get a mod ruling. Define what a Herc is, which was clear as day. It was defined as being a punch. What is a punch? An action, a physical one right? A verb. Are you in the phucking twilight zone? Listen get the ruling after your spiel, phuck this shit i'm out.

Originally posted by Stoic
Get a mod ruling. Define what a Herc is, which was clear as day. It was defined as being a punch. What is a punch? An action, a physical one right? A verb. Are you in the phucking twilight zone? Listen get the ruling after your spiel, phuck this shit i'm out.

Never defined as a punch, but the energy radiated when he punches, as a mythological being.

Just like when Tyson, a guy famed for his punching power, punches, he radiates heat energy like all human beings. The maximum energy he gives off is a Tyson.

Has no relation to his punching power, and I am pretty certain I can withstand the body heat given off by him. But certainly not the physical punch.

Have sent the PM.

A summary, and what I'm after a ruling for.

1. A Herc is just a unit of mystical energy.

2. That a Herc measures nothing more than the mythological/mystical levels of a person/item.

3. It has nothing to do with the physical power behind an attack - Ares and Hercules would measure as 1 Herc, WBH at his angriest is 0.21 Hercs (having stomped someone measuring 17 Hercs) and 10,0000 DS Sentries and Gladiators stacked would measure as 0 Hercs.

4. This means that in a thread with Hulk vs a non-magical/mystical attack, Hulk surviving Hope's internal attack means nothing as we cannot relate the magical attack to a physical attack. Cosimo specifically said it was only the magical radiation she was measuring . The heat given off by Tyson as he max punches is far far lower in terms of destructive energy compared to being at the receiving end of his maximum all out punch. In ratio terms,the radiation given off by Hercules is even lower than that compared to his top physical feats.

https://tinyurl.com/t7eeet3

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
https://i.imgur.com/FRIOVK9.png

PUNISHER, lmao.

This must be at least 300 hercs of mystical bullshit.

Closing for the time being.

Sorry for the delay. I plan on going through this Sunday/Monday to see what I can come up with. I'll also get with Pr to see if he can do the same.

Quick update.

I read through the responses and have my 'verdict'(or whatever you want to call it.) Still waiting to see if Pr also wants to weigh-in before I post.

For anyone interested, the ruling has been posted in this thread here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14257489#post14257489

Reopening.

Questions/comments are welcome.

Question: how would it relate if I say, used Pym Particles to shrink 100 Hercules, combined them into one being, then put him inside Hulk's lungs?

Carver doesn't understand the ruling.

Please ask away

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Question: how would it relate if I say, used Pym Particles to shrink 100 Hercules, combined them into one being, then put him inside Hulk's lungs?

Thr ruling for the measurement was final. It isn't 100 tiny Hercules punches. We know what a Herc is, and it isn't a power punch from miniscule Hercules.

Originally posted by Stoic
Thr ruling for the measurement was final. It isn't 100 tiny Hercules punches. We know what a Herc is, and it isn't a power punch from miniscule Hercules.

My point being with Pym Particles, the strength level is the same

Let's use 100 of whatever brick you wish who is close to Hercules in strength, but isn't mystical

Originally posted by carver9
Didnt understand that ruling not one bit but, ok.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Can someone explain to Carv what the ruling means

I thought it was pretty clear, no?

In short: "Hercs" are not a means of accurately quantifying physical strength. It is moreso a way of gauging mystical energy output.

Thought so.

It's not a measurement of strength, but it should be a measure of punching power relative to Hercules. That energy output is based on Hercules' most powerful punch right? Thus, wouldn't 133 hercs represent the energy output of 133 of Hercules' punches? I mean, it's an ambiguous measurement due to it not being real world, but we have a reasonable relative idea of how hard Hercules can punch compared to other characters.

Nobody asked/interviewed Pak about that?

Originally posted by TheHulkster
It's not a measurement of strength, but it should be a measure of punching power relative to Hercules. That energy output is based on Hercules' most powerful punch right? Thus, wouldn't 133 hercs represent the energy output of 133 of Hercules' punches? I mean, it's an ambiguous measurement due to it not being real world, but we have a reasonable relative idea of how hard Hercules can punch compared to other characters.
Same wavelength here... Sort of.

A magical being who registers at 5 hercs while punching someone could potentially be as strong as herc x 5 as silly ad that may sound.

I don't believe even Pak himself knew what he wanted Herc units to be.

I think he knew based on how it was initially described, and then went wild with it. He applied in so many nonsensical ways that it got too confusing. Eventually it evolved into an uncontrollable nonsensical monster. But going by the bones of it, the intention was clear.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
It's not a measurement of strength, but it should be a measure of punching power relative to Hercules. That energy output is based on Hercules' most powerful punch right? Thus, wouldn't 133 hercs represent the energy output of 133 of Hercules' punches? I mean, it's an ambiguous measurement due to it not being real world, but we have a reasonable relative idea of how hard Hercules can punch compared to other characters.

But it's only the maximum mystical energy given off by his punch.

And you have zero idea how much magic he radiates when he punches.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But it's only the maximum mystical energy given off by his punch.

And you have zero idea how much magic he radiates when he punches.

But we have a specific statement of equivalence. If it says that Hercules' most powerful punch produces one herc, or one herc represents his most powerful punch, then we would have ambiguity. But saying that it is equivalent of the maximum amount of energy produced by one of his punches is relative measurement.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
But we have a specific statement of equivalence. If it says that Hercules' most powerful punch produces one herc, or one herc represents his most powerful punch, then we would have ambiguity. But saying that it is equivalent of the maximum amount of energy produced by one of his punches is relative measurement.

But you're omitting the first part of Cosimo's explanation.

The energy she measures is the mystical radiation. So she is measuring the mystical radiation from Herc's most powerful punch.

The problem is that none of us know how much mystical radiation he radiates when he's having an all out punch.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But you're omitting the first part of Cosimo's explanation.

The energy she measures is the mystical radiation. So she is measuring the mystical radiation from Herc's most powerful punch.

The problem is that none of us know how much mystical radiation he radiates when he's having an all out punch.

But we know what that mystical radiation equivalence is. Whatever amount of mystical radiation is emitted from his best punch is the equivalent of the amount of energy emitted from that punch. It doesn't matter how much mystical radiation is emitted as long as we know it's general energy equivalence.

A good example is that the energy in one ounce of uranium is equivalent to the energy in 100 tons of coal.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
But we know what that mystical radiation equivalence is. Whatever amount of mystical radiation is emitted from his best punch is the equivalent of the amount of energy emitted from that punch. It doesn't matter how much mystical radiation is emitted as long as we know it's general energy equivalence.

A good example is that the energy in one ounce of uranium is equivalent to the energy in 100 tons of coal.

But you have to understand no matter how much coal you burn you wont see radiation anywhere close to using the energy in that uraniim.

So for a human, the heat they make from exerting a punch doesnt come close to equaling the kinetic energy at the end of a punch.

Change the energy from hercs to gamma. The hulk is 100 gamma units, superman is zero, that doesnt tell us who punches harder.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
But we know what that mystical radiation equivalence is. Whatever amount of mystical radiation is emitted from his best punch is the equivalent of the amount of energy emitted from that punch. It doesn't matter how much mystical radiation is emitted as long as we know it's general energy equivalence.

A good example is that the energy in one ounce of uranium is equivalent to the energy in 100 tons of coal.

No, we don't. The amount of mystical energy radiated is equivalent to the amount of mystical energy emitted when he throws his best punch. It's circular, and that's the beauty and simplicity of the Herc- it actually makes a ton of sense.

Because all that she is measuring, is the mystical energy. Replace 'mystical' with 'heat' and you will see what I am talking about.

All humans emit heat energy. I develop a unit to describe this, called Darksaints. The maximum amount of energy.....Mike Tyson....emits when he throws an all out punch, is 1 DarkSaint.

With me so far?

Now, what type of energy is this maximum amount of energy I am measuring? It is the heat, and only the heat component. Not the kinetic part at the end of Tyson's fist, or the sound of his hand hitting my face, or whatever.

Hercules is radiating mystical energy. When he punches, he emits X amount of mystical energy, which bears no relation to the kinetic energy, just like the heat emitted by Tyson bears no relation to actually being on the receiving end of his punch (or if it does, it's tiny).

Dr. Cosimo does not say that a Herc is equivalent to the maximum amount of "MYSTICAL ENERGY" expended in one blow. She says the maximum amount of "ENERGY". You can't add words not stated. Saying that one unit of mystical energy is the equivalent of one unit of mystical energy makes no sense. A statement of equivalence by it's very nature is a comparison of two different things.

Heat and radiation are biproducts of energy expenditure and don't equate to said expenditure. Energy is measured in joules and while we don't know the specific nature of the fictional herc, the wording makes it clear that one herc is the equivalent of however many joules are derived from Hercules' best punch.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Dr. Cosimo does not say that a Herc is equivalent to the maximum amount of "MYSTICAL ENERGY" expended in one blow. She says the maximum amount of "ENERGY". You can't add words not stated. Saying that one unit of mystical energy is the equivalent of one unit of mystical energy makes no sense. A statement of equivalence by it's very nature is a comparison of two different things.

Heat and radiation are biproducts of energy expenditure and don't equate to said expenditure. Energy is measured in joules and while we don't know the specific nature of the fictional herc, the wording makes it clear that one herc is the equivalent of however many joules are derived from Hercules' best punch.

At this point and time, the rule basically states Hercules generates mystical power in a punch. Glad we found this out. With Hercules generating mystical forces from his body every time he swing his arms, I feel bad for beings who are vulnerable to mystical attacks. Punching Herc should hurt.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Dr. Cosimo does not say that a Herc is equivalent to the maximum amount of "MYSTICAL ENERGY" expended in one blow. She says the maximum amount of "ENERGY". You can't add words not stated. Saying that one unit of mystical energy is the equivalent of one unit of mystical energy makes no sense. A statement of equivalence by it's very nature is a comparison of two different things.

Heat and radiation are biproducts of energy expenditure and don't equate to said expenditure. Energy is measured in joules and while we don't know the specific nature of the fictional herc, the wording makes it clear that one herc is the equivalent of however many joules are derived from Hercules' best punch.

And what "ENERGY" is she talking about?

The mystical energy mythological beings radiate.

If I am studying heat energy, why would I suddenly include kinetic and sound etc energy when I measure Tyson's best punch?

Originally posted by -Pr-



He's an idiot.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And what "ENERGY" is she talking about?

The mystical energy mythological beings radiate.

If I am studying heat energy, why would I suddenly include kinetic and sound etc energy when I measure Tyson's best punch?

She is talking about the "maximum amount of energy Hercules could EXPEND in one blow", which is a quote from the book as well as the ruling.

EXPEND: to make use of for a specific purpose : utilize

RADIATE: emit (energy, especially light or heat) in the form of rays or waves.

"Expend" and "radiate" are two different things.

Outside of comics themselves, has anyone ever touched upon the subject of Herc units?

Interview with Pak? Some handbook?

Letter column, maybe? Or intro/recap page on the beginning of comics? Anything?

Originally posted by TheHulkster
She is talking about the "maximum amount of energy Hercules could EXPEND in one blow", which is a quote from the book as well as the ruling.

EXPEND: to make use of for a specific purpose : utilize

RADIATE: emit (energy, especially light or heat) in the form of rays or waves.

"Expend" and "radiate" are two different things.

But again, you omitted the first part (before she got interrupted by the general).

She's creating the Herc unit when measuring a specific type of energy that's being radiated. When Herc does an all out punch, he expends a certain amount of energy, which is radiated (as he is a mythological being) and is then captured and measured.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Outside of comics themselves, has anyone ever touched upon the subject of Herc units?

Interview with Pak? Some handbook?

Letter column, maybe? Anything?

Carver asked him on Twitter, and was fully confident he was going to get a reply on this.

Put it this way:. Carver never brought it up again. Draw your own conclusions.

Honestly, Brevoort might be getting tons of hate, but I liked his formspring page.

Think he's active on tumblr now:

https://brevoortformspring.tumblr.com/ask

That's where I'd ask Pak considers himself to be Carver the First (a.k.a. True Carver) --- carver the second and carver the ninth are obviously beneath his notice, he will never answer their prayers.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Glad me, you and Galan took the time to consider the ruling on "Hercs" and make a ruling that you actually posed.

Lol well.....what do you mods think of Hulksters viewpoint (although why he waited until now to make them is mystifying)

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But again, you omitted the first part (before she got interrupted by the general).

She's creating the Herc unit when measuring a specific type of energy that's being radiated. When Herc does an all out punch, he expends a certain amount of energy, which is radiated (as he is a mythological being) and is then captured and measured.

I'm aware of that part. Which takes me back to my earlier point. That fictional unit of radiating mystical energy is specifically declared as equivalent to the maximum amount of energy Hercules expends in one blow. We know that the heat radiating from Mike Tyson's punch is not equivalent to the energy he expends when throwing a punch. But this is a fictional, mystical energy that need not work like your heat example and based on the declaration of equivalence, apparently doesn't.

Why doesn't it?

I am measuring the heat radiated off all warm blooded beings.

I ask Tyson to throw his hardest punch. And measure the max heat expended.

What does that have to do with his strength? I chose Tyson because he's famous for his punches etc etc.

But even though I've used the same syntax and words as Cosimo, heat =/= strength level.

Hercules was always an ant compared to the Hulk, but we don't need some bullshit herc units to know that.

And Hulk's low readings make sense in general, as he has very few mystic abilities --- subtle abilities --- and he's more of a product of science than magic.

Hell, Lady Deathstrike could be more "magical" than Hulk, for all we know.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why doesn't it?

I am measuring the heat radiated off all warm blooded beings.

I ask Tyson to throw his hardest punch. And measure the max heat expended.

What does that have to do with his strength? I chose Tyson because he's famous for his punches etc etc.

But even though I've used the same syntax and words as Cosimo, heat =/= strength level.

To your question of "why doesn't it" I will quote what I said in my last post.

"That fictional unit of radiating mystical energy is specifically declared as equivalent to the maximum amount of energy Hercules expends in one blow."

Magic is not bound by the laws of physics.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
To your question of "why doesn't it" I will quote what I said in my last post.

"That fictional unit of radiating mystical energy is specifically declared as equivalent to the maximum amount of energy Hercules expends in one blow."

Magic is not bound by the laws of physics.

So trying to relate it to a physical measure such as strength is incorrect.

Thanks, that was my point all this while.

General's reaction is what makes the whole thing iffy.

And Banner, instead of trying to explain the concept of herc units to him again, tells him that Hercules is not as strong as the Hulk.

So I can understand why guys like yourself, carv, ODG, Rage or Celey are still thinking of it as of some general "power level" measurement.

DS provided more than enough proof for mods to get a ruling on it, though.

Pr most likely didn't give it a single glance, but Bada always cared about the Hulk and Galan tries his best to be objective.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
General's reaction is what makes the whole thing iffy.

And Banner, instead of trying to explain the concept of herc units to him again, tells him that Hercules is not as strong as the Hulk.

So I can understand why guys like yourself, carv, ODG, Rage or Celey are still thinking of it as of some general "power level" measurement.

DS provided more than enough proof for mods to get a ruling on it, though.

Pr most likely didn't give it a single glance, but Bada always cared about the Hulk and Galan tries his best to be objective.

How ****ing dare you. I read HOTM. TWICE. I suffered for this shit.

Okay, okay.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So trying to relate it to a physical measure such as strength is incorrect.

Thanks, that was my point all this while.

The book specifically relates it to a physical measure. Apparently you will ignore that point no matter how often it is mentioned.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
General's reaction is what makes the whole thing iffy.

And Banner, instead of trying to explain the concept of herc units to him again, tells him that Hercules is not as strong as the Hulk.

So I can understand why guys like yourself, carv, ODG, Rage or Celey are still thinking of it as of some general "power level" measurement.

DS provided more than enough proof for mods to get a ruling on it, though.

Pr most likely didn't give it a single glance, but Bada always cared about the Hulk and Galan tries his best to be objective.

The General's reaction and Banner's response is very significant.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
The book specifically relates it to a physical measure. Apparently you will ignore that point no matter how often it is mentioned.

But.....you just said.....magic....ignores physics.....

And again, if we relate it to physics:

1. Humans radiate heat.
2. I am measuring the energy humans radiate.
3. The maximum amount of energy Tyson expends when he throws his max punch is 1 Tyson.

Points 2 and 3 are all related ( I was interrupted midway through my talk).

The heat expended by Tyson has nothing to do with his strength level.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But.....you just said.....magic....ignores physics.....

And again, if we relate it to physics:

1. Humans radiate heat.
2. I am measuring the energy humans radiate.
3. The maximum amount of energy Tyson expends when he throws his max punch is 1 Tyson.

Points 2 and 3 are all related ( I was interrupted midway through my talk).

The heat expended by Tyson has nothing to do with his strength level.

But magic does not ignore what the storyteller specifies. In this story, the storyteller specifies..

https://imgur.com/a/37KQXw1

Heat and hercs are two extremely different things. Heat has nothing to do with Tyson's "strength". Hercs on the other hand...

https://imgur.com/a/37KQXw1

But again you are only using half of Cosimo's explanation.

What energy is the maximum of that Hercules expends?

https://i.postimg.cc/fb1KSkhy/RCO005-1469444904.jpg
Mystical energy that's radiated by mythological beings.

In any case, the ruling has been made. It has nothing to do with physical ability

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But again you are only using half of Cosimo's explanation.

What energy is the maximum of that Hercules expends?

https://i.postimg.cc/fb1KSkhy/RCO005-1469444904.jpg
Mystical energy that's radiated by mythological beings.

In any case, the ruling has been made. It has nothing to do with physical ability

I posted the difference between expending and radiating. Nowhere is it stated that he expends mystical energy in a punch. Just radiates it and that radiated mystical energy measurement is equivalent to physical expenditure of the punch.

Nowhere does it say physical expenditure.

Anyway, the ruling has been made