Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

This is Rebels Vader. Fight takes place on Mortis.

**BONUS**
Vader vs. The Son & The Daughter

Even on Mortis, Anakin needed special circumstances to unlock his full potential and ragdoll The Son and The Daughter. When these circumstances were not in place he was one shooted multiple times by the Son. Even if Vader didn't lost his potential after Mustafar, he would still need the same circumstances Anakin had in Overlords.

What circumstances?

As I remember, Kenobi just had to remind Anakin that Mortis "was the Force... Use it!"

He was in a special state of mind. If it was that simple, he would have replicated the feat in the next two episodes, but he didn't. In fact, he was one shooted a few times when he tried to fight The Son in these two episodes.

Anakin never came close to acheiving his full potential

What I'm wondering is if Vader's presence on Mortis would actually empower The Son..?

Originally posted by Darthadi
Even on Mortis, Anakin needed special circumstances to unlock his full potential and ragdoll The Son and The Daughter. When these circumstances were not in place he was one shooted multiple times by the Son. Even if Vader didn't lost his potential after Mustafar, he would still need the same circumstances Anakin had in Overlords.


In Disney Vader hasnt lost potential.

Vader shouldnt need those circumstances because Vader has far better control/mastery over the Force.

Disney Vader not losing his potential, aside from being shit writing, also doesn't make all that much sense given how all the opponents we see him given trouble by now.

How the hell did Ahsoka gain any ground on vader if he started out miles ahead and grew at a much faster rate

Canon has Vader > Anakin but not in every single facet. Suited Vader's mobility is still lesser than Anakin's.

Originally posted by Galan007
Ahsoka was quite a prodigy herself, given her parity with Maul when she was, what? 17 years old?

Safe to say that her own abilities would have also grown considerably in the 15 years between TCW and Rebels. The very fact that she was able to compete with Vader(who is "light years" beyond the likes of Dooku and Maul) for as long as she did is a testament to her own growth.
Ahsoka may be a prodigy, but her growth rate would suggest that she grew faster than Vader or at least at the same speed (The disparity between ROTS Anakin and ROTS Ahsoka should be at least as big as the one between Rebels Vader and Rebels Ahsoka, if not bigger). For this to be the case Ahsoka should have to has comparable potential (if not bigger) to the Chosen One if we assume Vader didn't lost potential after Mustafar. Of course, this would not make any sense and would be lore breaking.
The only potential explanations i can think of are:
1. Vader actually lost potential (But he is still more powerfull than ROTS Anakin as made clear by a few sources)
2. Vader didn't lost potential, but his power growth was slowed down significantly by psihological reasons or something like that.

Not really.

Ahsoka preformed admirably against Vader, but she was still beaten decisively in both 'rounds' of their fight. She wasn't close to his level at all -- she was just able to contend with him for a bit longer than most others could have.

But no, Vader's injuries didn't reduce his potential, and he was stated to be stronger than ever after RotS.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not really.

Ahsoka preformed admirably against Vader, but she was still beaten decisively in both 'rounds' of their fight. She wasn't close to his level at all -- she was just able to contend with him for a bit longer than most others could have.

But no, Vader's injuries didn't reduce his potential, and he was stated to be stronger than ever after RotS.
So you think there is a bigger gap between Rebels Vader and Rebels Ahsoka than between their ROTS versions? I can't really imagine ROTS Ahsoka lasting too long against Anakin.
And i agree that Vader>ROTS Anakin in actualised power. Never contested that and i actually like the idea. I'm just not so sure about potential. I know that there is nothing in canon about Vader losing potential (at least i'm not aware of any), but it's just so strange that he didn't surpassed Palpatine in 20+ years when his potential is just so much bigger. In ROTS he is allready close to Sidious based on his performance against Dooku and it's implied that he was going to surpass him soon, but after Mustafar he never did.You'd think that by ROTJ he should be capable to wipe the floor with Palps even factoring the later's own growth. Luke with lesser potential aparently surpassed Palpatine in a similar amount of time. Maybe Luke is just a faster learner even if he has less potential?
There is also some dialog in the comics between Sheev and Vader where Sheev said that Vader fell of the mark or something like that. But i supose that could refer to something else than force potential.
Anakin growth between AOTC and ROTS just semms to be bigger than his post Mustafar growth.
If he didn't lost potential there should be other reasons for all of this and psihological reasons are the most likely IMO. This is just me trying to rationalise all this mess. There is also Chee saiyng that Vader never became as powerful as Sidious hoped, but i know their tweets are not necessarily canon.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not really.

Ahsoka preformed admirably against Vader, but she was still beaten decisively in both 'rounds' of their fight. She wasn't close to his level at all -- she was just able to contend with him for a bit longer than most others could have.

Maybe we have different definitions of decisive, but Vader wasn't presented an opportunity to kill or incapacitate ahsoka in like 2 and a half minuites of fighting. And even when vader's starts tiring her out, it comes after a minuite and a half where neither gain significant ground.

Compare that to Anakin outright incapacitating dooku in like 20 seconds, and it's basically a marathon by comparison.

If there's isn't a degree of closeness from that fight, than what exactly constitutes closeness? Only examples of closer fights i can think off would be anakin vs kenobi and yoda vs sidious


Sure she's a prodigee, but her potential isn't as high as anakin's who, per the source you cited for having his potential undamaged, still had a higher potential than anyone who was in the order(which would include ahsoka).

So if as of tcw, she's far below anakin, shouldn't she be getting stomped as of rebels?

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
He also needed time to adjust to his suit, get over padme's death and accept his fate

Which I'm sure slowed his progress quite a bit Sure, Vader required some amount of time to get used to his armor/prosthetics. But by Lords of the Sith(which is set 8 years after RotS), he was fully accustomed to his armor, and was more powerful than ever:


Vader's increased connection to the Force is why he was also stated to be Palpatine's most powerful apprentice by "light years":
https://i.imgur.com/CAvsKag.jpg


...Although I highly doubt it took Vader that long to acclimate to his armor -- especially given the events of the comics series. I mean, just a few days after RotS, Vader was already fighting Kirak Infil'a, who was stated to be: "A Jedi more powerful than ANY Vader has faced before" in the solicits for issue #3.

srug

Originally posted by Darthadi
So you think there is a bigger gap between Rebels Vader and Rebels Ahsoka than between their ROTS versions? I can't really imagine ROTS Ahsoka lasting too long against Anakin.
And i agree that Vader>ROTS Anakin in actualised power. Never contested that and i actually like the idea. I'm just not so sure about potential. I know that there is nothing in canon about Vader losing potential (at least i'm not aware of any), but it's just so strange that he didn't surpassed Palpatine in 20+ years when his potential is just so much bigger. In ROTS he is allready close to Sidious based on his performance against Dooku and it's implied that he was going to surpass him soon, but after Mustafar he never did.You'd think that by ROTJ he should be capable to wipe the floor with Palps even factoring the later's own growth. Luke with lesser potential aparently surpassed Palpatine in a similar amount of time. Maybe Luke is just a faster learner even if he has less potential?
There is also some dialog in the comics between Sheev and Vader where Sheev said that Vader fell of the mark or something like that. But i supose that could refer to something else than force potential.
Anakin growth between AOTC and ROTS just semms to be bigger than his post Mustafar growth.
If he didn't lost potential there should be other reasons for all of this and psihological reasons are the most likely IMO. This is just me trying to rationalise all this mess. There is also Chee saiyng that Vader never became as powerful as Sidious hoped, but i know their tweets are not necessarily canon. I've mentioned this all before, but aside from Chee's Tweets stating that grievous injuries(like those sustained by Maul and Vader) do not gimp potential in canon, Vader's midi-chlorian count was still stated to be 20,000+, and the highest among Jedi/Sith:
https://i.imgur.com/7eyHCOP.jpg


And Paul Kemp(writer of Lords of the Sith) spoke a bit on Vader's potential as well:
https://i.imgur.com/KEXldVQ.jpg
-Insider 157

So by all accounts, his potential was not diminished after RotS -- even Palpatine was still "wary" of it.


As for why he never transcended Palpatine: the implication is that Palpatine was only giving Vader just enough teachings/knowledge to keep him subservient and wanting more, whilst hoarding as much knowledge as possible for himself:
https://i.imgur.com/z4ek7aP.jpg
-Insider #157


https://i.imgur.com/sbCKPyK.jpg
-Darth Vader v2 #24


And given Palpatine's own ungodly potential, that would explain why he was always a notch above Vader.



Same basic thing applies to Luke's growth. Yes, the indication is that Luke became more powerful than RotJ Palpatine by the ST-era, but he was hoarding/studying massive amounts of knowledge as well...

In Darth Vader v2 #10, we see that Luke eventually finds Jocasta Nu's makeshift 'school' and trove of Holocrons:
https://i.imgur.com/Ch9B5YU.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ihWmjjP.jpg

And before her death, Jocasta had recorded ALL of her knowledge(pertaining to the Jedi, Sith, and Force in general) onto these Holocrons in hopes of restarting the Jedi Order from scratch:
https://i.imgur.com/NQOMOYy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ucgXQeG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/n36At5M.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/fOJNGEb.jpg

In the same arc, Palpatine himself confirmed the ridiculous extent of Jocasta's knowledge:
https://i.imgur.com/Tfwy2Ug.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/S5cV8FD.jpg
"Jocasta Nu knows everything Not just secrets of the light side of the Force. The dark side as well. Secrets that were not theirs to keep. Secrets even of the ancient Sith. Jocasta knows them all."

And in The Rise of Kylo Ren #2, Luke finds/collects another cache from the High Republic era that was =/> Jocasta Nu's cache:
https://i.imgur.com/V87NKi5.jpg


That, in addition to studying the ancient Jedi texts and communing with the spirits of Yoda, Kenobi, and Anakin for a number of years before cutting himself off from the Force, could have certainly made canon Luke one of the most knowledgeable(and possibly powerful) beings in the entire mythos.


tl;dr
Vader was simply never able to fully explore the depth of his potential as Palpatine's apprentice. He still became extremely powerful, but obviously nowhere near as powerful as he could have been if he had access to the same resources as Palpatine or Luke.

Fair enough. I will think more about this

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Maybe we have different definitions of decisive, but Vader wasn't presented an opportunity to kill or incapacitate ahsoka in like 2 and a half minuites of fighting. And even when vader's starts tiring her out, it comes after a minuite and a half where neither gain significant ground.

Compare that to Anakin outright incapacitating dooku in like 20 seconds, and it's basically a marathon by comparison.

If there's isn't a degree of closeness from that fight, than what exactly constitutes closeness? Only examples of closer fights i can think off would be anakin vs kenobi and yoda vs sidious


Sure she's a prodigee, but her potential isn't as high as anakin's who, per the source you cited for having his potential undamaged, still had a higher potential than anyone who was in the order(which would include ahsoka).

So if as of tcw, she's far below anakin, shouldn't she be getting stomped as of rebels? Imo, true "closeness" would be exactly what you mentioned: Anakin vs. Kenobi, or Palpatine vs. Yoda. Those were very close, grueling, and prolonged battles.

Ahsoka contended with Vader for under two minutes in round 1 of their battle, and just over a minute in round 2. Again, that's good --better than most other Jedi could have done against him-- but I wouldn't say that puts her close to his level by default. I mean, Barriss hung in there with Anakin for about 3 minutes during TCW, but I certainly wouldn't say that scales her to his level either. /shrug

That being said, it's also Filoni writing Ahsoka. The man cannot help but wank her every chance he gets, "logic" be damned. ermm

Originally posted by Galan007
Imo, true "closeness" would be exactly what you mentioned: Anakin vs. Kenobi, or Palpatine vs. Yoda. Those were very close, grueling, and prolonged battles.

Well, those fights were basically between equals(tho for anakin vs kenobi it was circumstantial). Even yoda vs sidious, at least at the time of conception had multiple sources indicating equality along with sources offering sidious a marginal edge.



Well I guess you could consider those two separate rounds.
I've seen it as one round with a slight intermission tho it'[s possible Ahsoka would have gown down earlier than otherwise without the break afforded to her via bfr. Even then, two miuites of continuous fighting is long when compared to most sw duels. IIRC, most of them last around a minuite.

Ehh, I don't know I'd say the offee vs anakin fight is comparable. Offee starts running away a few seconds after the fight starts and then they fight for 20 seconds before Offee runs off again.

There's a lot of dialogue and looking involved, but I think there's maybe a minuite of straight up fighting and it ends with anakin incapacitating her. To be fair, she is able to land some hits on anakin tho off course anakin does alot more to her.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm having a hard time finding a good frame of reference for the ahsoka vs vader duel. Luke's first fight vs vader is roughly as long but vader has luke at his mercy around 40 seconds in and was possibly toying with him.

Maybe there's a tcw fight between anakin and dooku that warrants comparison but i don't remember any of them approaching two minuites.

Kenobi vs Maul in season 5 might be comparable. Kenobi had a clear advantage but he also didn't have a decisive opportunity... :hmmm:


Yeah, ultimately, I think Ahsoka's written to scale to whoever she faces. Whether it be the 5th brother or Dark Sidious

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yeah, ultimately, I think Ahsoka's written to scale to whoever she faces. Whether it be the 5th brother or Dark Sidious

We can try to find 'logic' in it all we want, but I think this is really what it comes down to in the end.

In the same damn arc, Ahsoka starts of fighting the 5th Brother(who she didn't ragdoll -- hell, he lasted about 2 full minutes against her), then she bumps up to Maul(who she didn't ragdoll), then she bumps "light years" up the totem pole to Vader(who she preformed admirably against for longer than most could have.)

Not trying to use it as a copout, but Filoni clearly has his waifu on an absurd sliding scale, and just makes her as powerful as she needs to be in any given situation.