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I left out a bunch of his obvious/well known feats from the movies against Rey, and included only the ones that can be used to scale him.

The quote doesn't say that their skills are comparable, only that they all have formidable lightsaber skills. This doesn't mean that their skills are equally formidable tho.
To give you an example: Both Yoda and someone like Fisto have formidable skills, but Yoda is still much more powerful and skilled.

"Much like his grandfather and uncle before him..." does seem to imply some kind of parity, tbh.

The only comparisson is this: They are all skilled. Nowhere it is said they are comparable skilled.
Too give you another example:
"Much like Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos, Donalt Trump is one of the richest man in the world."
This is indeed true as all of them are billionaires, but this doesn't mean Trump is as rich as Gates or Bezos. In fact he is not even close

Except Luke and Vader are not equals themselves.

In any case, it's only talking about saber "skills". Obi-Wan and Anakin were pretty equally skilled, but they were not equals overall as saber duellists.

Yes because his best feats are dealing with Clowns of Ren, and Rey. Too little to judge yet. Even Anoon Bondara was said to be one of the strongest Jedi of the Order but we was weaker than a lot of Jedi

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Except Luke and Vader are not equals themselves. In canon, Luke's lightsaber skill was equal to Vader's as of RotJ:
"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."
-Jedi vs. Sith (2016)

Though you could argue that Luke's skills had increased significantly by the time he began training Kylo, but that's neither here nor there...

Imo, the VD is clearly using Luke and Vader as a measuring stick/comparison for Kylo's skill, hence "much like". Does that mean Kylo is *as* skilled as they were? No. But I do think the intent is that he is at least in their tier, which would still put him pretty high up the totem pole.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the reluctance to accept Kylo as a Vader-level swordsman given his depictions in the films -- but even with that, most supplementary material tends to wank the bejesus out of his power/skill. In short: I think that's just the level Disney just wants him to be at. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
In canon, Luke's lightsaber skill was equal to Vader's as of RotJ:
"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."
-Jedi vs. Sith (2016)

Though you could argue that Luke's skills had increased significantly by the time he began training Kylo, but that's neither here nor there...

Imo, the VD is clearly using Luke and Vader as a measuring stick/comparison for Kylo's skill, hence "much like". Does that mean Kylo is *as* skilled as they were? No. But I do think the intent is that he is at least in their tier, which would still put him pretty high up the totem pole.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the reluctance to accept Kylo as a Vader-level swordsman given his depictions in the films -- but even with that, most supplementary material tends to wank the bejesus out of his power/skill. In short: I think that's just the level Disney just wants him to be at. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
"Much like his grandfather and uncle before him..." does seem to imply some kind of parity, tbh.

It doesn't necessarily indicate that at all. Could it? Sure. But it could also mean exactly what it literally says which is that Kylo has formidable lightsaber skills. I see no reason to believe that Kylo is on their level based of this interpretation of this quote alone.

It's open to interpretation, sure.

But imo, that quote is describing how "formidable" Kylo's skills are, by drawing a direct comparison with Luke and Vader. That's what "much like" implies to me.

Originally posted by Galan007
In canon, Luke's lightsaber skill was equal to Vader's as of RotJ:
"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."
-Jedi vs. Sith (2016)

Though you could argue that Luke's skills had increased significantly by the time he began training Kylo, but that's neither here nor there...

Imo, the VD is clearly using Luke and Vader as a measuring stick/comparison for Kylo's skill, hence "much like". Does that mean Kylo is *as* skilled as they were? No. But I do think the intent is that he is at least in their tier, which would still put him pretty high up the totem pole.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the reluctance to accept Kylo as a Vader-level swordsman given his depictions in the films -- but even with that, most supplementary material tends to wank the bejesus out of his power/skill. In short: I think that's just the level Disney just wants him to be at. /shrug


Yeah we were not talking about ROTJ, but peak versions presumably. And if Luke reaches Vaders level as a swordsman in only 4 years, then I see no reason to believe Vader is even close to peak Luke level.

The supplementary material can hyperbole wank Kylo all it wants, but without specifics I will go by the movies which went out of their way to tell us Kylo was no Vader.


Also what is Saber skill? Maul had mad saber skills but would get his ass whooped by Vader. So without equal force augmentation it wouldnt matter.

^ I disagree but sorry I forgot this is a Respect thread and as such I wont ruin it with more argumentation. Will take it up with you in another thread.

I posted it more as a draft open to discussion

Did you read my original post about how Kylo grew more powerful between TLJ and TROS? Specifically the quote about how the Guards Rey fought are more formidable than the Praetorian Guards? They were defeated way more easily than the Praetorians too, suggesting that Rey (and therefore Kylo as well) grew substantially.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The supplementary material can hyperbole wank Kylo all it wants, but without specifics I will go by the movies which went out of their way to tell us Kylo was no Vader.

Also what is Saber skill? Maul had mad saber skills but would get his ass whooped by Vader. So without equal force augmentation it wouldnt matter. That's fair enough. As mentioned, I just think that's the level Disney wants him to be operating at, because the supplementary material thus far does go out of its way to wank Kylo. But again, I understand the reluctance. /shrug

Saber skill is pretty self-explanatory. Of course Vader would stomp Maul -- he's a better swordsman, and he's far more powerful. Don't see how that's relevant here, though..?

Originally posted by Galan007
I just think that's the level Disney wants him to be operating at, I thought that was clear in TLJ, when Luke said that Rey and Kylo's raw power was the strongest he had ever felt.

Which scales their raw power above ROTJ Sidious, Vader, Snoke and possibly even Luke himself.

Well yeah but to be fair raw power refers more to potential

I believe the "much like" is referring to the formidable part. Kylo Ren has formidable lightsaber skills, as does Luke, as does Vader.

Originally posted by Sheev
I thought that was clear in TLJ, when Luke said that Rey and Kylo's raw power was the strongest he had ever felt.

Which scales their raw power above ROTJ Sidious, Vader, Snoke and possibly even Luke himself.
If Vader didn't lost potential in canon (which many agree is the case) Kylo and Rey having more potential than him would be absurd as Anakin was the chosen one who at full potential can ragdoll the Mortis Gods. This obviously can't be the case.
The quote can't refer to actualised/aplicable power either as Rey was ragdolled by Snoke (who is at best equal to ROTJ Sidious) efortlesly.
In conclusion: Luke had no ideea what he was talking about.

Well Vader's power isn't really raw at that point.

Cool so Kylo/Ben hes pretty much in the Vader realm of power and saber skills ?

Thought I'd post some of the feats mentioned in the OP...


Kylo owns 3 of Luke's Jedi students :
https://i.imgur.com/HrprPX3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xJKJlE2.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ApYKfVV.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/f39shRO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tm1BzRI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1Hiyei8.jpg

Again:
https://i.imgur.com/FPfKOaM.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1528G2v.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tNhF1SC.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/K3ItDFr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/AmYModi.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/IPwbRuS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/4E1aPh3.jpg

Uses TK to drop massive stone structures on the students :
https://i.imgur.com/og0aVCC.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/iMbvrzb.jpg

Kills Ren(the previous leader of the KoR) :
https://i.imgur.com/c4NpCGB.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9IUiIsz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/D8hugvD.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dcDSedd.jpg

Bleeds his kyber crystal:
https://i.imgur.com/doPqA3X.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3kqtTvr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/cdTTcFY.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jZVNjTq.jpg


Supreme Leader Ren does not tolerate failure:
https://i.imgur.com/JTvZ2Cy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yGPSaLj.jpg

Was stated to be "far more powerful" than Rey as of TLJ:
https://i.imgur.com/z4g4Yrn.jpg

Kylo shields himself and Hux from a their ship's reentry and subsequent crash into a planet:
https://i.imgur.com/iDWvebF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wyJ1BGA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/IqVVugG.jpg

Kills a Zillo Beast:
https://i.imgur.com/hqbAdDX.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Qtjt3SR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ndmfs13.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/QKtxo9N.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3cdtoGW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/CSIyxOR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wAEBTi1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bsucYd0.jpg

Can use the Force to stop himself from hitting the ground after falling from a cliff:
https://i.imgur.com/g5Ggf7W.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jZQn03Z.jpg

Destroys the dark side cave on Dagobah with an omni-directional TK wave:
https://i.imgur.com/MfwwDoN.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/77vUaoR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/p8EXm4B.jpg


Uses hologram-TK to force Agent Tierny and Commander Pyre to draw their weapons and aim them at each other:
https://i.imgur.com/2zAAJWr.mp4

Nice, thanks

Originally posted by ozz81
Cool so Kylo/Ben hes pretty much in the Vader realm of power and saber skills ?
Pretty much

"Kylo is trash because he struggled against the Praetorian Guards pre-prime"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8f3-QPBxUA

Originally posted by Galan007
Thought I'd post some of the feats mentioned in the OP...





I know Rise of Kylo Ren. Which comic are the rest of those events from?

Journey to TROS Allegience, TLJ Comic Adaptation and the Age of Resistance comics for Hux, Kylo & Snoke.

Just checking in to see if anyone has found anything new to add here.

Like I said earlier:

Originally posted by ares834
It doesn't necessarily indicate that at all. Could it? Sure. But it could also mean exactly what it literally says which is that Kylo has formidable lightsaber skills. I see no reason to believe that Kylo is on their level based of this interpretation of this quote alone.

What you are advocating is nothing more than an interpretation of a quote. It's impossible to say either way.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Just checking in to see if anyone has found anything new to add here. Nothing crazy, but The Star Wars Book lists Psychometry as one of Kylo's abilities:
https://ibb.co/cwz0Q6L

Originally posted by Galan007
Imo, the VD is clearly using Luke and Vader as a measuring stick/comparison for Kylo's skill, hence "much like". Does that mean Kylo is *as* skilled as they were? No. But I do think the intent is that he is at least in their tier, which would still put him pretty high up the totem pole.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the reluctance to accept Kylo as a Vader-level swordsman given his depictions in the films -- but even with that, most supplementary material tends to wank the bejesus out of his power/skill. In short: I think that's just the level Disney just wants him to be at. /shrug
This

Gramatically it reads like Kylo's skills are formidable like Anakin and Luke who's skills are also formidable. It's likely just using Anakin and Luke as examples of formidable because they're well known and related to Kylo.

And I wouldn't say Cin Drallig has formidable skills because he gets stomped by Anakin. I'd say formidable puts him in the tier where he's not gonna have any problems against inquisitors, gungans etc.

It's literally just saying they have formidable skills as well. It doesn't need to define what formidable skills there are. It's too assuming to suggest that Kylo is on the same tier as Luke and Anakin, especially when the story group have a different opinion on who's where in terms of power scaling.

If you want to assume that this puts him on the same tier as Luke and Anakin that's for you to decide but that's not what the statement is saying. I mean I'd love for it to state that Kylo was on the tier of Luke and Anakin, but it just doesn't say that.

https://image.prntscr.com/image/V066KuMHQhqf_Z2oaATPtw.png

Kylo Ren described as having 'too much' power.

Been meaning to ask but where is this Force augment relating to saber combat coming from?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Been meaning to ask but where is this Force augment relating to saber combat coming from?


Are they not related ?

I mean when Sidious saber blitzed the 3 Council members was that mostly down to skill?

I agree, personally.

For some reason this wasn't thread wasn't telling me people were talking in it, here's a working link: https://prnt.sc/wf6dng

Also Kylo Ren (TFA) has some scaling with him being stated to be able to beat ESB Luke https://prnt.sc/wf6g6o

ESB Luke was able to defeat the GI, he had a clear edge until he's caught off guard by the GI's saber. Filoni has stated Ventress (presumbly TCW only) >~ GI, so imo

TFA Kylo Ren > ESB Luke ~ Ventress >~ GI

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Because thats simply not what it means. Never has done.

You can have all the force augmentation you want, and blitz your opponent without using a Saber. But without mastering the forms, you dont have Saber skill.

2 very different things. Same in any sport really.


Edited for spelling errors.

What page is this "much like" quote from TLJ visual dictonary on? Can't find it.

Personally, I do believe that as of TROS, Kylo Ren is meant to be up there with the very best. But the quote, as it's quoted here, seems to be talking about Kylo as of the time he left Luke's new jedi order, so if we take it to mean parity with Luke and Vader, then that would suggest that Ren, as of the time he took out Luke's students, was already on par with Luke/Vader. In order to believe that, you'd also have to believe that TROS Kylo would stomp Vader/Luke, considering that, based on his and Rey's performance against Palpatine's guards and the KOR (both of which are probably superior groups to Snoke's guards), he is at a level where he would stomp even his TLJ self, who is years more advanced than the Ren who took out Luke's students.

^And does that sit well with anybody?

Here's a question:

Lets say you are a professional boxer, and you have an 8 year old son, who much like you, possesses great skill in the sport...would that mean he is on par with you at 8 years old?

Originally posted by Dominis
Here's a question:

Lets say you are a professional boxer, and you have an 8 year old son, who much like you, possesses great skill in the sport...would that mean he is on par with you at 8 years old?


Yeah I was about to bring up heavy weights being separated from feather weights.

Originally posted by Dominis
What page is this "much like" quote from TLJ visual dictonary on? Can't find it.
Here's the full page:
https://ibb.co/syrBWwn
-Ultimate Star Wars (New Edition)

Originally posted by Dominis
Personally, I do believe that as of TROS, Kylo Ren is meant to be up there with the very best. But the quote, as it's quoted here, seems to be talking about Kylo as of the time he left Luke's new jedi order, so if we take it to mean parity with Luke and Vader, then that would suggest that Ren, as of the time he took out Luke's students, was already on par with Luke/Vader. In order to believe that, you'd also have to believe that TROS Kylo would stomp Vader/Luke, considering that, based on his and Rey's performance against Palpatine's guards and the KOR (both of which are probably superior groups to Snoke's guards), he is at a level where he would stomp even his TLJ self, who is years more advanced than the Ren who took out Luke's students.

^And does that sit well with anybody? The entry as a whole is in reference to "Supreme Leader"(ie. TLJ/RoS) Kylo. So it's logical to assume the quote is speaking to Kylo's skills as of that era.

Originally posted by Dominis
Here's a question:

Lets say you are a professional boxer, and you have an 8 year old son, who much like you, possesses great skill in the sport...would that mean he is on par with you at 8 years old? But the quote doesn't state that Kylo possesses high-level skill "for his age" or w/e. It just makes a blanket generalization that as of TLJ/RoS, Kylo possessed "formidable lightsaber skills" that were "much like" that of Luke and Vader.

Do I think that statement alone incontrovertibly puts Kylo on par with Luke or Vader as a swordsman? No. But I certainly think the intent was for Kylo's skills to at least be in that general tier... Otherwise there would be no contextual point for Luke/Vader to be mentioned at all there. /shrug

Probably because almost no one takes the head-to-head results seriously. This has been the case for nearly a decade now.

Plus we all kind of assumed already that Peak Kylo >>> any Inquisitor.

Fair enough

Originally posted by Galan007
Here's the full page:
https://ibb.co/syrBWwn
-Ultimate Star Wars (New Edition)


Oh ok. That's why I couldn't find it, the OP said TLJ visual dictionary.

Originally posted by Galan007
The entry as a whole is in reference to "Supreme Leader"(ie. TLJ/RoS) Kylo. So it's logical to assume the quote is referencing Kylo's skills as of that era.

Yes but if the "much like" part is meant to be read as Ren being on par with Luke and Vader, then wouldn't the following sentence seem to suggest that he had possessed that same level of skill as of the time he faced Luke's students, since that is the following example used to give the reader an idea of Ren's skill?

That's why I don't think the "much like" part is meant to be read as an exact indicator of how skilled Kylo is compared to them, but rather that being related to them, he naturally possesses great skill in combat much like they did. Not necessarily the same level of skill.

For some reason I thought it was the TLJ VD. My bad.

Anyways, based on that scaling off of ESB Luke and the GI, it’s not unreasonable to assume that he’s near Luke/Vader level.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
For some reason I thought it was the TLJ VD. My bad.

Anyways, based on that scaling off of ESB Luke and the GI, it’s not unreasonable to assume that he’s near Luke/Vader level.


As of ROS, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that.

But that part of Kylo's passage was detailing a certain point in his past, specifically when he murdered Luke's students.

Originally posted by Dominis
Yes but if the "much like" part is meant to be read as Ren being on par with Luke and Vader, then wouldn't the following sentence seem to suggest that he had possessed that same level of skill as of the time he faced Luke's students, since that is the following example used to give the reader an idea of Ren's skill?

That's why I don't think the "much like" part is meant to be read as an exact indicator of how skilled Kylo is compared to them, but rather that being related to them, he naturally possesses great skill in combat much like they did. Not necessarily the same level of skill. Considering the page is centered around "Supreme Leader" Kylo Ren, the implication to me is that it is drawing a comparison between the lightsaber skills Kylo possessed at the time of TLJ/RoS(which is when he officially became the Supreme Leader), and the lightsaber skills of Luke/Vader. The excerpt then goes on to reference one of the sparse few instances where Kylo alone had actually put his "talent in combat" to use: and that was against Luke's Jedi students, which is true. But with the full context of the page considered, I do not think it was alluding to Kylo's swordsmanship already being on that level when he betrayed Luke and killed the students some 6-7 years prior to TLJ/RoS... Unless you are under the impression that his skills didn't improve at all during that time(which wouldn't really surprise me, tbh, given that Kylo's new Master was a borderline cripple who likely couldn't have done a whole lot to help refine his saber skills, and there weren't exactly an abundance of credible threats/Jedi running around for Kylo to test himself against either... But that's neither here nor there.) /shrug

Either way, I agree that the quote is not an exact indicator of skill -- it's just a general measuring stick. But as I mentioned above: there would be no contextual reason for Kylo's lightsaber skills to be likened to those of Luke and Vader at all, if the intent wasn't for him to at least be in their ballpark, imo. Otherwise the writers would have just thrown in a generic "Kylo's lightsaber skills are unequaled" line, like they did with the KoR in the very same sourcebook:
https://ibb.co/dtF4bH7

Meh. Too many assumptions and presumptions for my taste.

Ill personally be sticking with the movies themselves which go out of their way to tell us Kylo is no Vader.

I mean Kylo could've improved his lightsaber skills by training alone, that's how Dooku got as good as he was because Yoda refused to teach him saber combat and obviously he good great results. Having a cripple master shouldn't halt your saber prowess if you are a talented duelist.

Originally posted by Bentley
I mean Kylo could've improved his lightsaber skills by training alone, Not disagreeing.

Like I said above: the passage is most likely in reference to Kylo's saber skills as of TLJ/RoS, when he became the "Supreme Leader"(because that's what the page itself is in reference to)... And I would certainly think his skills in that era were superior to his skills when he killed the students years prior.

Just saying that I wouldn't exactly be surprised if it was revealed that his saber skills didn't increase much under Snoke's tutelage.

Originally posted by Galan007
Considering the page is centered around "Supreme Leader" Kylo Ren, the implication to me is that it is drawing a comparison between the lightsaber skills Kylo possessed at the time of TLJ/RoS(which is when he officially became the Supreme Leader), and the lightsaber skills of Luke/Vader. The excerpt then goes on to reference one of the sparse few instances where Kylo alone had actually put his "talent in combat" to use: and that was against Luke's Jedi students, which is true. But with the full context of the page considered, I do not think it was alluding to Kylo's swordsmanship already being on that level when he betrayed Luke and killed the students some 6-7 years prior to TLJ/RoS... Unless you are under the impression that his skills didn't improve at all during that time


I do think his saber skill likely did improve since then. That's kinda why I feel that the quote is merely suggesting that being a proficient saber duelist runs in his family instead of suggesting that he's on par with them as of a specific time in his life.

Also, looking at the page again, that part is like a side note or whatever with the heading "Jedi Killer," which discusses the event of Ren murdering his fellow students. IMO, I don't think it would randomly mention how skilled Kylo Ren became as of TLJ/TROS when it would have nothing to do with the event or the time period in which it's focusing on.

But that's just how I'm taking it.

It's one of those ambiguous lines that will always be debated, unless we get a more definitive statement regarding his skill.

That said, the page header specifies "Supreme Leader", and the picture(s) of Kylo himself featured on that page are taken from the TLJ period.

So given this context, it wouldn't make sense for the passage to be referring to Kylo's skills before the time of at least TLJ, imo.

Originally posted by Galan007

So given this context, it wouldn't make sense for the passage to be referring to Kylo's skills before the time of at least TLJ, imo.


It would because its specifically talking about how that same skill was used to kill those Jedi under a sub-heading of Jedi Killer.

Theres no contradiction there to it being on a page about Kylo Ren as Supreme Leader, because its not like that skill has deteriorated over time. Its still there, if not better than before.

Right.

I'm just saying that the "much like" quote specifically seems to be in reference to Kylo's saber skills as of TLJ/RoS. I am not trying to claim that Kylo's swordsmanship was already in the ballpark of Luke/Vader back when he killed the Jedi students, and I personally do not think the statement is indicative of that.

...Unless, as I said earlier, we assume that Kylo's saber skills only increased negligibly in the 6-7 years between his initial turn to the dark side, and the events of TLJ/RoS. /shrug


tl;dr
Based on the quote, my personal opinion is that Kylo's "peak/prime" saber skills(which I assume to be the TLJ/RoS era) were intended to be somewhere in the ballpark of Luke and Vader. I do not believe that quote necessarily puts his skills on par with(much less superior to) Luke/Vader, however.

Last paragraph is still too long, didn't read

haw-som

I don’t see why Kylo’s saber skills wouldn’t be near Luke/Vader tier by the time he destroyed Luke’s Jedi temple. He was older than ROTS Anakin was by that point of time and had already received all of his training from Luke. The only other training he received was from Snoke who didn’t even use a saber. Even if he did improve, he could still be in the same general tier. For example I’d say TPM Maul and SOD Maul are in the same tier but he improved during the clone wars.

Originally posted by Dominis
Here's a question:

Lets say you are a professional boxer, and you have an 8 year old son, who much like you, possesses great skill in the sport...would that mean he is on par with you at 8 years old?
That's a weird comparison though. You wouldn't say an 8 year old amateur boxer possesses great skills much like his legendary professional uncle and grandfather. That wouldn't make sense because they're not even close.

I agree with Prime and Galan on this one. Comparing Kylo to his uncle and grandfather like that there's definitely an indication of parity--or at least some level of parity. It wouldn't make sense if Kylo isn't even close to their level.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
I don’t see why Kylo’s saber skills wouldn’t be near Luke/Vader tier by the time he destroyed Luke’s Jedi temple. He was older than ROTS Anakin was by that point of time and had already received all of his training from Luke. The only other training he received was from Snoke who didn’t even use a saber. Even if he did improve, he could still be in the same general tier. For example I’d say TPM Maul and SOD Maul are in the same tier but he improved during the clone wars.


Kylo was conflicted as hell though. So cant just make assumptions like that.

He obviously had raw power though due to his bloodline.

I honestly dont think Maul did improve much since TPM. But his story was very different so not really applicable here.

Originally posted by Rebel95
That's a weird comparison though. You wouldn't say an 8 year old amateur boxer possesses great skills much like his legendary professional uncle and grandfather. That wouldn't make sense because they're not even close.




Heavy weights do not fight light weights in competition. And that has nothing to do with one weight being more skilled than the other. Theres simply an unfair weight/strength advantage there.

In combat The definition of skill is not who wins a fight.

But If the writers of these source books mean how they would actually compare in a sword fight, then they need to learn to express themselves better. But as it stands theres nothing there to use in a debate.

Come on people, it literally compares Kylo to Luke and Vader by saying they all possess formidable lightsaber skills. That should give you an idea of how formidable his lightsaber skills are.

Nah thats not what skill means.

Tyson was not known for being the most skilled fighter when he was champion.

Its impressive nonetheless given we know how incredibly skilled Vader was as a swordsman (at least as Anakin), but it really doesnt mean much in regards to if he could seriously compete with Vader or Luke in a sword fight.

Im sticking with the more concrete quotes from the films that Kylo was no Vader, rather than accepting an ambiguous quote that Kylo was already a Vader level swordsman years before the films. Especially when it doesnt even say that.

It really isnt hard to say Kylo was Lukes equal as a swordsman. I mean I just said it.

Dueling is not the same as boxing, there are no weight classes. And no one said Kylo was a Vader level swordsman.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Ill personally be sticking with the movies themselves which go out of their way to tell us Kylo is no Vader. You're entitled to your opinions, but I'm not sure why Snoke taunting and demeaning Kylo after his failure at Starkiller Base is anymore of a definitive measuring stick than the quote at hand?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That doesnt suddenly make him Vader level from one movie to the next though. Tbf, Luke was demonstrably inferior to Vader across the board during ESB. Fast-forward just 1 year to RotJ, and Luke's power/skill were stated to be equal to Vader's.

So it is possible for some characters(especially those linked to the Skywalker or Palpatine bloodlines) to achieve significant growth in a short period of time.

Mike Tyson's skill as a boxer was overshadowed by the ferocious knockouts and intimidating aura, but Mike was actually very technical.

His head movement and footwork combined with his ability to punch from different angles was all elite.

Originally posted by Galan007
Right.

I'm just saying that the "much like" quote specifically seems to be in reference to Kylo's saber skills as of TLJ/RoS. I am not trying to claim that Kylo's swordsmanship was already in the ballpark of Luke/Vader back when he killed the Jedi students, and I personally do not think the statement is indicative of that.

...Unless, as I said earlier, we assume that Kylo's saber skills only increased negligibly in the 6-7 years between his initial turn to the dark side, and the events of TLJ/RoS. /shrug


tl;dr
Based on the quote, my personal opinion is that Kylo's "peak/prime" saber skills(which I assume to be the TLJ/RoS era) were intended to be somewhere in the ballpark of Luke and Vader. I do not believe that quote necessarily puts his skills on par with(much less superior to) Luke/Vader, however.


Yeah I see what you're saying Galan. It just seems odd to me that "much like" would be used in a way that only applies to Kylo Ren as of TLJ but not also as of the time he killed Luke's students given that it's quoted under a heading that is briefly discussing the time when he killed his fellow students. That's why I feel that the other interpretation fits better.


Originally posted by Rebel95
That's a weird comparison though. You wouldn't say an 8 year old amateur boxer possesses great skills much like his legendary professional uncle and grandfather. That wouldn't make sense because they're not even close.

I agree with Prime and Galan on this one. Comparing Kylo to his uncle and grandfather like that there's definitely an indication of parity--or at least some level of parity. It wouldn't make sense if Kylo isn't even close to their level.


Not if "much like" in this case is used to mean that Kylo Ren followed in his uncle and grandfather's footsteps by having formidable saber skills at all, not necessarily that those skills rival their own.

^Exactly. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're entitled to your opinions, but I'm not sure why Snoke taunting and demeaning Kylo after his failure at Starkiller Base is anymore of a definitive measuring stick than the quote at hand?

Tbf, Luke was demonstrably inferior to Vader across the board during ESB. Fast-forward just 1 year to RotJ, and Luke's power/skill were stated to be equal to Vader's.

So it is possible for some characters(especially those linked to the Skywalker or Palpatine bloodlines) to achieve significant growth in a short period of time.


Because was repeated by 2 different characters. Hence why I think the movies hit us over the head with that.

Sure, but there needs to be a reason to believe that there was some exceptional increase in his last year of 10-15 years of training.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Im getting the impression Prime is saying that. Perhaps Galan as well.

Yeah just having that skill level in itself (without being their equal) is impressive. I agree there.
Not necessarily. I’ve said multiple times that that wasn’t my point. He could be, but I just think that he must be somewhere near their level in terms of lightsaber skill. Otherwise the comparison wouldn’t have been made.

For example, a lot of people think Kylo is only an average Jedi knight level duelist, or worse. I think this quote rules that possibility out.

Kylo seemed clumsy as **** when fighting. People like Ventress or even Kit Fisto definitely look more skilled

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Not necessarily. I’ve said multiple times that that wasn’t my point. He could be, but I just think that he must be somewhere near their level in terms of lightsaber skill. Otherwise the comparison wouldn’t have been made.

For example, a lot of people think Kylo is only an average Jedi knight level duelist, or worse. I think this quote rules that possibility out.


Oh I agree there. He is a trained Skywalker after all.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Oh I agree there. He is a trained Skywalker after all.
Glad we can agree on that

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
^Exactly. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand.

Because the quote says that much like his uncle and grandfather he has formidable saber skills, not that his formidable saber skills are much like his uncle and grandfather's.

I mean, you can take it to mean the latter I guess, but to say that is the only way it can be interpreted is just wrong.

If what Galan is saying is correct, and "much like" is making a comparison, but that the comparison only applies to Kylo Ren as of TLJ, then it feels kinda odd IMO given that it's quoted under a heading that briefly discusses the time Kylo Ren murders Luke's students, which happens several years before TLJ.

However, if that part of the quote applies to Ren as far back as when he killed Luke's students, then that would suggest that Kylo Ren as of TLJ is considerably above Luke and Vader in terms of saber ability (unless you do not believe Ren made any progress at all between then and TLJ ) and as of TROS he's beyond even that.

^I don't buy that, and I don't think that is what the quote was trying to suggest ether, which is why I think the best interpretation is that "much like" was simply used as a way of saying Kylo followed in his uncle's and grandfather's footsteps by having formidable saber skills at all.

I never said it was the latter. But by saying that Luke and Vader also possess formidable lightsaber skills, that gives us an idea of what they mean. Otherwise its unquantifiable

.

Yeah. I mentioned this before, but in this instance there would have been no contextual reason to mention Kylo's saber skills in the same breath as those of Luke and Vader, if the intent wasn't to draw *some* sort of comparison between them.

And again: even if Kylo was in the same general tier as Luke/Vader as a swordsman, that doesn't mean he was equal to them.

Just found a quote from Matt Marting saying that ROS Rey>ROTJ Luke in sabers.

Sounds stupid.

But you mind giving an exact quote?

I wouldn't be surprised if a writter declared ROS Rey had a thicker c*ck than Luke

He also said ROTJ Luke is nowhere near Vader or Anakin
His tweets are not an official source anyway.

Originally posted by Darthadi
He also said ROTJ Luke is nowhere near Vader or Anakin



Well then it has no relation to how good Kylo is anyway.

Just means he thinks Luke had not trained long enough yet.

Rey of course needs no training.... Because... that would be sexist.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well then it has no relation to how good Kylo is anyway.

Just means he thinks Luke had not trained long enough yet.

Rey of course needs no training.... Because... that would be sexist.
What are you talking about?

Who decides these things anyway?

The Story Group? Pablo Hidalgo? Dave Filoni?

Was ironically much simpler when Lucas had the final say.

^ I like that. Its for the fans to debate. And I like all the comics and novels being proper canon now under Disney. Unlike under Lucas.

But I dont like the random quotes they crap out which dont mean anything. Like Vader being the strongest Sith. If they just confirm source books are a supplementary or secondary source, that would make stuff more clear.

The only consistently reliable source book to me seems to be the databank on the official site.

^ The SW Book also states that Mace was "second only to Yoda" as a swordsman. So it definitively makes the pecking order clear in multiple entries(ie. Yoda>Mace.) So I personally hold that in higher esteem than the individual blurb from the Lightsaber Guide. /shrug

As for strongest Sith line: that was always questionable from the onset, given that in the original films, Vader was actively trying to recruit Luke for the sole purpose of trying to overthrow Palpatine(which he wouldn't need to do if he was already more powerful)... But yes, the recent comics make it blatantly clear that Palpatine >> Vader as of the ESB era.

" was the heir to the potential of the Skywalker line...":
https://ibb.co/dDqrB0D
-Insider #194

Does this imply that Kylo's potential = Anakin's? mmm

Not really imo. Just huge potential in general.
And insiders might not have canon value acording to Matt Martin. He said the insiders are editorial like the blogs and news section on Starwars.com

It's just your usual hype that any characters gets, nothing impressive

Fair enough.

The same source also states that Rey was an "unprecedented Force prodigy." So do you guys also think that blurb is just the same sort of generalized wank/hype?

Originally posted by Galan007
Fair enough.

The same source also states that Rey was an "unprecedented Force prodigy." So do you guys also think that blurb is just the same sort of generalized wank/hype? All's I know is in RoS he had Rey good and beat before Carrie Fischer had to make a dramatic overdose/suicide

That masochistic move was hostile and pointless as Jesus and whatever the **** plot device has kylo dying to save Rey in order to get kissed by the supercunt.

The Jedi were all masochists!

It should have been Hayden and Portman on a throne! With no backstory, humping like pidgeons

Aka me and Knightley

Originally posted by Galan007
Fair enough.

The same source also states that Rey was an "unprecedented Force prodigy." So do you guys also think that blurb is just the same sort of generalized wank/hype?


Thats clearly true about Rey. But its also why everyone hates her.

Originally posted by Galan007
Fair enough.

The same source also states that Rey was an "unprecedented Force prodigy." So do you guys also think that blurb is just the same sort of generalized wank/hype? Sure thing. Anakin had much more potential lol I'd argue even Luke had more

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Thats clearly true about Rey. But its also why everyone hates her. Chosen one says hi

Originally posted by Total Warrior
Chosen one says hi


Well even the Chosen One needed training.