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Should men looking to be women and vice versa be encouraged or even allowed to cut their body parts off which causes irreparable damage to their bodies and mental stability solely on their feelings etc?

This is something only you can answer.


Don't let anyone tell you different Eon, we support whatever decision you choose to make.

No, I dont think people should be encouraged to, or allowed. It causes permanet damage that your body was not made for, and the adding of hormones isnt the same as being born with different DNA.

Plus, the suicide rate post Op, is extremely high.

People shouldnt be encouranged to switch sexes which is actually impossible, your chromosomes never change.

soon they'll be able to grow male and female reproductive organs in labs, and the whole "but mutilation" argument will go right out the window.

I met a few who ended up committing suicide after the transition. I honestly say it's your money so it's up to you. Eon if you're a transvestite you shouldn't have to be pushed to do anything.

I'm not anti-trans or transphobic and I never will be. I want every person on Earth to have dignity, happiness, health, wealth, love, and respect.

If they want to have a sexual reassignment, then more power to them.

Still, I refuse to close my eyes to basic biology.

Caitlyn Jenner is a 70 year old man with breast implants.

A man who has a full scale Male to Female sexual surgery is a man with an inside out penis and feminine altering surgery.

Well said

I believe he said he regrets it to

I certainly don't think the vast majority of doctors are the best people to be providing guidance on it and pushing one way or the other. Not sure there are all that many pre and post op clinicians though. Either physical or mental, who would be better suited to doing so. Seems to be a significant gap there in the necessary expertise to allow people to fully realise the decision they'd be making and what it's psychological impacts could mean.

I fully support H1A8's transition into becoming a nonbinary cephalopod

Originally posted by Eon Blue
Should men looking to be women and vice versa be encouraged or even allowed to cut their body parts off which causes irreparable damage to their bodies and mental stability solely on their feelings etc?

That seems like very one sided framing. To answer the main question "should they be encouraged?", I think everyone should be encouraged to find their self fulfillment. From my point of view trans people face a lot of adversity that is a very strong disincentive to following their desires on the matter, that social adversity needs to be eliminated, so that everyone can choose to live with the gender and with the body (to the best of sciences ability) that they desire. I understand there is a worry that perhaps people get pressured into doing things that they might not want to, and we should be mindful of that, from my POV our society is not really there, barring a few cherry picked cases. Ultimately from a moral standpoint the harm done to those that transition due to pressure that did not want to needs to be weighed up with the harm done to those that do not transition do to pressure but wanted to. I know which one I view as the bigger risk in current society.

Aren't you trans yourself?????

There is a difference that a cross dresser and being trans you buffoon

Is that why you tucked it in last night???

Sure. Anyone can do anything to their body, on their dime. I wouldn't encourage it, though. People often change their minds, after the fact.

I'd go further, I do think there's a very good case to be made to cover some gender reassignment surgeries in healthcare systems.

Fringe circumstances, sure.

Have examples though? Genuinely asking.

Originally posted by meep-meep
Fringe circumstances, sure.

Have examples though? Genuinely asking.
I wouldn't say fringe even. I think GRS can save society immense amounts of money by integrating a previously suffering person into the economic system and alleviating mental health issue that may otherwise require an expensive long-term psychological intervention. And that's not even to talk about any moral considerations one might have.

Of course there need to be some measures to ensure that the person is sure about it and does need it, though I am always worried of implementing powerful gatekeepers or create inefficient means tested systems.

Perhaps you may liken it to the argument to have gastric bypass surgery being covered by insurances of all kinds. The idea is that you will have much higher costs long term as you support the severely obese person into their old age of ill health, and on the other hand, a successful intervention will pave the return of the person into the value creating work force. I understand that point of view is somewhat alien to American tastes, but it's pretty common in European social democracies.

I don't mean to come off as uncaring, or naive. What does gastric bypass surgery have to do with changing ones genitals? I'm in full support of having a universal Medicare system for emergency situations. I don't think gender reassignment falls in that category.

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
Plus, the suicide rate post Op, is extremely high.

People shouldnt be encouranged to switch sexes which is actually impossible, your chromosomes never change.
They're transitioning in a society that will stigmatize them though, even to the point of physical violence. That probably contributes to the suicide rate.....

I don't know if Eon wanted us to go on this tangent in this thread, but, the argument is that gender is different from sex. The goal isn't to literally change chromosomes.


...although, it's conceivable that will be possible in the future.

Originally posted by meep-meep
I don't mean to come off as uncaring, or naive. What does gastric bypass surgery have to do with changing ones genitals? I'm in full support of having a universal Medicare system for emergency situations. I don't think gender reassignment falls in that category.

Yeah, understandable, that's a commonly held belief. I think there's two main ways that some people differ with your view a) many people believe that universal medicare should go far beyond emergency situations, including all sorts of preventative and even lifestyle medical interventions and b) trans rights advocates in particular would argue that it does fall into emergency situation anyways, for that you have to accept the view that in particular gender dysphoria is a valid medical problem, that can lead to immense emotional pain, crippling depression and suicide. I understand if that's not convincing to you, but it is certainly a view that exists among medical professionals as well.

As for the gastric bypass surgery, that was just an example of where the reasoning is similar.

I've encountered a handful of individuals who were pretty clearly taking hormones to fit their gender. I'll admit, I have always been taken aback for a half of a second. Barely enough time for almost anyone to recognize. It's totally reactionary, and not meant in malice. Never had problems. Goog people are good people.

Originally posted by Artol
Yeah, understandable, that's a commonly held belief. I think there's two main ways that some people differ with your view a) many people believe that universal medicare should go far beyond emergency situations, including all sorts of preventative and even lifestyle medical interventions and b) trans rights advocates in particular would argue that it does fall into emergency situation anyways, for that you have to accept the view that in particular gender dysphoria is a valid medical problem, that can lead to immense emotional pain, crippling depression and suicide. I understand if that's not convincing to you, but it is certainly a view that exists among medical professionals as well.

As for the gastric bypass surgery, that was just an example of where the reasoning is similar.

Gotcha. I understand your reasoning now. I do disagree that crippling depression due to whatever circumstances should be covered by tax funded programs. I realize that sounds callous. Mom's, dad's, brothers and sisters should recognize when one of their own needs emotional support. If a girl wants to be a boy or the other way around, a good family will recognize that and raise them right to reach that goal.

Crappy families that can't take care of their own shouldn't have to burden their neighbors with non emergency surgeries.

Hmm, yeah I see your point of view, a strong familial bond, or a social network generally, goes a long way.

I guess to me there's a lot of things that it can't cover and that I think is better if they are covered not just because of like emotional "I want this poor people not to suffer" reasons (although those are important to me), but solely from a mere cost-benefit analysis for society as well.

If they can point to some kind of legit medical test that proves they were born in the wrong bodies, sure. otherwise it sounds like a psychological problem, where we should be encouraging therapy.

Artol
Right there with you. Nobody should have to suffer. Everyone needs help. A strong social network, outside of family is just as good. Sometimes it's better.

Originally posted by Silent Master
If they can point to some kind of legit medical test that proves they were born in the wrong bodies, sure. otherwise it sounds like a psychological problem, where we should be encouraging therapy.

True.

Good posts, guys. Looks like despite personal views and opinions there happens to be some compassionate common ground.

Originally posted by Eon Blue
Should men looking to be women and vice versa be encouraged or even allowed to cut their body parts off which causes irreparable damage to their bodies and mental stability solely on their feelings etc?

Why do you hate freedom?

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Why do you hate freedom?

Why do you hate free speech, which is a form of freedom?

Originally posted by Eon Blue
Why do you hate free speech, which is a form of freedom?

How is your speech being limited?

How is voicing a statement an impediment or an imagined sleight to freedom?

Originally posted by Eon Blue
How is voicing a statement an impediment or an imagined sleight to freedom?

Originally posted by Eon Blue
Should men looking to be women and vice versa be encouraged or even allowed to cut their body parts off which causes irreparable damage to their bodies and mental stability solely on their feelings etc?

The entire premise of your post is about limiting the rights of individuals to do what they wish with their own bodies.

You got called out on it, and then cried that your freedom of speech was being abridged, even though no one, least of all the government, tried to censor you.

What you were complaining about is that someone else exercised their freedom of speech in response, and you did not like it.

Grow up, kid.

No one stated it was not, you little crybaby. What is at issue is you crying that your freedom of speech was being abridged, because someone else exercised their freedom of speech in response.





allow verb To permit: To allow one to alter his body.

By all means, provide a more charitible definition of the term that does not follow "subject permits object."

But do not try too hard, because you already gave your position away on who should be allowed to do what:

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
No one stated it was not, you little crybaby. What is at issue is you crying that your freedom of speech was being abridged, because someone else exercised their freedom of speech in response.





allow verb To permit: To allow one to alter his body.

By all means, provide a more charitible definition of the term that does not follow "subject permits object."

But do not try too hard, because you already gave your position away on who should be allowed to do what:

You clearly lack reading comprehension and are inanely vitriolic in your end goal here, which happens to be unclear. You love to make matters more than what they are at their core principle.

Keep on quoting mindlessly without clear purpose, idiot.

Originally posted by Eon Blue
You clearly lack reading comprehension and are inanely vitriolic in your end goal here, which happens to be unclear. You love to make matters more than what they are at their core principle.

Keep on quoting mindlessly without clear purpose, idiot.

I am not seeing a rebuttal.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I am not seeing a rebuttal.

I am not seeing an argument worth a rebuttal.

Originally posted by Eon Blue
I am not seeing an argument worth a rebuttal.

You must have missed it. Here you go:

Originally posted by Adam_PoE

allow verb To permit: To allow one to alter his body.

By all means, provide a more charitible definition of the term that does not follow "subject permits object."

But do not try too hard, because you already gave your position away on who should be allowed to do what:

Originally posted by Eon Blue
Should men looking to be women and vice versa be encouraged or even allowed to cut their body parts off which causes irreparable damage to their bodies and mental stability solely on their feelings etc?

As long as they are an adult, yes. It's their body. Let them do as they want.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
You must have missed it. Here you go:



Keep on with your selective reading and idiotic reasoning. You just be a hit with idiotic leftists.

Originally posted by Eon Blue
Keep on with your selective reading and idiotic reasoning. You just be a hit with idiotic leftists.

Remeber this post:

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
No, it is telling that you are so desperate for acceptance, that you will befriend people who do not respect your identity.

I do not care for eThneoLgrRnae, but I defended him when your so-called "friends" were ridiculing his attraction to trans women.

And I do not particularly care for you either, but I defended your gender to those same "friends," who do not see it as legitimate.

You may think they respect you, but no one who truly respects you holds the positions they do about people like you.

They will take adulation where they can get, and laugh at you behind your back.

The only thing you are good for to them is to be a bro-shield for their bigotry.

So when they get called out for heterosexism, homophobia, transphobia, et al. they can trout you out and say the LGBTQ equivalent of "I'm not racist, one of my best friends is black."

You are trading your dignity for acceptance and it is a tragedy.

I was right:

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
No, I dont think people should be encouraged to, or allowed. It causes permanet damage that your body was not made for, and the adding of hormones isnt the same as being born with different DNA.

Plus, the suicide rate post Op, is extremely high.

People shouldnt be encouranged to switch sexes which is actually impossible, your chromosomes never change.

But keep cucking for rightists who do not respect you and never will.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Remeber this post:



I was right:



But keep cucking for rightists who do not respect you and never will.

How did your post prove anything?

Originally posted by ares834
As long as they are an adult, yes. It's their body. Let them do as they want.

Originally posted by Eon Blue
How did your post prove anything?

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The entire premise of your post is about limiting the rights of individuals to do what they wish with their own bodies.

People can be as free as they want with their bodies Adam. No one is disputing that.

Except for Broly

Originally posted by Eon Blue
Should men looking to be women and vice versa be encouraged or even allowed to cut their body parts off which causes irreparable damage to their bodies and mental stability solely on their feelings etc?

Everyone is free to make their own choice. They are allowed to do anything to their body if they choose so and not being pressured by other people. I'd be very discreet in encouraging others or say nothing at all or say it's their choice because this sex change commitment is a big step and will dramatically change their lives. Like getting married, having children, etc.

I can see this thread turning pretty nasty

Originally posted by jaden_2.0
I certainly don't think the vast majority of doctors are the best people to be providing guidance on it and pushing one way or the other. Not sure there are all that many pre and post op clinicians though. Either physical or mental, who would be better suited to doing so. Seems to be a significant gap there in the necessary expertise to allow people to fully realise the decision they'd be making and what it's psychological impacts could mean.



Well, it is a business after all.


Health of the patient is code word for covering your butt from lawsuits. No one is suing for regretting a transition, and so the industry that popped up to facilitate transitions have no real reason to care what happens after they make their profits.

If we could all cease the name calling and dick waving, that'd be great.

M'kay?

Originally posted by Eon Blue
Should men looking to be women and vice versa be encouraged or even allowed to cut their body parts off which causes irreparable damage to their bodies and mental stability solely on their feelings etc?

Sure, only if they are an adult and under the consultation with a non-quack mental health professional.



Originally posted by Bashar Teg
soon they'll be able to grow male and female reproductive organs in labs, and the whole "but mutilation" argument will go right out the window.

And body-modification will be as simple as going to a booth, getting the changes, and you're done in less than an hour. Like "choose your own character" and character customization in a game.

Also, the genes, androgen receptors, and things like that might be able to be adjusted with gene therapy. You'd inject a cocktail of drugs and gene modifiers that allows you to change down to a fundamental level. You'd still have to get plastic surgery to remove masculine traits but if you're F2M, you'd not have to do anything about it as you'd "grow" into your masculinity.

Originally posted by Impediment
If we could all cease the name calling and dick waving, that'd be great.

M'kay?

https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/lumbergh.jpg

Originally posted by dadudemon

And body-modification will be as simple as going to a booth, getting the changes, and you're done in less than an hour. Like "choose your own character" and character customization in a game.


someday, probably. trans woman gets a vagina, regrets their decision, returns to get their penis re-implanted.

literally all the arguments i hear of why it's so dangerous has an unspecified expiration date

Originally posted by Eon Blue
I am not seeing an argument worth a rebuttal.

*surgeries

what's wrong Special Ed? did i knock over some furniture in your mind and give you another concussion?

Someday it will be as easy as injecting insulin.


As easy as injecting insulin you can't afford to buy, and unaffordable insurances won't cover.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
someday, probably. trans woman gets a vagina, regrets their decision, returns to get their penis re-implanted.

literally all the arguments i hear of why it's so dangerous has an unspecified expiration date

I'm looking forward to it. I am a very big fan of the Deus-Ex universe (the newer games) which show body-mods being taken to the next level in the near future.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
what's wrong Special Ed? did i knock over some furniture in your mind and give you another concussion?

Did you see your mental health professional recently and take your meds today

When’s the last time you went to a anger management class?

Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm looking forward to it. I am a very big fan of the Deus-Ex universe (the newer games) which show body-mods being taken to the next level in the near future.

body parts/organ cloning already seem to be an inevitable reality. perhaps one of us will be the first to try out a freshly cloned heart or kidney in our elderly years. i don't believe this is far-off star trek medical tech we're talking about.

If we were to stop allowing trans people to get sex changes would we also stop people from getting breast implants, penis enlargements, nose jobs, face lifts, liposuction etc... Which all have a long history of having patients that suffer from body dysmorphic disorder and other mental illnesses and have a much higher rate of suicide than people that dont get "unnecessary" cosmetic surgeries?

I'm totally fine with a delusional person who thinks that he or she is the "wrong sex" having a supposed "sex change." What I'm definitely not ok with though is the taxpayers being forced to pay for it.

Originally posted by Raptor22
If we were to stop allowing trans people to get sex changes would we also stop people from getting breast implants, penis enlargements, nose jobs, face lifts, liposuction etc... Which all have a long history of having patients that suffer from body dysmorphic disorder and other mental illnesses and have a much higher rate of suicide than people that dont get "unnecessary" cosmetic surgeries?



I legit need a nose job to fix my nasal passages/breathing. My left nostril has much lower "air flow." It's because of a partially torn septum back when I was 15. Healed too far to the left at the top where it connects to the bone. I don't do it because I feel like I should just deal with it and not be a baby but my vanity makes me want to have a perfectly symmetric nose.

Originally posted by dadudemon


I legit need a nose job to fix my nasal passages/breathing. My left nostril has much lower "air flow." It's because of a partially torn septum back when I was 15. Healed too far to the left at the top where it connects to the bone. I don't do it because I feel like I should just deal with it and not be a baby but my vanity makes me want to have a perfectly symmetric nose.

I broke my nose when I was younger, and even though my nose appeared to be completely straight, my septum was deviated, and I had very little airflow on one side. My trainer actually recognized it, because he is an MMA fighter, and has seen how a lot of guys with broken noses breathe. A visit to an EMT and several tests confirmed it, so I had a septoplasty to fix it. My nose still looks the same on the outside, but I have improved airflow on the previously deviated side. They cannot guarantee equivalent airflow to the unaffected side for neurological reasons. They longer you go with diminished airflow on that side, your brain rewires itself to not allocate as many resources to the functioning of that side. That can change over time, but not always. So you will get some improvement, but it may not be 100%.

These things are fundamentally flawed though.


Because no one would ever admit to bullying, and rarely admit to being bullied.


And even if they did, who decides whats bullying? What if someone claims they're bullied, and it turns out they're passive-aggressive trolls who antagonize people?

oh goody, i didn't know we were having a deviated septum support group.
mine is well deviated thanks to many accidents, acts of jackassery, and fighting. never broke my nose but it sure got bent af.

https://i.imgur.com/8rLKFg1l.jpg

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I broke my nose when I was younger, and even though my nose appeared to be completely straight, my septum was deviated, and I had very little airflow on one side. My trainer actually recognized it, because he is an MMA fighter, and has seen how a lot of guys with broken noses breathe. A visit to an EMT and several tests confirmed it, so I had a septoplasty to fix it. My nose still looks the same on the outside, but I have improved airflow on the previously deviated side. They cannot guarantee equivalent airflow to the unaffected side for neurological reasons. They longer you go with diminished airflow on that side, your brain rewires itself to not allocate as many resources to the functioning of that side. That can change over time, but not always. So you will get some improvement, but it may not be 100%. I've had the same and a hernia fixed that involved muscles being sown back. All good.

As long as they're consenting adults and mentally sound, they can do whatever they want.

Originally posted by Silent Master
As long as they're consenting adults and mentally sound, they can do whatever they want.

On their dime.

Originally posted by Silent Master
As long as they're consenting adults and mentally sound, they can do whatever they want.

Originally posted by cdtm
These things are fundamentally flawed though.


Because no one would ever admit to bullying, and rarely admit to being bullied.


And even if they did, who decides whats bullying? What if someone claims they're bullied, and it turns out they're passive-aggressive trolls who antagonize people?

It's a circular cultural occurrence. Cultural.
I'll share. I was recruited multiple times to give my life to a certain gang. I never accepted. My life was threatened first. Then my entire immediate family's lives were threatened if I didn't v in. Had a few drive bys when I kept refusing. I wouldn't be surprised if that still goes on, but never gets reported.

Originally posted by Eon Blue
Should men looking to be women and vice versa be encouraged or even allowed to cut their body parts off which causes irreparable damage to their bodies and mental stability solely on their feelings etc?

Encouraged? No. Allowed? Yes.

The rate of suicide is high both with and without genital removal. I doubt the suicides were caused by the surgery itself, at least for the most part, it's more likely the dysphoria.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
oh goody, i didn't know we were having a deviated septum support group.
mine is well deviated thanks to many accidents, acts of jackassery, and fighting. never broke my nose but it sure got bent af.

https://i.imgur.com/8rLKFg1l.jpg


You win.

That's worse then mine. Mine is just "off but in a straight line." Pointing slightly the left instead of "straight down" like it should.

Also, the next time it comes up, you can repost this MRI to prove you have a brain.

my nose ironically is perfectly straight and symmetrical. it's probably shorter than it should be, but you'd never be able to tell

the mri was done for non-related reasons, but it also served to visually confirm what i already knew

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, the next time it comes up, you can repost this MRI to prove you have a brain.

https://media.tenor.com/images/b85413b368392ba78e647438f2366d46/tenor.gif

Originally posted by Surtur
https://media.tenor.com/images/b85413b368392ba78e647438f2366d46/tenor.gif

I wasn't making fun of him. People resort to senseless and elementary school arguments such as, "If you had a brain, you'd realize..."

But he literally as the "car-fax" to prove it. Maybe I just like dad-jokes too much. But if I had an MRI of my brain, I'd use it all the time. "I HAVE THE EVIDENCE!!!"

I had icepick headaches, so they did the MRI to make sure there was nothing out of the ordinary, and there was not.

now show us your MRIs since I'm sure you have a library of them from headbutting all those granades

Let people do what they want.


And leave the propaganda at home. Stop trying to demonize anyone who chooses to transition, and stop trying to convince people its totally nornal for kids to be in on such a decision. And ESPECIALLY don't allow John Money "experts" to hijack the culture to further their own careers. People like him exist, and it does no good for anybody.

Hey adam calls out dumb comments from Rob, Bash, and Whirly all the time.

He ain't a hypocritical little shit, so don't call him one.

Originally posted by Surtur
Hey adam calls out dumb comments from Rob, Bash, and Whirly all the time.

He ain't a hypocritical little shit, so don't call him one.

I just call them how I see them.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I just call them how I see them.

So you must shield your eyes whenever you read posts from Bash, Whirly, and Rob.

I'll allow that excuse.

^^Defcon 3

He can at least show one post of him calling you fruitcakes out

Originally posted by Surtur
He can at least show one post of him calling you fruitcakes out

Or the mods should ban him?

Nah, like I said. Mod admitted he done f*cked up. So it's dropped.

But still Poe could show that intellect and be consistent.

Originally posted by Surtur
Nah, like I said. Mod admitted he done f*cked up. So it's dropped.



so no defcon-1 yet, but the night is still young

U guys still have a chance to be consistent.

I know Adam will be.

are you sure you're not just acting like a cranky baby who needs to be put down for nappy time?

100% sure.

He'll be consistent, I know it.

know what, this is a silly topic so I would rather you spend your cranky shitpost energies here. please continue and hope you feel better soon. sorry this is happening to you

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
know what, this is a silly topic so I would rather you spend your cranky shitpost energies here. please continue and hope you feel better soon. sorry this is happening to you

Dude, you're an embarrassment. I feel bad for those who stick up for you.

Originally posted by Surtur
Dude, you're an embarrassment. I feel bad for those who stick up for you.

Originally posted by Surtur
100% sure.

He'll be consistent, I know it.

About what?