Revan vs Darth Nihilus - Revisited

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lDarth Nihilusl

YousufKhan1212
tl;dr

ares834

lDarth Nihilusl
@ares834

Malachor V being a wound in the Force has nothing to do with Nihilus's Force Drain as it doesn't mean it would devour people of their Force connections. Meetra was a wound in the Force and she didn't devour the Force connections of others. Also if Malachor was Force draining, then how did Kreia survive it despite failing to resist Malachor? Nathema was also a wound in the Force and it didn't devour Force connections. Devouring Force connections is a technique. The similarity is that both Nihilus and Malachor V are wounds in the Force and feed on death. Malachor V does not devour Force connections, however.
In either case, the argument presented above was specifically refering to Revan and as such is about Malachor before being hit by the shadow generators and becoming a 'wound' in the force. Revan was on and resisted Malachor before it became a wound in the force.(while Kreia being consumed by Malachor was after this btw).

Ulic's technique only allowed him to counter the effects of the Dark Reaper for a short period of time and he had to stay at a certain distance away. If he got anywhere too close he would instantly die. The Dark Reaper could drain moons but Nihilus was able to drain planets giving. As such, Nihilus's Force drain is even more powerful than the Reaper.

ares834
The Exile does use Nihilus's technique. It's literally the way she levels up. She is feeding on the death she causes. Anyway, Malachor, the Exile, Nihilus they are all meant to echo one another. Malachor may not go as far as to kill people but it is what allows all these Sith to experience drain and therefore learn it.

As for the Dark Reaper. It's a question of scale not necessarily strength. Nihilus may be able to use his power on a greater scale but it doesn't necessitate that it is any harder to defend against.

S_W_LeGenD
Hmm. This is a thought-provoking piece.

I admit that resisting Force Drain and its derivatives is far from easy, and living beings are in mortal danger while exposed to the most powerful expressions.

The Malachor V part is beautifully addressed, credit where due.

The Star Forge had the capability to siphon life energy of individuals attempting to access its resources (or worse). This might be the reason why Darth Revan limited his exposure to Star Forge while accessing its resources. Although, Darth Malak felt that Darth Revan was being foolish in this case, but I would say that Darth Revan knew better.

Darth Malak also acquired a similar ability from his exposure to Star Forge if I am not mistaken, but he was unable to utilize his technique in offensive capacity while confronting redeemed Revan. This might be due to Darth Malak not having much time to advance his powers further since Bastila Shan cautioned redeemed Revan that this would happen.

Users of Force Drain and its derivatives become stronger while confronting a relatively stronger opponent because due to the 'siphon life energy' part. However, this does not suggest that the opponent is literally immobilized and cannot counter them. Otherwise, Revan's elite Sith Assassins would have been unstoppable which wasn't the case.

NATHEMA was more like a VOID in the Force (even worse than a Wound in the Force). Even the most powerful Jedi (and Sith) could not stay there for long because they would fall apart otherwise.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by ares834
The Exile does use Nihilus's technique. It's literally the way she levels up. She is feeding on the death she causes. Anyway, Malachor, the Exile, Nihilus they are all meant to echo one another. Malachor may not go as far as to kill people but it is what allows all these Sith to experience drain and therefore learn it.

As for the Dark Reaper. It's a question of scale not necessarily strength. Nihilus may be able to use his power on a greater scale but it doesn't necessitate that it is any harder to defend against.
thumb up

Although, in the case of Dark Reaper and Darth Nihilus, it is a question of both scale and strength IMHO. These two took the application to whole another level in comparison to others. Dark Reaper was an arcane superweapon whereas Darth Nihilus's condition afforded him unprecedented power in this domain.

lDarth Nihilusl
Originally posted by ares834
The Exile does use Nihilus's technique. It's literally the way she levels up. She is feeding on the death she causes. Anyway, Malachor, the Exile, Nihilus they are all meant to echo one another. Malachor may not go as far as to kill people but it is what allows all these Sith to experience drain and therefore learn it.

As for the Dark Reaper. It's a question of scale not necessarily strength. Nihilus may be able to use his power on a greater scale but it doesn't necessitate that it is any harder to defend against.

The Exile is not using Nihilus's technique. She does not devour Force connections. She feeds on the deaths she causes and that's what makes her grow stronger. Nihilus's technique devours Force connections and then feeds on the death it causes. Nihilus uses the 'devour Force connection' (his draining technique) to cause death while Meetra uses her lightsaber or any other means. She doesn't cause death by devouring connections. This technique has to be taught to users like how Kreia had taught Nihilus (only those who experience a wound can gain this though).

Malachor did not cause these 'Stih to experience drain and therefore learn it'. Malachor is just the planet that became a wound and it's this wound that lead to the hunger which allows these users like Nihilus to devour Force connections.

The greater the scale, the more powerful one has to be in that ability.

ares834
I disagree. It's all the same technique with a difference in degree. It's very sloppy writing if they are different techniques but are virtually identical in every way. Malchor, the Exile, Nihilus. They are all connected. Nihilus represents what the Exile could become if she is not careful and lets her power consume her.

lDarth Nihilusl
Originally posted by ares834
I disagree. It's all the same technique with a difference in degree. It's very sloppy writing if they are different techniques but are virtually identical in every way. Malchor, the Exile, Nihilus. They are all connected. Nihilus represents what the Exile could become if she is not careful and lets her power consume her.

Meetra is not using a 'technique' to feed on those deaths. She is feeding on them subconsciously while Nihilus is consciously feeding on deaths through his Force Drain. Nihilus causes these deaths by his Force drain while Meetra through any normal means of killing. Yes, they both feed on death but She isn't causing those deaths through Nihilus's technique of Force Drain. She may have been able to use this technique had she been trained and taught.

Yes, Nihilus,Meetra and Malachor all feed on death. Feeding on death is one thing, and causing the death itself through Nihilus's Force Drain is another. Neither Malachor or Meetra use Nihilus's Force Drain(As evidenced in the original points I made in this thread). They just feed on death but the difference is how that death is caused (with Nihilus using Force Drain to kill then feed on death caused by the drain). Force drain is simply the method/technique that Nihilus uses to cause the death on which to feed on.

ares834

S_W_LeGenD
^^^

But since Meetra Surik was a Jedi, was she actively incorporating Force Drain in her exploits much like Darth Nihilus? Or she did so unwittingly? This is the point of contention.

That she could feed on the deaths caused by her hand is not in dispute. This might be an artifact of her condition (i.e. Wound in the Force) until she healed.

lDarth Nihilusl
Actually, she very clearly does. She says that Force drain is a technique that severs connections and feeds on the death it causes. Clearly, it's the Force drain causing those deaths and then feeding on that death, which is exactly what I explained earlier. Meetra never devours Force connections. She hasn't even learnt that technique.

Also if Malachor V has the 'same power' as Nihilus and Force Drains, then how did Kreia's Force connection not get devoured? How was she able to survive Malachor despite not being able to resist it? As a matter of fact, how did the Mandalorians even survive Malachor V? It is very clear that Malachor V does not Force drain. It simply feeds on death regardless of what causes that death. Nihilus himself causes that death.

ares834
Originally posted by lDarth Nihilusl
Actually, she very clearly does. She says that Force drain is a technique that severs connections and feeds on the death it causes. Clearly, it's the Force drain causing those deaths and then feeding on that death, which is exactly what I explained earlier. Meetra never devours Force connections. She hasn't even learnt that technique.

What are you trying to say here? It was this technique (it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes) that Nihilus used to destroy Katarr. Kreia says that line in response to the Exile's question about how Nihilus destroyed Katarr. If you wanna argue that Nihilus's feeding upon force connections is different, fine. I don't care even if I disagree. But that's not his uber-tecnhque that he used to destroy Katarr.

Now if instead you are saying that Kreia is saying that he uses force drain to kill and then uses a different technique to feed on the death it causes, that's flat out wrong. This technique both kills and feeds upon death it causes as is made clear in Kreia's quote.



Difference of degree. The Sith Assassins aren't going around killing people with their drain either.

ares834
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^

But since Meetra Surik was a Jedi, was she actively incorporating Force Drain in her exploits much like Darth Nihilus? Or she did so unwittingly? This is the point of contention.

That she could feed on the deaths caused by her hand is not in dispute. This might be an artifact of her condition (i.e. Wound in the Force) until she healed.

She does it instinctively of course. She is unaware she is even doing it until the Jedi Council mention it near the end of the game.

lDarth Nihilusl
@ares834

What you are failing to understand is that there is no 'technique' being used when they feed on death. When death happens, they feed on that death regardless of what caused that death. Nihilus's drain causes the death and then feeds on that death instinctively. The technique itself causes the death , it doesn't feed on the death. It's Nihilus that feeds on the death. The technique allows him to feed on the death because it is causing that death.

'Difference of degree.' Are you saying that Malachor V's 'Force Drain' isn't even strong enough to kill basic non-force sensitive Mandalorians? Then why would Revan resisting this supposed 'Force Drain' even mean anything if anyone could resist it?

Also the Sith Assassins are killing Jedi with this technique to the point that the Jedi were hunted by them and were very close to extinction.

Are you also claiming that Meetra is devouring people's Force connections instinctively?

ares834
I did not say Revan could resist force drain nor used Malachor V as an example as such. I agree that him being able to resist Malachor does not mean he could resist Nihilus's drain.

And there is nothing to suggest the Sith Assassins kill with the technique only that they use it to empower themselves.

lDarth Nihilusl
Originally posted by ares834
I did not say Revan could resist force drain nor used Malachor V as an example as such. I agree that him being able to resist Malachor does not mean he could resist Nihilus's drain.

And there is nothing to suggest the Sith Assassins kill with the technique only that they use it to empower themselves.

"During the Jedi Civil War, many Jedi fell at the hands of Sith assassins, using techniques in the Force the Jedi could not defend against."

-Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

Unbowed
Regarding the Star Forge blunting one's connection to the Force: IIRC from the Dawn of the Jedi comics, Predor Skal'Nas mentions that the Rakata's connection to the Force is beginning to diminish as far back as 25000 BBY. I don't think the Star Forge is mentioned directly but that(or similar technology, based on the same principle) is the obvious reason.

Regarding Malachor's corruption: going strictly from the games, no one resisted Malachor save the Exile, and that's only because she cut herself off from the Force. That's what makes her special, it's the premise of her whole character. I think secondary source material that contradicts this should be discounted.

It seems silly to say that Revan "resisted" Malachor and Kreia did not. Their journey is basically identical. I don't see how Revan "resisted". It's true, he didn't become a Sunday morning cartoon villain, but neither did Kreia.
They both fell to the Dark side because they were ready to go. They were disillusioned with the Jedi. Malachor's energies were just part of the reason, the other part was that both were ultra curious people and they delved deeply into the Sith lore and teachings that they found in the Trayus academy.

lDarth Nihilusl
Originally posted by Unbowed
Regarding the Star Forge blunting one's connection to the Force: IIRC from the Dawn of the Jedi comics, Predor Skal'Nas mentions that the Rakata's connection to the Force is beginning to diminish as far back as 25000 BBY. I don't think the Star Forge is mentioned directly but that(or similar technology, based on the same principle) is the obvious reason.

Regarding Malachor's corruption: going strictly from the games, no one resisted Malachor save the Exile, and that's only because she cut herself off from the Force. That's what makes her special, it's the premise of her whole character. I think secondary source material that contradicts this should be discounted.

It seems silly to say that Revan "resisted" Malachor and Kreia did not. Their journey is basically identical. I don't see how Revan "resisted". It's true, he didn't become a Sunday morning cartoon villain, but neither did Kreia.
They both fell to the Dark side because they were ready to go. They were disillusioned with the Jedi. Malachor's energies were just part of the reason, the other part was that both were ultra curious people and they delved deeply into the Sith lore and teachings that they found in the Trayus academy.

I completely agree with you regarding the Malachor part. To me, Revan didn't really resist anything on Malachor V; he was already on the dark side by then. In either case, its completely irrelevant to being able to resist Nihilus's drain, as many people have tried to argue before.

As for the Star Forge, I would actually be interested in knowing about that.I think I may have heard something like that before in game. Do you happen to have the quotes for those?

Unbowed
As for the topic at hand, if you accept the premise of Nihilus' character as presented in the game, Revan doesn't stand a chance of beating him. Almost no one does.

TOR and related material tried to nerf Nihilus and KOTOR 2's cast so they wouldn't overshadow Vitiate & co but Nihilus as presented in KOTOR 2 is a Lovecraftian abomination that no normal Force user can hope to match. He just operates on a completely different scale, like a Force black hole. Remember that Kreia's(and Visas') main concern in the game is that Nihilus' power is close to peaking and soon nothing will be able to stop him, he will consume the whole galaxy. He is basically a demi-god?

Who can resist Nihilus? Actual gods, the ones that were presented in Supernatural Encounters:
- The Ones/Celestials like Wutzek and the Father of Shadows
-their children and grandchildren: lesser gods like Tilotny, Cold Danda Sine, Typhojem, Abeloth etc.

Who else?
- probably Jerec if he succeeded in absorbing the Valley of the Jedi's power. The way Qu'Rahn told it, Jerec would have become a god himself.

-possibly Darth Plagueis, but this is just speculation. In his entry/journal in the Book of Sith Darth Plagueis muses that the Sever Force ability(which is basically the same as the Draining ability, the difference being that the user doesn't leech on the victim) is just another form of midichlorian manipulation, but he considered it quite "simple" compared to what he was trying to achieve.

And torward the end of the Darth Plagueis novel, he was quite close to realizing his goals, which is the reason Palpatine killed him. Plagueis reanimated Venamis. He increased his own midichlorian count. It's possible that with such control, he could have resisted Nihilus' drain.

-Possibly Darth Krayt. Not much evidence here, only that Krayt himself was very capable with the technique, to the point where he was able to severely injure and kill a demi-god like Abeloth. He was also wrapped up with esoteric things like the Throne of Balance, was able to travel Beyond Shadows etc.

-Possibly Talzin. Again, not much evidence, only that her abilities were different than those of normal Force users. See how she was able to remotely kill Dooku by ritual, or when she became incorporeal and teleported when Grievous attacked her on Dathomir. She may have something up her sleeve that allows her to block Nihilus.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by ares834
She does it instinctively of course. She is unaware she is even doing it until the Jedi Council mention it near the end of the game.
Well, that is really interesting.

When I will get a better laptop, I will revisit both KoTOR games again. It's been a long time.

S_W_LeGenD

ares834
Originally posted by lDarth Nihilusl
"During the Jedi Civil War, many Jedi fell at the hands of Sith assassins, using techniques in the Force the Jedi could not defend against."

-Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

Which only says that the Assassins used said techniques to aid them, not that it was the direct cause of death. If the SA used drain to amplify their powers to kill Jedi the quote still holds true.

lDarth Nihilusl
Originally posted by ares834
Which only says that the Assassins used said techniques to aid them, not that it was the direct cause of death. If the SA used drain to amplify their powers to kill Jedi the quote still holds true.

Whilst I would have agreed with you at first, the quote specifically says 'using techniques in the Force the Jedi could not defend against.. If the SA only used the technique to amplify their powers then the context of that part of the quote would not make much sense compared to the SA using the technique in killing the Jedi by draining.

ares834
It makes perfect sense. They are leeching of the Jedi's own power. The Jedi, unable to defend against this technique, are then forced to fight far more powerful foe. As Kreia herself states, "And they can draw upon the Jedi's own strength to kill them."

Anyway, if the Assassins could use drain in a purely offensive way why would they have never attempted it against the Exile or her companions? The obvious and logical conclusion is they can't.

Avellone likes to tie gameplay mechanics into the lore. He does this many times including within Kotor II. The Sith Assassins are simply another example of this. The reason why they continue to be a threat to you throughout the game despite the fact that the Exile has grown far more powerful by leveling up is because they are leeching of the Exile's (or I suppose more accurately her companions') power.

lDarth Nihilusl

lDarth Nihilusl
Also note how the quote describes Force draining as a frightening and nauseating experience. Yet Meetra has not experienced anything like this indicating she has never used the technique.

ares834
Originally posted by lDarth Nihilusl
Taking your interpretation, so if the Sith Assassins who are even trained in the technique can't even use the technique effectively enough to kill Jedi, then the 'degree of significance' of Malachor in draining is pretty much worthless and not even worth mentioning.

Yes.

Freedon Nadd
Malachor V is both a dark side nexus and a wound in the Force.

For some reason, Bao-Dur's generator was unable to affect the Trayus Academy's Force energies. Therefore, that site was the only thing touched by The Force.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well, that is really interesting.

When I will get a better laptop, I will revisit both KoTOR games again. It's been a long time.

It is actually true that Bioware did nerf Nihilus' accomplishments, with Vitiate, in a way. And while The Sith Triumvirate were supposed to be a "minor" reflection of the power of the True Sith. You cannot deny the fact that Vitiate is nothing more but a copy-paste version of Darth Nihilus, but one without the weaknesses included. Bioware could have done so much with Vitiate in a different way instead of making him a Nihilus 2.0 .

lDarth Nihilusl
@Freedon Nadd

I should also add to this thread that I have thoroughly went through and debunked the Meetra quote on Revan and Nihilus.

It can be found here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t668922.html

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by lDarth Nihilusl
@Freedon Nadd

I should also add to this thread that I have thoroughly went through and debunked the Meetra quote on Revan and Nihilus.

It can be found here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t668922.html

I know. I have seen it.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
It is actually true that Bioware did nerf Nihilus' accomplishments, with Vitiate, in a way. And while The Sith Triumvirate were supposed to be a "minor" reflection of the power of the True Sith. You cannot deny the fact that Vitiate is nothing more but a copy-paste version of Darth Nihilus, but one without the weaknesses included. Bioware could have done so much with Vitiate in a different way instead of making him a Nihilus 2.0 .
You got this right - I have to agree.

I had this conversation with member |Darth Nihilus| as well, and WE both drew similar conclusion based on information exchanged.

Indeed, there were numerous ways for making the Emperor very impressive and capable but WE received a SUPER DARTH NIHILUS instead.

BioWare ruined the character of Revan as well, in the Shadow of Revan expansion set, unfortunately.

Although, VALKORION STORY ARC is really good; BioWare redeemed itself in this case. This STORY ARC felt different and refreshing.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You got this right - I have to agree.

I had this conversation with member |Darth Nihilus| as well, and WE both drew similar conclusion based on information exchanged.

Indeed, there were numerous ways for making the Emperor very impressive and capable but WE received a SUPER DARTH NIHILUS instead.

BioWare ruined the character of Revan as well, in the Shadow of Revan expansion set, unfortunately.

Although, VALKORION STORY ARC is really good; BioWare redeemed itself in this case. This STORY ARC felt different and refreshing.

I always thought Eternal Knights was Bioware's message of how Disney(Vitiate) took over Lucas(Valkorion). laughing

But, yes. I think EK did do Vitiate(more) justice to his character. It almost feels as if they are two different characters.

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