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This is a free for all between TPM Maul, peak Ventress and peak Savage (no rage amp). Legends only. Who wins?

Dang! Wrong forum!

Maul comes out on top no question.

Not sure between Ventress and Opress. I know hes beaten her, but I think she might have come out on top if they tangled again.

Maul>Ventress>Savage imo

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Maul>Ventress>Savage imo agreed

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Maul>Ventress>Savage imo This.

Really kind of strange how much weaker TPM Maul is in canon then he was in Legends. In Legends he was an absolute beast.

Canon TPM Maul f*ucked up a rathtar...

Originally posted by Sheev
This.

Really kind of strange how much weaker TPM Maul is in canon then he was in Legends. In Legends he was an absolute beast. TPM Maul hasn't been written "weaker". In fact, he is still stated to be "one of the deadliest, most efficiently trained Sith in the Order's history":
https://i.imgur.com/eYdJDmR.jpg

The difference is that TPM Maul hasn't been expanded on nearly as much in canon as he was in Legends.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Canon TPM Maul f*ucked up a rathtar...

He slaughtered a few of them with his h2h skills alone... While only using a goddamn axe.

^ And was literally grappling with one. He was a physical beast.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ And was literally grappling with one. He was a physical beast.

But he also needed help against some hunters in the same series.

Eh inconsistency will be inconsistent I guess....but yeah, Maul takes this.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
But he also needed help against some hunters in the same series.

Eh inconsistency will be inconsistent I guess....but yeah, Maul takes this.

That's probably because Maul didn't exert himself as much when he fought the Bounty Hunters, and they were in much greater numbers than the Rathtars IIRC. SW is weird in that regard, when Force users clash with non Force sensitives, they should be blitzing them but don't, I always chalk it up to the Force users not being arsed to tap into their Force reserves to do the blitzing.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
That's probably because Maul didn't exert himself as much when he fought the Bounty Hunters, and they were in much greater numbers than the Rathtars IIRC. SW is weird in that regard, when Force users clash with non Force sensitives, they should be blitzing them but don't, I always chalk it up to the Force users not being arsed to tap into their Force reserves to do the blitzing.

I mean blitzing isn't the only way, but I guess. Still I feel like the writers always wanna show Force Users as powerful...but at the same time grounded, it was like that before too.

Then again, problem with multiple writers I guess...though if it's in the same series, it's weird.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I mean blitzing isn't the only way, but I guess. Still I feel like the writers always wanna show Force Users as powerful...but at the same time grounded, it was like that before too.

Then again, problem with multiple writers I guess...though if it's in the same series, it's weird.


Hunting the Rathtars was a physical feat. Whereas against the Hunters it's more about blaster deflection against greater numbers.

Sometimes feats need to be broken down like that.

But aside from that I wouldn't overthink it.

Maul>Savage>Ventress

I agree that Maul is the strongest, but the question isn't who the strongest is, it's a 3 way battle.

Well its unlikely Opress would team up with Ventress against his brother, but even if he did, they still may not be able to take Maul, though itd be a much more interesting contest where Maul may be pushed to his limits.

This isn't Ventress + Opress vs TPM Maul though, TPM Maul would honestly get creamed if Ventress and Opress teamed up against him, either can individually give him a good fight before getting hammered to their deaths.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
This isn't Ventress + Opress vs TPM Maul though, TPM Maul would honestly get creamed if Ventress and Opress teamed up against him, either can individually give him a good fight before getting hammered to their deaths.

If its a 3 way fight then its as weve already said, Savage is likely the first to die, Maul will be the winner.

I wouldnt count on that. He was a more than match for TPM Qui-Gon + Obi-Wan. He has the physical strength to take on both, and he will likely exploit Savages lack of skill.

Ventress and Opress combined would destroy Jinn and TPM Kenobi. Weaker versions of Ventres and Opress put Dooku on his ass for a moment, and Dooku had to spam Force Lightning to survive (something Maul doesn't bother using), and their combined fighting styles will just be a nightmare for Maul. Not seeing he beats both of them at the same time.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Ventress and Opress combined would destroy Jinn and TPM Kenobi. Weaker versions of Ventres and Opress put Dooku on his ass for a moment, and Dooku had to spam Force Lightning to survive (something Maul doesn't bother using), and their combined fighting styles will just be a nightmare for Maul. Not seeing he beats both of them at the same time. That was a weaker version of Dooku as well if we are going to get technical.

Proof that Dooku grew?

I don't know where to find it but it's been posted in a few threads recently. Says plainly Dookus power grew noticeably during the Clone Wars.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Proof that Dooku grew? Stated in Fact Files. I posted it recently.

I'm talking about evidence that RotS Dooku is stronger than S3 Dooku. Quotes that say Dooku improved between AotC and RotS don't *really* specify how much time of the war Dooku improved in, S3 is more than midway through the war because it takes place in 20 BBY, it could very well be that Dooku grew throughout the war but when did his growth stop? 22 BBY? 21 BBY? 20 BBY? Season 6? RotS?

Not sure how relevant this is, but I think Maul is a hard counter to Savage. When most people are first attacked by Savage they're usually fked by his massive strength, but Maul also due to being extremely strong is able to counter Savage and defeat him easily due to his strength not being a problem for him and his skill far exceeding his.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Ventress and Opress combined would destroy Jinn and TPM Kenobi. Weaker versions of Ventres and Opress put Dooku on his ass for a moment, and Dooku had to spam Force Lightning to survive (something Maul doesn't bother using), and their combined fighting styles will just be a nightmare for Maul. Not seeing he beats both of them at the same time.


Yes but weve also seen both Revival Maul and Revival Kenobi stomp Opress. In fact weve seen Dooku stomp Opress 1v1 in their sparring session. I doubt Revival Maul is above TPM Maul given he was still in recovery.

Dooku just seemed to struggle a bit with Opress strength in the 2 on 1, but end of he was still beating them both. And just because he used Lightning, doesnt mean hed be screwed without lightning.

But as Scizard has already mentioned, Maul doesnt seem to have much trouble dealing with Opress strength, and is infinitely more skilled.

was there some sort of circumstance present when ventress beat grevious in dd. If not, Ventress probably takes this.

This is Legends only, DD is canon.

Ventress beat Grievous in TCW S4, which is included in Legends. And happens long after their first Legends confrontation in which Grievous owned her.

Filoni's commentary on that duel is that he doesn't believe that Grievous could ever take out Ventress in a lightsaber fight, but IIRC the same Filoni says that Grievous's most powerful tools are fear and intimidation tactics, and that he'd lose to practically any Jedi if they're not scared of him. Darth Thor do you have a quote for that?

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Filoni's commentary on that duel is that he doesn't believe that Grievous could ever take out Ventress in a lightsaber fight, but IIRC the same Filoni says that Grievous's most powerful tools are fear and intimidation tactics, and that he'd lose to practically any Jedi if they're not scared of him. Darth Thor do you have a quote for that?


Yes its on my laptop. Sorry was supposed to get that for you a long time ago. Will post it tonight.

There is no need to hurry, take all the time you need.

Here you go:

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/21/star-wars-the-clone-wars-looking-back-at-season-4?page=3

"I still don't believe that, at this point -- one-to-one -- that Grievous could really take out someone like Ventress in a lightsaber fight. I mean, it's just me, but he doesn't have the Force. He can't wield it. I don't see how he can hope to be as proficient as a Jedi or a Sith could be fighting with a lightsaber, which is why he's always willing to dirty play at the end of the day."

"Yeah, it's in the movie. Mace Windu says, "General Grievous will run and hide, as he always does." He's an interesting character for all that thought. And obviously, you know, he's adept at using lightsabers, but I always thought his thing was fear. If you are afraid of the many swirling blades, then you'll parish staring at them. But if you can just focus through it, you can defeat that opponent "

Thanks for providing it. Ha! If we accept Filoni's opinion that Ventress is better than Grievous (which is the only statement supporting her supremacy), then we also have to accept his opinion that Grievous sucks as a duelist, is inferior to any Jedi and Sith and that his use of fear is his saving grace. Filoni's commentary doesn't wank Ventress, it just hurts Grievous.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Here you go:

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/21/star-wars-the-clone-wars-looking-back-at-season-4?page=3

"I still don't believe that, at this point -- one-to-one -- that Grievous could really take out someone like Ventress in a lightsaber fight. I mean, it's just me, but he doesn't have the Force. He can't wield it. I don't see how he can hope to be as proficient as a Jedi or a Sith could be fighting with a lightsaber, which is why he's always willing to dirty play at the end of the day."

"Yeah, it's in the movie. Mace Windu says, "General Grievous will run and hide, as he always does." He's an interesting character for all that thought. And obviously, you know, he's adept at using lightsabers, but I always thought his thing was fear. If you are afraid of the many swirling blades, then you'll parish staring at them. But if you can just focus through it, you can defeat that opponent "

Honestly, this is a pretty cool throwback to Dooku's commentary on Grievous in the original Clone Wars.

"If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side. But if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory and have your trophy."

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Thanks for providing it. Ha! If we accept Filoni's opinion that Ventress is better than Grievous (which is the only statement supporting her supremacy), then we also have to accept his opinion that Grievous sucks as a duelist, is inferior to any Jedi and Sith and that his use of fear is his saving grace. Filoni's commentary doesn't wank Ventress, it just hurts Grievous.
Orrr, you could just acknowledge he says "it's just me" meaning the statement doesn't express authorial intent and then just use the actual feat of ventress being able to beat someone shown to be able to beat maul level opponents :/

Now off course you could point out the nexus, but people don't seem to like that for some reason. If you take ventress's win as leigitamte she should be able to beat tpm maul

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Orrr, you could just acknowledge he says "it's just me" meaning the statement doesn't express authorial intent and then just use the actual feat of ventress being able to beat someone shown to be able to beat maul level opponents :/

Now off course you could point out the nexus, but people don't seem to like that for some reason. If you take ventress's win as leigitamte she should be able to beat tpm maul

Grievous beats Maul level opponents? Urm.... yeah sure. Believe whatever floats your boat Rocky.

As for Filonis statement, It clearly shows Directors intent for WHY Ventress beat Grievous. Simply put, the Director feels shes better.

Otherwise if you want to distinguish his opinion from him stating fact, then theres literally zero proof that Rebels Kenobi is > Rebels Maul, given he also stated Kenobis superiority as his opinion. And fact files have confirmed Kenobi caught Maul off guard with Qui-Gons stance.

But you cant just take his opinion as canon when it suits you and as non-canon when it doesnt.


Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
then we also have to accept his opinion that Grievous sucks as a duelist,

I underlined the part where he states Grievous is adept at using sabers.

So saying he sucks as a duelist clearly isnt what Filoni said.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Orrr, you could just acknowledge he says "it's just me" meaning the statement doesn't express authorial intent and then just use the actual feat of ventress being able to beat someone shown to be able to beat maul level opponents :/

Now off course you could point out the nexus, but people don't seem to like that for some reason. If you take ventress's win as leigitamte she should be able to beat tpm maul

There's a reason why I said Filoni's opinion, the nexus arguments that people have used to salvage Grievous are valid though, because several published sources in Legends identify Dathomir as a Dark Side Nexus, some people don't think that argument is valid because Filoni believes that Grievous can't actually beat Ventress in a fight.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I underlined the part where he states Grievous is adept at using sabers.

So saying he sucks as a duelist clearly isnt what Filoni said.

I meant that Filoni's opinion is that Grievous sucks as a deulist in comparison to Jedi and Sith, because he also said he doesn't see how he can hope to be as proficient as a Jedi or Sith in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
some people don't think that argument is valid because Filoni believes that Grievous can't actually beat Ventress in a fight.


Probably doesnt apply to canon.

Probably is valid for Legends... But then Ventress didnt even use TK against him so....


Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
I meant that Filoni's opinion is that Grievous sucks as a deulist in comparison to Jedi and Sith, because he also said he doesn't see how he can hope to be as proficient as a Jedi or Sith in lightsaber combat.


Yeah due to them having the Force.

That said, hes clearly a threat to Jedi, even if the threat mostly comes from Fear and Intimidation. And even the Jedi/Sith who handle him usually need to resort to applying TK to do so.