Revan REVISITED (2020)

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S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD
3/5

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Darth Revan

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Revan proved his mettle once more, but now as a Dark Lord of the Sith:

As Darth Revan, he created his own Empire and nearly destroyed the Republic, before he was betrayed by Darth Malak - once his friend and ally Alek.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encylopedia

Darth Revan was thinking on a monumental level actually:

Revan and Malak scoured the galaxy and ultimately discovered the Star Forge. But instead of delivering it to the Emperor, Revan seized the Star Forge for his own use. With Malak by his side and the Star Forge supplying his fleet, Revan formed a new Sith Empire and prepared to conquer the Republic. Only by uniting the galaxy under his rule could Revan hope to defeat the threat posed by the Emperor.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encylopedia

Darth Bane held ancient Sith such as Naga Sadow, Exar Kun and Darth Revan in high regard:

The strength of numbers was a trap, one that snared all the great Dark Lords who had come before. Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Darth Revan, each had been powerful.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Darth Revan constructed a holocron at some point to preserve his knowledge and findings. This is one of the most challenging constructs ever:

Scholars know that a holocron is a box of crystalline lattices, which are capable of housing near-infinite amounts of priceless data. These matrices can be aligned only through precise and exhausting application of the Force. A completed holocron can be accessed only by another Force-user. To navigate a holocron's secrets, one must speak to its gatekeeper - a holographic echo of the device's builder that retains a measure of the builder's spirit. Constructing a holocron can take months, and a single misstep can collapse the device into dust.

Taken from Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

https://i.ibb.co/09xJcPQ/Sith-holocrons.png

NOTE: Jedi Master Mace Windu noted that the Jedi have recovered many Sith holocrons but he did not realize that many of these were actually FAKE (Palpatine's observation; the Jedi are easily fooled). Authentic Sith holocrons are 'uncommon' given the fact that how difficult it is to create one, and chances are finding one is slim.

Darth Bane had luck on his side as he discovered holocron of Darth Revan on Lehon and found its contents to be overwhelming:

To Bane, it seemed the teachings contained within the single Holocron surpassed those of the Academy's entire archives. Revan had discovered many of the rituals of the ancient Sith, and as the Holocron's avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible - so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith Master - that he doubted he would ever dare to use them . . .

And there was far more than just the ancient practices of dark side sorcerers stored inside the Holocron. In only a few short weeks he'd learned more about the true nature of the dark side than he had in all his time on Korriban. Revan had been a true Sith Lord, unlike the simpering Masters who bowed to Kaan and his Brotherhood. And soon all his knowledge-his understanding of the dark side-would belong to Bane.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Expanding on the bold part below:

Once known as Medriaas, Nathema was an agriworld of the Sith Empire at the time when the Sith also controlled the Chorlian sector. An ancient Dark Lord of the Sith named Darth Vitiate destroyed all life on Nathema with a ritual designed to grant him immortality. A transcription of the ritual was recorded by Darth Revan and served as the inspiration for Lord Kaan's thought bomb on Ruusan.

Taken from Star Wars: Force and Destiny: Core Rulebook

NOTE: Darth Revan's instructions 'motivated' Darth Bane to establish the Rule of Two, and also made it possible for the Bannite Sith to leapfrog the Brotherhood with TRUE knowledge of the dark side. However, a part of this knowledge was deemed too dangerous or risky to replicate by Darth Bane and possibly others. Revan's Sith legacy facilitated the FALL of the Old Republic and the Jedi Order at some point in the future.

Darth Revan and Darth Malak had disagreements in time which eventually culminated into a duel between them and the outcome was grim for Darth Malak:

Malak sees Lord Revan as soft, resulting in a tension that culminates in a lightsaber duel; Malak loses his lower jaw to Revan's blade, necessitating a metallic jaw guard. Returning the favor, Malak fires on Revan's flagship. Unaware that the Jedi have captured the traitor, Malak assumes the crown of the ruling Dark Lord, inheriting the empire.

Taken from Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide

Darth Malak was however strong in the dark side, strong enough to endure that kind of injury and returned the favor in the form of his BETRAYAL when Darth Revan was preoccupied with a Jedi Strike Team led by the powerful Jedi Knight Bastila Shan, making it possible for the Jedi to capture Darth Revan while in comatose condition, and it took the combined might of the Jedi Council to mindwipe him but the effort was not entirely successful:

"Even the combined power of the Jedi Council couldn't keep your true identity buried forever, could it?" - Darth Malak

EXPANDED:-

Darth Revan and Darth Malak carved a path of destruction across Republic space. Backed by an endless armada built by the Star Forge, and aided by Revan's knowledge of Republic strategy, their victories were numerous and brutal. But after several years of triumphs, Revan's campaign would end abruptly in a Republic trap and Sith deception.

A Jedi strike team assembled to capture Revan - and redeem him, if possible. Under the command of the powerful Jedi Bastila Shan, the strike team attacked Revan's flagship, boarded his vessel, and confronted the mighty Sith. Nearby, Darth Malak sensed the suddenly vulnerability of his Master and promptly exploited it. In a treacherous power grab, Malak bombarded Revan's ship to annihiliate his former friend and the Jedi forces on board. Believing Revan dead, Malak declared himself new ruler of the Sith Empire.

But Revan survived Malak's attack. Severly injured and clinging to his life, he was rescued by Bastila Shan, who transpoted the comatose Sith to the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine. It was there that the Jedi healed not only Revan's wounded body, but the scars and traumas that wacked his mind. Their combined power erased Revan's memories of his dark past. Only a handful of Jedi knew that this innocent soldier had once been the powerful Sith Darth Revan.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encylopedia

S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD
Likewise:

https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1056378721790132224?s=20

YIKES

My assessment align with that of Mr. Chris Avellone to large extent (Revan vs. Darth Vader part in particular); although, to be fair to Darth Nihilus, he could kill/consume 'any' (natural) Force-user given his unprecedented command of Force Drain. Although, Darth Vader could render himself immune to the effects of Force Drain and/or its derivatives for a short period of time (ambiguity factor), this might not be much of a help to him when up against Darth Nihilus whose mere presence had a detrimental effect on those near him and he is very likely to make heavy use of these powers to his advantage even in combative situations. Darth Nihilus is/was very strong in other applications as well including his ability to 'immobilize' opponent(s) and Telekinetic applications. Therefore, he could find a way to undermine Darth Vader in single combat until latter's defenses against Force Drain falter.

Below is a footage showing cut-content of KoTOR II:-

DOr-7kzKbjA

Although, not official, it does show what Darth Nihilus could do in a fight in which he was not circumstantially compromised. He other individuals who stood nearby and utterly dominated Darth Sion in 'any' scenario. In one of the cut-scenes, Darth Sion a Jedi survivor in an encounter. Therefore, a degree of SCALING is shown as well.

Revan versus Darth Nihilus

Revan vs. Darth Nihilus is a debate in itself; Revan was packing 'surprises' of his own, and only the Sith Emperor outgunned him in combative situations. The Sith Emperor had a rebellious Dark Council before, such was the measure of his power.

For now; I would say that if Revan make the first move, he is likely to dictate the course of the battle (vs. Darth Nihilus). However, opposite can also be true.

cool

Galan007
Well done. thumb up

Really enjoyed that read.

S_W_LeGenD
^^^

Thanks, friend. smile

lDarth Nihilusl

NewGuy01
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Likewise:

https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1056378721790132224?s=20

YIKES

I'd like to point out that, when he's discussed hypothetical versus battles in the past, Avellone typically hasn't approached them as 1v1 cage matches like we tend to here. For example, when asked about whether or not Nihilus could just drain Revan to death, he answered with something along the lines of: "It doesn't matter if he could or not, because Revan wouldn't confront him directly. He'd lure him into a trap, and blow him to smithereens from afar before he even had the chance to resist."

Whether or not he was thinking along those same lines in that tweet about Vader and Nihilus, obviously I can't say for sure. But in my experience, that's how he tends to approach things: from the setting that 'they both exist in the same time period, and have decided the galaxy isn't big enough for the both of them,' rather than the setting that 'they're both on an empty plain with their lightsabers drawn.' In private correspondence, he's also said that he considers Vader and Palpatine to be the "end-all be-all dark side badasses." As I recall, that was from a discussion that was specifically about Nihilus, too. So take from that what you will.

lDarth Nihilusl
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'd like to point out that, when he's discussed hypothetical versus battles in the past, Avellone typically hasn't approached them as 1v1 cage matches like we tend to here. For example, when asked about whether or not Nihilus could just drain Revan to death, he answered with something along the lines of: "It doesn't matter if he could or not, because Revan wouldn't confront him directly. He'd lure him into a trap, and blow him to smithereens from afar before he even had the chance to resist."

Whether or not he was thinking along those same lines in that tweet about Vader and Nihilus, obviously I can't say for sure. But in my experience, that's how he tends to approach things: from the setting that 'they both exist in the same time period, and have decided the galaxy isn't big enough for the both of them,' rather than the setting that 'they're both on an empty plain with their lightsabers drawn.' In private correspondence, he's also said that he considers Vader and Palpatine to be the "end-all be-all dark side badasses." As I recall, that was from a discussion that was specifically about Nihilus, too. So take from that what you will.

I am glad you actually pointed that out. I agree with you on that point as well. Chris doesn't seem to approach 1v1s like we do and rather looks at it from a bigger perspective than a 'cage' match. If you look at his answer between Vader and Nihilus he goes on about Nihilus and Vader fighting in the present or the past and things like that. How would that make a difference in a 1v1 cage match though? Why does it matter when (present or past) they fight? He seems to be looking at it in a different view than we do.

The same thing happened when a Chris was asked if Revan would be able to resist Nihilus's drain. Chris just goes on saying stuff how Revan is more tactically sound than Kreia and what not. Again he is looking at things in a different perspective.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'd like to point out that, when he's discussed hypothetical versus battles in the past, Avellone typically hasn't approached them as 1v1 cage matches like we tend to here. For example, when asked about whether or not Nihilus could just drain Revan to death, he answered with something along the lines of: "It doesn't matter if he could or not, because Revan wouldn't confront him directly. He'd lure him into a trap, and blow him to smithereens from afar before he even had the chance to resist."

Whether or not he was thinking along those same lines in that tweet about Vader and Nihilus, obviously I can't say for sure. But in my experience, that's how he tends to approach things: from the setting that 'they both exist in the same time period, and have decided the galaxy isn't big enough for the both of them,' rather than the setting that 'they're both on an empty plain with their lightsabers drawn.' In private correspondence, he's also said that he considers Vader and Palpatine to be the "end-all be-all dark side badasses." As I recall, that was from a discussion that was specifically about Nihilus, too. So take from that what you will.

Why try to 'corner' an author in a conversation? No author will offer a DEFINITIVE 'answer' under such circumstances.

"It doesn't matter if he could or not, because Revan wouldn't confront him directly. He'd lure him into a trap, and blow him to smithereens from afar before he even had the chance to resist."

Congratulations for that because Mr. Chris Avellone dodged the bullet in that case.

The tweet which I shard is straightforward and to the point in its message. The author particularly asserted that Revan would wreck them both. There's that.

S_W_LeGenD
@|Darth Nihilus|

Thanks for your appreciation, friend. smile

That statement is contradicted by the original source KoTOR II itself:

2qyGRYEihqo

Q: Tell me what you saw.

R: A man, nothing more.

Darth Nihilus might have imbued his MASK and ROBES with a part of his essence at some point. His body and robes vanished in the end, but his MASK was probably taken.

Secondly, well, Darth Traya was of the view that he would fall apart at some point because his condition was taking a toll on his very existence. INSTABILITY factor?

True, but a bond can develop swiftly.

The quote in focus, is not time-sensitive. And the accolade within, seems to imply the PRESENT situation (not Revan's past).

NewGuy01
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why try to 'corner' an author in a conversation? No author will offer a DEFINITIVE 'answer' under such circumstances.

"It doesn't matter if he could or not, because Revan wouldn't confront him directly. He'd lure him into a trap, and blow him to smithereens from afar before he even had the chance to resist."

Congratulations for that because Mr. Chris Avellone dodged the bullet in that case.

The tweet which I shard is straightforward and to the point in its message. The author particularly asserted that Revan would wreck them both. There's that.

On the contrary. The answers he provided in the aforementioned conversation were detailed, and he had opportunities to clarify his intent in follow-up questions. The tweet you provided was just an ambiguous one-sentence answer. There is no good reason at all to discard the former in favor of the latter, unless the goal is to deliberately misconstrue his opinion.

As per usual, your judgement here is being clouded by your desire to push your narrative.

lDarth Nihilusl

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by NewGuy01
On the contrary. The answers he provided in the aforementioned conversation were detailed, and he had opportunities to clarify his intent in follow-up questions. The tweet you provided was just an ambiguous one-sentence answer. There is no good reason at all to discard the former in favor of the latter, unless the goal is to deliberately misconstrue his opinion.

As per usual, your judgement here is being clouded by your desire to push your narrative.
Friend,

I have clearly stated that Darth Nihilus can take on and defeat any natural Force-user, given his powers and particularly unprecedented command of the Force Drain. That, depending upon how the fight materialze, he can defeat Revan (Reborn) as well.

That is the measure of my respect and acknowledgement of numerous official revelations which lead me to that conclusion.

Your focus on a tweet is disappointing. It is just to add some perspective in my blog.

Thank you.

S_W_LeGenD

lDarth Nihilusl

S_W_LeGenD
Yes, my friend.

Absolutely that.

Darth Nihilus was 'approaching' the Sith Emperor in the ALTER aspect when he consumed Katarr, but he was lacking in the CONTROL aspect throughout.

The CONTROL aspect is one of the most powerful abilities of a Force-user.

Consider this. You buy a high-performance car with "autopilot function." While useful in certain situations, it does not offer the level of CONTROL that a skilled driver has. There is no substitute for a skilled driver in "high-stakes driving." High-performance cars which are used in "racing tournaments," feature MANUAL gears as well. Why do you think this is the case? smile

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Yes, you are correct. Darth Nihilus would have that kind of power, to hold the Ravager together with his sheer raw power if everything else fails. Though I am not sure for long this application could be sustained.

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Well, interpretations can vary in relation to any statement (QUALITATIVE); perceived reality.

If you have ever studied research paradigms and their respective ontology (theory of knowledge)...

Positivism = Reality is objective
Interpretivism = Reality is perceived
Constructivism = Reality is constructed
Critical theory = Reality have historical underpinnings
Post-positivism = Reality can be objective and perceived; both aspects may complement each other.

Your perspective can be just as valid as mine.

You may say that that statement allude to Revan as of the MW endgame; valid.

But somebody may say that that statement is not time-sensitive to that extent because the CONTEXT surrounding it is that of Revan's impact on Lord Scourge whom Meetra Surik met in the present. And as I pointed out earlier, Revan's 'command of the Force' had only grown since. Therefore, Meetra's assessment remain valid one way or the other.

smile

While consensus-building is possible, debates are never-ending...

lDarth Nihilusl
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, my friend.

Absolutely that.

Darth Nihilus was 'approaching' the Sith Emperor in the ALTER aspect when he consumed Katarr, but he was lacking in the CONTROL aspect throughout.

The CONTROL aspect is one of the most powerful abilities of a Force-user.

Consider this. You buy a high-performance car with "autopilot function." While useful in certain situations, it does not offer the level of CONTROL that a skilled driver has. There is no substitute for a skilled driver in "high-stakes driving." High-performance cars which are used in "racing tournaments," feature MANUAL gears as well. Why do you think this is the case? smile

---

Yes, you are correct. Darth Nihilus would have that kind of power, to hold the Ravager together with his sheer raw power if everything else fails. Though I am not sure for long this application could be sustained.

---

Well, interpretations can vary in relation to any statement (QUALITATIVE); perceived reality.

If you have ever studied research paradigms and their respective ontology (theory of knowledge)...

Positivism = Reality is objective
Interpretivism = Reality is perceived
Constructivism = Reality is constructed
Critical theory = Reality have historical underpinnings
Post-positivism = Reality can be objective and perceived; both aspects may complement each other.

Your perspective can be just as valid as mine.

You may say that that statement allude to Revan as of the MW endgame; valid.

But somebody may say that that statement is not time-sensitive to that extent because the CONTEXT surrounding it is that of Revan's impact on Lord Scourge whom Meetra Surik met in the present. And as I pointed out earlier, Revan's 'command of the Force' had only grown since. Therefore, Meetra's assessment remain valid one way or the other.

smile

While consensus-building is possible, debates are never-ending...

@S_W_LeGenD

Whilst I do think that your theory is interesting, I do believe there is a flaw in it. Nihilus could not control his HUNGER as his hunger starting growing and taking over him. It was his hunger than he couldn't control and not the Force power itself. This is also evident when Sion confronts Nihilus. Nihilus is able to basically ragdoll Sion and move him around in the air in complete control (if you watch the video you gave from 1:53 to 2:05) of the Force.

So basically his hunger took control over him and became like an instinct.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by lDarth Nihilusl
@S_W_LeGenD

Whilst I do think that your theory is interesting, I do believe there is a flaw in it. Nihilus could not control his HUNGER as his hunger starting growing and taking over him. It was his hunger than he couldn't control and not the Force power itself. This is also evident when Sion confronts Nihilus. Nihilus is able to basically ragdoll Sion and move him around in the air in complete control (if you watch the video you gave from 1:53 to 2:05) of the Force.

So basically his hunger took control over him and became like an instinct.
Well,

I am not claiming that Darth Nihilus was almost ZERO in the CONTROL spectrum... LMAO

How could Darth Nihilus be so good in the ALTER spectrum if he was absolutely lacking in the CONTROL spectrum to begin with? Valid consideration, right? smile

Just that Darth Nihilus was not in the league of Revan in the CONTROL spectrum and by extension the 'command of the Force' part. Remember that Revan had surpassed all Jedi in the galaxy as far back as in the days of the Mandalorian Wars - a significant development.

Darth Nihilus was increasingly driven by his HUNGER as he consumed more subjects over time instead of being able to exercise CONTROL - an achievement of Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) on the other hand. Therefore, Darth Nihilus's 'command of the Force' part is SUSPECT in comparison.

Revan would also have managed better if he was in the shoes of Darth Nihilus....

Revan's incredible 'command of the Force' being highlighted in chronological order:

1) Revan's incredible 'command of the Force' is apparent from the following consideration:

Effective interrogation was an art, and Scourge had an innate ability to parse fact from fiction. He knew what questions to ask and in what order; he understood when to ratchet up the intensity and when to pull back. He knew how to use the threat of pain and the reward of mercy to control his subjects.

His advanced techniques, combined with his ability to draw upon the dark side, allowed him to quickly dominate weak minds. Strong-willed subjects were more of a challenge, yet in the end he always got results. Until now.

Interrogating the Jedi had resulted in nothing but frustration and dead ends. His will was strong, as was his command of the Force. Even drugged to the edge of unconsciousness he was able to draw on it to help him endure the pain and the relentless barrage of questions. But there was something else, as well.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

OBSERVATION: Revan was able to demonstrate CONTROL even in the most dire of circumstances.

2) Following revelation is even more telling:

The Jedi's command of and connection to the Force was unlike anything Scourge had sensed in anyone else. Even though Revan was constantly drugged, it was impossible not to sense his strength. After years of studying him, Scourge had come to understand why the Jedi had such a fearsome reputation among the Sith. With men and women like Revan in their ranks, it was easy to see how they had beaten back the Sith invasion a thousand years earlier. And it confirmed what he already suspected: the Emperor's plan to launch another invasion against the Republic at this point in time was tantamount to suicide.

However, it was more than the Jedi's raw power that interested Scourge. Unlike all the instructors at the Academy, or even Nyriss herself, Revan had experienced both the light and dark sides of the Force. He had a unique perspective on its strengths and weaknesses, and Scourge was eager to learn from his experience.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

OBSERVATION: Revan made Lord Scourge realize why invading the Republic was a bad idea....

3) Then comes the Meetra Surik part:

She still wasn't sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan's doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met. And she knew how charismatic he could be. Even though he was a prisoner it wasn't hard to imagine him being in total control of the situation.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

OBSERVATION: Meetra seems to be thinking in the PRESENT-DAY context with Lord Scourge in view.

4) Finally:

He was older and wiser. He understood that the two sides of the Force were more closely intertwined with each other than either the Jedi or the Sith would ever admit. He had learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

THAT was the benchmark he had set in the CONTROL spectrum - virtually impossible standard for any Jedi to live up to given the Jedi philosophy and teachings.

I am looking at the SUM of all parts in this case.

Revan had superior 'command of the Force' in comparison to that of every Force-user who had interacted with Meetra up to the point of her meeting Lord Scourge.

Of-course, the novel does not go out of its way to compare Darth Nihilus and Revan in any context. Revan's superiority is rather IMPLIED through Meetra's angle in it.

lDarth Nihilusl
@S_W_LeGenD

I am not sure why you said all that to be honest or even mentioned Revan here. You were assessing Nihilus's 'Command of the Force' based on his hunger ,which is not related at all. He could not control his hunger. That does not put his 'Command of the Force part in SUSPECT'. Hunger and the force are not the same thing. Lack of control over his hunger does not indicate or suggest a lack of control over the Force. They are entirely different.

To put it simply, assessing Nihilus's Command of the Force through his inability to control his hunger is simply invalid and unrelated.

S_W_LeGenD

lDarth Nihilusl

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