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In America, Black deaths are not a flaw in the system. They are the system

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/03/america-black-deaths-racism?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

From the article

Too many Black people in America are dying.

We die driving our cars. We die playing outside. We die babysitting. We die eating ice cream. We die sleeping in our own beds. We die and die and die at the hands of the police who are sworn to serve and protect us.

Even then, we are not done dying. We die giving birth. We die trying to breathe. We die when doctors under-treat our heart attacks and dismiss our calls for help.

We die because we are overrepresented where it hurts, such as poverty and prisons, and underrepresented where it helps, such as higher education, elected office, and the federal judiciary. We die from many causes, but one stands out from all others: racism.

We die because we are overrepresented where it hurts and underrepresented where it helps

The expendability of Black lives is not a flaw in the system; it is the system. We are meant to die or, at the very least, we are not meant to be protected, to be respected, to be valued, to be considered fully human. That is how racism works, and it has operated efficiently throughout American history.

It is no accident that we disproportionately work in the lowest paying jobs, and live in communities where the water is unsafe to drink and the air unfit to breathe, where polluters ply their trades, where schools are starved of resources, where green space or even a grocery store can be hard to find.

All of this has led us to a new statistic on dying: we are 3.5 times more likely to die of Covid-19 than white people. Although Black people are only 13% of the population, we constitute about twice that percentage of US coronavirus cases. This is not because the coronavirus seeks us by color; it is because we suffer from an underlying condition.

Waits for some Alt-right troll here to try and spin this for whatever foul reason, when deep down we know he only feels shame.

A heady blend of legitimate points and unsubstantiated rubbish.

They always miss out a vital ingredient though.

Personal responsibility.

Originally posted by jaden_2.0
A heady blend of legitimate points and unsubstantiated rubbish.

They always miss out a vital ingredient though.

Personal responsibility. Personal responsibility is often a luxury for those the system does not treat as second class citizens.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Personal responsibility is often a luxury for those the system does not treat as second class citizens.

You're not doing them any favours.

It perpetuates the notion that they can't do anything to improve their circumstances so they shouldn't even bother trying.

Originally posted by jaden_2.0
You're not doing them any favours.

It perpetuates the notion that they can't do anything to improve their circumstances so they shouldn't even bother trying. Equality is not about a level playing field, it is about reducing barriers. A rich idiot can become president, a poor genius is more likely to die of COVID19 especially if he isn't white.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Personal responsibility is often a luxury for those the system does not treat as second class citizens.

I would argue that economics play a larger factor in determing second class citizens than race in the USA (mostly but not the only factor.) Then when we look at some of the information in the opinion piece as Jaden said, some of it is trash and others are valid.

Taking the time to pick them apart isnt worth my time since people defend what they want to believe more then the facts presented time and again on the forums.

I will repeat myself though and say that someone like Andrew Yang presented some of the best solutions to many problems faced by poverty in the USA.

Originally posted by snowdragon
I would argue that economics play a larger factor in determing second class citizens than race in the USA (mostly but not the only factor.) Then when we look at some of the information in the opinion piece as Jaden said, some of it is trash and others are valid.

Taking the time to pick them apart isnt worth my time since people defend what they want to believe more then the facts presented time and again on the forums.

I will repeat myself though and say that someone like Andrew Yang presented some of the best solutions to many problems faced by poverty in the USA. Poverty will always be the greatest determiner, however, black people are more likely to be born into poverty and less likely to be able to get out. For all the outlined reasons.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Poverty will always be the greatest determiner, however, black people are more likely to be born into poverty and less likely to be able to get out. For all the outlined reasons.

Once again pushing past the framing the narrative of said authors opinion piece, I noticed a lack of acknowledging other factors that determine poverty.

If a resonable discussion is to be had then acknowledment of personal/community challenges have to be addressed before anyone can make/provide reasonable solutions that can assist in fixing or reducing poverty.

That discussion isn't likely to be had because it's much harder to admit the problems that can only be fixed at home and no govt oversight will change that.

The discussion about personal responsibility should be had after the structural problems are eliminated, at this point they are a smokescreen to cover for a system that not only disadvantages blacks, but also has gotten worse over the last decades.

Originally posted by Artol
The discussion about personal responsibility should be had after the structural problems are eliminated, at this point they are a smokescreen to cover for a system that not only disadvantages blacks, but also has gotten worse over the last decades.

Oh yeah, why can't both sides be discussed simultaneosly, I've acknowledged poverty as a YUGE problem, now since you want to bring up more variables please share the system that puts blacks at a disadvantage to other "races."

If I were to pick a starting point let's use other minorities and not whites, how about the system that puts blacks at a disadvantage over asians or latinos, let's blow through this smokescreen of systems of oppression together........

That got me thinking too, how about a comparison of first generation black immigrants vs native born back americans to better understand systemic racism.

Originally posted by snowdragon
Oh yeah, why can't both sides be discussed simultaneosly, I've acknowledged poverty as a YUGE problem, now since you want to bring up more variables please share the system that puts blacks at a disadvantage to other "races."

If I were to pick a starting point let's use other minorities and not whites, how about the system that puts blacks at a disadvantage over asians or latinos, let's blow through this smokescreen of systems of oppression together........

That got me thinking too, how about a comparison of first generation black immigrants vs native born back americans to better understand systemic racism.

Blacks have been structurally disadvantaged for generations, an exclusion from the fruits of the wealth of a nation will ripple through generations. Continuous redlining has ensured that they are in structurally underdeveloped parts of cities. Nowadays there are still stereotypes that stand in the way of progress as well, black people (or even just people with black sounding names) are less likely to get callbacks for jobs, because of the economic devastation in black communities there

I agree with you about the economic side as well, btw, poor people of all races are structurally disadvantaged. Just not all in the same way. If the economic side were to be addressed (equally for all races), through unions and regulation, and perhaps UBI, and an extensive welfare state and labor laws, etc. then that would be an enormous help to communities of color, perhaps the biggest leap you can make.

As for Asians, their situation is a bit different, from the beginning of the 20th century the United States had an incredibly racist exclusionary policy that made it basically impossible for Asians to come into the country (after they had built the railroads), and even now Asia being somewhat far away, most of the Asian immigrants are from wealthy or super wealthy backgrounds, or come here for higher education, so naturally their socio-economic situation will be different. I assume you can see that, since economic oppression seems to be your main focus.

Latino people certainly face a lot of issues, but it seems they are in the process that the Italians and Irish have gone through before, i.e. in a few generations they will be defined as white and as American as Apple Pie, a process that black people have been excluded from through a racial othering that has its roots in the philosophy of chattel slavery. But yeah, currently there is a lot of racial issues Latinos face on top of of course being economically disadvantaged (as many of them do not have the same rights as American citizens for example)

*edit* I hadn't seen your edit before, I would presume that differences between immigrant black people and native born ones, are similar to those that I discussed about Asians before, as in, they are likely to be richer than, not limited to structurally deprived areas, perhaps even some aspects of stereotyping may be lesser, if their accents for example make them sound smarter to certain Americans (if they are British, for example). I do believe that there are a fair amount of immigrant black people who have written about their experiences with American racism as well though.

Originally posted by Artol
The discussion about personal responsibility should be had after the structural problems are eliminated, at this point they are a smokescreen to cover for a system that not only disadvantages blacks, but also has gotten worse over the last decades.

That is such a pathetic thing to say.

When segregation was a real thing in this Country, Back households per capita had 2 parent figure for kids.

Before minimum wages was a thing, the average Black were far more profitable then the average white.

Blacks were far more successful when segregation was a thing, a system that held them back

I would say most non-super wealthy people were better off in the 60s, due to neo-liberal changes of the 80s not having taken a hold, and therefore there being a fair amount of stable, well paying jobs that could support a family.

I'm not convinced it has to do with segregation, nor that it would be impossible for Black people to have better lives without segregation (and White people as well, for that matter)

Either way, we do seem to agree that it's not "personal responsibility" that was the culprit, per se.

Artol, you really are a great addition to this forum.

The best way for black families to avoid poverty is to avoid single family heads of households:



https://blackdemographics.com/households/poverty/

There are other factors that contribute and I'm all for a UBI and getting rid of redlining but there are other things to consider that aren't smokescreens or structural that create massive problems for urban poor that generally have to be managed by the communities themselves otherwise oppressive govt forces will have unintended consequences that don't help communites at all (like the war on drugs.)

But for actual ease of conversation the easiest way to avoid poverty is to keep families together, that's it in a nutshell for whites/blacks/asians/latinos etc. One of the things that makes asians so successful is their strong family/community bonds that puts a huge emphasis on education in the USA.

Just as a thought, I think you might have cause and effect mixed up here. Rather than single parent households causing poverty, I would assume single parent households are caused by poverty, the statistics would look just the same, the solutions would be very different.

I am not necessarily against giving incentives to people in 2-parent households, I would be cautious to not exclude alternative arrangements that might be just as beneficial (homosexual parent couples, multiple-partners, community based parenting, etc.) and we need to ensure that it is not a trap for one of the partners, who may start to financially or emotionally rely on the partner, and be vulnerable to abuse, as had been the case for many women in the 50s and 60s. Additionally good support for single parent households, i.e. raising these families out of poverty, could also help alleviate the negative consequences we can see associated with them.

Originally posted by Artol
Just as a thought, I think you might have cause and effect mixed up here. Rather than single parent households causing poverty, I would assume single parent are caused by poverty, the statistics would look just the same, the solutions would be very different.

/B] I've tried pointing exactly this out, maybe half a dozen times here over the years.

As single family households increased black poverty increased (we see this to be true for all families regardless of race.) As I mentioned the unitended consequinces of the benevolent govt welfare programs didn't help:



https://atlantablackstar.com/2014/12/24/ways-war-poverty-destroyed-black-fatherhood/

On the topic of first generation blacks and earnings Pew did a study:



To put that into the perspective overall:



Looks like asians took the gold medal:



https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/04/09/chapter-1-statistical-portrait-of-the-u-s-black-immigrant-population/

Pick through that anyway you'd like, that still shows us that married families = FAR greater success and you can't legislate that, hence gotta start at the home and then look to provide things like UBI etc at the sametime.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
I've tried pointing exactly this out, maybe half a dozen times here over the years.
Yeah, I mean I don't want to underestimate the power that Religions and Socialization played in the 50s. And I'm sure laws that incentivized traditional marriages played their part as well. But I guess I have three main issues with it 1) I don't think its demise was the cause for poverty, 2) it came with a can of worms that rightly and morally we did leave behind and 3) even if we wanted to, we could not return to this mindset at this point in world history, and trying would be incredibly costly.

Originally posted by Artol
Yeah, I mean I don't want to underestimate the power that Religions and Socialization played in the 50s. And I'm sure laws that incentivized traditional marriages played their part as well. But I guess I have three main issues with it 1) I don't think its demise was the cause for poverty, 2) it came with a can of worms that rightly and morally we did leave behind and 3) even if we wanted to, we could not return to this mindset at this point in world history, and trying would be incredibly costly. All good points and without blowing my trumpet things I and others have stated time and time again. A guy called Omega Vision from years ago had a thread starting giving exactly those points. It's like you said a few days ago, the Overton window has shifted so far right, up is now down.

Originally posted by snowdragon
As single family households increased black poverty increased (we see this to be true for all families regardless of race.) As I mentioned the unitended consequinces of the benevolent govt welfare programs didn't help:



https://atlantablackstar.com/2014/12/24/ways-war-poverty-destroyed-black-fatherhood/

On the topic of first generation blacks and earnings Pew did a study:



To put that into the perspective overall:



Looks like asians took the gold medal:



https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/04/09/chapter-1-statistical-portrait-of-the-u-s-black-immigrant-population/

Pick through that anyway you'd like, that still shows us that married families = FAR greater success and you can't legislate that, hence gotta start at the home and then look to provide things like UBI etc at the sametime.

I feel like I preemptively gave explanations for these phenomenon. So just to repeat:

I believe that single parent households and poverty is correlated, not that single parity households directly cause poverty, except in the very trivial way that of course two incomes are bigger than one, but you clearly don't have to be in poverty if you live in a single parent household, so there must be configurations that would lift people in single parent households out of poverty. I would also look at what might be reasons that it has been harder to form two parent households, one explanation may lie in the American incarceration crisis, that puts so many black men into prisons.

As for Immigrant Black incomes, they can alternatively be explained by the slightly smaller structural problems they face than native born Black Americans, the selection of immigrants as higher educated. None of the things you quoted suggest that individual choices rather than socio-economic explanations are a significant part in the outcomes we can observe.

Originally posted by Artol
I feel like I preemptively gave explanations for these phenomenon. So just to repeat:

I believe that single parent households and poverty is correlated, not that single parity households directly cause poverty, except in the very trivial way that of course two incomes are bigger than one, but you clearly don't have to be in poverty if you live in a single parent household, so there must be configurations that would lift people in single parent households out of poverty.

As for Immigrant Black incomes, they can alternatively be explained by the slightly smaller structural problems they face than native born Black Americans, the selection of immigrants as higher educated. None of the things you quoted suggest that individual choices rathe than socio-economic explanations are a significant part in the outcomes we can observe. Bang on!

DUpgoayBPJc

Originally posted by snowdragon
As single family households increased black poverty increased (we see this to be true for all families regardless of race.) As I mentioned the unitended consequinces of the benevolent govt welfare programs didn't help:



https://atlantablackstar.com/2014/12/24/ways-war-poverty-destroyed-black-fatherhood/

On the topic of first generation blacks and earnings Pew did a study:



To put that into the perspective overall:



Looks like asians took the gold medal:



https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/04/09/chapter-1-statistical-portrait-of-the-u-s-black-immigrant-population/

Pick through that anyway you'd like, that still shows us that married families = FAR greater success and you can't legislate that, hence gotta start at the home and then look to provide things like UBI etc at the sametime.

Originally posted by Artol
Yeah, I mean I don't want to underestimate the power that Religions and Socialization played in the 50s. And I'm sure laws that incentivized traditional marriages played their part as well. But I guess I have three main issues with it 1) I don't think its demise was the cause for poverty, 2) it came with a can of worms that rightly and morally we did leave behind and 3) even if we wanted to, we could not return to this mindset at this point in world history, and trying would be incredibly costly.

Both of you should be familiar with my stance on this topic and how buttmad it makes me.

The second worst thing the US did black Americans is the decisions and policies that came after the American Civil Rights Movement. The obvious worst thing is slavery.




What do both of you think of the following two solutions (both must be implemented):

1. A true universal healthcare solution a la Medicare for All (but with affordable copays).

2. A Universal Basic Income that has a base of $1500 a month but can adjust for the government per diem percentages based on locality (the government already has a per diem schedule out there so we don't need to come up with a separate stand of living calculator).



Part of #1 should be free contraceptives, free reproductive education, and decriminalizing drug us (end the Drug War) and treating it like the medical and mental health condition is it.

I've discussed these things with you for many pages in the past, I agree with those positions, I supported Andrew Yang.......compassionate capitalism focusing on humans and not stock market analysis for determing the success of the usa's system of govt and economics.

AND I also want our police to stop being a paramilitary unit in the USA, train to protect and serve first and get rid of alot of the military style weapons and vehicles.

Originally posted by snowdragon
I've discussed these things with you for many pages in the past, I agree with those positions, I supported Andrew Yang.......compassionate capitalism focusing on humans and not stock market analysis for determing the success of the usa's system of govt and economics.

Nice. And, yes, those discussions with you specifically helped me mature my position about Medicare for All such as affordable copays (not "free, no copay healthcare).

Originally posted by dadudemon
Both of you should be familiar with my stance on this topic and how buttmad it makes me.

The second worst thing the US did black Americans is the decisions and policies that came after the American Civil Rights Movement. The obvious worst thing is slavery.




What do both of you think of the following two solutions (both must be implemented):

1. A true universal healthcare solution a la Medicare for All (but with affordable copays).

2. A Universal Basic Income that has a base of $1500 a month but can adjust for the government per diem percentages based on locality (the government already has a per diem schedule out there so we don't need to come up with a separate stand of living calculator).



Part of #1 should be free contraceptives, free reproductive education, and decriminalizing drug us (end the Drug War) and treating it like the medical and mental health condition is it. Originally posted by snowdragon
I've discussed these things with you for many pages in the past, I agree with those positions, I supported Andrew Yang.......compassionate capitalism focusing on humans and not stock market analysis for determing the success of the usa's system of govt and economics.

AND I also want our police to stop being a paramilitary unit in the USA, train to protect and serve first and get rid of alot of the military style weapons and vehicles.

Yeah, I agree with all of these suggestions as well.