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Anakin as of operation Knightfall
R1 Canon only
R2 Legends only

Anakin in both scenarios

Anakin since it's Knightfall.

This Anakin can already easily beat Dooku. Adding Maul to Dooku's team only makes this already lopsided fight even moreso.

What do we really know about canon Anakin honestly? Aside from him being able to defeat Dooku. What makes you think he could take on Maul at the same time as well?

Nah come on. In canon ROTS Anakin isn't even close to peak Vader. He doesn't have the feats or the hype to defeat both of them at the same time. Legends its def arguable though.

Imo legends has a stronger case - Anakin is on the same level of Sidious/Yoda as of rots.

Can we say the same of canon Anakin?

All we really know about canon Anakin's power is what we saw in RotS(and what was detailed a bit more in the junior novel): that he was able to decisively stomp Dooku just by momentarily tapping-into his rage. Adding Maul might change the outcome -- not sure. /shrug

Legends Anakin definitely beats them, though. His accolades make him damn near untouchable.

What does the Jr rots novel say specifically about Anakin? Any quotes on his power?

Not really.

Originally posted by Forschbewithu
What does the Jr rots novel say specifically about Anakin? Any quotes on his power? The Jr novel isn't canon I don't think. But that changes weekly.

The argument for the RotS junior novel being canon is that it was republished in 2014, shortly after the Disney reboot. It also carries the Disney brand:
https://i.imgur.com/PaZGfO2.jpg

What role does the Jr novelization play in this thread?

Just reiterates the obvious: that Anakin clowned Dooku after tapping into his rage for a moment.

Originally posted by Galan007
The argument for the RotS junior novel being canon is that it was republished in 2014, shortly after the Disney reboot. It also carries the Disney brand:
https://i.imgur.com/PaZGfO2.jpg So it is canon officially?

Canon adjacent I think is the term. Canon insofar as they can be overridden by new publications. I feel like the Ahsoka novel also falls into that now with TCW S7.

Yeah, the films are still, generally, *the* canon. Supplementary material cannot outright contradict the films -- it can only expand on them.

I'm sure TCW and Rebels is pretty much on the same level as the films as well.

Definitely.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
That seems like a massive grey area and gets really confusing which is going to lead into huge disagreements.

I don't care either way if they are canon or not but we need an official ruling to be clear.


They are a grey area for sure. If you like things to be black and white then id say ignore them.

However if someone is using a novelisation as supplementary evidence (not their main evidence) then I personally see nothing wrong with that.

well from a pure canon standpoint, we see Anakin casually taking on multiple Jedi via the Temple security holograms so there's that

Originally posted by Darth Thor
They are a grey area for sure. If you like things to be black and white then id say ignore them.

However if someone is using a novelisation as supplementary evidence (not their main evidence) then I personally see nothing wrong with that. The post-2014 adult novels and such are still absolutely canon so long as they do not explicitly contradict the films.

Originally posted by Galan007
The post-2014 adult novels and such are still absolutely canon so long as they do not explicitly contradict the films.

Taking about the old (pre-TFA) movie novelisations.

Not sure if post 2014 reprints of them count anymore.

Gotcha.

I'd *think* the reprints would be canon if they now carry the Disney brand(without the corresponding "Legends" logo), but yeah, I'm honestly not sure where they stand.

Maul is a non factor here
Dooku dies again

Amped Anakin killed Dooku pretty quickly, if he's not being retarded I reckon he can take them both.

Originally posted by Scizard
Amped Anakin killed Dooku pretty quickly, if he's not being retarded I reckon he can take them both. Yep. I believe the Jr novel states that they didn't want to make Dooku mad during the fight to amp him because he was already strong enough.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Yep. I believe the Jr novel states that they didn't want to make Dooku mad during the fight to amp him because he was already strong enough. That was just Kenobi's musing after Anakin opened with his "my powers have doubled" comment.

But it ultimately didn't matter because Anakin went on to rape Dooku.

Originally posted by Sheev
That was just Kenobi's musing after Anakin opened with his "my powers have doubled" comment.

But it ultimately didn't matter because Anakin went on to rape Dooku. Yes we've already established Dark Side rage amped Anakin killed Dooku who wasn't rage amped.

Yes. Dooku was fighting in his capacity as a Sith (like he'd fought everyone else before) and was raped by Anakin in just a few seconds after Anakin momentarily embraced the dark side.

Glad we agree.

Originally posted by Sheev
Yes. Dooku was fighting in his capacity as a Sith (like he'd fought everyone else before) and was raped by Anakin in just a few seconds after Anakin momentarily embraced the dark side.

Glad we agree. Yea I agree Dooku never really tapped into his full Dark Side potential.

He never really used his full ability hence why he never had Sith eyes except once in the Clone Wars but that was a vision or something by Yoda.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Yes we've already established Dark Side rage amped Anakin killed Dooku who wasn't rage amped.


Who said Anakin was rage amped in a way Dooku was not?

Both used the Dark Side, Anakin was simply the more powerful combatant.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Who said Anakin was rage amped in a way Dooku was not?

Both used the Dark Side, Anakin was simply the more powerful combatant. The novel goes into detail on this.

Especially the Jr novel.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
The novel goes into detail on this.

Especially the Jr novel.



He was accessing his anger/rage. But if you are trying to make out that Dooku was at an unfair did advantage due to Anakin using his rage, theres no basis for that.

Anakin simply has access to more rage and innate Force power than Dooku does.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
He was accessing his anger/rage. But if you are trying to make out that Dooku was at an unfair did advantage due to Anakin using his rage, theres no basis for that.

Anakin simply has access to more rage and innate Force power than Dooku does. I don't believe Dooku was tapping into his rage during that fight.

That's it.

Dooku was a Sith and was fighting as a Sith. OF COURSE he was accessing the dark side as he normally would lol.

Likewise, Anakin was not "rage amped". He was just allowing himself to consciously embrace the dark side for a moment, which allowed him to rape Dooku easily.

He's the Chosen one ffs. Obviously his ceiling is WAY higher than Dookus.

^ Yeah plus Anakin seemed to have a ton of innate rage locked up inside him. Hence once he tapped that, Dooku was toast.

You guys are correct Anakin was using pure rage/hatred in that moment.

However Dooku wasn't tapping into his rage/hatred in that fight. Obi-Wan wanted to make sure they didn't make him mad to the point where he fought with anger which in return would make him stronger.

^^ also the thing that confuses me Sidious was telling Dooku to hold back a bit and if things got out of hand or if aniken was too hard etc siduous will sort of intervene etc but not so sure ?

Originally posted by juggernaut74


However Dooku wasn't tapping into his rage/hatred in that fight.


Of course he was. He's a Sith.


Originally posted by juggernaut74
Obi-Wan wanted to make sure they didn't make him mad to the point where he fought with anger which in return would make him stronger.


Quote?

It's from the Jr novel-

In a lull between fierce exchanges, Anakin gave Dooku a frightening smile and said, "My powers have doubled since we last met, Count."
No, Anakin, Obi-Wan thought. Don't taunt him. Anger fed the dark side; they didn't need Dooku's power to be any greater than it already was. "Good," the Count said calmly. "Twice the pride, double the fall."
-----
That was just Kenobi's own personal concern when he didn't have any idea that Anakin himself would also be channeling the dark side during the fight. But as we know- when Anakin used the dark side for a moment at the end, he raped Dooku in seconds.

But yeah, Dooku was a SITH, and was obviously fighting in that capacity (just like he did in every other appearance during TCW.)

Basically, Jedi Anakin was about equal to Dooku, and dark side Anakin >> Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Of course he was. He's a Sith. Originally posted by Sheev
But yeah, Dooku was a SITH, and was obviously fighting in that capacity (just like he did in every other appearance during TCW.) In the junior novel, Anakin also notes- "The power of the dark side flowed around Dooku... The dark side would keep him going as long as he needed." That's why Dooku's stamina, for example, never depleted: he was continuously empowering himself with the dark side during that fight.

Not sure why something so obvious would ever need to be questioned, though..? Like you guys said: Dooku was a Sith, after all -- of course he's going to fully embrace the emotions and whatnot that go along with the title.

But I digress...

Being a Sith don't mean you are fighting with rage and anger all the time like Anakin was at that moment

The novel makes is clear Kenobi was trying to make sure Dooku did not tap into his anger.

Originally posted by juggernaut74

The novel makes is clear Kenobi was trying to make sure Dooku did not tap into his anger.


No that's not what it said at all. He was already tapped into his anger, Obi-Wan just didn't want him to tap into MORE of his anger. But he obviously would have used every tool at his disposal once Anakin was trouncing him.

You don't think the duo surprising him with their style feigning would have made Dooku angry , hateful and fearful (all of which feed the dark side)? You don't think Anakin kicking Dooku in the chest and knocking him off the balcony would have made him even angrier , more hateful, and more fearful? You dont think Dooku would have become even MORE angry, hateful and fearful when Anakin started throttling him? Lol, okay juggy....

Any way you look at it, this was still the SAME Sith Dooku, who was fighting in the SAME way he did throughout TCW, and Anakin raped him in seconds just by using the dark side for a moment.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
No that's not what it said at all. He was already tapped into his anger, Obi-Wan just didn't want him to tap into MORE of his anger. But he obviously would have used every tool at his disposal once Anakin was trouncing him. That's exactly what it says. It says specifically he didn't want to make him stronger than he already was.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
That's exactly what it says. It says specifically he didn't want to make him stronger than he already was.


Yes, but he failed in stopping Dooku accessing his Dark Side Powers.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yes, but he failed in stopping Dooku accessing his Dark Side Powers. Dooku is a Sith he always uses Dark Side powers. The novel also describes Dooku being calm and smiling during the fight so he wasn't using his rage/anger in the same manner Anakin was.

Sidious also mentions that if Anakin didn't use his rage he wouldn't be able to beat Dooku.

This really isn't debateable.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Dooku is a Sith he always uses Dark Side powers.


Given Dark Side powers are only possible via hate, rage, fear, I accept your concession on the matter.


Originally posted by juggernaut74
Sidious also mentions that if Anakin didn't use his rage he wouldn't be able to beat Dooku.


Yeah because Sidious is biased towards the dark side like that.




Originally posted by juggernaut74
This really isn't debateable.


I agree it's not debateable at all that Dark Side Anakin > Dark Side Dooku.

Darkside rage bonered amped Anakin beat Dooku who was calm and collected.

That's what went down.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Darkside rage bonered amped Anakin beat Dooku who was calm and collected.

That's what went down.

cool reckon if Dooku fully tapped in to his rage etc that he would have just bested Aniken ? What reckon as well Galan ?

Originally posted by ozz81
cool reckon if Dooku fully tapped in to his rage etc that he would have just bested Aniken ? What reckon as well Galan ? I doubt it because Anakin was the most powerful Jedi at that point.

Originally posted by ozz81
cool reckon if Dooku fully tapped in to his rage etc that he would have just bested Aniken ? What reckon as well Galan ?

As has already been explained, Dooku is a Sith and he uses the dark side. He's always tapping into those darker emotions like anger and hate.

Originally posted by ares834
As has already been explained, Dooku is a Sith and he uses the dark side. He's always tapping into those darker emotions like anger and hate. It's also been explained that Sith can further amp themselves by by becoming angrier during battle.

And?

Oh boy.

Oh boy what? Seriously, your point is non-existent. "Rage-amped" Anakin is just dark side RotS Anakin. There is no reason to believe he is operating at a far higher level then during Knightfall.

DS Anakin is just flat out far more powerful than Dooku.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Darkside rage bonered amped Anakin beat Dooku who was calm and collected.

That's what went down.
If what you say is true, then Dooku would consider himself to be at an advantage.


Yet despite Dooku's advantage there, Anakin still won. Not bad.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Darkside rage bonered amped Anakin beat Dooku who was calm and collected.

That's what went down.


If Dooku doesn't want to use his rage, that's his own problem.

He was a Dark Sider, but Anakin using the Dark Side was simply too powerful for him. Simple as that.

You seem to be going out of your way to make excuses for Dooku's loss. The same Dooku who couldn't even beat a far less powerful Light Side Anakin in several fights throughout TCW.

I'm not making excuses for Dooku loosing I already said he was going to loose anyways.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
I'm not making excuses for Dooku loosing I already said he was going to loose anyways.





So what's your point about the Rage factor then?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
So what's your point about the Rage factor then? That Dooku wasn't using his rage/ anger in the same manner as Anakin was.

I've said this a few times.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
That Dooku wasn't using his rage/ anger in the same manner as Anakin was.

I've said this a few times.


Meaning what exactly?

That Dooku wasn't using his rage/ anger in the same manner as Anakin was.

I've said this a few times.

So what emotions do you think Dooku...A bonafide Sith Lord...Was using, if not rage/anger?

Originally posted by juggernaut74
That Dooku wasn't using his rage/ anger in the same manner as Anakin was.

I've said this a few times.


So they're different people. Their rage and emotions won't be exactly the same.

So again, what is your point?

Originally posted by Galan007
So what emotions do you think Dooku...A bonafide Sith Lord...Was using, if not rage/anger? I never said he wasn't using them I said he wasn't using them in the same manner Anakin was.

The novel even uses words such as "calm" and "smiling" describing Dooku during the fight.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
So they're different people. Their rage and emotions won't be exactly the same.

So again, what is your point? That Dooku wasn't using his rage/ anger in the same manner as Anakin was.

I've said this a few times.

Originally posted by juggernaut74


The novel even uses words such as "calm" and "smiling" describing Dooku during the fight.


I mean Palpatine laughs his head off while fighting. Anakin tends to get more pissed during a fight. Everyone's different. But they all use the dark side.

So again, Anakin wasn't at any particular advantage, except that he's just more powerful.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I mean Palpatine laughs his head off while fighting. Anakin tends to get more pissed during a fight. Everyone's different. But they all use the dark side.

So again, Anakin wasn't at any particular advantage, except that he's just more powerful. Once again the novel makes it clear that Anakin was using pure rage at that moment. The words used to describe Dooku are calm and smiling at that moment.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Once again the novel makes it clear that Anakin was using pure rage at that moment. The words used to describe Dooku are calm and smiling at that moment.



Meaning what?

It means whatever you want it to mean.

I already explained what it means.

https://i20.servimg.com/u/f20/17/76/23/63/smarts11.jpg

I only deal in canon material.

Originally posted by Galan007
So what emotions do you think Dooku...A bonafide Sith Lord...Was using, if not rage/anger? Lust.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Lust.

Well, this has taken quite the turn.

Team stomps if they go all out.

Maul dies as soon as he clashes with Anakin
Anakin trashes Dooku again

Anakin wins

Wouldn't mind seeing a poll for this tbh.

Dooku>>Maul>Anakin

Anakin defeated Dooku. How is he below Him? And how is Maul above Anakin when he has difficulty with Ahsoka?