Palpatine's plan

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Dominis
So I was having a discussion with someone on youtube, and I realize that a lot of people didn't enjoy Rise of Skywalker's Palpatine because they feel that he wasn't a master manipulator and that his plan in the movie made no sense. But to me, it made perfect sense.

Palpatine always planned to use Rey's body as a vessel. He only told Kylo Ren that he wanted her dead, as he knew that if he convinced Ren that Rey was a threat to him, then Ren would want to use Rey to help him destroy Sidious. Sidious fed Kylo Ren the information about Rey being his granddaughter and having her parents killed so that Ren would use that information to seduce Rey into joining him to kill Sidious together.

Up until Leia brought Ben back to the light, Kylo Ren was unknowingly doing exactly as Sidious wanted. That's why Palpatine told General Pride that Leia had disrupted his plans, because he counted on Ren and Rey coming to Exogol together, and from there would would possess Rey and force Ren to be his new apprentice, which is what Kylo Ren was being groomed for for all those years: to be the heir apparent to Lord Vader.

Palpatine was just using reverse psychology on Kylo Ren.

NewGuy01
ok

Dominis
Originally posted by NewGuy01
ok


Just thought you should know. smile

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Dominis
Worst, you say?????

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yes. TLJ is the best sequel trilogy film.

Dominis
I watched ROS all the way through like 5 times, and I really enjoyed it each time. A lot of flaws, for sure, but I don't think Palpatine was one of them.

And oh yeah, you think so? What did you think about Luke?

Eli Vanto
Originally posted by Dominis
So I was having a discussion with someone on youtube, and I realize that a lot of people didn't enjoy Rise of Skywalker's Palpatine because they feel that he wasn't a master manipulator and that his plan in the movie made no sense. But to me, it made perfect sense.

Palpatine always planned to use Rey's body as a vessel. He only told Kylo Ren that he wanted her dead, as he knew that if he convinced Ren that Rey was a threat to him, then Ren would want to use Rey to help him destroy Sidious. Sidious fed Kylo Ren the information about Rey being his granddaughter and having her parents killed so that Ren would use that information to seduce Rey into joining him to kill Sidious together.

Up until Leia brought Ben back to the light, Kylo Ren was unknowingly doing exactly as Sidious wanted. That's why Palpatine told General Pride that Leia had disrupted his plans, because he counted on Ren and Rey coming to Exogol together, and from there would would possess Rey and force Ren to be his new apprentice, which is what Kylo Ren was being groomed for for all those years: to be the heir apparent to Lord Vader.

Palpatine was just using reverse psychology on Kylo Ren. Ya this makes sense. Just wish it would have been explained better in the movie itself. I hate having to connect the dots with headcanon.

Dominis
Yeah, other than Palpatine declaring his true intentions to Rey when she went to Exogol, it wasn't made too clear. But between Palpatine revealing that he wanted Rey alive to live inside her and the novelization saying that Palpatine allowed his son to live so that he could one day provide a strong enough offspring for Sidious to inhabit, I think the only logical interpretation was that Palpatine was just using reverse psychology on Kylo Ren when saying he wanted her dead.

What makes it confusing, is how Kylo Ren was seemingly about to kill her just before Leia intervened, but maybe he wasn't. Perhaps he was just going to injure her enough so that she couldn't continue to resist him, IDK. But I think it's pretty clear that Palpatine himself never wanted her dead.

As for Kylo Ren being groomed to fill Darth Vader's place, I think that has been established throughout the sequels, on top of some of the expanded material, such as the ROS Visual Dictionary.

Galan007
I like your interpretation, and it's a good way to help reconcile some of the jumbled mess that is RoS... But it's still muddled to me because Palpatine was actually pressing Kylo to kill Rey a few different times in the film.

First at the beginning: "Kill the girl. End the Jedi. And become what your grandfather Vader could not."

Then once more about midway through: "The Jedi apprentice still lives. Perhaps you have betrayed me? Do not make me turn my fleet against you... KILL HER!"

*The second quote in particular is essentially Palpatine issuing a threat: ie. "If you don't kill Rey ASAP, I will destroy you." So within the confines of the film itself, it did seem like Palpatine's original intent was for Kylo to actually kill Rey(even though he seemingly needed Rey to transfer his essence into.)

Yes, I still believe there was a biological element that was required for the transfer to be successful(which the novel also alludes to), otherwise Palpatine would've just had Kylo strike him down at the beginning of the film, transferred his essence into Kylo, and been done with it. So from that perspective, pushing Kylo to kill Rey at all makes no sense whatsoever, given that Rey was the only "suitable vessel" in the galaxy. It would have fit the story a lot better if Palpatine had ordered Kylo to bring Rey before him alive(like he did with Luke), but I digress...

relentless1
Originally posted by Galan007
I like your interpretation, and it's a good way to help reconcile some of the jumbled mess that is RoS... But it's still muddled to me because Palpatine was actually pressing Kylo to kill Rey a few different times in the film.

First at the beginning: "Kill the girl. End the Jedi. And become what your grandfather Vader could not."

Then once more about midway through: "The Jedi apprentice still lives. Perhaps you have betrayed me? Do not make me turn my fleet against you... KILL HER!"

*The second quote in particular is essentially Palpatine issuing a threat: ie. "If you don't kill Rey ASAP, I will destroy you." So within the confines of the film itself, it did seem like Palpatine's original intent was for Kylo to actually kill Rey(even though he seemingly needed Rey to transfer his essence into.)

Yes, I still believe there was a biological element that was required for the transfer to be successful(which the novel also alludes to), otherwise Palpatine would've just had Kylo strike him down at the beginning of the film, transferred his essence into Kylo, and been done with it. So from that perspective, pushing Kylo to kill Rey at all makes no sense whatsoever, given that Rey was the only "suitable vessel" in the galaxy. It would have fit the story a lot better if Palpatine had ordered Kylo to bring Rey before him alive(like he did with Luke), but I digress...

Sidious did the same thing in Phantom Menace though, he kept pushing for the Queen to sign the treaty and all that but in reality he could care less about that, he really just wanted the Chancellorship so there IS precedence for him pushing hard for something that he doesn't actually want

The_Tempest
Originally posted by relentless1
Sidious did the same thing in Phantom Menace though, he kept pushing for the Queen to sign the treaty and all that but in reality he could care less about that, he really just wanted the Chancellorship so there IS precedence for him pushing hard for something that he doesn't actually want

thumb up

That's an interesting observation. In TPM, the treaty to legitimize the Trade Federation occupation of Naboo seemed to be little more than a set of car keys Sidious was dangling in front of Gunray to distract him:

"Hey, you guys should totes blockade and occupy Naboo to pressure the Republic into rescinding the taxes levies on your trade routes. If the Queen signs, it'll keep the authorities and the Jedi from fvcking your shit up. You better get her to sign it, at all costs."

So Gunray thinks the treaty is the objective and so he relentlessly pursues Amidala at all costs and puts the screws to her people, which is what Sidious really needs to push Amidala and the Republic into ousting Valorum and a sympathy vote to usher in Palpatine as his replacement.

Convoluted and Machiavellian, but that's Sheev for you.

TROS could've made the muddied plot line a bit clearer, but it seems that Sidious's ultimate goal was to simply push and test Rey emotionally and physically using Kylo.

When he later tells Pryde that the Princess of Alderaan has disrupted his plans, I thought it was because Leia triggered Kylo's redemption. After this thread, I'm thinking it was because Leia's redemption triggered Rey into healing Ben and thus stopping her from giving into her rage on Kef Bir.

Zenwolf
Sorry that was perhaps a bit spotlight pointing.

Anyway it was quite clear that Palps did all of Naboo just to give the current Chancellor the boot.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Sorry that was perhaps a bit spotlight pointing.

Anyway it was quite clear that Palps did all of Naboo just to give the current Chancellor the boot.

It was quite clear that Sheev's goal in TPM was to become Chancellor; exactly how the various pieces served that purpose, specifically the treaty, wasn't always clear.

Eli Vanto
Originally posted by relentless1
Sidious did the same thing in Phantom Menace though, he kept pushing for the Queen to sign the treaty and all that but in reality he could care less about that, he really just wanted the Chancellorship so there IS precedence for him pushing hard for something that he doesn't actually want It's one thing to push for a treaty that wouldn't have mattered in the long run. It's another thing to push Kylo to kill Rey when she was apparently the only person he could transfer his essence into.

Darth Thor
Luke was handled much much worse than Palpatine.

There was nothing particularly wrong with Palpatine's characterisation, in that Palpatine in the ST was still essentially Palpatine. But to take away his ROTJ "death" of him unable to see Vader's love for his son being his downfall and replace that with just shoot lightning back at his face... Ughh

Psychotron
Originally posted by Dominis
Palpatine always planned to use Rey's body as a vessel.

The problem here is that he told Rey this. Why would she strike him down if she knew that doing so would allow him to possess her? Makes no sense. He should have just pissed her like he did Luke in ROTJ.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Psychotron
The problem here is that he told Rey this. Why would she strike him down if she knew that doing so would allow him to possess her? Makes no sense. He should have just pissed her like he did Luke in ROTJ.

He did the same thing to look in ROTJ, right as Luke was poised to kill Vader: "Good! Good... your hate has made you powerful. Now fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side."

Dominis
Originally posted by Galan007
I like your interpretation, and it's a good way to help reconcile some of the jumbled mess that is RoS... But it's still muddled to me because Palpatine was actually pressing Kylo to kill Rey a few different times in the film.

First at the beginning: "Kill the girl. End the Jedi. And become what your grandfather Vader could not."

Then once more about midway through: "The Jedi apprentice still lives. Perhaps you have betrayed me? Do not make me turn my fleet against you... KILL HER!"

*The second quote in particular is essentially Palpatine issuing a threat: ie. "If you don't kill Rey ASAP, I will destroy you." So within the confines of the film itself, it did seem like Palpatine's original intent was for Kylo to actually kill Rey(even though he seemingly needed Rey to transfer his essence into.)

Yes, I still believe there was a biological element that was required for the transfer to be successful(which the novel also alludes to), otherwise Palpatine would've just had Kylo strike him down at the beginning of the film, transferred his essence into Kylo, and been done with it. So from that perspective, pushing Kylo to kill Rey at all makes no sense whatsoever, given that Rey was the only "suitable vessel" in the galaxy. It would have fit the story a lot better if Palpatine had ordered Kylo to bring Rey before him alive(like he did with Luke), but I digress...


All that urgency Palpatine was placing on Ren to kill Rey was most likely just to make it more believable to Ren that he truly viewed Rey as a threat that needed to be killed right away. Palpatine knew that if Ren believed he feared her that much, Ren would use the information Palpatine provided him to seduce Rey to the dark side so that he could use her against Palpatine, which would have just played right into Sidious's hands.

I mean, the only other alternative would be to assume that Palpatine was lying to Rey when he told her that he never wanted her dead, but Considering how, up until he discovered the dyad thing, Rey was his only option for a new vessel, it makes much more sense that he was just playing Kylo Ren.

Dominis
Originally posted by The_Tempest
He did the same thing to look in ROTJ, right as Luke was poised to kill Vader: "Good! Good... your hate has made you powerful. Now fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side."


Yeah or "strike me down and your journey towards the dark side will be complete"

No different than:

"strike me down and my spirit will pass onto you"

Galan007
Originally posted by Dominis
All that urgency Palpatine was placing on Ren to kill Rey was most likely just to make it more believable to Ren that he truly viewed Rey as a threat that needed to be killed right away. Palpatine knew that if Ren believed he feared her that much, Ren would use the information Palpatine provided him to seduce Rey to the dark side so that he could use her against Palpatine, which would have just played right into Sidious's hands.

I mean, the only other alternative would be to assume that Palpatine was lying to Rey when he told her that he never wanted her dead, but Considering how, up until he discovered the dyad thing, Rey was his only option for a new vessel, it makes much more sense that he was just playing Kylo Ren. I mean, this is probably the best way to consolidate things, so I'm not really disagreeing.

I'm just saying that repeatedly pushing Kylo to kill Rey --and even threatening Kylo with death if he didn't do so immediately-- still seems like a very illogical risk for Palpatine to take, imo. After all, if Kylo had followed his orders, and actually killed Rey(which it *seemed* like he was about to do during their fight on the Death Star wreckage, until Leia intervened), Palpatine would have been left without a suitable vessel to transfer his essence into, and without a dyad to heal his existing body with.

So in the grand scheme of things, it would have made a lot more sense for Palpatine to have ordered Kylo to bring Rey to him alive, imo. Why take irrational risks if you don't absolutely need to?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Galan007
I mean, this is probably the best way to consolidate things, so I'm not really disagreeing.

I'm just saying that repeatedly pushing Kylo to kill Rey --and even threatening Kylo with death if he didn't do so immediately-- still seems like a very illogical risk for Palpatine to take, imo. After all, if Kylo had followed his orders, and actually killed Rey(which it *seemed* like he was about to do during their fight on the Death Star wreckage, until Leia intervened), Palpatine would have been left without a suitable vessel to transfer his essence into, and without a dyad to heal his existing body with.

So in the grand scheme of things, it would have made a lot more sense for Palpatine to have ordered Kylo to bring Rey to him alive, imo. Why take irrational risks if you don't absolutely need to?

Agreed here.

Plenty of TROS can be handwaved or reconciled on careful consideration, but Sheev's usual shtick of "pit intended candidate against useful placeholder in order to test their power/resolve" is a suboptimal strategy here since he's not, in this case, looking for an apprentice he can comfortably live without but a recepticle for his spiritual essence that he literally needs to survive.

Dominis
Originally posted by Galan007
I mean, this is probably the best way to consolidate things, so I'm not really disagreeing.

I'm just saying that repeatedly pushing Kylo to kill Rey --and even threatening Kylo with death if he didn't do so immediately-- still seems like a very illogical risk for Palpatine to take, imo. After all, if Kylo had followed his orders, and actually killed Rey(which it *seemed* like he was about to do during their fight on the Death Star wreckage, until Leia intervened), Palpatine would have been left without a suitable vessel to transfer his essence into, and without a dyad to heal his existing body with.

So in the grand scheme of things, it would have made a lot more sense for Palpatine to have ordered Kylo to bring Rey to him alive, imo. Why take irrational risks if you don't absolutely need to?


My guess is that Palpatine just didn't trust Kylo Ren, and believed that the quickest/easiest and probably the only way he could get Kylo Ren to do what he wanted in terms of Rey, would be to order Kylo Ren to do the exact opposite by making Ren believe that he feared Rey. After all, Palpatine's threats only made Kylo Ren pursue Rey and try harder to turn her to the dark side, it's not what made Ren seemingly attempt to kill her. And if Palpatine could read Vader's intentions, and Snoke Kylo Ren's, then I'm sure Palpatine could read Kylo Ren's.

But yeah, the story could have been written so that Palpatine ordered Ren to bring Rey to him alive, but making Kylo Ren into a simple 'yes man' would have done no justice to his character arc. They were trying to establish that as of TROS, Kylo Ren was an independent boss (or so he thought), with the message being that when you do selfish things, you're really still serving evil(Palpatine representing the embodiment of evil in SW) more than yourself, and you just end up f*cking yourself over in the end. The problem is that the story didn't show this message all the way through with Kylo Ren because he was redeemed before he brought Rey to Palpatine, it's just implied that that would have been the case when Sidious tells Rey that he actually never wanted her dead and that he actually wanted her to kill him in anger all along.

I do think that as of the final product, that is what they were intending to convey, but with the lack of planning and all the rushing and reediting, it made things a mess.

Dominis
My overall point, without delving too deep into interpretation, is that I don't think there is a problem with Palpatine's characterization or plan in TROS. A simple line from the novel like "for Palpatine knew that Ren would do anything to try and prevent him from having Rey and retaking the galaxy, even if it meant killing her... yet Ren was the only person who could bring Rey to him yadayadayada" could have cleared up any confusion as to why Palpatine felt that the only way to get Ren to bring Rey to him was by pretending to fear her and want her dead (or hell, even by having Palpatine imply it in the movie some way). But even without such a line, I still believe that it's the most logical assumption.

Did Palpatine overdo it? I mean maybe...but the novel does say he appeared to be a lot weaker as of the time he communicated with Ren telepathically, so maybe he was even more desperate.

Personally, I think the real issue was with them not knowing where and how they were going to conclude Kylo Ren's story or how they were going to connect it with the overall narrative.

Psychotron
Originally posted by The_Tempest
He did the same thing to look in ROTJ, right as Luke was poised to kill Vader: "Good! Good... your hate has made you powerful. Now fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side."

That's different though. He was saying "Kill your father and you can take his place as the number 2 guy in the Empire". Here Palpy is outright saying he will possess Rey if she kills him. I doubt Rey wants to be possessed by a 100-year-old man.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Psychotron
That's different though. He was saying "Kill your father and you can take his place as the number 2 guy in the Empire". Here Palpy is outright saying he will possess Rey if she kills him. I doubt Rey wants to be possessed by a 100-year-old man.

It's true that the scenario isn't literally identical, become my dark side servant vs. become my dark side meatsuit, but fundamentally the Emperor's error is the same.

In both situations, the Emperor attempts to coerce a victim into doing something that is clearly antithetical to the victim's goals and well-being.

Luke lashed out at Vader not out of ambition, but righteous fury. He stood on the precipice of the dark side and rather than let the situation play out, the Emperor arrogantly demands that Luke murder his father in cold blood and take his place as the Emperor's servant and possession. (Recall Sidious's line to Luke earlier in the meeting: "It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now... mine."wink

Not much of a sales pitch and it prompts Luke to reconsider at the critical moment.

Likewise, the Emperor overplays his hands by arrogantly demanding Rey cut him down in anger so he can outright possess her. If he'd simply kept his mouth shut, odds are she might well have done that. Instead, he shatters the illusion by telling her what will happen if she follows through with it and then tries to blackmail her with her friends' lives hanging in the balance.

If anything, you might be able to make the argument that he was less foolish with Rey simply because he thought he had the means of compelling her obedience (telling her if she kills him she could save the Resistance fleet from certain death by becoming their leader) regardless.

Still, both scenarios are arrogant and cartoonish, which is the Emperor to a Tee.

Eli Vanto
Originally posted by Dominis
Did Palpatine overdo it? I mean maybe...but the novel does say he appeared to be a lot weaker as of the time he communicated with Ren telepathically, so maybe he was even more desperate. Which is all the more reason for him to not keep prompting Kylo to murder Rey. His body was breaking down and he had no other clone bodies that we know of that were prepared to receive his essence. He needed Rey as soon as possible.

Psychotron
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's true that the scenario isn't literally identical, become my dark side servant vs. become my dark side meatsuit, but fundamentally the Emperor's error is the same.

In both situations, the Emperor attempts to coerce a victim into doing something that is clearly antithetical to the victim's goals and well-being.

Luke lashed out at Vader not out of ambition, but righteous fury. He stood on the precipice of the dark side and rather than let the situation play out, the Emperor arrogantly demands that Luke murder his father in cold blood and take his place as the Emperor's servant and possession. (Recall Sidious's line to Luke earlier in the meeting: "It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now... mine."wink

Not much of a sales pitch and it prompts Luke to reconsider at the critical moment.

Likewise, the Emperor overplays his hands by arrogantly demanding Rey cut him down in anger so he can outright possess her. If he'd simply kept his mouth shut, odds are she might well have done that. Instead, he shatters the illusion by telling her what will happen if she follows through with it and then tries to blackmail her with her friends' lives hanging in the balance.

If anything, you might be able to make the argument that he was less foolish with Rey simply because he thought he had the means of compelling her obedience (telling her if she kills him she could save the Resistance fleet from certain death by becoming their leader) regardless.

Still, both scenarios are arrogant and cartoonish, which is the Emperor to a Tee.

The thing is that Sidious already managed to goad Luke into strking him in anger. He was already half way on the dark side. So I can see him getting cocky with Luke. There was no reason to tell Rey what his true plan was. He should have just goaded her into strking him like Luke did (this time with no Vader to intervine) and his plan would have worked. It's just bad writing.

Dominis
Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Which is all the more reason for him to not keep prompting Kylo to murder Rey. His body was breaking down and he had no other clone bodies that we know of that were prepared to receive his essence. He needed Rey as soon as possible.


I mean, yeah, Palpatine could have ordered Ren to bring Rey to him, and they corrupt her together. But Kylo Ren has no reason to trust or want to serve Palpatine, and Palpatine knows this. So if he orders Kylo Ren to kill Rey, he knows Ren would want to do the opposite, thinking he would be outsmarting Palpatine, when it's really the other way around.

It seems Kylo Ren was just pretending to trust Palpatine (which Palps can sense), but doesn't actually believe that Palpatine is going to just hand over his empire, which is why he thinks he needs Rey to help him take it by force, and that is what Palpatine is counting on.

Threatening Kylo Ren served two purposes... one, to make Kylo Ren believe that he fears the possibility of Ren using Rey against him, hence the line "perhaps you have betrayed me," so that Ren would want to do it even more... and two, to speed up the process because he is dying and desperate.

Eli Vanto
Dont know man. I get where you're coming from but that side of things still doesn't make sense to me.

Dominis
Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Dont know man. I get where you're coming from but that side of things still doesn't make sense to me.


Yeah, it is confusing.

But remember, Palpatine didn't have the same influence over Ren and Rey that he had over Vader and Luke in ROTJ. Palpatine had Vader right under his direct control. And out of Luke's compassion for Vader and desperate want to redeem his father, he had control over Luke.

Eli Vanto
I think the promise of absolute military power to rule the galaxy would have been enough though.

Something like; "Bring me the girl, and the might of the Final order shall be yours!"

That's why the "kill her at once!" angle still seems really dumb to me.

Dominis
Originally posted by Eli Vanto
I think the promise of absolute military power to rule the galaxy would have been enough though.

But that's assuming Ren fully believed Palpatine would just hand over his military power, and considering how Ren seemingly believed he needed to take it from Palpatine by force using Rey, I'm guessing he didn't.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Something like; "Bring me the girl, and the might of the Final order shall be yours!"

If Palpatine is aware that Kylo Ren doesn't trust him, how could he trust Ren to bring Rey to him alive?

Kylo Ren would be on to Palpatine, knowing Palpatine needs/wants Rey for a reason, and would probably do anything to prevent that.

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