Shazam vs Thragg

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Adam Grimes
Shazam (Post-Crisis/Rebirth)

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11121/111213873/4662460-3376923200-42252.jpg

Vs

Grand Regent Thragg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11111/111113706/6076085-1168951646-image..jpeg

No bfr. Who wins?

Galan007
Now that you've read Invincible, I'm curious to hear how you think Thragg compares...

Adam Grimes
Mmh it's difficult. I would put Nolan/Mark at the top of the low herald tier... Thragg and BB being solid mid heralds by extrapolation.

Galan007
...But Thragg >> Nolan = mean Supreme.

shifty

MrMind
Billy gets all his feats from 1985, I'm going with him

Wonder Man

Adam Grimes
Originally posted by Galan007
...But Thragg >> Nolan = mean Supreme.

shifty Lol what? They fought?? :0

Galan007
Yeah, they fought in Larsen's Supreme series, which even Kirkman considers canon.

vin

MrMind
Mean Supreme also shown to be superior to Moore Supreme and Suprema in the same series, who should be both above omni man

It's a mess

Galan007
Thragg >> Nolan = mean Supreme >> Moore Supreme ~/> Suprema(who can lift universe-weight.)

haw-som

MrMind
shifty

Adam Grimes
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, they fought in Larsen's Supreme series, which even Kirkman considers canon.

vin Mm okay, now I have to check Supreme out. Sigh... *unzips*

carver9
Love Cap Marvel but Thragg kills him.

lawest9
Originally posted by carver9
Love Cap Marvel but Thragg kills him. Based off of what? Btw I appreciate you're referring to him as CAPTAIN MARVEL.

Galan007
Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Mm okay, now I have to check Supreme out. Sigh... *unzips* Just Larsen's run... It's only a few issues.

Sin I AM
So Billy gets PC and rebirth feats?

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by carver9
Love Cap Marvel but Thragg kills him.


GAMMITE LIES!!!

cdtm
Originally posted by Galan007
...But Thragg >> Nolan = mean Supreme.

shifty


PIS.


Gladiator never got mutilated by a sun like Thragg did, that's for sure.

Galan007
Thor and Sentry don't seem to do well against sun-heat either, tbf.
herbhappy

Adam Grimes
Low-heralds don't tend to. thumb up

Adam Grimes
Originally posted by Sin I AM
So Billy gets PC and rebirth feats? Yup.

zopzop
Originally posted by carver9
Love Cap Marvel but Thragg kills him.
Captain Marvel kills Thragg and uses his corpse to beat Hulk to death.

MrMind
Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Low-heralds don't tend to. thumb up

Very proud of my boy right now

Sin I AM
Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Yup.

Then it's his fight. That Billy was considered Supe level

Enzeru
What is this non-sense? Shazam solos the entire Invincible universe. Massive power level difference between those two universes. Or would Shazam die upon colliding with a planet? Or would he burn to death, if he fought at the surface of the sun?

MrMind
Uhhhh wut....These two are on very similar level

deathslash
Originally posted by Enzeru
What is this non-sense? Shazam solos the entire Invincible universe. Massive power level difference between those two universes. Or would Shazam die upon colliding with a planet? Or would he burn to death, if he fought at the surface of the sun? it's honestly incredible how there are still people that ignore such huge chunks of context from Invincible.

Enzeru
Originally posted by deathslash

it's honestly incredible how there are still people that ignore such huge chunks of context from Invincible.

What context?

It took three top tier Viltrumites to destroy one planet. And even then they needed the help of Space Racer, whose overpowered gun first had to hit the planet and destabilize its core. If that hadn't been done, the Viltrumites would have died upon impact.

Now I don't know about you, but I don't see any +mid herald dying upon colliding with a planet.

Any high herald solos the entire Invincible universe. If you believe otherwise, then you have never read Invincible comics. And I've read them all. Awesome art, cool characters, absolutely amazing fight scenes... but in terms of power the most powerful of them are all low heralds at the very best (and I'm being very generous here).

MrMind
You are low balling image universe as a whole

Supreme beats the shit out of Sentrythumb up

deathslash
Originally posted by Enzeru
What context?

It took three top tier Viltrumites to destroy one planet. And even then they needed the help of Space Racer, whose overpowered gun first had to hit the planet and destabilize its core. If that hadn't been done, the Viltrumites would have died upon impact.

Now I don't know about you, but I don't see any +mid herald dying upon colliding with a planet.
1. I get really tired of people saying that they needed all of the help to pull off that feat. Thaddus was going entirely off of guesswork. The destruction of a planet is never once mentioned before this fight and Thaddus clearly calls for Allen and Tech-Jacket to help him (which is immediately proven to be a gross overestimation seeing as how Omni-man, Mark and Thaddus pulled it off on their own not even two seconds later).

2.Thaedus said that they could die, not that they would.

I shouldn't have to explain the importance of proper reading comprehension, but just in case you're missing the very clear difference between these two things:


"N-no. But the guy that had never once blown up a planet and was significantly weaker than Mark and Nolan said that they would need five people (possibly six if Oliver hadn't been taken out) in order to bust one planet and was immediately proven wrong."

Please tell me that that isn't actually your argument.
Originally posted by Enzeru

Any high herald solos the entire Invincible universe. If you believe otherwise, then you have never read Invincible comics. And I've read them all. Awesome art, cool characters, absolutely amazing fight scenes... but in terms of power the most powerful of them are all low heralds at the very best (and I'm being very generous here). you clearly didn't pay any real attention then. Earlier you brought up the Sun as an example of them being weak in spite of the fact that it's a written in weakness:
https://m.imgur.com/a/txkb3c6
That's like saying that Superman is weaker than humans because a lifeless glowing rock can kill him. I guess Wonder Woman is also weaker than Colossus because bullets can hurt her.

Also, massive kek at "any high herald soloing". We've seen what happens when acknowledged high herald fight Viltrumites. They're roughly even. Omni-man broke even with Supreme and Mark literally shrugged off punches from Solar Man:
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_medium/14/147508/6319434-invincible%20feat%20durability%20%2853%29.jpg
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/14/147508/4706835-98.png
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/14/147508/4706836-99.png
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/14/147508/4706837-100.png
who is stated by Word of God to be around Supreme's level:
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/14/147508/6319436-solar%20man.png

cdtm
Solar Man? laughing out loud


Gasp and awe, Mark destroyed Solar Man.



You know, the high herald everyone is talking about.



Supreme vs Omni Man was clear cut PIS. Gladiator also fought evenly with Supreme, and he flies through planets and suns without taking any damage at all, something no Viltrimite is capable of. Not even Thragg.

deathslash
Originally posted by cdtm
Solar Man? laughing out loud


Gasp and awe, Mark destroyed Solar Man.



You know, the high herald everyone is talking about.



Supreme vs Omni Man was clear cut PIS. Gladiator also fought evenly with Supreme, and he flies through planets and suns without taking any damage at all, something no Viltrimite is capable of. Not even Thragg. ....Erik Larsen stated that Solar Man is Supreme's peer. Meanwhile, Kirkman himself referenced the Supreme fight. Just because you don't like it, that doesn't make it PIS.

Also, while we're on the subject, can you show me where it's stated or proven that no Viltrumite can fly through a planet unscathed?

cdtm
Because its PIS, makes it PIS.


I hate Supreme and love Invincible (And have read the entire series), yet can't ignore the fact they simply don't have the feats to back up those crossovers.


May as well argue Wolverine is above Lobo tier. Or Wonder Woman can't take a little lightning. Or Thor can give Superman a close fight, as if someone who spent the last decade bending over can have a remotely good showing against one of the premier high heralds.


Crossover feats are banned for a reason.

deathslash
Originally posted by cdtm
Because its PIS, makes it PIS.


I hate Supreme and love Invincible (And have read the entire series), yet can't ignore the fact they simply don't have the feats to back up those crossovers.


May as well argue Wolverine is above Lobo tier. Or Wonder Woman can't take a little lightning. Or Thor can give Superman a close fight, as if someone who spent the last decade bending over can have a remotely good showing against one of the premier high heralds.


Crossover feats are banned for a reason. translation: " I-It's PIS. Trust me. C-crossover feats are banned. It doesn't matter that this feat is canon per Word of God, it's not canon. Dud trust me."

Adam Grimes
That scan is not saying the sun is a weakness for Viltrumites, though.

cdtm
Originally posted by Adam Grimes
That scan is not saying the sun is a weakness for Viltrumites, though.


Is that directed at me?


No, a sun was never stated as a weakness. Which means Thragg and Mark burnt all of their skin off the old fashioned way.


As opposed to Gladiator, who swims through suns for sport (As Thor used to do, in days of old)

Adam Grimes
Nope, I was addressing Deathslash.

Originally posted by deathslash
Also, while we're on the subject, can you show me where it's stated or proven that no Viltrumite can fly through a planet unscathed? Kinda asking him to prove a negative, isn't it?

deathslash
Originally posted by Adam Grimes
That scan is not saying the sun is a weakness for Viltrumites, though. it says that extreme heat over long periods of time can destabalize their molecules and are potentially dangerous. This is why Mark managed to shrug off a nuke but not an extended fight on the surface of the sun.

Enzeru
Originally posted by deathslash

1. I get really tired of people saying that they needed all of the help to pull off that feat. Thaddus was going entirely off of guesswork. The destruction of a planet is never once mentioned before this fight and Thaddus clearly calls for Allen and Tech-Jacket to help him (which is immediately proven to be a gross overestimation seeing as how Omni-man, Mark and Thaddus pulled it off on their own not even two seconds later).

On their own, huh?

https://i.imgur.com/r3ogzHO.png
https://i.imgur.com/r3ogzHO.png

We see the laser beam flying towards the planet to hit and stabilize it with the three Viltrumites following it closely and trying to time their attack. Why time it? So that they wouldn't die upon impact, if the core manages to restabilize itself.

All of that aren't just some random words like you try to sell it in a second. All of that is there for the plot. To increase the tension and the sakes. And it establishes the power level of these characters. If these characters fly at their max speed and collide with a planet, they most likely die.

Originally posted by deathslash

2.Thaedus said that they could die, not that they would.

I mean, you're being biased and you're trying to completely negate any ill effects, if they don't manage to bust through the planet. You try to make it sound like they just wouldn't die, because there is a "could". To me it sounds as if dying is the worst case scenario, with them shattering all of the bones in their bodies being the luckiest outcome for them. Don't be biased.

I shouldn't have to explain the importance of proper reading comprehension, but just in case you're missing the very clear difference between these two things:

Originally posted by deathslash

you clearly didn't pay any real attention then. Earlier you brought up the Sun as an
That's like saying that Superman is weaker than humans because a lifeless glowing rock can kill him. I guess Wonder Woman is also weaker than Colossus because bullets can hurt her.

So sun is a Viltrumites weakness... and then also blunt force trauma as we've seen it many times through out their run. Viltrumites rip, tear and bleed far, far, far faster than any average +mid / high herald level character in comics. What Viltrumites have going on for them is a great healing factor.

Again, all to increase the tension and drama in Invincible. But that automatically establishes the power level of these characters. They are not as durable as your average Superman character. And if you honestly want to suggest that Invincible punching Superman would inflict the same type of damage he was inflicting to characters like Conquest and Thragg, then... you clearly need to read some more comics, mate.

Originally posted by deathslash

Also, massive kek at "any high herald soloing". We've seen what happens when acknowledged high herald fight Viltrumites. They're roughly even. Omni-man broke even with Supreme and Mark literally shrugged off punches from Solar Man:


Savage Dragon performed as well as Invincible against Solar Man. Is Savage Dragon now also a high herald?

Just because one characters doesn't get immediately split in half by another character, doesn't mean that they're on the same level. It means that the other character is holding back. Solar Man was holding back as much against Savage Dragon as he was holding back against Invincible.

LOL @ comparing Omni-Man to Supreme. That's like comparing Superman to Venom during their crossover:

https://i.imgur.com/d8uepGm.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/d8uepGm.jpg

Originally posted by MrMind
You are low balling image universe as a whole

Supreme beats the shit out of Sentrythumb up

And you shut your pesky little hooker mouth or else.

CosmicComet
I didnt know Invincible was that weak a verse. They seemed higher than that.

That crossover with Supreme means essentially nothing.

Adam Grimes
Originally posted by deathslash
it says that extreme heat over long periods of time can destabalize their molecules and are potentially dangerous. ... which is a perfect description of what would also happen to a human if he ever were near the sun.

Philosophía
You know, I can see both sides of this discussion. I could never properly rank the Invincible Universe in my mind.

On the one hand, their feats themselves are not on the level of the upper echelon in Marvel/DC -- and I'm talking about strength/durability . This might be because you have one writer for the whole run -- and while that mitigates low showings , it also doesn't really allow for high ones since there's no space for the pendulum to swing under one writer. Their capabilities/feats are consistent. It is also quite Dragon Ball Z-ish, in that more powerful viltrumites just straight up roflstomp weaker ones, while that is very rare in Marvel/DC.

On the other hand, the Supreme showing does exist. And no matter what you think of continuity/revisions and whatnot, what matters is that in the same arc, Supreme casually destroyed a planet/moon:

https://i.ibb.co/3CzK3sW/qezJEqu.jpg

And Omni Man was shown as >= that same Supreme:

https://i.ibb.co/98r4ZfL/nLYXVoh.jpg https://i.ibb.co/fMk38mq/9IbuV5t.jpg https://i.ibb.co/5F2092c/VMxTao0.jpg https://i.ibb.co/Mpf7hzn/VZqLGCU.jpg

Is it consistent with their other showings? I'd say if you look at solely the feats no -- but it gives a very good glimpse on how, once the Viltrumites are plucked out of their corner and start facing other characters, they're not getting dismembered. That is one rare occurrence of them being written by somebody else, for perspective.

Since I made the comparison with the manga, back to the discussion at hand, Thragg basically treats Omni-Man similar to how 1st form Freeza treated Nail.

So....yeah.

But, for all of the Viltrumites relative showings, I think Captain Marvel scaling off of Black Adam works in his favor, too. And with the recent "I'm also a sorcerer, lol" showings ... I'd lean towards him. Maybe. Not sure tbh, as I said initially, Invincible is just a Universe that has more in common with DBZ than Marvel/DC so it's hard to really compare.

MrMind
Phil, where would you rank top High heralds in marvel and DC if they exist in dbz

For me the best of them (surfer, hal etc) can have a close fight with z fighters at super Saiyan 2

Philosophía
I have no idea, honestly. It works under different rules. As in -- Hulk/Thing is competitive in Marvel. If they were in Dragon Ball, given the difference in 'power level', it'd probably be like buff Roshi fighting USSJ Trunks.

You can argue that even Piccolo in Dragon Ball is mid-herald. And then also argue that Freeza is, too. Even though, inside that Universe, they're ridiculously far apart.

Galan007
Originally posted by CosmicComet
That crossover with Supreme means essentially nothing. Why so?

In the letters section of Invincible #99, Kirkman himself stated that the Nolan/Supreme crossover was canon:
https://i.imgur.com/pRKrvOY.jpg

Originally posted by Phil
Is it consistent with their other showings? I'd say if you look at solely the feats no -- but it gives a very good glimpse on how, once the Viltrumites are plucked out of their corner and start facing other characters, they're not getting dismembered. That is one rare occurrence of them being written by somebody else, for perspective. It's also interesting because the only visible 'damage' Nolan sustained(despite a bloodlusted Supreme repeatedly striking him), was a small amount of blood flinging out of his mouth toward the beginning. Aside from that, he appeared completely uninjured(physically.) And for what it's worth, Nolan also soaked Supreme's HV just fine during that fight.

MrMind
according to Phil, Supreme's HV is garbage compared to Superman's shifty

CosmicComet
I'm aware its canon.

From the perspective of using it to scale to older more Silver Ageish level feats past Supreme runs have shown us, I consider it dishonest.

(Not saying you are doing that)

No one would believe Universal level Nolan and Mark. Let alone universal+ level Thragg.

For me they top out at moon/planetoid level.

For me I see it more as retconning Supreme to be much weaker than he actually was, lowering him down to mid herald level. That's what I mean by the crossover being meaningless.

Pre-retcon Supreme is now a thing. Bless.

Galan007
Originally posted by MrMind
according to Phil, Supreme's HV is garbage compared to Superman's shifty In terms of feats, it definitely is. wink

Mainly brought that up because the notion that high-end Viltrumites are 'squishy' has always been silly to me.

Kirkman loves writing graphic, gore-filled fights that you'd almost never see in Marvel/DC... But that doesn't mean any random character can just walk up to a noteworthy Viltrumite and rip them apart. As mentioned, a physical barrage from Supreme only managed to draw a minuscule amount of blood from Nolan.

Galan007
Originally posted by CosmicComet
I'm aware its canon.

From the perspective of using it to scale to older more Silver Ageish level feats past Supreme runs have shown us, I consider it dishonest.

(Not saying you are doing that)

No one would believe Universal level Nolan and Mark. Let alone universal+ level Thragg.

For me they top out at moon/planetoid level.

For me I see it more as retconning Supreme to be much weaker than he actually was, lowering him down to mid herald level. That's what I mean by the crossover being meaningless.

Pre-retcon Supreme is now a thing. Bless. I don't see it that way, because Larsen consistently wrote 'mean' Supreme at his most powerful levels ever... So I have a hard time believing that Supreme was intentionally watered down just for his fight with Nolan.

I think that's just the level Larsen believes Nolan(and by proxy, the other high-end Viltrumites) can operate on. /shrug

carver9
Just want to point out that if an EQUAL hurt you, that doesn't make you squishy (lol), that means that the person is strong enough to damage you. Black Adam and Superman have damaged Captain Marvel, that doesn't make him weak, that means that these beings are powerful enough to damage him. Even break bones.

smile

MrMind
what about the thing and hulk, carver?

CosmicComet
Originally posted by Galan007
I don't see it that way, because Larsen consistently wrote 'mean' Supreme at his most powerful levels ever... So I have a hard time believing that Supreme was intentionally watered down just for his fight with Nolan.

I think that's just the level Larsen believes Nolan(and by proxy, the other high-end Viltrumites) can operate on. /shrug

"Narratively' he may have been the most powerful Supreme ever, but definitely not feat wise.

And in the end he ends up being relative to a verse where planet busting is considered extremely impressive, so much so that in an earlier arc it had to be done with prep and three way effort. And fighting on the mere surface of the sun is life threatening.

So essentially the Invincible-verse drags the average of Supreme down greatly by making his 90s and early 2000s feats unusable.

Philosophía
Imo, Kirkman just sees the S-tiers at those levels. So if he wrote Supreme in his Invincible-verse, he'd be a peer to Viltrumites.

Or, let me put it this way -- somebody like Icon http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t665645.html] in his own series makes Viltrumites look like they're cosmic beings -- but once he meets Superman, he is suddenly 'not quite, but close'. Once he joins the Justice League, he can suddenly do reasonably well against a Sun-Eater. Icon was the strongest guy in his Universe, so once he comes to DC, he is near-the strongest guy in all Universes. It's all about "stature". And I guess we're not far off from each other, given "Narratively" seems close to what I'm saying.

Like, for example, if Viltrumites would suddenly be in DC, you'd see Thragg beat the utter shit out of the Justice League, only for Superman to come in and put him out with increased effort.

Then again, that's just imo.

On the forum, purely on displayed capabilities, it matters how much weight you put into the Supreme showing. In a pure feat-war, they can't win.

CosmicComet
I'm fine with Viltrumites scaling to Supreme, but only the version with the feats explicitly seen. E.g. Nolan fighting the Supreme that busted the planetoid/moon/whatever in question. That can still work with the Invincible setting without outright contradiction; celestial bodies can vary greatly in size and density afterall.

Giving them the backlog of star to universe level scaling that Supreme has in his lore backlog would break the setting and atmosphere Kirkman established for the Invincible series however.

Supreme becoming connected to the larger more prolific Invincible-verse tethers him and lowers him. Essentially a retcon. The same way Icon is retconned to 'roughly' everyday Clark levels, whereas in his original universe you might argue that Iron Man could beat him feats wise.

In both cases the crossovers at least happened officially and canonically.

But I'm not willing to give Viltrumites blanket high herald status just because its possible writers that never handled them might see them that way. Until they bust a star or fight and beat someone who did bust a star in the same arc I cant imagine that they can.

Galan007
Originally posted by CosmicComet
"Narratively' he may have been the most powerful Supreme ever, but definitely not feat wise.

And in the end he ends up being relative to a verse where planet busting is considered extremely impressive, so much so that in an earlier arc it had to be done with prep and three way effort. And fighting on the mere surface of the sun is life threatening.

So essentially the Invincible-verse drags the average of Supreme down greatly by making his 90s and early 2000s feats unusable. I mean, it was outright stated that mean Supreme > ALL Supremes. Larsen's intent in that respect was abundantly clear, hence why all the other Supremes feared him(and said intent was made even clearer when he had mean Supreme beat the dogshit out of Suprema just before fighting Nolan.)

I'm not sure why the planet-busting thing keeps getting mentioned? Is it because Space Racer destabilized its core first? Dunno. But either way, Thragg >>> Mark/Nolan/Thadeus(as seen when he easily raped them all afterward), so meh. /shrug

As for the star thing: aside from being a little sweaty, Thragg and Mark were pretty much fine while fighting on its surface(they even tanked a flare) -- it was only when they entered the interior of the star that they began burning. But again: it's not like herald-level characters in DC/Marvel haven't been hurt or killed by sun-level heat, so I don't understand why that makes the Viltrumites look weak? As mentioned above, I'm just not an advocate for the whole "Viltrumites have shit durability" argument... Really all I was getting at.

Nolan's fight with Supreme isn't a low showing for Supreme -- it's a high showing for Nolan, imo. Regardless, a single fight certainly doesn't drag-down Supreme's entire character history.

Galan007

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