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How does this go down?

you are so biased you don't even know

I haven't read a lot of Carnage, but I would think this is a mismatch. Why did you make it?

Erm.... MMH stomps

It would be interesting for a few panels. It will always end with domination by MMH though.

Why? What makes J'onn superior?

Everything.

Originally posted by Stoic
Why? What makes J'onn superior?

https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/3srcxp/respect_martian_manhunter_pre52/

Stoic, if carter is voting for the DC character, odds are if you tried to make an even match up, you ****ed up.

Originally posted by carver9
Everything.

Nothing.



Cletus eats him.

MM is just on another level. Iirc, he was able to successfully attack the mind of mxyzptlk (he was caged tbf)

He gets carnage to rip himself in half.

Originally posted by Booya_69
MM is just on another level. Iirc, he was able to successfully attack the mind of mxyzptlk (he was caged tbf)

He gets carnage to rip himself in half.

Are you sure that Carnage can be controlled? What about the idea of Carnage using the symbiote to infect J'onn? I also thought that Carnage was far superior to Venom in terms of just about everything? A berserk Venom was able to go toe to toe with classic Juggernaut, and Thor. Just wanted to mention that to those that aren't able to see why I made this thread.

There was a time that many people thought that Aquaman would beat Carnage with ease as well. They tried comparing Carnage to Deathstroke, while forgetting how difficult it actually is to defeat a symbiote.

J'onn fought and destroyed Fernus. Every single atom was destroyed with his HV.

Carnage stomps, easily.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
J'onn fought and destroyed Fernus. Every single atom was destroyed with his HV.

What happens when Carnage symbiote takes over MMH?
He took over Surfer.

When he's intangible?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
When he's intangible?

Cause he isn't always intangible. Surfer can phase also. Plus the symbiote attaches to the hosts mind.

Via physical tendrils.

Which won't work when he is intangible.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Via physical tendrils.

Which won't work when he is intangible.

Problem is for MM to exert physical dominance and attacks, Its not THAT easy to use intangibility alongside shape shifting to drop Carnage. And ever since the Darkhold, fire has been a null factor against Carnage in general. Even a combination of flame and Weapon H failed against Carnage.

All Carnage has to do is just get a piece of symbiote on MM and it's over.

The symbiote died upon re-entry, despite the immunity.

https://i.postimg.cc/MHbK7C3j/RCO015-1582338212.jpg

Fernus was also immune to fire. Hell, he was MADE of fire.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/api/image/original/2650288-21.png

MMH killed him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The symbiote died upon re-entry, despite the immunity.

https://i.postimg.cc/MHbK7C3j/RCO015-1582338212.jpg

Fernus was also immune to fire. Hell, he was MADE of fire.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/api/image/original/2650288-21.png

MMH killed him.

This was after the Attack by the Poisons, where Carnage was infected with an engineered symbiote that allowed a Poison to infect it. After the queen was defeated, almost every poison was killed or weakened beyond recovery.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Carnage stomps, easily. damn just proved himself even more biased than carter.

Also, If we're considering Absolute Carnage as permanent (since Cletus died, so it's a bit unclear whether it's an amp or not), He also takes the fight. Not only are his base abilities improved, he also possesses the strength and durability to go toe-to-toe with Weapon H, Ghost Riders and a venomized Hulk. The stolen codexes also provide a variety of other host abilities at a lower level (or temporary), which would allow him to withstand and infect Martian Manhunter.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
This was after the Attack by the Poisons, where Carnage was infected with an engineered symbiote that allowed a Poison to infect it. After the queen was defeated, almost every poison was killed or weakened beyond recovery.

After the Darkhold, he was also roasted on that stone by the lizard toad guys.

And he was dying.

https://i.postimg.cc/4dXChRyy/RCO021-1472658258.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
After the Darkhold, he was also roasted on that stone by the lizard toad guys.

And he was dying.

https://i.postimg.cc/4dXChRyy/RCO021-1472658258.jpg

So from what Ive found out, after the initial Darkhold ritual, it wasnt complete fully enough, which is why Carnage went to Jakarta to complete the ritual.
Despite the Darkhold upgrades, armamnets with Chthonic symbols can weaken and trap Carnage:
https://i.postimg.cc/LqXnVLS8/wek.jpg

The same beings that captured Carnage with relative ease and tied him up to be burnt.....
https://i.postimg.cc/HrWxpXV9/thesn.jpg

are also Chthonic halflings, who poessess weapons that can hurt him. So ITS fair enough to assume that he was bound by Chthonic restraints, essentially weakening him

https://i.postimg.cc/T5RwpDtx/ajw.jpg

So even if we ignore the Chthonic bindings and what not, after the chains were broken, Carnage stood in the middle of the altar burning, perfectly fine, despite the slow roasting (for how long?) he had gone through.
https://i.postimg.cc/67n5c0Sw/reas.jpg

Actually, he was fine because the Darkhold book was close to him.

Which needless to say, he doesn't have.

Martian Manhunter does have the firepower to boost his HV, but that may only affect regular Carnage, and even then that relies on Carnage staying in one place.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Actually, he was fine because the Darkhold book was close to him.

Which needless to say, he doesn't have.

The book had zero influence in terms of protection for Carnage. It did act as a map of sorts (and got him into trouble).
And As for Fernus, part of the problem he could have combusted easily was because GL flooded the area and kept them both underwater. Fernus appears doused here, which allowed MM to regain control (hang on a bit)

MM had no effect on Fernus, and wouldve failed..

https://i.postimg.cc/vcsjxv7f/hern.jpg

Hadnt GL flooded the area and doused Fernus....
https://i.postimg.cc/HJVP1vHD/hadne.jpg

which allowed MM to regain control.....

https://i.postimg.cc/GTJXxZPY/scghs.jpg

and finish the job underwater, while Fernus was virtually not burning.
So comparing a doused and weakened Fernus against a fire immune Carnage isn't EXACTLY equal.
https://i.postimg.cc/QV3GcshF/buthj.jpg

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
The book had zero influence in terms of protection for Carnage. It did act as a map of sorts (and got him into trouble).
So Carnage goes from dying, to being OK? That sounds like PIS.


You misunderstand my point.

Fernus is A-OK with heat and flame. Immune to it, some might say.

But MMH still took him apart - tore him down to molecules (not atoms as I said before - my bad).

Flames/heat does not hurt Fernus - he in fact reproduces with psychic suffering PLUS heat.

So that would be long enough for a forum win. The Darkhold Curse is specifically mentioned in my scan, so extreme temps are still capable of hurting him. After all, AFTER the Poison Queen was broken, Poison Wolverine was still around:
https://i.postimg.cc/v8nZWN4m/RCO021-1587763526.jpg

Poison Wolverine isn't shown to be this little weakling.

MMH has the defense to not be hurt by Carnage (intangibility, plus speed if you want to use that). He can shift his mind around his body to evade control. He can heal from blood splatters.

He also has the offense to hurt Carnage (his HV, not to mention BFR into space).

He wins this, handily.

Edit: This post:
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil

and finish the job underwater, while Fernus was virtually not burning.
So comparing a doused and weakened Fernus against a fire immune Carnage isn't EXACTLY equal.


Actually helps me. MMH's Martian Vision should AMP Fernus, more than anything - it is providing heat and fire underwater. But it's so powerful (even under water) that it tears Fernus down to molecules.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

So Carnage goes from dying, to being OK? That sounds like PIS.


You misunderstand my point.

Fernus is A-OK with heat and flame. Immune to it, some might say.

But MMH still took him apart - tore him down to molecules (not atoms as I said before - my bad).

Flames/heat does not hurt Fernus - he in fact reproduces with psychic suffering PLUS heat.

So that would be long enough for a forum win. The Darkhold Curse is specifically mentioned in my scan, so extreme temps are still capable of hurting him. After all, AFTER the Poison Queen was broken, Poison Wolverine was still around:
https://i.postimg.cc/v8nZWN4m/RCO021-1587763526.jpg

Poison Wolverine isn't shown to be this little weakling.

MMH has the defense to not be hurt by Carnage (intangibility, plus speed if you want to use that). He can shift his mind around his body to evade control. He can heal from blood splatters.

He also has the offense to hurt Carnage (his HV, not to mention BFR into space).

He wins this, handily.

Edit: This post:


Actually helps me. MMH's Martian Vision should AMP Fernus, more than anything - it is providing heat and fire underwater. But it's so powerful (even under water) that it tears Fernus down to molecules.

lol what?

In Venomized, Carnage was bonded to a variant of the symbiote that made Poison takeover much better. So Carnage as a Poison ended up different compared to the others.
https://i.postimg.cc/CBg4vwh1/veny.jpg

As for the crash landing, it can be seen clearly here how the Poison Connection withdrawal has taken its toll
https://i.postimg.cc/Z9r8vX8h/hesj.jpg

his human body was already affected when what was left of the symbiote intervened to rescue him.....
https://i.postimg.cc/k6sWf8Y1/hen.jpg

Seen here, it took a combination of burning upon re-entry and the crash landing to effectively weaken the symbiote and kill Cletus.
So even if MM attempts BFR, he will have to latch onto Carnage, and that will allow the symbiote to grab and possess him. Carnage has also gone up against and matched powerhouse foes such as Weapon H and Venomized Hulk (Absolute Carnage) and Toxin (post Darkhold) and walked off the winner. As far as terms of physicals, while MM has strength and speed, Carnage has durability and weaponry coupled with savagery:
https://i.postimg.cc/zVVTFyC7/hen.jpg

MMs best assets would be his telepathy (which may have varying effects) and invulnerability). Regular Carnage I can see MM dominating physically as well to a certain degree, but Absolute Carnage is a full on monster for that to be attempted.


MMs heat vision hurt Fernus underwater, where Fernus is CLEARLY doused. Sure it was powerful enough to burn down Fernus, but he had to douse him underwater in order to do the job. Fernus was living fire....until the flood cancelled that out. Until GL blindsided him with a mini tsunami, MM was virtually powerless against Fernus. And with Fernus doused and weakened underwater, it makes it easier for MM to take down Fernus. And while MMs heat vision could amp Fernus, underwater with so much water to keep cooling Fernus down? That shouldn't be a major issue.
Further proof of Carnage's fire immunity? He took a faceful of hellfire and was only blinded temporarily. No harmful effect:
https://i.postimg.cc/qhFvJvNB/leks.jpg

MMs only weapons at this point are intangibility and telepathy, but EVEN though he can recover from lethal Carnage injuries, he can be KOd and a symbiote possession can drop him.

Wait.
So your argument is that underwater, the source of heat - Martian Vision - is destroying a weakened Fernus.....

Even though heat amps Fernus?

It's like someone taking a sun lamp (or similar) and defeating Superman with it whilst he's surrounded by darkness lol.

The fact that his Martian Vision is so powerful it destroys someone who enjoys heat, speaks volumes.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wait.
So your argument is that underwater, the source of heat - Martian Vision - is destroying a weakened Fernus.....

Even though heat amps Fernus?

It's like someone taking a sun lamp (or similar) and defeating Superman with it whilst he's surrounded by darkness lol.

The fact that his Martian Vision is so powerful it destroys someone who enjoys heat, speaks volumes.

Yeah no, General Darkness doesnt weaken Superman at all (unless its like modified darkness or soul sapping etc....). Its simply the absense of light.

Unless its Hellfire or Greek Fire, fire won't burn underwater. Thats simply the nature of water over fire (there's an entire thermodynamics lesson on this, but we'll leave the technical parts out).

The argument is not whether Jonn's HV is weak no. The argument here is HOW effective would that be on Carnage. If MM did that stunt on Fernus on dry land, THEN I'd be impressed. But underwater, where Fernus' fire is negated?

Seen here, the JLs plan was to take away the fire. Fernus is unable to power up to the flaming beast he was as well underwater, leaving MM free to drop him. Even if MM was hitting him with HV, water depowered him before, so how is it going to allow him to get back to form? Especially when he is now underwater and surrounded by it? :....
https://i.postimg.cc/gLxYXFCz/uyh.jpg

Because he's hitting Fernus who isn't bothered and actually enjoys heat, with heat.

And destroying him.

Fernus WAS weakened by the water, but hitting him with heat would negate that.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because he's hitting Fernus who isn't bothered and actually enjoys heat, with heat.

And destroying him.

Fernus WAS weakened by the water, but hitting him with heat would negate that.

How much heat to negate that factor? And surrounded by how much water? Not enough to show that Fernus was vaporized without water negating him.

Exactly. That's EXACTLY what I'm driving at. The sheer amount of heat overrode his amping off it, and overloaded him to the point he was torn down to molecules.

THAT'S how powerful his Martian Vision is, and THAT'S why he can hurt Carnage, if not outright destroy him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Exactly. That's EXACTLY what I'm driving at. The sheer amount of heat overrode his amping off it, and overloaded him to the point he was torn down to molecules.

THAT'S how powerful his Martian Vision is, and THAT'S why he can hurt Carnage, if not outright destroy him.

Yeah, WITH water there preventing Fernus from powering up. If Fernus overloaded, we would have seen him go in flames (and when I mean flames, I mean we would have clearly seen him powering up) before overloading, indicating that he was being powered by said flames. If MM had done this to Fernus outside water, then that would have been impressive as it outright shows him overloading a fire being. But being underwater which removed the fire from Fernus and weakened him? THAT won't help out much.
Carnage has withstood hellfire, roasting, incendiaries and explosives. Guy has walked right through them while getting attacked.

Fernus was overloaded by Martian Manhunter while he was underwater and denied fire. MM is burning him, and the water keeps cooling him, so that DOESN'T help Fernus at all.
Is MMs heat vision powerful? Relatively yeah. But NOTHING to indicate it can stop a fire immune fighter like Carnage. Hurt him maybe, but effectively enough, not so much.

Cool.

So we agree that it can hurt him, thanks.

That's offense sorted.

Moving on -

Intangibility.

J'onn is one of those characters who just can't win.


Didn't he get his ass raped by an angry mob of non-prepped, normal human villagers?


KMC used to have an unofficial disrespect thread dedicated to the character.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Cool.

So we agree that it can hurt him, thanks.

That's offense sorted.

Moving on -

Intangibility.

Thats a big maybe

for Absolute Carnage, the guy got set on fire by an RPG....
https://i.postimg.cc/JDrZsLbH/wiek.jpg

Divebombed by Weapon H.....
https://i.postimg.cc/LghPV3QH/diejk.jpg

and set on fire with pyrokinetics (or thermal grenades)
https://i.postimg.cc/7JCCzYbh/cnsj.jpg

And still walked out perfectly fine.
https://i.postimg.cc/G8t90hFK/stks.jpg

Who was the host then?

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Thats a big maybe

for Absolute Carnage, the guy got set on fire by an RPG....
https://i.postimg.cc/JDrZsLbH/wiek.jpg

Divebombed by Weapon H.....
https://i.postimg.cc/LghPV3QH/diejk.jpg

and set on fire with pyrokinetics (or thermal grenades)
https://i.postimg.cc/7JCCzYbh/cnsj.jpg

And still walked out perfectly fine.
https://i.postimg.cc/G8t90hFK/stks.jpg

So MMH's HV is equal to RPGs and grenades?

Feat-wise...?

It's probably as dangerous as a common flashlight, perhaps less so

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Feat-wise...?

It's probably as dangerous as a common flashlight, perhaps less so

Tell that to WW3 Black Adam.
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/6/67407/1683419-ba1.jpg

If it hurts HIM......

Black Adam was also hurt by nobodies such as Hawkman and Hourman

Hawkman sure, but Hourman?

Stoic lost all respect. Seriously

Current Carnage isn't Grendel Carnage

Originally posted by h1a8
Stoic lost all respect. Seriously

Why's that? For asking a question? Carnage is obviously beast, which is exactly why he should be bumped up to a higher tier. You on the other hand are a troll that lost complete respect several years ago.