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Luke from the ST, reconnected with the force.

vs.

Snoke and ROS Kylo.

Luke, imo.

Luke

How awesome would it be if we saw this fight? And they had Luke winning until he has to go sacrifice himself.

Luke. Kylo was garbage and Luke could easily dispatch him with the Force the same way Snoke did Rey in TLJ and Sidious did Kylo. Then it's just Luke vs Snoke and we know that Snoke was afraid of Luke.

I doubt Luke could easily just dispatch Kylo with the force, especially if this is ROS Kylo. Palpatine was far stronger than even Luke.

Maybe if it’s TLJ Kylo.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
I doubt Luke could easily just dispatch Kylo with the force, especially if this is ROS Kylo. Palpatine was far stronger than even Luke.

Maybe if it’s TLJ Kylo.


We dont know there was any significant difference between TLJ and ROS Kylo. Unless im missing something.

But I wasnt very impressed by ROS Kylo and how he dealt with the KOR.

Because he whooped the KOR? Joke

Reasons? Pulling on the Ship against Rey?

Really I dont know. His most bad ass moment was still his opening in TFA: the freezing of Poe and the blaster bolt IMHO.

I really liked the opening scene in ROS too.

I noticed a huge difference in his demeanor. He had his emotions under control which makes a huge difference for force users.

His fight against the KoR was a huge improvement over his performance against the Praetorian Guards too.

Then again, if Luke was right about Snoke being more or less equal to RotJ Palps... then sure, he most likely would be able to "spam" it.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
I really liked the opening scene in ROS too.

I noticed a huge difference in his demeanor. He had his emotions under control which makes a huge difference for force users.

His fight against the KoR was a huge improvement over his performance against the Praetorian Guards too.


Anything in the novel about his clarity/focus?

He still seemed frustrated to me. And he did turn back in the same film. So nothing concrete as far as I can gather.



Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Then again, if Luke was right about Snoke being more or less equal to RotJ Palps... then sure, he most likely would be able to "spam" it.


That idea has been thoroughly debunked in the Snoke vs Dooku thread.

Its simply not possible Snoke could be THAT powerful, and still just a lackey.

And tbf, Snoke could 'only' be Dooku-level, and still spam the absolute shit out of FL.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
I doubt Luke could easily just dispatch Kylo with the force, especially if this is ROS Kylo. Palpatine was far stronger than even Luke.

Maybe if it’s TLJ Kylo.

Why not? Kylo is sub-Rey level in his Force powers if we use the ship feat since Rey was fighting the ship's engines AND Kylo's Force pull. She can also conjure Force lightning, unlike Kylo, who dedicated himself to the Dark side and still couldn't learn it, and she mastered the healing power before him too.

I'll agree that Luke isn't as strong as ROS Sidious, but Snoke was a couple of tiers above Kylo and Rey in TLJ and it's heavily implied that Luke > Snoke.

Originally posted by Galan007
And tbf, Snoke could 'only' be Dooku-level, and still spam the absolute shit out of FL.

What he has shown on screen was a mere Legends Shadowtrooper level.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Why not? Kylo is sub-Rey level in his Force powers if we use the ship feat since Rey was fighting the ship's engines AND Kylo's Force pull. She can also conjure Force lightning, unlike Kylo, who dedicated himself to the Dark side and still couldn't learn it, and she mastered the healing power before him too.

I'll agree that Luke isn't as strong as ROS Sidious, but Snoke was a couple of tiers above Kylo and Rey in TLJ and it's heavily implied that Luke > Snoke.


I doubt Movie Rey was above Kylo in any way (sans calling on all the Jedi nonsense).

The lightning was supposed to show she was related to Palpatine (as stupid as that is logically).

^ The lightsaber pulling apart was probably to do with that Dyad nonesense. It applies when they are fighting together, so presumably applies when fighting each other as well.

Also being fair, Snoke caught Kylo off guard with the lightning, and Snokes guards rushed to his defence before Kylo could attempt to fight back.

Im sure Snoke was more powerful, but just saying cant assume too much from that blast.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ The lightsaber pulling apart was probably to do with that Dyad nonesense. It applies when they are fighting together, so presumably applies when fighting each other as well.

Also being fair, Snoke caught Kylo off guard with the lightning, and Snokes guards rushed to his defence before Kylo could attempt to fight back.

Im sure Snoke was more powerful, but just saying cant assume too much from that blast.

Then it should apply when Rey was getting dominated by Snoke too, because Kylo was right there. In fact, aren't they stronger when they're next to each other? If Snoke can do that to dyad!Rey then he can do it to Kylo too. If Luke really is > Snoke there's no reason to think he wouldn't be able to rag doll Kylo.

I don't see how he can be caught off guard when Kylo was the one who stood up angrily, which made Snoke put him in his place. There's no way Kylo didn't think his dark side master would allow that without a response.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Then it should apply when Rey was getting dominated by Snoke too, because Kylo was right there. In fact, aren't they stronger when they're next to each other? If Snoke can do that to dyad!Rey then he can do it to Kylo too. If Luke really is > Snoke there's no reason to think he wouldn't be able to rag doll Kylo.

I don't see how he can be caught off guard when Kylo was the one who stood up angrily, which made Snoke put him in his place. There's no way Kylo didn't think his dark side master would allow that without a response.


She still had no training. So no way to know for sure if she could defend as well as Kylo. I personally doubt it. I think she can reflect Kylos moves when with him, but he wasnt doing anything, and I dont recall her ever defending against that kind of attack previously.

The fact that Kylo had to get up and didnt have his Saber out to defend against the lightning is why he wasnt ready. And the way his guards rushed to his defence gave Kylo no opportunity to fight back.

^ Will obviously apply when fighting each other as well. Hence how she was able to resist and turn back his mind probe, and compete with and turn the tide in her favour in their first Saber fight prior to her training with Luke.

This is all pure speculation. The only thing we know of for sure is that Rey and Kylo are stronger when they're near each other.

ESB era Sidious dominated Vader with the Force and we know that Kylo is no Vader. There's no reason to think Grandmaster Luke won't be able to rag doll him at this stage. Kylo has absolutely no feats to suggest he can defend an attack from someone who is Sidious+ in Force powers and a superior duelist on top of it. Luke will do to Kylo what Sidious did to the B team.

.

Originally posted by Psychotron
This is all pure speculation. The only thing we know of for sure is that Rey and Kylo are stronger when they're near each other.


Its also speculation that Kylo would have been ragdolled as easily by Snoke as Rey was.

Kylo isnt Rey. Hes far more dangerous an opponent according to Luke in the TLJ comic. Hes been trained for over a decade, and he outright beat Rey in TROS.

But yeah I agree Luke would own him.

Not really speculation they're shown to be equals after Snoke's death

Originally posted by Scizard
Not really speculation they're shown to be equals after Snoke's death


Because of Force pulling the Saber ? Nah that was likely due to their Dyad. Same way she was able to resist and turn back his mind probe in TFA.

Again Luke already confirmed Kylo > Rey. And Kylo outright beat Rey in TROS.

Luke said Kylo was far more powerful than Rey in TLJ.

"Talent without training is nothing."
-Luke Skywalker

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Its also speculation that Kylo would have been ragdolled as easily by Snoke as Rey was.

Kylo isnt Rey. Hes far more dangerous an opponent according to Luke in the TLJ comic. Hes been trained for over a decade, and he outright beat Rey in TROS.

But yeah I agree Luke would own him.

Rey stalemated Kylo in a Force tug of war in TLJ. Same thing happened in ROS with the ship. Snoke casually put Kylo in his place with a simple burst of lightning. There's no evidence to suggest Kylo can defend himself against Snoke.

It's basic scaling. Snoke is suggested to be in the same tier as ROTJ Sidious. ESB Sidious dominated Vader with the Force. We know Luke is implied to be stronger than Snoke as Snoke as outright afraid of him. We also know that Kylo is sub-Vader level. If Luke is equal to or superior to ROTJ Sidious and Kylo is "no Vader" then what exactly is stopping Luke from dispatching Kylo with the Force?

Based on that and Luke's considerably superior lightsaber dueling skills there's no reason at all to think Luke won't be able to dispose of Kylo within a few seconds.

Just want to remind you:

The ROS novelization confirmed that Kylo was overpowering Rey in their tug of war over the shuttle.

Luke says that Kylo is still far more powerful than Rey in the TLJ novelization.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Rey stalemated Kylo in a Force tug of war in TLJ. Same thing happened in ROS with the ship. Snoke casually put Kylo in his place with a simple burst of lightning. There's no evidence to suggest Kylo can defend himself against Snoke.

It's basic scaling. Snoke is suggested to be in the same tier as ROTJ Sidious. ESB Sidious dominated Vader with the Force. We know Luke is implied to be stronger than Snoke as Snoke as outright afraid of him. We also know that Kylo is sub-Vader level. If Luke is equal to or superior to ROTJ Sidious and Kylo is "no Vader" then what exactly is stopping Luke from dispatching Kylo with the Force?

Based on that and Luke's considerably superior lightsaber dueling skills there's no reason at all to think Luke won't be able to dispose of Kylo within a few seconds.


That would be basic scaling if Rey had any significant training whatsoever at that point and if there was no Dyad. But she had hardly a few lessons and no real time to hone her abilities, so theres no reason to think her mastery of defending against force attacks would be equal to Kylos.

I dont see the relevance of repeatedly bringing up the lightning shot when he wasnt prepared for that. And had no opportunity to attack back. May I remind you Palpatine KOd Yoda with a blast of force lightning before they properly tested their powers against each other.

We do know though Rey and Kylo have a Dyad, and that due to the Dyad she has proven herself multiple times attack Kylo back the way he attacks her, or fight alongside him reflecting his moves.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Just want to remind you:

The ROS novelization confirmed that Kylo was overpowering Rey in their tug of war over the shuttle.

Luke says that Kylo is still far more powerful than Rey in the TLJ novelization.


Yep

Also the Saber moved closer to him when they were both pulling against it. And that Saber naturally calls to her (remember when he tried to lift it in TFA, but it went flying to her instead).

The Dyad amplifies Kylo Ren's strength as well. Luke is just blatantly wrong if he's referring to purely force power, all out power is a different story though, which could be what Luke is referring to.

The Dyad lets them reflect each other moves. That will obviously benefit the one without training more. As she has no moves or mastery of her own.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Just want to remind you:

The ROS novelization confirmed that Kylo was overpowering Rey in their tug of war over the shuttle.

Luke says that Kylo is still far more powerful than Rey in the TLJ novelization.

I couldn't care less about the novel. The movie shows a different picture. Even if he was overpowering her it was with extreme effort, so they're peers in Force strength no matter how you look at it. Actually, Rey is better with the Force because she has far less training and she can do things he cannot (heal & lightning). There's nothing to suggest Kylo would fare any better than Rey against Snoke.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That would be basic scaling if Rey had any significant training whatsoever at that point and if there was no Dyad. But she had hardly a few lessons and no real time to hone her abilities, so theres no reason to think her mastery of defending against force attacks would be equal to Kylos.

I dont see the relevance of repeatedly bringing up the lightning shot when he wasnt prepared for that. And had no opportunity to attack back. May I remind you Palpatine KOd Yoda with a blast of force lightning before they properly tested their powers against each other.

We do know though Rey and Kylo have a Dyad, and that due to the Dyad she has proven herself multiple times attack Kylo back the way he attacks her, or fight alongside him reflecting his moves.

Kind of irrelevant to the point becuase Kylo was in the room when Rey was getting ragdolled and she had the full benefit of the dyad meme at that point.

That's a completely different situation. Yoda was being arrogant, which allowed the Emperor to catch him, but Sidious and Yoda are peers. Kylo and Snoke are definitely not peers, otherwise Kylo wouldn't have to use trickery to kill Snoke. And it's disingenuous to say Kylo was not ready for it because he was being defiant. He knew Snoke would try to punish him for it.

Great. This has nothing to do with my point that Luke >/= ROTJ Sidious or that Kylo < Vader, however, so how does Kylo avoid getting dominated like Vader was?

No, I'm not. Movies > books. You and Thor are doing your best to ignore the facts that Kylo is sub-Vader level and Luke is a peer to Sidious, however.

They just gain enough others moves no? I don't see how it gives Rey anymore strength, but it shouldn't matter anyway. Rey is in close proximity to Kylo, she'd be recieving the power of the dyad and she still gets ragdolled.

So neither of them are recieving power boosts during their tug of war?

Not during their ROS tug of war. Im not sure what the novel says about the TLJ tug of war over the saber.

Probably, yeah.

I doubt it amps them when they aren’t working as a team though.

Hmm

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Probably, yeah.

I doubt it amps them when they aren’t working as a team though. Unless I'm not remembering something from the RoS novelization, I believe this blurb from the VD is the only source which outright states that the dyad "amplified" the abilities of Kylo and Rey:
https://ibb.co/yRvd03w
But tbf, "abilities" is a pretty ambiguous term... And in the context of the scene that excerpt is specifying(ie. Kylo/Rey vs. the PG), "abilities" could just be in reference to their saber skills being bolstered by the dyad(and not necessarily their overall power, since neither of them used any offensive Force attacks during that battle.) /shrug

Because more recent sources, like The Star Wars Book, make no mention of the dyad amping their powers.

For example, this excerpt(which uses the same source pic as the VD, for what it's worth), merely states that Rey and Kylo were "sensing each other's next moves" whilst fighting the PG:
https://ibb.co/sqPdCBK

And these excerpts, which list all of the dyad abilities Kylo and Rey displayed, also make no mention of their powers being amplified by it:
https://ibb.co/PQPjpqm
https://ibb.co/cyGT2tC
https://ibb.co/sm3Tpb7
-See and feel what the other is experiencing.
-Pass objects back and forth over great distances via the Force.
-Use Force-healing.
-Communicate across vast distances.
-And of course, acting as an optimal snack to revivify Palpatine's broken body.


So I'm not even confident that the dyad was amping them at all anymore... RoS is such a messy clusterf*ck.

Mirroring each others moves is what I was getting at when I said reflecting.

And them sensing each others next move seems to go hand in hand with that idea.

As for amplifying, I thought that was sort of implied when Palpatine absorbs the power of the Dyad which was presumably much more power than absorbing each of them separately.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
As for amplifying, I thought that was sort of implied when Palpatine absorbs the power of the Dyad which was presumably much more power than absorbing each of them separately. Palpatine absorbing Rey and Ben wasn't about taking their raw power; it was about taking the life force their dyad generated. Hence his line: "The life force of your bond. A dyad in the Force. A power like life itself...*commence drain*"

Granted, Palpatine absorbed their power as well, but the super-duper dyad life force(which, yes, was exponentially greater than what they could have produced individually) is what actually healed/revivified his body.

So I still don't know if that equates to the dyad amping their overall Force powers. /shrug

^ Actually that makes more sense given too much power was the cause of his body decaying in the first place.

It's a bit weird. In the TROS novelization when Palpatine fires his lightning it states the power is stolen and rey/kylo's power. I think Rey might be narrating here although I'm not sure since I don't have the book.

Honestly for the most part I like the ST but the whole powers and revival shit is just a ****ing mess.

Originally posted by Scizard
Honestly for the most part I like the ST

https://media1.giphy.com/media/os5Bz1IRmXaik/giphy.gif

I'm gonna pretend you didn't say that.