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Who wins?

If you believe Snoke's power was even in the same ballpark as RotJ Palpatine's, then he stomps Dooku with ease.

Unless they start off at a significant distance, Dooku wins Imo. Too good a Saber combatant to be defeated by a cripple.

Dooku wins

Dooku by feats, Snoke by hype. I generally value feats more than hype, so Dooku I guess

Mace was barely able to contain ROTS Sidious' lightning so Snoke should easily overwhelm Dooku imo.

Originally posted by Scizard
Mace was barely able to contain ROTS Sidious' lightning so Snoke should easily overwhelm Dooku imo.


Is Mace > Dooku in the Force though?

Originally posted by Galan007
If you believe Snoke's power was even in the same ballpark as RotJ Palpatine's, then he stomps Dooku with ease.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Is Mace > Dooku in the Force though?

Probably ~ based on feats

So in shitsney canon you can train all of your life, then even survive your death and still some cripled, failed creatoin of yours will be as powerful as you? Or like a master Yoda who was the most powerful jedi of his time and had more then 800 years of training? It's silly, its pathetic, ist stupid and against any - even in terms of Star Wars - logic.

So yeah, Count Dooku, one of the most pwoerful jedi/sith of his time stomps that small piec of... stinky meat. You have to be a failure who lost a battle to a gilr that never held a lighstaber to be inferior to this clown.

Originally posted by McP
So in shitsney canon you can train all of your life, then even survive your death and still some cripled, failed creatoin of yours will be as powerful as you? Or like a master Yoda who was the most powerful jedi of his time and had more then 800 years of training? It's silly, its pathetic, ist stupid and against any - even in terms of Star Wars - logic.



Honestly I dont really buy into random quotes like that deciding power levels.

But with a lack of other evidence, I dont mind them being used as evidence in debates, especially on an EU Forum.

But yeah Im sure Filoni could have Ahsoka kicking Snokes butt, and not only would the Story Group have no say on that, id be surprised if they even know or care for all the random quotes regarding power levels.

Not to mention they are always worded in a way that could be open to interpretation anyway. Which is probably intentional to cover their backs.

Why does Snoke being a failed clone of Palpatine mean he's anywhere near Palpatine-level?

He got cheapshotted and betrayed, same as the real Palpatine.

If anything, that makes him an incredibly accurate copy of Palps.

And Galan is referring to this, fyi:

https://i.redd.it/l3qhaijd1bi41.png

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He got cheapshotted and betrayed, same as the real Palpatine.

If anything, that makes him an incredibly accurate copy of Palps.

A little different Imo given Palpatine was focused on killing someone else at the time. Whereas Snokes full attention was on the guy who killed him.



Btw Would Luke know how strong Palpatine is?

Just saying because I doubt Palpatine was frying Luke with his Max power.

Dooku wins, he knows how to block lightening and thats all snoke has, he puts his saber through snokes face

But again, IF you believe Snoke ~ RotJ Palpatine, then Dooku... Isn't blocking his attacks.

Pre-Prime Ben Solo has better feats than Dooku and and Rey was shown to be ~ atleast in TLJ and she got ragdolled so yeah maybe Dooku gets ragdolled even.

Yeah, as much as I do believe Dooku should destroy this lame character it's clearly intended for Snoke to be close to Palpatine. Though maybe I could see Dooku taking some wins against Palpatine if he was as disabled as Snoke was

Originally posted by Scizard
and Rey was shown to be ~ atleast in TLJ and she got ragdolled so yeah maybe Dooku gets ragdolled even.


Rey wasnt even Bens equal in TROS after a year of training. Let alone as of TLJ.

The sequel trilogy is so bad, my god.... ergo Dooku wins.

Even accepting the quote, I dunno man, Dooku with his Saber against a crippled Sidious with no weapon.. Feel like Dookus stock has gone down a lot over the years for people to still pick the crippled Sidious clone.

Snoke murders him.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Even accepting the quote, I dunno man, Dooku with his Saber against a crippled Sidious with no weapon.. Feel like Dookus stock has gone down a lot over the years for people to still pick the crippled Sidious clone. ESB Palpatine didn't need a saber to casually rape Vader(who is >> Dooku across the board) with the Force alone.

So if Snoke is Palpatine level, I'm really not sure why you think a saber is the deciding factor here?

Originally posted by Galan007
ESB Palpatine didn't need a saber to casually rape Vader(who is >> Dooku across the board) with the Force alone.




Oh.. Im not caught up on the post ESB Star Wars comics.

That changes things.

Referring to this:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=17299643#post17299643

Pure Sidious wank, a succession of cheap shots that would have no relevance in an actual serious match, he's also healthier than Snoke so there is no telling whether the broken copycat is any good at keeping that performance for long

I still think Dooku mostly takes the dive though

I mean, cripple or not Snoke is still capable of duplicating the same subtle hand gestures(and lightning) that Palpatine used to rape Vader there... Doesn't exactly require high level acrobatics to do that, lol.

Granted you could argue that Vader was emotionally compromised to some extent, but you could also argue that Palpatine was not trying to kill him(and was therefore holding back.) So yeah...

Was completely one sided. Theres no getting around that.

But so much for Vader being the Strongest Sith quote!

I dont mind Snoke having that power since hes a clone of Palps. But then how would Palps control him? The guy didnt even like Dooku training Ventress for their combined potential. But hes cool making a being of equal power to him? That doesnt make sense.

I think Luke might have misread that.

Edit: Also it bodes well for Reys potential

Because Palpatine himself became vastly more powerful than he was during ESB/RotJ... Especially if you believe he was channeling the power of all the Sith before him during RoS.

Compared to that, Snoke would have been small fries.

Originally posted by Galan007
Because Palpatine himself became vastly more powerful than he was during ESB/RotJ... Especially if you believe he was channeling the power of all the Sith before him during RoS.

Compared to that, Snoke would have been small fries.


Depends when he made Snoke, and when he gained the power of all the Sith.

But With ROTJ Sidious power and knowledge of the Force he could catch up pretty fast.

But I suppose he could always take Snoke in Sabers.

SW.com states that Palpatine was more powerful than Snoke.

SW.com has always been pretty reliable.

Did Sidious have only a fraction of his power in Snoke?

Snoke ragdolls

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Did Sidious have only a fraction of his power in Snoke? Snoke was an independent being -- a clone "strandcast". His power wasn't directly connected to Palapatine's.

Originally posted by Galan007
Snoke was an independent being -- a clone "strandcast". His power wasn't directly connected to Palapatine's. Oh, so then why are people comparing him to TROS Sidious?

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Oh, so then why are people comparing him to TROS Sidious?


They are comparing him to ROTJ Sidious due to a note on his power in Lukes journal.

Just depends if Luke was fully aware of Palpatines full power though.

Aside from that Other reason to compare them is because hes a clone of Palpatine.

Does Snoke even feats to suggest his hype? Hype is often not accurate, otherwise every jedi and their mother would be one "of the finest swordmen ever produced by the order". Vader himself was supposed to be pretty close to sidious by hype, but facts are what matter in the end, and sidious proved he is >>>Vader

Originally posted by Total Warrior
Does Snoke even feats to suggest his hype? Hype is often not accurate, otherwise every jedi and their mother would be one "of the finest swordmen ever produced by the order". Vader himself was supposed to be pretty close to sidious by hype, but facts are what matter in the end, and sidious proved he is >>>Vader


Best hes got is ragdolling Rey (unless im missing something from the comics).

But I dont see how that places him higher than Dooku in the Force.

She was a Padawan after all. And not a particularly well trained one at that.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
They are comparing him to ROTJ Sidious due to a note on his power in Lukes journal.

Just depends if Luke was fully aware of Palpatines full power though.

Aside from that Other reason to compare them is because hes a clone of Palpatine. Outside of Legends, I don't see how Luke would know the full extent of Palpatine's power.

What ever amount of power Palpatine had as of ROTJ was too strong for Snoke's body to contain, otherwise Snoke's body would have been the vessel Palpatine inhabited. So I think it's safe to say that Snoke isn't as strong as ROTJ Palpatine.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
They are comparing him to ROTJ Sidious due to a note on his power in Lukes journal.

Just depends if Luke was fully aware of Palpatines full power though.

Aside from that Other reason to compare them is because hes a clone of Palpatine. Even if you don't think Luke was able to sense Palpatine's power during RotJ, his journal also notes that he'd been communicating with the spirits of Yoda, Kenobi, and Anakin over the years. Seems likely that he would've had a pretty accurate estimation of Palpatine's power, imo.

Originally posted by Dominis
What ever amount of power Palpatine had as of ROTJ was too strong for Snoke's body to contain, otherwise Snoke's body would have been the vessel Palpatine inhabited. So I think it's safe to say that Snoke isn't as strong as ROTJ Palpatine. The Snoke clones were genetic mutations/strandcasts. Don't think Palpatine would have been willing to transfer his essence into an imperfect vessel.

Originally posted by Galan007
The Snoke clones were genetic mutations/strandcasts. Don't think Palpatine would have been willing to transfer his essence into an imperfect vessel.


I think it would've been better than the body he was forced to inhabit, which was falling apart as a result.

Palpatine wanted a permanent vessel -- one that could contain his power indefinitely. I don't think he was interested in endlessly hopping from one crippled body to another.

Originally posted by Galan007
Palpatine wanted a permanent vessel -- one that could contain his power indefinitely. I don't think he was interested in endlessly hopping from one crippled body to another.


Yeah, but he was kinda almost forced to do that anyway, considering that the body he was forced to inhabit was also imperfect and falling apart.

I mean he was almost forced to inhabit another body in Rey.

Rey was his only option if he was to survive, which means that the Snoke's weren't even capable of holding his power at all, not even for a time.

Originally posted by Dominis
Yeah, but he was kinda almost forced to do that anyway, considering that the body he was forced to inhabit was also imperfect and falling apart. Indeed. That's why he was only interested in transferring his essence into a "perfect" vessel that was capable of housing his power indefinitely without falling apart... And Snoke's decrepit body certainly wasn't up to the task.

That said, the imperfect clone vessel that Palpatine originally transferred his essence into after RotJ still held up for 30+ years. So it's not like he was desperate to find a new host asap -- he had decades to plan/wait for a suitable host to emerge.

Originally posted by Galan007


Referring to this:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=17299643#post17299643

I do wonder though, could Sidious do this to prime Vader? He says multiple times how weak he is and that he needs to relearn to regain his power. And he's def mentally off after seeing "Padme" and "Luke".

Originally posted by Galan007
Indeed. That's why he was only interested in transferring his essence into a "perfect" vessel that was capable of housing his power indefinitely without falling apart... And Snoke's decrepit body certainly wasn't up to the task.

That said, the imperfect clone vessel that Palpatine originally transferred his essence into after RotJ still held up for 30+ years. So it's not like he was desperate to find a new host asap -- he had decades to plan/wait for a suitable host to emerge.


But the novel implies that his imperfect body started to fall victim to his own power upon transference (and as of The Rise of Kylo Ren comics, he's already forced to needing a machine to survive and get around in) yet it was still the vessel he chose.

None of the vessels that were made were strong enough to contain his spirit the way his original body did, which suggest that he was actually stronger in ROTJ (until he restores himself at the end of TROS).

I think the Sidious/Vader showing is obviously not Vader at his peak but the gap shown is so large I think it settles conclusively that Palpatine would beat Anakin in a neutral ground. Assuming Snoke is just as strong should make him beat both Dooku and Vader all the same.

^ Yeah theres no questioning hes miles and miles above all other Sith.


Originally posted by Galan007
Even if you don't think Luke was able to sense Palpatine's power during RotJ, his journal also notes that he'd been communicating with the spirits of Yoda, Kenobi, and Anakin over the years. Seems likely that he would've had a pretty accurate estimation of Palpatine's power, imo.



Hmm...

If undead Palpatine was falling victim to the amount of power he had in ROTJ, then that would suggest that he was stronger in ROTJ on account of having a superior vessel to access the full extent of his power, which would mean that Snoke isn't on par with ROTJ Palpatine, considering he is confirmed to be weaker than even undead Sheev.

However amount of power Snoke had obviously didn't decay his body to the extent that undead Sheev's power was decaying his, which means that while Snoke's body was strong enough to access much force power, it wasn't to extent that Palpatine's undead clone contained, which from inference would be the power he had in ROTJ.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I do wonder though, could Sidious do this to prime Vader? He says multiple times how weak he is and that he needs to relearn to regain his power. And he's def mentally off after seeing "Padme" and "Luke". I think Palpatine was just pissed that his apprentice had directly disobeyed his orders, and was punishing/reprimanding him as such.

But if you take Palpatine's statements literally, then it really depends if you think the "conflict" Vader was experiencing at the time actually neutered his power to any significant extent... Because you also have to take into account that Vader was pretty enraged by the revelation that Palpatine had lied to him about Padme's death and such(and anger typically bolsters Sith power.) So it's nigh-impossible to quantify how "weakened" Vader may(or may not) have actually been there, imo.

Aside from that, Palpatine also raped Vader with literally NO discernible effort, whilst not actively trying to kill him... Meaning that Palpatine himself was almost certainly holding back quite a bit.

So yeah, I think an encounter between 'prime' Vader and ESB Palps would've played out the same way regardless. /shrug

Originally posted by Dominis
But the novel implies that his imperfect body started to fall victim to his own power upon transference (and as of The Rise of Kylo Ren comics, he's already forced to needing a machine to survive and get around in) yet it was still the vessel he chose.

None of the vessels that were made were strong enough to contain his spirit the way his original body did, which suggest that he was actually stronger in ROTJ (until he restores himself at the end of TROS). It was moreso that Palpatine's cultists were unable to perfect the cloning technique itself. Unable to make a force-sensitive clone vessel that wasn't deformed/mutated in some way. Perhaps Palpatine *could* have hopped into one of the strancasts/Snoke if he absolutely HAD to(we don't know either way), but that would have only been a temporary solution. He wanted permanency.

And as mentioned: despite the rancid state of his original clone body, it was still able to contain his essence for decadeS... Which gave Palpatine ample time to wait for a perfect/suitable vessel(ie. Rey) to be conceived through more natural methods.

Yeah I know what Palpatine preferred but he wasn't able to get that through either Snoke or the body he did inhabit on account of both being imperfect, yet the body that seemed to be able to hold his power for at least a time was the one he chose.

If you're suggesting that Palpatine was unable to inhabit Snoke for some reason other than it just not being strong enough, well I don't think that was ever suggested. Seems like they all were just not able to hold up, and that the one he chose was most suitable on account of at least being able to hold his power for a time.

Also, I posted this at around the same time you posted your last post in case you didn't see it....

Originally posted by Dominis
If undead Palpatine was falling victim to the amount of power he had in ROTJ, then that would suggest that he was stronger in ROTJ on account of having a superior vessel to access the full extent of his power, which would mean that Snoke isn't on par with ROTJ Palpatine, considering he is confirmed to be weaker than even undead Sheev.

However amount of power Snoke had obviously didn't decay his body to the extent that undead Sheev's power was decaying his, which means that while Snoke's body was strong enough to access much force power, it wasn't to extent that Palpatine's undead clone contained, which from inference would be the power he had in ROTJ.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think Palpatine was just pissed that his apprentice had directly disobeyed his orders, and was punishing/reprimanding him as such.

But if you take Palpatine's statements literally, then it really depends if you think the "conflict" Vader was experiencing at the time actually neutered his power to any significant extent... Because you also have to take into account that Vader was pretty enraged by the revelation that Palpatine had lied to him about Padme's death and such(and anger typically bolsters Sith power.) So it's nigh-impossible to quantify how "weakened" Vader may(or may not) have actually been there, imo.

Aside from that, Palpatine also raped Vader with literally NO discernible effort, whilst not actively trying to kill him... Meaning that Palpatine himself was almost certainly holding back quite a bit.

So yeah, I think an encounter between 'prime' Vader and ESB Palps would've played out the same way regardless. /shrug

I mean I think he'd still own him. But it does tie back to when Rebels was first released this idea that peak Vader was really during Rebels because he is deep in darkness. And that Luke spared that light within him. Now you can argue that doesn't directly correlate to power, but I'd think it does.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Now you can argue that doesn't directly correlate to power, but I'd think it does.


Conflict definitely does. Conflicted Anakin couldnt take ROTS Obi-Wan. And there are other examples in canon.

Given that, id say its only a sight amount of conflict beginning to stem here. Vaders peak conflict will be as of ROTJ.

https://i.redd.it/wt16dqcx8kz21.png

Originally posted by Dominis
What ever amount of power Palpatine had as of ROTJ was too strong for Snoke's body to contain, otherwise Snoke's body would have been the vessel Palpatine inhabited. So I think it's safe to say that Snoke isn't as strong as ROTJ Palpatine.

Thats a good point tbh. He needs a giant robotic arm just to move around, Snoke at the very least could walk around of his own accord.

Originally posted by Dominis
Yeah I know what Palpatine preferred but he wasn't able to get that through either Snoke or the body he did inhabit on account of both being imperfect, yet the body that seemed to be able to hold his power for at least a time was the one he chose.

If you're suggesting that Palpatine was unable to inhabit Snoke for some reason other than it just not being strong enough, well I don't think that was ever suggested. Seems like they all were just not able to hold up, and that the one he chose was most suitable on account of at least being able to hold his power for a time.

Also, I posted this at around the same time you posted your last post in case you didn't see it.... I see where you're coming from.

I'm just saying that I don't think Palpatine ever intended to transfer his essence into a genetic mutation/strandcast, because that would have only been a temporary solution at best(assuming it was even possible in the first place.)

Point being: Palpatine choosing not to use Snoke as his host, and instead waiting for an ideal vessel to surface, doesn't automatically cap Snoke himself below the level of RotJ Palpatine.

Originally posted by Galan007
I see where you're coming from.

I'm just saying that I don't think Palpatine ever intended to transfer his essence into a genetic mutation/strandcast, because that would have only been a temporary solution at best(assuming it was even possible in the first place.)

Point being: Palpatine choosing not to use Snoke as his host, and instead waiting for an ideal vessel to surface, doesn't automatically cap Snoke himself below the level of RotJ Palpatine.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Conflict definitely does. Conflicted Anakin couldnt take ROTS Obi-Wan. And there are other examples in canon.

Given that, id say its only a sight amount of conflict beginning to stem here. Vaders peak conflict will be as of ROTJ.

Really? Even though he went on a personal mission after seeing Luke in defiance to the Emperor. The fact that he even brings up 'you lied to be about Padme' to Sidious seems to suggest a lot of conflicts. I think its actually a nice bridge to the ROTJ conflict.

^ I'm curious to see how the comics flesh that out.

Because we know that by the time of RotJ, Vader was essentially redeemed in Palpatine's eyes. So any "conflict" he was experiencing is either gone, OR buried so deep that Palpatine can no longer sense it(hell, it might be buried so deep that even Vader himself isn't aware of it.)

...Otherwise Vader logically wouldn't be back at Palpatine's side again.

Originally posted by Galan007
I see where you're coming from.

I'm just saying that I don't think Palpatine ever intended to transfer his essence into a genetic mutation/strandcast, because that would have only been a temporary solution at best(assuming it was even possible in the first place.)

Point being: Palpatine choosing not to use Snoke as his host, and instead waiting for an ideal vessel to surface, doesn't automatically cap Snoke himself below the level of RotJ Palpatine.

Probably not by itself, though I do think it makes for a very strong case. At the end of the day, the body Palpatine did choose was in far worse shape than Snoke was in and couldn't even survive without a device, so I believe that the deformities Snoke did have would have been irrelevant to Palpatine, unless those deformities prevented Sidious from inhabiting Snoke at all, but I don't think that was ever suggested. It's only implied that for one reason or another none of the creations created on Exogol were going to give Palpatine what he wanted, which was a long lasting body like you said. However, we know that Palpatine did choose the body he chose for a reason, and I think the most likely reason is that it was the only body capable of holding Sidious at least for a time. And if that's the case, then it would put Snoke below ROTJ Palpatine.

I mean, IF Snoke was equally as powerful as ROTJ Palpatine, well given how good he was able to get around on his own as of TLJ without needing a device to survive and to move(almost just as good as ROTJ Palpatine himself), then that would kinda indicate that Palpatine chose the inferior vessel, which I doubt to be the case.

Overall, I think what actually all but confirms Snoke to be inferior to ROTJ Sidious, is the fact that he is confirmed to be weaker than even undead Sidious, who is likely weaker than ROTJ Palpatine, given that the clone body Palpatine did inhabit was imperfect and wasn't ready by the time he did die in ROTJ, forcing him to inhabit a vessel that could barely support the power he had in his original body.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ I'm curious to see how the comics flesh that out.

Because we know that by the time of RotJ, Vader was essentially redeemed in Palpatine's eyes. So any "conflict" he was experiencing is either gone, OR buried so deep that Palpatine can no longer sense it(hell, it might be buried so deep that even Vader himself isn't aware of it.)

...Otherwise Vader logically wouldn't be back at Palpatine's side again.


Well, we know it was there because he turned.

And there was that scene where Palpatine sounded pissed questioning Vader if his feelings on the matter were clear.

Then of course Luke outright feeling his conflict.

Then obviously the fact that he actually turns back, and tells Luke he was right about him.

Originally posted by Dominis
Probably not by itself, though I do think it makes for a very strong case. At the end of the day, the body Palpatine did choose was in far worse shape than Snoke was in and couldn't even survive without a device, so I believe that the deformities Snoke did have would have been irrelevant to Palpatine, unless those deformities prevented Sidious from inhabiting Snoke at all, but I don't think that was ever suggested. It's only implied that for one reason or another none of the creations created on Exogol were going to give Palpatine what he wanted, which was a long lasting body like you said. However, we know that Palpatine did choose the body he chose for a reason, and I think the most likely reason is that it was the only body capable of holding Sidious at least for a time. And if that's the case, then it would put Snoke below ROTJ Palpatine.

I mean, IF Snoke was equally as powerful as ROTJ Palpatine, well given how good he was able to get around on his own as of TLJ without needing a device to survive and to move(almost just as good as ROTJ Palpatine himself), then that would kinda indicate that Palpatine chose the inferior vessel, which I doubt to be the case.

Overall, I think what actually all but confirms Snoke to be inferior to ROTJ Sidious, is the fact that he is confirmed to be weaker than even undead Sidious, who is likely weaker than ROTJ Palpatine, given that the clone body Palpatine did inhabit was imperfect and wasn't ready by the time he did die in ROTJ, forcing him to inhabit a vessel that could barely support the power he had in his original body. Not really following your logic here.

I mean, we don't even know if it was possible for Palpatine to just transfer his essence into any being he wanted, at any time -- let alone a failed genetic strandcast. If that were the case, you'd think he would've just had Kylo strike him down(which Kylo was fully prepared to do at the beginning of RoS), hop into his body, and be done with it. /shrug

That's why Palps choosing not to try and transfer his essence into Snoke, and instead using Snoke as a puppet/servant to help further his own agenda, doesn't automatically cap Snoke himself below the level of RotJ Palpatine. Imo.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well, we know it was there because he turned.

And there was that scene where Palpatine sounded pissed questioning Vader if his feelings on the matter were clear.

Then of course Luke outright feeling his conflict.

Then obviously the fact that he actually turns back, and tells Luke he was right about him. I meant "gone" from the POV of Vader and Palpatine.

ie. Maybe Vader actually does think he killed-off those emotions entirely(or perhaps even turned them into strength), and Palpatine himself believes the same -- which would explain why Vader's #2 status has been fully redeemed by RotJ.

...But then when Luke enters the picture at the end of the film, the emotions/conflict begin to resurface again. /shrug


Dunno. That's why I'm curious to see how the comics flesh it all out.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not really following your logic here.

I mean, we don't even know if it was possible for Palpatine to just transfer his essence into any being he wanted, at any time -- let alone a failed genetic strandcast. If that were the case, you'd think he would've just had Kylo strike him down(which Kylo was fully prepared to do at the beginning of RoS), hop into his body, and be done with it. /shrug

That's why Palps choosing not to try and transfer his essence into Snoke, and instead using Snoke as a puppet/servant to help further his own agenda, doesn't automatically cap Snoke himself below the level of RotJ Palpatine. Imo.

In other words, if Snoke's body was capable of harnessing as much force power as ROTJ Palpatine, then Palpatine would have logically used the Snoke strandcast (regardless of deformities) over being stuck in a body that couldn't even move on it's own. At least Snoke was capable of getting around almost as good as Palpatine in ROTJ.

If there is another reason that Palpatine couldn't inhabit a Snoke strandcast other than them just not being strong enough, then its not even hinted at in the novelization. However, Based on this line:

And it was through that eventual union, unexpected as it was, that Rey was born. The perfect vessel. Strong enough to contain all the power of the Sith. His granddaughter."

...it seems that the issue with the vessels created on exogol was that they were just not strong enough to hold the power of Sidious. Nothing more.

Depends when Snoke was created, Palpatine's power could've increased over the years.

Vader was also far weaker than he usually operates at, the Emperor specifically states that he once had 'unimaginable strength'. Of course a weakened Vader would be able to be easily manipulated with the force.

Originally posted by Dominis
I'm not sure why he wasn't willing to inhabit Ren, and we may never know. I'm sure we'll never know... RoS was a giant clusterf*ck that way, lol.

My only point is that if we're going to nitpick why Palpatine didn't transfer his essence into Snoke, then it's only fair to nitpick why he didn't transfer his essence into Kylo. Because by ALL accounts, Kylo's power/potential = Rey's... Yet Palpatine still opted not to transfer his essence into Kylo, despite Rey(his equal) being considered the "perfect vessel."

That being said, I think it's reasonable to assume that Palpatine may not have been able to transfer his essence into just anyone... And perhaps that's why, massive deformities aside, the Snoke clones were considered failures: they simply were not capable of receiving his essence at all(like a phone without a SIM card.)

As mentioned: if Palps *would* have been capable of hopping into any Force-sensitive being he wanted(at any time), then he would have logically just allowed Kylo to strike him down(which he was fully prepared to do at the beginning of the film), and transferred his essence into Kylo's body... Because if Rey was the "perfect vessel", then Kylo should have theoretically been an optimal host as well.

...But that's obviously not what Palpatine wanted. So I think it's equally as possible that Kylo and Snoke simply may not have been capable of becoming "receptacles" for his "god-consciousness" at all. That could be why no attempt at proper essence-transfer was ever made on them. I mean, the novelization almost seems to indicate that, for the transfer to be successful, specific biological elements were required in the host body -- which would help explain why Rey(a Force-sensitive direct decedent of Palpatine's own bloodline, born through purely natural methods) was evidently the *only* possible vessel for him. But that's neither here nor there...


tl;dr
I don't think ABC logic(ie. "Snoke wasn't used as a vessel, therefore he must be inferior to RotJ Palpatine" necessarily works here -- it doesn't seem that cut and dry to me. /shrug

Originally posted by Darth Thor
However Luke was wrong that Snoke = Palpatine. Because He never was. Based on what facts, though?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
And as TROS suggests, Luke always suspected Palpatine was still alive, and was searching for him. The VD states that after the events of RotJ, Luke sensed the "continued/growing presence of the dark side" within the Unknown Regions, and heard whispers of "a resurgent enemy from the past." That's why Luke started searching for the wayfinder/Exegol in the first place -- he was trying to figure out what was going on. But even IF Luke suspected that Palpatine was still alive, he was never stated to have sensed the presence of Palpatine himself... It was implied to be more of a generic disturbance in the Force, which puzzled Luke.

It's also strange because you'd think if Luke truly believed that Palpatine was alive, he'd devote ALL of his time/effort into tracking him down, and not give up his search the second the trail went cold. /shrug

But either way, an unconfirmed suspicion(at best) that Palpatine was alive doesn't diminish the power of Snoke.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
So its more likely that one note in his journal was simply retconned by TROS. Or that he was just wrong. I don't see how his note in the journal was "retconned" by anything released thus far, tbh.

Luke did seem to liken Snoke's power to that of Palpatine... And headcanon aside, nothing I've seen explicitly contradicts that assertion. /shrug

I agree with you.

The current scaling seems to be- dyad!Sidious>rotten clone!Sidious>ROTJ!Sidious=Snoke

We dont have any legit reason right now to think that Snoke was any less powerful then Luke said he was.

But even if Snoke was "only" as powerful as ROTS Sidious, that still puts Snoke on a much higher level then Dooku.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm sure we'll never know... RoS was a giant clusterf*ck that way, lol.

My only point is that if we're going to nitpick why Palpatine didn't transfer his essence into Snoke, then it's only fair to nitpick why he didn't transfer his essence into Kylo. Because by ALL accounts, Kylo's power/potential = Rey's... Yet Palpatine still opted not to transfer his essence into Kylo, despite Rey(his equal) being considered the "perfect vessel."

That being said, I think it's reasonable to assume that Palpatine may not have been able to transfer his essence into just anyone... And perhaps that's why, massive deformities aside, the Snoke clones were considered failures: they simply were not capable of receiving his essence at all(like a phone without a SIM card.)

As mentioned: if Palps *would* have been capable of hopping into any Force-sensitive being he wanted(at any time), then he would have logically just allowed Kylo to strike him down(which he was fully prepared to do at the beginning of the film), and transferred his essence into Kylo's body... Because if Rey was the "perfect vessel", then Kylo should have theoretically been an optimal host as well.

...But that's obviously not what Palpatine wanted. So I think it's equally as possible that Kylo and Snoke simply may not have been capable of becoming "receptacles" for his "god-consciousness" at all. That could be why no attempt at proper essence-transfer was ever made on them. I mean, the novelization almost seems to indicate that, for the transfer to be successful, specific biological elements were required in the host body -- which would help explain why Rey(a Force-sensitive direct decedent of Palpatine's own bloodline, born through purely natural methods) was evidently the *only* possible vessel for him. But that's neither here nor there...


tl;dr
I don't think ABC logic(ie. "Snoke wasn't used as a vessel, therefore he must be inferior to RotJ Palpatine" necessarily works here -- it doesn't seem that cut and dry to me. /shrug


I see.

With Kylo Ren tho, given that Palpatine never seemed interested in inhabiting Ren at all, despite him having more potential than even himself, just seemed to rule out Kylo Ren as being a special case entirely, which I just assumed had something to do with him being a Skywalker.

Whereas Snoke was a strandcast like Rey's father(only force sensitive and, well, deformed), created specifically for Palpatine to use as a vessel. And since the novel points out that Rey was the perfect vessel strong enough to hold his essence, unlike any of the strandcasts, it just seemed to me to imply that the strandcasts simply were not strong enough.

However, there may very well be another reason why he chose not to (or couldn't) inhabit Snoke, which is why I'm not depending solely on that to support my opinion that Snoke isn't = ROTJ Palpatine.

Snoke is confirmed to be weaker than undead Palpatine, who is most likely weaker than he was in ROTJ due to being stuck in a vessel that is unable to access the full extent of his power the way his original body could.

Originally posted by Galan007
Based on what facts, though?

The VD states that after the events of RotJ, Luke sensed the "continued/growing presence of the dark side" within the Unknown Regions, and heard whispers of "a resurgent enemy from the past." That's why Luke started searching for the wayfinder/Exegol in the first place -- he was trying to figure out what was going on. But even IF Luke suspected that Palpatine was still alive, he was never stated to have sensed the presence of Palpatine himself... It was implied to be more of a generic disturbance in the Force, which puzzled Luke.

It's also strange because you'd think if Luke truly believed that Palpatine was alive, he'd devote ALL of his time/effort into tracking him down, and not give up his search the second the trail went cold. /shrug

But either way, an unconfirmed suspicion(at best) that Palpatine was alive doesn't diminish the power of Snoke.

I don't see how his note in the journal was "retconned" by anything released thus far, tbh.

Luke did seem to liken Snoke's power to that of Palpatine... And headcanon aside, nothing I've seen explicitly contradicts that assertion. /shrug


Based on TROS making it clear Palpatine was Snokes superior the whole time.

So we are to believe that Palpatine in his broken clone body > ROTJ Palpatine, simply to align what we know now with a single statement in Lukes journal written pre-TROS.

Not to mention Luke could just be wrong on that.

Dooku wins.

During the Clone Wars Dooku's power grew noticeably to the point Sidious had to watch him closer.

Originally posted by Dominis
With Kylo Ren tho, given that Palpatine never seemed interested in inhabiting Ren at all, despite him having more potential than even himself, just seemed to rule out Kylo Ren as being a special case entirely, which I just assumed had something to do with him being a Skywalker. But then you have the excerpt from the novel, where Palpatine states that he had made the very same proposal to Luke in RotJ that he was making to Rey in RoS(ie. "strike me down, my essence will pass into you, etc." So IF Palpatine was indeed capable of transferring his essence into Luke, then he should have certainly been able to hop into Kylo as well.

Jfc. Forgot how much of a mess this novel is, lol.

Originally posted by Dominis
Whereas Snoke was a strandcast like Rey's father(only force sensitive and, well, deformed), created specifically for Palpatine to use as a vessel. And since the novel points out that Rey was the perfect vessel strong enough to hold his essence, unlike any of the strandcasts, it just seemed to me to imply that the strandcasts simply were not strong enough. Right, but we know that Snoke was also an extremely mutated/deformed strandcast, so that could be why he was unusable as a vessel for Palpatine.

Almost seemed like very precise genetic elements had to be in place in order for Palpatine to successfully transfer his essence into a host body. Either that, or he was only willing to hop into a "perfect" vessel because he didn't want to risk being displeased with a less-than-perfect host body, and risk having to go through the transference ritual again later on.

In this case, Palpatine knew that a "perfect" vessel(ie. Rey) was out there, and also knew that he had enough time to wait for her to surface... Why settle for a crippled leper if you don't absolutely HAVE to?

Originally posted by Dominis
Snoke is confirmed to be weaker than undead Palpatine, who is most likely weaker than he was in ROTJ due to being stuck in a vessel that is unable to access the full extent of his power the way his original body could. Yeah, it's hard to say because we don't know one way or the other.

I personally think the undead Palpatine clone's power was > what it was during RotJ, but was obviously weaker physically.

...But that's mainly because it's hard for me to imagine Palpatine's power(in any state) not increasing to some extent over the course of decadeS. /shrug

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Based on TROS making it clear Palpatine was Snokes superior the whole time.

So we are to believe that Palpatine in his broken clone body > ROTJ Palpatine, simply to align what we know now with a single statement in Lukes journal written pre-TROS.

Not to mention Luke could just be wrong on that. Do we have a reason to believe that Palpatine's power had decreased, simply because his physical body was frail?

It's simple.

Luke indicated that Snoke's power was equal to Sidious's. This should be referring to ROTJ Sidious, since that's the last time Luke had personally encountered and sensed him.

So Snoke = ROTJ Sidious in power.

Then Snoke himself later said that he respected and FEARED Luke. Snoke would not FEAR a being who was weaker then himself.

So ST Luke>Snoke=ROTJ Sidious.

Then when Kylo sensed the power of undead Sidious, he stated it was beyond anything he had ever encountered before.

So undead Sidious>ST Luke>Snoke=ROTJ Sidious.

Originally posted by Galan007
Do we have a reason to believe that Palpatine's power had decreased, simply because his physical body was frail?


I mean I certainly wouldnt think it Increased in a broken body.

Because the deteriorated state of his body doesn't mean he had less power then before. Physical appearance and power are two different things.

Kylo even states that the cloud of darkness swelling around undead Sidious "belied any sense of frailty".

To be honest, I'm not even sure if Sidious actually became more powerful after absorbing the dyad from Rey and Ben. I think his body was just restored. So he basically had the same power as before, but his body had been healed and no longer needed life support.

Pics were posted, but I'm pretty sure the Star Wars Book only says something about the dyad just "healing" Sidious's body or something along those lines. Dont think it mentions his power being amped by the dyad.

https://i.imgur.com/K3Y15ON.jpg

We all know how this ends.

I actually thought the Jedi standing in the doorway had Michael Jackson's face cropped over him at first.

Then I remembered how abysmal some of the art in Kylo's mini was.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto


I actually thought the Jedi standing in the doorway had Michael Jackson's face cropped over him at first.

Then I remembered how abysmal some of the art in Kylo's mini was.

It really was awful

Originally posted by Sheev
Because the deteriorated state of his body doesn't mean he had less power then before. Physical appearance and power are two different things.

Kylo even states that the cloud of darkness swelling around undead Sidious "belied any sense of frailty".



Yeah but why would any of that mean hes substantially more powerful to the point where ROTJ Sidious (the guy who casually owns Vader) could now just be his lackey ?

Im guessing Snoke was intended to be Palpatines equal until they retconned shit so that Palpatine was still alive and Snoke his lackey.

That aside, theres just so many reasons why Luke could have been wrong given the mystery around Snoke and how much of his powers were his own, and how much of what he was doing was actually Palpatine. And probably never feeling ROTJ Palpatines full power in the first place.

And if Luke didnt know Palpatine was alive, then hes clearly not all knowing despite him talking to Force Ghosts.

Because Luke's journal note isn't retconned just because you don't think it fits?

Luke indicated that Snoke's power was equal to Sidious's. Kylo sensed that undead Sidious's power was greater then anything he'd ever experienced.

So based on 2 canon pieces of info, undead Sidious > Snoke = ROTJ Sidious.

There's also no reason to think that Sidious couldn't have become more powerful in the 30 years between ROTJ and ROS, just because his body was a wreck. Sure you could say that becoming more powerful might have sped up the deterioration process of his clone body, but we don't know to what extent.

Like if Sidious's power was a 10 in ROTJ when he essence transferred, and his power increased to a 15 by ROS, it's impossible to say how much that added power would have progressed his rotting. Hell, maybe the life support goop that was being pumped into him on Exegol was able to help compensate for the added deterioration he might have been experiencing due to his power increasing?

What I'm saying is- we really don't have any reason at all to think his power had decreased, just because of the state of his clone body. Like I said before- physical appearance and power are two different things.

Didn't Snoke muse he'd seen the rise and fall of the Empire at one point? Wouldn't that mean he predates Palpatine's original death?

That seemed to be the original intent in the TFA novel for sure.

But now it's a lot less clear WHEN exactly Snoke surfaced.

Originally posted by Sheev
It's simple.

Luke indicated that Snoke's power was equal to Sidious's. This should be referring to ROTJ Sidious, since that's the last time Luke had personally encountered and sensed him.

So Snoke = ROTJ Sidious in power.

Then Snoke himself later said that he respected and FEARED Luke. Snoke would not FEAR a being who was weaker then himself.

So ST Luke>Snoke=ROTJ Sidious.

Then when Kylo sensed the power of undead Sidious, he stated it was beyond anything he had ever encountered before.

So undead Sidious>ST Luke>Snoke=ROTJ Sidious.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
https://i.imgur.com/K3Y15ON.jpg

We all know how this ends.

Originally posted by Sheev
That seemed to be the original intent in the TFA novel for sure.

But now it's a lot less clear WHEN exactly Snoke surfaced. Agreed.

Because the RoS novelization seems to imply that Palpatine's heretics didn't start attempting to create additional clone strandcasts until after Palpatine had originally transferred his essence into the imperfect clone vessel on Exegol:
And per The Star Wars Book, we know for sure that Snoke is indeed classified as a "genetic strandcast", and is further defined as a "genetically engineered proxy for Sidious."


So in spite of the dialogue from the TFA novelization(wherein Snoke claims to have seen the Empire rise and fall), it would now *seem* as though he was created at some point in the post-RotJ era.

Sidious66's interpretation is pretty persuasive and I'm not sure anything has been offered to contradict it.

We know Sheev was able to project his essence into the clone body on Exegol en route to the Death Star reactor core:

https://i.ibb.co/HVFN5tD/TROS-Sheev-flashback.png

From that same passage, we know Sheev's acolytes were seeking a superior "cradle for their god-consciousness" and this quest produced a number of "unnatural abominations" to serve as "a worthy receptacle."

That same passage explicitly says "nothing worked," despite The Star Wars Book explicitly referring to Snoke as one of the strandcasts created as a result from this process:

https://i.ibb.co/nrCNHpH/star-wars-book-snoke.png

Yes, Snoke was physically impaired... but obviously, clearly far less impaired than Sheev's "rotting corpse" of a clone body that required an Ommin harness and alchemical fluid to keep him functioning.

So, to recap:
* Sidious has the means to project his essence at whim into a blank receptacle without need of the STRIKE ME DOWN IN HATRED ritual
* Sidious was looking for a better body to cradle his consciousness
* This search was determined to be a total failure, despite the effort producing Snoke
* In terms of health, mobility, and stature, Snoke's body is objectively far healthier than the rotting clone corpse Sidious currently occupies
* Sheev has a giant jar of pickled Snokes on hand

This pretty clearly indicates Snoke is not a viable phylactery for Sheev's soul. He's not strong enough and we have no reason to believe otherwise.

All of that was already mentioned.

It absolutely does not disprove the notion that Snoke's power was on par with ROTJ Sidious.

Luke never said Snoke was as powerful as Sheev. Luke talked about mastery which can mean many things.

What else would Luke have meant by "mastery of the dark side", if not referring to Snoke's power? He certainly wasn't referring to lightsaber skill, lol.,

Anakin has more raw power than Dooku, but not more mastery. Not that hard to understand.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So, to recap:
* Sidious has the means to project his essence at whim into a blank receptacle without need of the STRIKE ME DOWN IN HATRED ritual
* Sidious was looking for a better body to cradle his consciousness
* This search was determined to be a total failure, despite the effort producing Snoke
* In terms of health, mobility, and stature, Snoke's body is objectively far healthier than the rotting clone corpse Sidious currently occupies
* Sheev has a giant jar of pickled Snokes on hand/B] *Sure but if the receptacle isn't "blank", then the strike me down ritual seems like a prerequisite.

*No he was looking for a "perfect" vessel. Snoke might have been slightly better then his first body, but he was still far from "perfect".

*See above. Sidious wanted nothing less then a perfect body to occupy, and Snoke didnt fit that description. So instead of kneejerk hopping into a mutated body that he would have eventually wanted to get rid of anyway, Sidious decided to wait and see if a better vessel would surface - which it eventually did with Rey. Like some others have said; Sidious's body may have been putrid by ROS, but it was still strong enough to contain his spirit for over 30 years. So it's not like he was ever really hardpressed for time to the point where Snoke was his best option.

*Ok. So he had a jar of servants at the ready, I guess.

If Snoke was created by the time of ROTJ he is locked sub ROTJ Sidious.

Originally posted by Darthadi
Anakin has more raw power than Dooku, but not more mastery. Not that hard to understand. False comparison. No differentiation was made between power and potential here.

Luke said that Snoke's "mastery of the dark side" was "equally as impressive and terrifying" as the Emperor's

So in the context of Luke's quote, what are you trying to say he meant by "mastery of the dark side", if not power?

Originally posted by Darthadi
If Snoke was created by the time of ROTJ he is locked sub ROTJ Sidious. Seems like he was created after ROTJ.

Potential has nothing to do with my point.
Raw aplicable power and mastery are not necessarly the same thing.
Mastery can refer to knowledge and control over your power.
Rey is likely more powerful than someone like Jinn, but Jinn's mastery is better
Vaylin has more power than Revan, but Revan's mastery is better.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
*Sure but if the receptacle isn't "blank", then the strike me down ritual seems like a prerequisite.

*No he was looking for a "perfect" vessel. Snoke might have been slightly better then his first body, but he was still far from "perfect".

*See above. Sidious wanted nothing less then a perfect body to occupy, and Snoke didnt fit that description. So instead of kneejerk hopping into a mutated body that he would have eventually wanted to get rid of anyway, Sidious decided to wait and see if a better vessel would surface - which it eventually did with Rey. Like some others have said; Sidious's body may have been putrid by ROS, but it was still strong enough to contain his spirit for over 30 years. So it's not like he was ever really hardpressed for time to the point where Snoke was his best option.

*Ok. So he had a jar of servants at the ready, I guess.

Sidious can perform an essence transfer as many times as he wants. It's not like he has to choose between Rey and Snoke.
If Snoke was as powerful as the emperor's ROTJ body, Sheev would have used one of his pickle Snokes as a temporarly solution until he can find the perfect vessel.

Originally posted by Sheev
Because Luke's journal note isn't retconned just because you don't think it fits?



Given Snoke and his origins seem to have changed quite a bit from The start to the end of this trilogy, its clear any old info on him might be retconned.

Not that it matters here, given its not an out of universe canon statement. Its Lukes journal and he could simply be wrong:

1)We dont know if Luke ever witnessed Sheevs full power.

2)If Luke knew Sheev was alive then his statement is clearly wrong. If he didnt know, then his opinion is still fallible. We dont know what the ghosts of Anakin, Ben and Yoda taught him about Sheevs full power.

3) Since Palpatine was hiding his existence its very possible Luke witnessed his power and assumed it was Snokes actions. Like the Lightning destroying the Temple.

Originally posted by Sheev
All of that was already mentioned.

It absolutely does not disprove the notion that Snoke's power was on par with ROTJ Sidious.

Unless your position is Sidious radically increased in power between Endor and the unknown time of Snoke's creation*, then it strongly undermines the idea.

*possible, I suppose

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
*Sure but if the receptacle isn't "blank", then the strike me down ritual seems like a prerequisite.

*No he was looking for a "perfect" vessel. Snoke might have been slightly better then his first body, but he was still far from "perfect".

*See above. Sidious wanted nothing less then a perfect body to occupy, and Snoke didnt fit that description. So instead of kneejerk hopping into a mutated body that he would have eventually wanted to get rid of anyway, Sidious decided to wait and see if a better vessel would surface - which it eventually did with Rey. Like some others have said; Sidious's body may have been putrid by ROS, but it was still strong enough to contain his spirit for over 30 years. So it's not like he was ever really hardpressed for time to the point where Snoke was his best option.

*Ok. So he had a jar of servants at the ready, I guess.

*We have no reason to assumed the pickled Snokes are anything but blank, otherwise why would he keep any of them around.

*Snoke doesn't have to be perfect to be a colossal improvement over a literal corpse that is rotting, immobile, and requires a mechanical harness and alchemical fluid to keep mildly preserved.

* This is a really, really dumb argument. It's not like Sheev has to choose between Snoke or Rey. We know from the passage I cited that Sheev can essence transfer in a manner of seconds (he does it in the middle of his Death Star basejump) and there's no indication he's limited to a certain number of attempts. If Snoke is strong enough to contain Sheev's spirit and Snoke's body is objectively far superior to the rotting corpse Sheev occupies that leaves him trapped on Exegol... why wouldn't he occupy that body until an optimal vessel becomes available? The answer is, obviously, he wouldn't.

It'd be like refusing to take a free 2005 Toyota Camry when you're driving around a 40 year old rusted shitbox with no stereo, A/C, power steering fluid, and a screwdriver in lieu of a key on the grounds that the Camry isn't a Tesla.

* Or pickled bodies he can fish out of that bowl whenever he has need of it.

Originally posted by Darthadi
If Snoke was as powerful as the emperor's ROTJ body, Sheev would have used one of his pickle Snokes as a temporarly solution until he can find the perfect vessel. If Palpatine was desperate enough that he would be willing to transfer his essence into a gimpy mutant, then what logical reason would there be for him to not transfer his essence into Kylo? I mean, Kylo was standing right in front of him, saber activated and aimed at his neck... He was fully prepared to strike Palpatine down in that moment(hence "You'll die first." So why wouldn't Palpatine simply allow that to happen, if he wasn't intentionally waiting to inhabit a "perfect" vessel that was created from his own bloodline(ie. Rey)..?

Because from where I'm standing, if Palpatine wasn't even willing to transfer his essence into Kylo, then there's no way in hell that he would have considered hopping into a crippled abomination like Snoke. After all, Kylo would have logically been a healthy, suitable vessel that was capable of sustaining Palpatine's essence without breaking down(given that all sources point to his power/potential being equal to Rey's)... But instead, Palps still chose to wait for Rey specifically.

Goes back to what I said earlier: seems to me like Palpatine was only interested in transferring his essence into a permanent/perfect vessel, and Snoke certainly didn't fit the bill. So I still can't get behind the logic that Snoke is somehow capped below the level of RotJ Palpatine, simply because he wasn't used as a vessel. Perfection/permanency is what Palpatine was after, and he had decadeS to wait for that to come into fruition(even in his rancid clone body.)

If you disagree, then I'd like to know why you think Palpatine didn't use Kylo as a vessel either.


**There's also the possibility that undead RoS Palpatine > RotJ Palpatine... Which could be another reason why Snoke's vessel wasn't usable.

I thought the reason why Palpatine didn't posses Kylo is clear, Sheev has some big hang ups with the Skywalkers and doesn't want to share eternity with one.

Ummm... What? How does temporarily lending Kylo a fleet equate at all with sharing a conciseness for all eternity?

Originally posted by ares834
I thought the reason why Palpatine didn't posses Kylo is clear, Sheev has some big hang ups with the Skywalkers and doesn't want to share eternity with one. The novel heavily implies that Palpatine intended to transfer his essence into Luke, though:


It was never indicated that Palpatine willingly refrained from using a Skywalker vessel, simply because he didn't like Skywalkers.

Originally posted by Galan007
The novel heavily implies that Palpatine intended to transfer his essence into Luke, though:


It was never indicated that Palpatine willingly refrained from using a Skywalker vessel, simply because he didn't like Skywalkers.
I would say that Sheev's mindset about the Skywalkers changed between ROTJ and TROS.

It's also possible that the ritual might not work on Kylo because he wouldn't strike Sidious in pure hatred and more for pragmatic reasons.

Not to mention other factors like Kylo's superior mastery ,(compared with Rey) which could help resisting the essence transfer as well as the fact Kylo is not related by blood with Sheev.

In TROS Sidious knew he only needed to wait a few hours/days to get Rey, so why risk trying to take over Kylo, when he ne needed him to bring Rey to Exegol.

About that....
Was it actually meant to be taken that way, that Sidious also meant to inhabit Luke? After all, the proposal he makes to Rey, he also compares to his own ascension when he killed Plagueis, which didn't involve Plagueis body hopping.



Plus, he never even says anything about his spirit to Luke, he just says "strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete" which is kinda the same proposal except without his spirit being involved.

Originally posted by Darthadi
I would say that Sheev's mindset about the Skywalkers changed between ROTJ and TROS. But where was it indicated that Palpatine despised Skywalkers to such an extent that he would rather transfer his essence into a deformed/mutated gimp, instead of a Skywalker..?

In fact, from Palpatine's POV I feel like possessing a Skywalker(and subsequently creating a mockery of the hope they once stood for) would please him quite a bit. /shrug

Originally posted by Darthadi
It's also possible that the ritual might not work on Kylo because he wouldn't strike Sidious in pure hatred and more for pragmatic reasons. Where was that indicated? Seems like tapping into dark sided emotions whilst striking Palpatine down was the only real "prerequisite" for the transfer.

I do wish we had more detail about Palpatine's essence transfer, though(namely what the actual requirements were.) Would make a lot of this SO much easier to discuss. ermm

Originally posted by Darthadi
Not to mention other factors like Kylo's superior mastery ,(compared with Rey) which could help resisting the essence transfer as well as the fact Kylo is not related by blood with Sheev. "Too much" Force mastery wasn't implied to have been a factor for Kylo not being chosen as a vessel.

But the genetic thing: that goes back to a theory of mine from earlier -- that perhaps Snoke simply couldn't be used as a vessel at all, because he was not a perfect/ideal replica of the original Palpatine bloodline. Rey, however, was.

Hence why Palpatine chose to wait for Rey specifically, and wasn't interested in any other potential hosts. /shrug

Originally posted by Darthadi
In TROS Sidious knew he only needed to wait a few hours/days to get Rey, so why risk trying to take over Kylo, when he ne needed him to bring Rey to Exegol. But Kylo had already been in the picture(at Snoke's side) for yearS prior to RoS. Yet even in all that time, Palpatine still evidently made no attempts to use Kylo as a vessel, despite continuously pushing him deeper into the dark side for most of his life.

The scene from RoS just illustrates what would have been *the* perfect opportunity to inhabit Kylo... But Palpatine still intentionally chose not to. Pretty hard to reconcile something like that, if Palpatine was indeed as desperate to find a host as some are saying.

Originally posted by Dominis
About that....
Was it actually meant to be taken that way, that Sidious also meant to inhabit Luke? After all, the proposal he makes to Rey, he also compares to his own ascension when he killed Plagueis, which didn't involve Plagueis body hopping.



Plus, he never even says anything about his spirit to Luke, he just says "strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete" which is kinda the same proposal except without his spirit being involved. Palpatine states that he had made the same proposal to Luke that he was making to Rey(ie. "I've made this very proposal before.", and that proposal was: "embrace the dark side, strike me down, and my essence will pass into you."

Palpatine of course did not explicitly mention the essence transfer thing to Luke, because the concept hadn't even been conceived of back when RotJ was originally released... But per new canon, it seems like Palpatine's intent was the same with Luke in RotJ that it was with Rey in RoS: he wanted to make them his vessel.

Or at least, that's how I interpreted the passage. /shrug

------

That said, I'd much rather prefer to think that specific/"perfect" genetic elements from Palpatine's own bloodline were required in a potential host body for the transfer to be successful. That would explain why the vessel could *only* be Rey, and would further reconcile why Palpatine never tried to hop into the likes of Snoke(because his genetics were too f*cked up from the onset), or Kylo(because his genetics didn't stem from the Palpatine bloodline at all.)

...But unfortunately that isn't irrefutably provable either.

That Sheev never sought to possess Kylo doesn't actually explain his reluctance to possess one of his many Snoke copies.

Per TROS lore, Kylo was being groomed as a Sith apprentice with Snoke as Sheev's proxy for Master
Kylo is also tempestuous and often unpredictable and possessing him would involve luring Kylo to Exegol
Unlike Kylo, Rey is a guaranteed optimal receptacle for Sheev's spirit due to identical genetic structure


I understand why in TROS Sheev preferred to wait for Rey over Kylo, even though the film and the novelizations do a shit job of explaining it adequately. You have to squint and scratch and infer explanations.

That said, Snoke is a different kettle of fish. Snoke was, at least prior to TROS, more powerful than Kylo. Snoke was a suboptimal phylactery in part due to his deformities and physical impairments and, more importantly, weaker Force potential than Rey... but Snoke is objectively a far superior physical specimen than the rotting corpse Sheev inhabited for decades. That's indisputable, incontrovertible fact.

So why then would Sheev choose to endure a miserable existence, trapped on Exegol for decades in a literal corpse, rotting and putrid, immobile, and maintained entirely through artificial means when he has a bunch of viable Snokes on hand who are products of the same experimentation that produced Rey's father and ultimately Rey herself, suggesting Snoke has some genetic compatibility with the Emperor?

The only viable explanation, of course... is that Snoke wasn't powerful enough to contain the Emperor's spirit. That the rotting corpse Sheev inhabited, shitty as it was, was a more durable reliquary for his spirit than any Snoke could be.

Now again, you might say: well undead Sheev is > ROTJ Sheev and perhaps you could make that case, but the evidence does indeed indicate that Snoke was incapable of containing Sheev's spirit and the rotting clone corpse was the only viable vessel for Sheev outside of Rey.

Originally posted by Galan007
The novel heavily implies that Palpatine intended to transfer his essence into Luke, though:


It was never indicated that Palpatine willingly refrained from using a Skywalker vessel, simply because he didn't like Skywalkers.

Said "hang up" I was referring to was being betrayed and killed by a Skywalker. Based on what he says and does when he kills Kylo, Sheev seems to be bearing quite a grudge against the Skywalker family.

Originally posted by Galan007
But where was it indicated that Palpatine despised Skywalkers to such an extent that he would rather transfer his essence into a deformed/mutated gimp, instead of a Skywalker..?

In fact, from Palpatine's POV I feel like possessing a Skywalker(and subsequently creating a mockery of the hope they once stood for) would please him quite a bit. /shrug

Except he doesn't simply take control of them, they become "one". Their consciousness joins the collective.

I think the "we will be one" part was a lie. Why would Sheev tell Rey that her spirit will be kicked out of her body?

Why is there any reason to believe it was a lie? His consciousness is, apparently, a collective of "all the Sith" it stands to reason the new host would join as well.

No evidence that "all the sith thing" is related to essence trsnsfer.

And it's not like "all the other sith" have a conscious of their own. Only they power was asimilated by Sidious.
Acording to starwars.com
"Though Sidious was a vessel of all the Sith's power..."

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The only viable explanation, of course... is that Snoke wasn't powerful enough to contain the Emperor's spirit. That is *a* viable explanation, sure. The *only* viable explanation, though? Not, imo. Like you said: the problem is that the film, novel, and supplementary material do a piss-poor job of explaining this shit with any sort of cohesive detail, so unfortunately all we can do is speculate.

That being said, I find it hard to completely rule-out the notion that Snoke was simply *too* genetically mutated/corrupted/abominated to be used as a proper vessel at all. Perhaps some of the cloned strandcasts were just too far gone to be used as receptacles, period -- less of a "can't contain your power", and more of a "can't receive your power in the first place" situation(like a phone without a SIM card.) /shrug

As you mentioned, we also cannot ignore the possibility that undead RoS Palpatine could have very well been more powerful than he was during RotJ -- which could be another reason why Snoke wasn't usable as a host, without capping Snoke himself below the level of RotJ Palpatine. /shrug x2


Regardless, lets say that Palpatine was indeed so desperate that he would have willingly transferred his essence into a gimpy Snoke clone, but couldn't(for whatever reason.) Why do you believe that he wouldn't have then immediately started trying to bring Kylo to Exegol and use him as a vessel instead -- if not when he was Luke's student, then certainly when he was Snoke's apprentice..? If he were truly desperate enough to use Snoke as a vessel, then transferring into Kylo(who would have actually been a suitable host) should have been a no-brainer.

That's why, as I said above, some of these plot-holes seem to indicate that specific/"perfect" genetic elements from Palpatine's own bloodline may have been required in a potential host body for the transfer to be successful... Which would help explain why Rey was evidently the *only* suitable host. /shrug x3

Originally posted by ares834
Except he doesn't simply take control of them, they become "one". Their consciousness joins the collective. Even if Palpatine did indeed contain the power/essences of all the Sith before him, it's pretty clear that Palpatine alone was in full control of them all -- the "dominant essence", if you will.

I highly doubt that would have changed if he'd transferred into Luke, Snoke, Rey, or Kylo.

Originally posted by Darthadi
No evidence that "all the sith thing" is related to essence trsnsfer.

Where did I say it was?

Originally posted by Darthadi
And it's not like "all the other sith" have a conscious of their own. Only they power was asimilated by Sidious.
Acording to starwars.com
"Though Sidious was a vessel of all the Sith's power..."

And according to Sidious in RoS, "all the Sith live in me". There is absolutely no reason to believe that he is lying.

Originally posted by Galan007
Even if Palpatine did indeed contain the power/essences of all the Sith before him, it's pretty clear that Palpatine alone was in full control of them all -- the "dominant essence", if you will.

I highly doubt that would have changed if he'd transferred into Luke, Snoke, Rey, or Kylo.

We don't know. He may very well be the dominant personality simply because it is his body. Either way, that's not an argument I ever made. My point is that Kylo would join the collective consciousness, not that he would be the dominant one.

Originally posted by Galan007
That is *a* viable explanation, sure. The *only* viable explanation, though? Not, imo. Like you said: the problem is that the film, novel, and supplementary material do a piss-poor job of explaining this shit with any sort of cohesive detail, so unfortunately all we can do is speculate.

Galan, respectfully, your reticence to accept my explanation appears to be motivated entirely by an attempt to defend the idea that Snoke ~ ROTJ Sheev.

Normally, this wouldn't be a problem, except this motivation is causing you to dismiss the most straightforward and defensible explanation for why a bunch of Snokes were left to tumble awkwardly in Sheev's test tube.

Now if you sincerely believe Snoke is ~ ROTJ Sheev, you're free to reconcile that with my explanation by concluding that, in the unknown time period between ROTJ and Snoke's creation, Sidious's power exceeded what a ROTJ Sheev/Snoke could contain. That's way to thread all your needles in a coherent, consistent way.



But there's no evidence of that.



Yes, if your goal is to preserve the idea that Snoke is ~ ROTJ Sheev, this is the only viable reconciliation, because the idea that Snoke is simply too weak to contain Sheev's spirit is the best and most supported explanation for why Sidious didn't body hop into one of the pickled Snokes he had on hand.



Snoke is a (1) blank receptacle (2) on hand (3) with genetic continuity, Kylo is (1) conscious, (2) not on hand, (3) with no genetic continuity. And possessing Snoke doesn't preclude a later attempt on Kylo if genetic continuity is not a factor.



Which was already addressed above. Even if you factor in a supposed genetic continuity requirement for the Emperor's possession, Snoke was created from the same program that produced Rey's father and ultimately Rey herself, with the same intent of housing Sheev's spirit.

Snoke is clearly not strong enough to contain the Emperor's spirit. It is by far the best and most plausible explanation and none of the proposed alternatives come close.

Originally posted by ares834
We don't know. He may very well be the dominant personality simply because it is his body. Either way, that's not an argument I ever made. My point is that Kylo would join the collective consciousness, not that he would be the dominant one. I'd say that Palpatine was undoubtedly the dominant essence.

Palpatine continuously referred to himself as "I"(in an individual sense), and repeatedly mentioned facts from his own personal backstory. Moreover, even when Rey glimpsed into Palpatine's mind, she only saw his thoughts; his past. No one else's. So it seems like Palpatine alone was definitely in control of all the power he held.

Right. If Palpatine had transferred his essence into Kylo, he would have become part of the 'Omni-Sith' collective, but Palpatine himself would have still, logically, been in complete control over his power(and vessel.)

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Galan, respectfully, your reticence to accept my explanation appears to be motivated entirely by an attempt to defend the idea that Snoke ~ ROTJ Sheev.

Normally, this wouldn't be a problem, except this motivation is causing you to dismiss the most straightforward and defensible explanation for why a bunch of Snokes were left to tumble awkwardly in Sheev's test tube.

Now if you sincerely believe Snoke is ~ ROTJ Sheev, you're free to reconcile that with my explanation by concluding that, in the unknown time period between ROTJ and Snoke's creation, Sidious's power exceeded what a ROTJ Sheev/Snoke could contain. That's way to thread all your needles in a coherent, consistent way.

But there's no evidence of that.

Yes, if your goal is to preserve the idea that Snoke is ~ ROTJ Sheev, this is the only viable reconciliation, because the idea that Snoke is simply too weak to contain Sheev's spirit is the best and most supported explanation for why Sidious didn't body hop into one of the pickled Snokes he had on hand.

Snoke is a (1) blank receptacle (2) on hand (3) with genetic continuity, Kylo is (1) conscious, (2) not on hand, (3) with no genetic continuity. And possessing Snoke doesn't preclude a later attempt on Kylo if genetic continuity is not a factor.

Which was already addressed above. Even if you factor in a supposed genetic continuity requirement for the Emperor's possession, Snoke was created from the same program that produced Rey's father and ultimately Rey herself, with the same intent of housing Sheev's spirit.

Snoke is clearly not strong enough to contain the Emperor's spirit. It is by far the best and most plausible explanation and none of the proposed alternatives come close. That's just it: this entire discussion hinges on theories and speculation, because we haven't been given any definitive answers in the source material released thus far. The ins-and-outs of essence transfer are still mostly unknown, and therefore open to interpretation.

I do agree that you and Sidious66/Dominus presented *a* possible explanation. I am simply pointing out that it isn't the *only* possible explanation... As you yourself seem to agree.

...And you also didn't answer my main question, which is really the crux of the "point" I am making:
Originally posted by Galan007
Regardless, lets say that Palpatine was indeed so desperate that he would have willingly transferred his essence into a gimpy Snoke clone, but couldn't(for whatever reason.) Why do you believe that he wouldn't have then immediately started trying to bring Kylo to Exegol and use him as a vessel instead -- if not when he was Luke's student, then certainly when he was Snoke's apprentice..? If he were truly desperate enough to use Snoke as a vessel, then transferring into Kylo(who would have actually been a suitable host) should have been a no-brainer.

To summarize: If Snoke was deemed an unsuitable vessel because he could not contain Palpatine's power(as you're saying), then why wouldn't Palpatine immediately put his effort into "acquiring" a FAR more suitable(arguably "perfect" host in Kylo?

Now, if you're saying that Palpatine didn't opt to inhabit Kylo's vessel due to some sort of lacking genetic prerequisites, then cool... We can have that discussion next.

Originally posted by Galan007
That's just it: this entire discussion hinges on theories and speculation, because we haven't been given any definitive answers in the source material released thus far. The ins-and-outs of essence transfer are still mostly unknown, and therefore open to interpretation.

I do agree that you and Sidious66/Dominus presented *a* possible explanation. I am simply pointing out that it isn't the *only* possible explanation... As you yourself seem to agree.

The only two alternative explanations that have been offered are:

Sheev could've jumped into Snoke but didn't because he was waiting on a perfect vessel (really dumb for the reasons described on the previous page)
Sheev would've jumped into Snoke but couldn't because Snoke was too corrupt? genetically dissimilar? which requires a number of unproven conditions to be accepted and flies in the face of available evidence since Snoke is a product of the same program that created Rey's father and, ultimately, Rey herself


My explanation is objectively far better than these alternatives. It requires the fewest number of assumptions and is the most concretely supported by the lore.



The lore implies Sidious had some sort of Sith purpose in mind for Kylo, perhaps as an apprentice to his reborn self. TROS Visual Dictionary and the Star Wars Book seem to indicate as much. We know from StarWars.com's databank that Sidious intended to take Rey as a vessel from the start despite his edict to Kylo that she die. Likely, then, Sheev intended to possess Rey and have Kylo as an apprentice. This would also explain why Sheev is pissed when he senses Leia has triggered Kylo's redemption.

Or perhaps there is indeed a genetic component. That has nothing to do with my point, which is that Snoke (a genetic offshoot of the Emperor, like Rey's father and Rey herself) is clearly too weak to serve as even an interim host for Sheev, which is why Sheev remains in his miserable undead form for decades.

Originally posted by ares834
Where did I say it was?
If the "all the sith thing" and the essence transfer ritual are not related you have no proof that Kylo/Rey would became part of the sith collective inside Sidious (if such a thing even exists)



The all the sith live in me is likely a metaphor for their power. We know that the sith can't live after death unless they have some sort of anchor or if they use essence transfer. 99% of the sith became one with the cosmic force after death (and before Sidious was even born) so Sheev couldn't possibly have their actual spirits inside of him.

One line (that is likely metaphor) in a movie is not enough to throw away decades of lore.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
And Galan is referring to this, fyi:

https://i.redd.it/l3qhaijd1bi41.png

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it in this thread yet (I'm not reading every post), but that doesn't conclusively state Snoke is Sheev's equal. Luke says "Snoke was not a Sith Lord, but his mastery of the dark side was equally impressive" - he is comparing Snoke to "a Sith Lord" and merely using Sheev as an example of a Sith, but he's not necessarily comparing Snoke to Sheev specifically. The quote is open-ended, so it cannot by itself support the claim that Snoke has parity with the Emperor. Not to mention that idea is looking all the more unlikely in light of Dominis and Tempest's arguments.

Youre forgetting the most important part of the quote.

"UNLIKE EMPEROR PALPATINE BEFORE HIM, Snoke was not a Sith Lord, but his mastery of the dark side was equally as impressive, and terrifying".

Luke is clearly drawing a direct comparison between Snoke and Sidious.

...that's the part where he cites Sheev as an example. Nothing you've said counteracts my point. I repeat:

Originally posted by Azronger
Not sure if anyone has mentioned it in this thread yet (I'm not reading every post), but that doesn't conclusively state Snoke is Sheev's equal. Luke says "Snoke was not a Sith Lord, but his mastery of the dark side was equally impressive" - he is comparing Snoke to "a Sith Lord" and merely using Sheev as an example of a Sith, but he's not necessarily comparing Snoke to Sheev specifically. The quote is open-ended, so it cannot by itself support the claim that Snoke has parity with the Emperor. Not to mention that idea is looking all the more unlikely in light of Dominis and Tempest's arguments.

Originally posted by Darthadi
If the "all the sith thing" and the essence transfer ritual are not related you have no proof that Kylo/Rey would became part of the sith collective inside Sidious (if such a thing even exists)

Other than the fact that he literally says that's the case...

Originally posted by Darthadi
The all the sith live in me is likely a metaphor for their power. We know that the sith can't live after death unless they have some sort of anchor or if they use essence transfer. 99% of the sith became one with the cosmic force after death (and before Sidious was even born) so Sheev couldn't possibly have their actual spirits inside of him.

One line (that is likely metaphor) in a movie is not enough to throw away decades of lore.

You make random ass assumptions to support your theory rather than follow what we are literally told on screen. The movie tells us that the Sith live in Sidious. If you have actual evidence to the contrary, provide it.

As for tossing out "decades of lore", that was explicitly done when the Jedi communed with Rey and gave her their power.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The only two alternative explanations that have been offered are:

Sheev could've jumped into Snoke but didn't because he was waiting on a perfect vessel (really dumb for the reasons described on the previous page)
Sheev would've jumped into Snoke but couldn't because Snoke was too corrupt? genetically dissimilar? which requires a number of unproven conditions to be accepted and flies in the face of available evidence since Snoke is a product of the same program that created Rey's father and, ultimately, Rey herself


My explanation is objectively far better than these alternatives. It requires the fewest number of assumptions and is the most concretely supported by the lore. I'll detail these possibilities a bit more later on, but there's also a plausible third alternative we've discussed: that undead RoS Palpatine > RotJ Palpatine. In that case, Snoke being unable to house the power of RoS Palpatine wouldn't preclude the notion that Snoke himself could still be on par with RotJ Palpatine.

*And to clarify, I couldn't care less what level of power Snoke wields. He could be TPM Palpatine-level, RotS Palpatine-level, or RotJ Palpatine-level -- doesn't matter to me in the slightest. I'm just explaining why I don't necessarily think he *has to* be capped below the level of RotJ Palpatine, simply because he wasn't used as a vessel.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The lore implies Sidious had some sort of Sith purpose in mind for Kylo, perhaps as an apprentice to his reborn self. TROS Visual Dictionary and the Star Wars Book seem to indicate as much. We know from StarWars.com's databank that Sidious intended to take Rey as a vessel from the start despite his edict to Kylo that she die. Likely, then, Sheev intended to possess Rey and have Kylo as an apprentice. This would also explain why Sheev is pissed when he senses Leia has triggered Kylo's redemption. But again: if Palpatine was so desperate to jump into another vessel that he'd actually be willing to inhabit the body of a crippled gimp, then it seems unlikely that he would be unwilling to possess Kylo, simply because he might've intended for Kylo to be his apprentice later on. This implies that Palpatine cared more for securing an apprentice than he cared for his own self-preservation... Which I have a hard time accepting for obvious reasons.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Or perhaps there is indeed a genetic component. That has nothing to do with my point, which is that Snoke (a genetic offshoot of the Emperor, like Rey's father and Rey herself) is clearly too weak to serve as even an interim host for Sheev, which is why Sheev remains in his miserable undead form for decades. Okay.

So if there was indeed a series of specific genetic components required in a clone body, of which had to be in place for the ritual to be successful(which I do agree is a possibility), then it goes back to points I've made earlier revolving around that subject:

Perhaps Snoke, being a grossly mutated strandcast(or "unnatural abomination", as the novel indicates), simply did not possess the cohesive/precise genetic structure that was required in a suitable vessel, and was therefore completely unusable in that capacity from the onset. So perhaps Palpatine simply could not even attempt to use him as a vessel at all(because the aforementioned genetic elements were lacking), and instead opted to use Snoke as a puppet while he waited for the "perfect" vessel, with the "perfect" genetic structure(ie. Rey), to fall into his hands.

Originally posted by Azronger


...that's the part where he cites Sheev as an example. Nothing you've said counteracts my point. I repeat: So you're saying what? That Luke was comparing Snoke's power to that of a random Sith that he'd never encountered?

Lol ok.....

Originally posted by Galan007
I'll detail these possibilities a bit more later on, but there's also a plausible third alternative we've discussed: that undead RoS Palpatine > RotJ Palpatine. In that case, Snoke being unable to house the power of RoS Palpatine wouldn't preclude the notion that Snoke himself could still be on par with RotJ Palpatine.

*And to clarify, I couldn't care less what level of power Snoke wields. He could be TPM Palpatine-level, RotS Palpatine-level, or RotJ Palpatine-level -- doesn't matter to me in the slightest. I'm just explaining why I don't necessarily think he *has to* be capped below the level of RotJ Palpatine, simply because he wasn't used as a vessel.

That's not a "third alternative," that's a potential contextualization of my conclusion, which is that Snoke is too weak to contain Sheev's spirit.

Regardless of whether Sheev's power increased negligibly, dramatically, or not at all between the time of his death at Endor and Snoke's creation, it is clear that Snoke's body is not viable to sustain the Emperor's spirit. Palpatine is more powerful than what Snoke is able to contain.

Once that fact is accepted, then Sidious66 and his opponents can discuss the implications this has for Snoke's relationship to ROTJ!Sheev's power.



I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. I don't have a position or a commitment as to why Sheev didn't try to possess Kylo, I'm simply explaining that the lore suggests Sheev was preparing to employ Kylo as an apprentice and not a vessel and speculating as to why that might be. This is one option that I have in no way committed to.



But this... has no evidence. There is an evidence-shaped void, distinct and howling.

We know Snoke is a product of the same program that created Rey and Rey's father.

We know Snoke was created with the intention of housing Sidious's spirit since that was the entire purpose of the program.

We know Snoke's body is in better condition than Sidious's clone body.

We know that Snoke is weaker than Sidious.

We know Sheev has inert copies of Snoke on hand.

From these facts, I conclude that Snoke was too weak to serve as the Emperor's vessel. This is why one was fished out of the aquarium to serve as a proxy/punching bag for his future apprentice and the others were left to list in their test tube.

This aligns far better with the available facts than your baseless assumption that Snoke, who was created with the purpose of serving as the Emperor's meatsuit, could have but didn't because idk maybe he's too genetically different?

I see what Tempest and galan are both saying, and I actually can't disagree with either of them.

The lack of detail provided on essence transfer (and the jumbled mess made of that ability in ROS) makes it really hard to decide what was actually needed in a body for Sidious to transfer himself into it.

Originally posted by ares834
Ummm... What? How does temporarily lending Kylo a fleet equate at all with sharing a conciseness for all eternity?
Ummmm that wasn’t my point?

Why would he let Kylo take over his fleet if he has “big hang ups” with the Skywalkers

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
I see what Tempest and galan are both saying, and I actually can't disagree with either of them.

The lack of detail provided on essence transfer (and the jumbled mess made of that ability in ROS) makes it really hard to decide what was actually needed in a body for Sidious to transfer himself into it.


But all of the available evidence suggests that Palpatine couldn't inhabit a Snoke strandcast due to them not being enough to sustain his spirit.

The example with Kylo Ren, IMO, doesn't hold up. Palpatine was never interested in inhabiting him from the beginning, so that would rule out his reason for not wanting Kylo as a vessel as being a special case not related to Snoke. In other words, just because we don't have an explanation for why he didn't want to use Kylo's body, doesn't mean we should toss out all the evidence that indicate Snoke's body was too weak for Palpatine.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Ummmm that wasn’t my point?

Why would he let Kylo take over his fleet if he has “big hang ups” with the Skywalkers?

Why are you asking this? The "question" I posed very obviously addresses this. It's because temporarily lending Kylo a fleet is irrelevant compared to spending eternity together.
Using Kylo a temporarily pawn? Fine. Having him as an everlasting roommate? Not so fine.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's not a "third alternative," that's a potential contextualization of my conclusion, which is that Snoke is too weak to contain Sheev's spirit.

Regardless of whether Sheev's power increased negligibly, dramatically, or not at all between the time of his death at Endor and Snoke's creation, it is clear that Snoke's body is not viable to sustain the Emperor's spirit. Palpatine is more powerful than what Snoke is able to contain.

Once that fact is accepted, then Sidious66 and his opponents can discuss the implications this has for Snoke's relationship to ROTJ!Sheev's power. Okay?

It is still a plausible third option, regardless. Because if undead RoS Palpatine is indeed > RotJ Palpatine, it makes sense that Snoke wouldn't be able to sustain his power.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. I don't have a position or a commitment as to why Sheev didn't try to possess Kylo, I'm simply explaining that the lore suggests Sheev was preparing to employ Kylo as an apprentice and not a vessel and speculating as to why that might be. This is one option that I have in no way committed to. You mentioned why Palpatine may have chosen not to transfer his essence into Kylo. I mentioned why that still doesn't make sense to me.

That's how these discussions work, no?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But this... has no evidence. There is an evidence-shaped void, distinct and howling.

We know Snoke is a product of the same program that created Rey and Rey's father.

We know Snoke was created with the intention of housing Sidious's spirit since that was the entire purpose of the program.

We know Snoke's body is in better condition than Sidious's clone body.

We know that Snoke is weaker than Sidious.

We know Sheev has inert copies of Snoke on hand.

From these facts, I conclude that Snoke was too weak to serve as the Emperor's vessel. This is why one was fished out of the aquarium to serve as a proxy/punching bag for his future apprentice and the others were left to list in their test tube.

This aligns far better with the available facts than your baseless assumption that Snoke, who was created with the purpose of serving as the Emperor's meatsuit, could have but didn't because idk maybe he's too genetically different? Heh. This sort of "vigor" reminds me of the good ol' days.

Anyway, that segment of my post was in response to the idea that specific/precise genetic components may have been required in a clone body in order for the ritual to be successful(which you *seemed* to agree might be possible.)

Therefore my subsequent response was directed solely toward that possibility. Nothing more.

-----------------

Anyway, I'm not saying that you guys are wrong here -- your conclusions may very well be correct. Again, I am just saying that other options could also be possible, given that we have not been provided with any definitive answers at this point.

Originally posted by Sheev
So you're saying what? That Luke was comparing Snoke's power to that of a random Sith that he'd never encountered?

Lol ok.....

No, I'm saying that he's not necessarily comparing Snoke to any particular Sith but merely positing he is of equivalent stature to them. Star Wars has dark side factions besides the Sith like the Inquisitors and other Dark Jedi, which Luke has encountered before, but they all pale in comparison to the Sith. Ergo, his appraisal of Snoke as a Sith Lord in all but name conveys his formidability in a general sense as among the highest echelons of dark siders, but Luke's not necessarily making a comparison to any individual Sith.