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No force use for Vader. Just light saber skill vs sword skill.

My only familiarity with Black Knight is how long he was frozen in the Dormammu/Loki arc of Defenders. What has he done to make him as skilled as the guy who is a better duelist than Sidious in canon?

what about white knight

thats racist

Originally posted by carthage
My only familiarity with Black Knight is how long he was frozen in the Dormammu/Loki arc of Defenders. What has he done to make him as skilled as the guy who is a better duelist than Sidious in canon?

sword fighting feats are sort of tough to come by in marvel. he is certainly considered the best swordsman in marvel, and has been called one of the greatest of all time. he's fast enough with the blade to parry laser fire regularly and easily like vader and is skilled enough to cleanly stalemate logan in a sword v claw match up. dane has never lost a sword fight afaik. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
No force use for Vader.

Force users use the Force to enhance their physicals, reactions, their saber prowess.

Impossible to say how good they'd be if they got disconnected from it.

You'd need to put them in an arena filled with Ysalamiri.

yeah i thought of that but figured vader could always used the force when he fights with the saber so it would be standard for him to use the force to enhance his skills. i was looking for standard portrayals of each.

Originally posted by leonidas
No force use for Vader. Just light saber skill vs sword skill. Are you trolling Galan Leo? If so, top notch! If not, why not?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Force users use the Force to enhance their physicals, reactions, their saber prowess.

Impossible to say how good they'd be if they got disconnected from it.

You'd need to put them in an arena filled with Ysalamiri.

Even the usage of a lightsaber was meant to be Force dependent, back in the day - it's weight (i.e. none) was very hard to deal with for normies.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah i thought of that but figured vader could always used the force when he fights with the saber so it would be standard for him to use the force to enhance his skills. i was looking for standard portrayals of each. Okay, so Vader just can't use offensive Force attacks like TK and whatnot, but can still use the Force as he normally would in a saber clash(ie. to enhance precog, speed, strength, stamina, etc.)?

In canon, Vader > Palpatine ~ Yoda in sabers... And Yoda had mastered every form of lightsaber combat throughout his lifetime. But it's really hard to say how Vader's swordsmanship would compare to guys from mainstream Marvel. The continuities are just so different.

yeah i agree 100%. wasn't sure if someone had an interesting take on things or if vader had ever gone up against a more traditional type of swordsman somewhere. i'm thinking of the recent season of mandalorian, just as an example of where my head is at, where mando held his own against Ahsoka briefly in melee.

just rewatched the clone wars s05e15 where viszla and maul had a truly epic (considered one of the great duels in star wars canon) battle. viszla, a mandalorian, was a very gifted warrior but not, imo, better than marvel's top guys. i think that fight goes to show a very skilled warrior can match jedi in straight swordplay. vader >maul, but with a blade i'd say dane>viszla so.... shrug

btw, the darksaber is awesome lol

Aged Obi-Wan cut down Maul in a single stroke though.

where did that happen? and like i said, i'm just using it as an example to show that a warrior/non-jedi can possibly match a jedi/sith in a straight duel. obviously vader could kill dane with a simple choke, but the ebony blade vs a lightsaber would be hella cool imo and i'm not sure dane couldn't hold his own here.

Originally posted by leonidas
where did that happen? I think he was referring to Star Wars Rebels. Obi Wan did cut down Maul in three strikes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeG215-yu-k
Though this scene has some extra context

Originally posted by leonidas
where did that happen? and like i said, i'm just using it as an example to show that a warrior/non-jedi can possibly match a jedi/sith in a straight duel. obviously vader could kill dane with a simple choke, but the ebony blade vs a lightsaber would be hella cool imo and i'm not sure dane couldn't hold his own here. Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I think he was referring to Star Wars Rebels. Obi Wan did cut down Maul in three strikes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeG215-yu-k
Though this scene has some extra context


My mistake, misremembered it.


What context?

Originally posted by leonidas
i think that fight goes to show a very skilled warrior can match jedi in straight swordplay.

https://i.imgur.com/mFfTBHT.jpg

Star Wars Tales #11.

Legends, but still.

Fett parried several of Vader's strikes.

That's even worse then Count Dooku being taken hostage by pirates.

Originally posted by cdtm
My mistake, misremembered it.


What context?

https://i.imgur.com/pY1MBqb.jpg

Originally posted by cdtm
My mistake, misremembered it.


What context?

It was more of a mental fight shown in the samurai style than a purely physical tussle:


The instinct would be, and probably, I admit, the expectation, is for some kind of prolonged lightsaber battle. But I've done a lot of prolonged lightsaber battles over the years and I think what's most important about any kind of confrontation is what's riding on it. What's the tension going into it? It starts to matter less and less how you swing a sword or how creatively you do it if there's not a lot riding on it.

It really is to express the difference between the Jedi and the Sith. Which is the Jedi become selfless and the Sith remain selfish. When pressed, because Obi-Wan is protecting someone else in the end, he does fight. But because he is so true and knows who he is in that moment, you can't defeat that. So Obi-Wan is going to strike down Maul because Maul is such a broken and lost person, which I think is why in the end you see Maul being cradled by Obi-Wan.

This idea is that Obi-Wan is willing to forgive this person who is so cruel and terrible because he feels pity for him. To his dying breath Maul is hoping there will be some revenge exacted upon his enemies. And in my mind, Obi-Wan expresses sadness there because that means that Maul has never grown and will never be released from his suffering. So I felt that moment had to be beyond a lightsaber fight and had to be more an expression of their characters.



https://screencrush.com/star-wars-rebels-maul-kenobi-duel-ending/

And, as stated above, Maul hoped to get Kenobi killed the same way he did with Jinn:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EP6RvfGWsAAcZgx.jpg

Obviously, Kenobi was ready for that.


But in the end, even if we consider all the interviews and articles about the fight, Obi-Wan was clearly superior, as Filoni himself confirmed:

Obi-Wan doesn't want to fight Darth Maul. I think that's hard for people to understand. Some people think that what they want is a big, long lightsaber fight. To what end? Every time Maul would block or parry Obi-Wan Kenobi would mean that he is his equal, and I just don't think he is.

https://www.starwars.com/news/dave-filoni-interview-star-wars-rebels-season-three

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
https://i.imgur.com/pY1MBqb.jpg


Where does this come from?

Is it fan theory, or has someone official spoken that this was the intent?

Originally posted by cdtm
Where does this come from?

Is it fan theory, or has someone official spoken that this was the intent? It comes from Ultimate Star Wars (2019)
But like Stilt said, Even though there is some extra context aged Obi Wan was still clearly superior to Maul

Originally posted by cdtm
Where does this come from?

Is it fan theory, or has someone official spoken that this was the intent?

It's official:

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
It was more of a mental fight shown in the samurai style than a purely physical tussle:


The instinct would be, and probably, I admit, the expectation, is for some kind of prolonged lightsaber battle. But I've done a lot of prolonged lightsaber battles over the years and I think what's most important about any kind of confrontation is what's riding on it. What's the tension going into it? It starts to matter less and less how you swing a sword or how creatively you do it if there's not a lot riding on it.

It really is to express the difference between the Jedi and the Sith. Which is the Jedi become selfless and the Sith remain selfish. When pressed, because Obi-Wan is protecting someone else in the end, he does fight. But because he is so true and knows who he is in that moment, you can't defeat that. So Obi-Wan is going to strike down Maul because Maul is such a broken and lost person, which I think is why in the end you see Maul being cradled by Obi-Wan.

This idea is that Obi-Wan is willing to forgive this person who is so cruel and terrible because he feels pity for him. To his dying breath Maul is hoping there will be some revenge exacted upon his enemies. And in my mind, Obi-Wan expresses sadness there because that means that Maul has never grown and will never be released from his suffering. So I felt that moment had to be beyond a lightsaber fight and had to be more an expression of their characters.



https://screencrush.com/star-wars-rebels-maul-kenobi-duel-ending/

And, as stated above, Maul hoped to get Kenobi killed the same way he did with Jinn:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EP6RvfGWsAAcZgx.jpg

Obviously, Kenobi was ready for that.


But in the end, even if we consider all the interviews and articles about the fight, Obi-Wan was clearly superior, as Filoni himself confirmed:

Obi-Wan doesn't want to fight Darth Maul. I think that's hard for people to understand. Some people think that what they want is a big, long lightsaber fight. To what end? Every time Maul would block or parry Obi-Wan Kenobi would mean that he is his equal, and I just don't think he is.

https://www.starwars.com/news/dave-filoni-interview-star-wars-rebels-season-three











tl;dr ---


Filoni pointed toward Kyuzo, master swordsman of Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai, as inspiration for Obi-Wan reluctantly accepting (and ending) the duel with knowledge of its quick outcome. As explained in post-show Rebels Recon, the duel also ends with Maul attempting the same hilt bash move that led to Qui-Gon Jinn's death in The Phantom Menace, though the elder Kenobi anticipates and strikes through it.


Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
It comes from Ultimate Star Wars (2019)
But like Stilt said, Even though there is some extra context aged Obi Wan was still clearly superior to Maul

Yeah.

No matter how we look at it, Kenobi has bested Maul.

Originally posted by cdtm
That's even worse then Count Dooku being taken hostage by pirates.

Jango was the best bounty hunter in the galaxy and Boba was supposed to surpass him in every conceivable way.

He is not a fodder pirate; he eats those for breakfast and shits out Iron Fist villains.

But it's sure embarrassing for Vader, especially since Boba ignited his saber for the first time and started blocking Anakin's blows from a very bad position (he was knocked down on his butt and in the process of getting up...).

that is....an impressive find stilt.

i think it goes to show that dane (who i feel confident saying is a FAR better sword duellist than even boba) has a chance here. and like i said, ebony blade v lightsaber would be cool. i wonder if the ebony blade could actually cut the saber blade? anyone know if a saber's light blade has ever been cut? we know magic can act as a threat to jedi (see maul's witch mom and sidious) so there is at least some precedence. i find this match up interesting for all kinds of reasons. lol

Originally posted by leonidas
anyone know if a saber's light blade has ever been cut?

https://tinyurl.com/y3ojhoqj

But that's cortosis with unique conductive properties.

Then again, Ebony Blade is not exactly a conventional weapon, either (it deflected Zeus' lightning back at him and stuff like that).



Also, in Star Wars: Attack of the Clones: The Visual Dictionary, sabers powered by synthetic crystals were said to be able to "cut" sometimes through the ones powered by natural crystals...



But nothing shown in movies or anywhere else supports that and it counts as Legends now, anyway (same with that cortosis panel).

huh. but yeah, the blade has some crazy feats vs energy and magic. not that that's what i'm looking for here. still, interesting. if dane cut through the saber, it would only piss vader off and he would have no defense against a more generalized force attack.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
https://tinyurl.com/y3ojhoqj

But that's cortosis with unique conductive properties.

Then again, Ebony Blade is not exactly a conventional weapon, either (it deflected Zeus' lightning back at him and stuff like that).



Also, in Star Wars: Attack of the Clones: The Visual Dictionary, sabers powered by synthetic crystals were said to be able to "cut" sometimes through the ones powered by natural crystals...



But nothing shown in movies or anywhere else supports that and it counts as Legends now, anyway (same with that cortosis panel). Cortosis is still a thing in canon as well, and it basically does the same thing to sabers: essentially redirecting the energy of a lightsaber back into itself, causing it to momentarily shut down.

Originally posted by Galan007
Cortosis is still a thing in canon as well, and it does essentially the same thing to sabers: essentially redirecting the energy of a lightsaber back into itself, causing it to momentarily shut down.

Thanks, Galan Good to know.

Originally posted by leonidas
i think it goes to show that dane (who i feel confident saying is a FAR better sword duellist than even boba) has a chance here.

I think Whitman is overrated as f*ck, honestly

But yeah, hard to disagree here --- fencing has never been Boba's or Jango's thing, who are more known for their general skill level and versatility rather than their blades mastery.

Originally posted by leonidas
not that that's what i'm looking for here. still, interesting.

It's the closest thing I could think of.

There are weapons that can stand up to lightsabers in combat, but I can't think of anything that has or could actually cut through those energy blades.

That's just not how Star Wars works.

Making it short-circuit, damaging the hilt or submerging it in water* are the ways to disable the lightsaber.




*And even then, there was Kit Fisto, whose custom lightsaber worked underwater just fine.

Originally posted by leonidas
just rewatched the clone wars s05e15 where viszla and maul had a truly epic (considered one of the great duels in star wars canon) battle. viszla, a mandalorian, was a very gifted warrior but not, imo, better than marvel's top guys. i think that fight goes to show a very skilled warrior can match jedi in straight swordplay. vader >maul, but with a blade i'd say dane>viszla so.... shrug

btw, the darksaber is awesome lol Vizsla was really skilled for a non-Force user. But either way, you could get pretty crazy with the scaling.

For example- as of TCW S07, Ahsoka was already in Maul's tier... And 15 years later(during Rebels), Ahsoka was stated to be "vastly more skilled" than she was during TCW... Yet Vader still beat her decisively in Rebels.

IOW, Vader > Rebels Ahsoka >> TCWS07 Ahsoka ~ TCWS07 Maul(and this was arguably Maul's peak as a swordsman.)


Or like others have mentioned: there's also the Vader/Kenobi/Maul scaling to consider.

For instance, Kenobi himself admitted on multiple occasions that he had NO chance of defeating Vader during ANH:

*And that was basically the same Kenobi who casually three-pieced Maul in Rebels.

So based on that we could also say: Vader >> ANH Kenobi >> Rebels Maul.


Vader is... Ridiculously skilled. But like I said earlier, I still don't know how his skill would compare to the upper-end swordsmen from mainstream Marvel. /shrug

@leo

Well, there was also The Father doing this to Anakin's lightsaber:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11120/111205740/5465393-8493935939-1bn9e.gif

But that's not what you're looking for, either, considering that the Mortis trio were all basically Force "gods", capable of extraordinary feats.

Originally posted by leonidas
that is....an impressive find stilt.

i think it goes to show that dane (who i feel confident saying is a FAR better sword duellist than even boba) has a chance here. and like i said, ebony blade v lightsaber would be cool. i wonder if the ebony blade could actually cut the saber blade? anyone know if a saber's light blade has ever been cut? we know magic can act as a threat to jedi (see maul's witch mom and sidious) so there is at least some precedence. i find this match up interesting for all kinds of reasons. lol

I say it could cut the lighsaber blade.

At the end of the day, it's just an energy loop, right? And the Blade has cut through that plenty of times.

i agree but that would be the worst thing that could happen for dane

hey stilt, what of we replaced dane with ogun....? dane is mostly rep and talk and his great sword feats are few and far between. ogun has more history. let's give ogun the darksaber. how does he do?

Ogun is f*cking ridiculous --- even for comic standards.

His skill level is so high, he was dangerous even when possessing a fat woman.

Then you have him in Major Sharp's injured body, stalemating Sinister.