Knightfall Vader vs prime suit Vader.

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Darthadi
-Canon.
-All quotes that directly compare them are banned for this thread.

Scizard
Are you asking who's better w/o statements? I would go with KFV if so. Otherwise suited Vader.

Darthadi
Statements are fine if they aren't directly compared.
So Vader being stated more powerful than Dooku and Maul stands, but Vader being stated more powerful than Anakin wouldn't.

Scizard
I see. I mean you've got statements saying Vader is the most powerful Sith depends if you buy them or not. Most of the high tiers in the OT scale to Vader and KFV's a beast so I don't think you can get suited Vader that high w/o the LOTS statement or the Vader > Palpatine statements.

xPRIMEx

qwertyuiop1998
I would say prime suit Vader.
From what I can recall it never stated Vader was weakened when he was put in his suit. On the contrary, Many materials seemingly suggesting prime suit vader > his previous self
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-2016/TPB-2-Part-4?id=168733#52

Darthadi
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I would say prime suit Vader.
From what I can recall it never stated Vader was weakened when he was put in his suit. On the contrary, Many materials seemingly suggesting prime suit vader > his previous self
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-2016/TPB-2-Part-4?id=168733#52

For this thread all quotes that compare them are banned.

qwertyuiop1998
Originally posted by Darthadi
For this thread all quotes that compare them are banned. So just feats and non-directly statements then? If so, I still personally tend to suited vader. Knightfall Vader doesnt have enough feats and statements to put him above suited vader so far imo

Darthadi
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So just feats and non-directly statements then? If so, I still personally tend to suited vader. Knightfall Vader doesnt have enough feats and statements to put him above suited vader so far imo
He doesn't have many feats, but his high end feats are really high. Like stomping Dooku once he let go his jedi restraint.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Darthadi
He doesn't have many feats, but his high end feats are really high. Like stomping Dooku once he let go his jedi restraint.


Well Suited Vader is also said to be light years ahead of Dooku.

But hes also just done insane shit in the comics which KF Anakin just doesnt have the feats to match.

Darthadi
I don't want to argue in my own threat, but do you think these comic feats better than stomping Dooku?

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Darthadi
I don't want to argue in my own threat, but do you think these comic feats better than stomping Dooku?

Well hes already stated to be beyond Dooku.

But if we are just talking Anakin in general now, then overpowering the Son and Daughter is the most impressive thing he did. Not stomping Dooku.

Vader could likely do the latter, but not the former.

Scizard
Yeah they're both >> Dooku.

xPRIMEx

Darth Thor

xPRIMEx

Scizard
Palpatine says in the junior novelization that he won't be as strong as he once thought but still more powerful than anyone else and there's the scan of him having 20,000+ midichlorians more than any Jedi or Sith.

So I would say he lost some but still has a significant amount.

StiltmanFTW
Retarded midichlorians mathematics.

ares834

Galan007

Darthadi
The knowledge thing still doesn't make sense when you look at Anakin's growth pre Mustafar when he had even less knowledge than he had as Vader (Luke's growth is another example of this). Based on his performance against Dooku he was already Yoda/ROTS Sidious tier or at least close. Yet during the OT he was stomped by Sidious.

Not to mention that knowledge doesn't mean power as evidentiated by Jocasta Nu. This coupled with Palpatine's dialogue in the comics (both 2015 and 2017) make me belive that Vader lost potential. It's the only way the story makes any sense imo.

I obviously disagree about anyone having potential even close to Anakin, but we went over this in that other threat.

xPRIMEx
Originally posted by Galan007
Chee stated that grievous injuries(like those suffered by Maul and Vader) do not diminish their strength in the Force:
https://ibb.co/n6P1Qbn

Aside from that, Vader's 20,000+ midi-chlorian count was still the highest among Jedi or Sith as of Rebels:
https://ibb.co/BN756c3

Hence why Palpatine was still "wary" of Vader's potential, and wanted to ensure that he would stay a loyal dog:
https://ibb.co/Cmr7D4V

tl;dr
There hasn't been any reference in canon that Vader's potential diminished after the events of RotS. What we do know is that Vader's connection to the Force was greater than ever once he acclimated to the armor:

*And that was still pre-prime Vader.


As for why Vader never transcended Palpatine, I'd say it's fairly obvious: Palpatine simply never allowed it to happen. He was only feeding Vader just enough knowledge/teachings to keep him subservient and wanting more, whilst incessantly hoarding all the Force-related knowledge that he could get his hands on.

Lord Momin mused that Palpatine was hoarding knowledge:
https://ibb.co/K9MWv8m

Vader himself also believed that Palpatine was keeping knowledge to himself, and only giving him "busy work":
https://ibb.co/t2q4W2L

The Star Wars Book states:
"With his position as Emperor Palpatine secure, Sidious largely disappears from public view, leaving the running of his regime to underlings. This allows him to focus on Sith arcana..."

There are more examples, but I'm sure you get my point. Vader was essentially given the equivalent of a children's flip-book to read through, while Palpatine was studying an entire library.

And thanks to the ST (lol), the indication seems to be that the potential of the Palpatine bloodline is at least in the same ballpark as the Skywalker bloodline(*looks at Rey*.) So if Palpatine was hoarding/studying a vast amount of knowledge for decadeS, while Vader was only given a small trickle here and there, the gap between them could really never be bridged, imo. Palpatine already started off at a much higher level than Anakin/Vader, by all accounts had a similar (albeit slightly inferior) potential, and most importantly: had the means to retain that gap in power by way of incessant knowledge-hoarding, along with getting to pick and choose which tidbits he fed Vader.
Ok cool, thanks

Galan007
Originally posted by Darthadi
The knowledge thing still doesn't make sense when you look at Anakin's growth pre Mustafar when he had even less knowledge than he had as Vader (Luke's growth is another example of this). Based on his performance against Dooku he was already Yoda/ROTS Sidious tier or at least close. Yet during the OT he was stomped by Sidious. RotS Anakin was Sidious/Yoda-tier in sabers, perhaps. In the Force, however, Palpatine would have trounced him.

But again, Palpatine didn't remain stagnant and at a fixed level over the years. He spent the decades between RotS and the OT incessantly hoarding knowledge and expanding his power... Hence the ease in which he raped Vader in the ESB era.

But even if we highball OT Vader, and assume that his power increased to the point where he was beyond RotS Palpatine, the scaling would still be:
OT Palpatine >> prime OT Vader > RotS Palpatine > RotS Vader.

As mentioned: Vader's power did increase significantly after RotS... Palpatine's power simply increased more. The gap between them couldn't be bridged, because Palpatine just didn't allow it. He only gave Vader an appetizer(at the most), while keeping the main course all to himself. IOW, Vader's growth was limited/governed by the small trickle of knowledge that Palpatine was actually willing to provide from time to time, while Palpatine himself was obviously not restrained in such a way.

The notion that Vader's insane potential means that his power can just perpetually creep to infinity without any sort of "continuing education" has always been weird to me. /shrug

Originally posted by Darthadi
Not to mention that knowledge doesn't mean power as evidentiated by Jocasta Nu. Jocasta was basically a human archive/computer who retained the knowledge she acquired, but never attempted to use it in any meaningful way(increasing her power was never Jocasta's prerogative.)

Palpatine, however, was knowledge-hoarding for the sole purpose of massively expanding his power -- and he absolutely had the prowess to apply that knowledge in a practical way.

That said, we do know that knowledge = power in cases where the Jedi/Sith in question is actively using that knowledge in an effort to further their power/skill. Aside from Palpatine, we've seen it mostly in prodigies like Dooku, Luke, and Rey, as well as certain characters in the High Republic.

Originally posted by Darthadi
This coupled with Palpatine's dialogue in the comics (both 2015 and 2017) make me belive that Vader lost potential. It's the only way the story makes any sense imo. Certain aspects of Vader were diminished after RotS. He lost the ability to produce FL, for example, and also lost mobility due to the armor's bulk.

But in terms of his raw/latent Force potential? No, nothing explicitly suggests that it was gimped. To the contrary, a few sources heavily imply that his potential was still intact.

Darthadi
TBH, I don't think we will ever agree on this subject, at last not until we have more evidence.
Anakin stomping Dooku would put him in ROTS Sidious tier or close even in power imo via force augumentation. In general, i belive that lightsaber combat is a good proxy for power.

As for the knowledge thing. Luke grew hugely during the OT with very limited knowledge (his knowledge was close to zero compared to Vader). I don't think vast knowledge is necessarily a requirement. And is not like Vader was not extremly knowledgeable himself.
In general, battlefield action was a better way to grow in raw power than acumulating knowledge as shown during the clone wars.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Galan007

tl;dr
There hasn't been any reference in canon that Vader's potential diminished after the events of RotS.


Yeah but Disney doesnt get to rewrite Lucas canon. If they did they probably would have decanonised a lot more from the start. Remember they did decanonise the old EU but not TCW.

Hes still the creator of the OT and PT, as such his movie commentary (still available on the OT/PT Blu-Rays) should count as legitimate director commentary (at the very least). But in reality his interpretation of the story will always hold more weight than a Rian Johnson or a JJ Abrams.

Galan007
Pretty sure GL also had OT Vader below the likes of TPM Qui-Gon and Maul.

Safe to assume that his opinion on Vader is no longer valid in Disney canon.

xPRIMEx

Darthadi
Evidence for Vader keeping his full potential post Mustafar?
All I see is evidence for Vader being more powerful which is a different thing.

Darthadi
My biggest problem is that it makes no sense whatsoever for Vader to not lose any potential and yet for Luke to be his equal in ROTJ. It just doesn't add up.

At this point, I think the problem is trying to form a cohesive narrative using random sourcebook quotes, but at the same time you can't just arbitrary dismiss quotes.

xPRIMEx

xPRIMEx
Since the new canon raised Vader, they had to do the same for Luke in order to explain how he was able to fight evenly with him in ROTJ. The result is a Jedi with only 4 years of training that is on the same level as one of the most powerful force users of all time. Lol.

Darthadi
I guess he can still have more midichlorians per cell than everyone else (after all losing body parts logically doesn't decrease how many midichlorians per cell he has), and still less potential than before because of other reasons like psyhological trauma or something.

Darthadi
Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Since the new canon raised Vader, they had to do the same for Luke in order to explain how he was able to fight evenly with him in ROTJ. The result is a Jedi with only 4 years of training that is on the same level as one of the most powerful force users of all time. Lol.

And if Vader never lost potential it would mean that in 20+ years since ROTS he grew less than Luke in 4 years despite having better training, better knowledge and at the bare minimum the same potential (and potentialy even greater). As I said, it doesn't add up.

Galan007
Originally posted by Darthadi
At this point, I think the problem is trying to form a cohesive narrative using random sourcebook quotes, but at the same time you can't just arbitrary dismiss quotes. Correct. You cannot arbitrarily dismiss any canonical sources, because all officially published/licensed material is on equal footing in terms of canonicity these days. There aren't necessarily "levels of canon" anymore.

The only way a source can be rendered invalid, is if it is contradicted/retconned by more recent canon material.

Originally posted by Darthadi
I guess he can still have more midichlorians per cell than everyone else (after all losing body parts logically doesn't decrease how many midichlorians per cell he has), and still less potential than before because of other reasons like psyhological trauma or something. Based on what legitimate evidence did Vader lose potential, though? If that is your personal opinion, then so be it... All I'm saying is that multiple sources heavily imply that his raw/latent potential was still intact after the events of RotS.

Originally posted by Darthadi
And if Vader never lost potential it would mean that in 20+ years since ROTS he grew less than Luke in 4 years despite having better training, better knowledge and at the bare minimum the same potential (and potentialy even greater). As I said, it doesn't add up. This side of the argument has nothing to do with Vader's potential, tbf... You're just talking about actualized power here.

And per Disney canon: OT Vader > RotS Vader(it's really not debatable.) So yes, I agree that Luke even being in Vader's ballpark with only a scant few years of training(even though he actually did quite a bit of training in that time, when you factor in ALL supplementary material), is still asinine... But it is what it is. You've just gotta accept it at some point. /shrug

That said, Snoke's comment in TLJ is probably the best way to reconcile Luke's exponential growth:
"Darkness rises and light to meet it... I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise."

The Force is all about balance. When there's a massive imbalance(particularly towards the dark side), the Force naturally seeks to "course-correct" by way of proxies(like Luke.) That could explain why Luke was able to skyrocket up the ladder in such a short period of time... Will of the cosmic Force and all that.

Darthadi
I just think there is a huge disconect between what some of thse sources implie and what we see in the actual story. While all sources are oficially equal, I think in practice that is rarely the case. I still don't want to dismiss quotes arbitrary tho. It's complicated.

Just look at Ahsoka vs Vader in Rebels. She was able to contend with him better than ROTS Ahdoka would have done against ROTS Anakin (being sub Maul vs stomping Dooku). Does Ahsoka have Anakin+ potential since she reduced the gap?

Actualised power is relevant since it shows how much Vader grew in a given time. Power growth is strongly corrlated to potential. It's hard to belive that Vader kept his potential when his growth post ROTS is not that impressive compared to his growth before. Anakin in 3 years went from being fodder to Dooku to being Dooku+. Vader after 20 years of growing at that rate should handwave someone like Kenobi casually.

Vader being >ROTS Anakin in power has nothing to do with potential.

Darthadi
I don't thonk the Snoke quote is really aplicable here. Rey equalled Kylo so fast because of the Dyad. She just downloaded everything, lol.

Galan007
Originally posted by Darthadi
I just think there is a huge disconect between what some of thse sources implie and what we see in the actual story. While all sources are oficially equal, I think in practice that is rarely the case. I still don't want to dismiss quotes arbitrary tho. It's complicated. Yeah, official sources can't just be dismissed. ALL material needs to be regarded as valid, until proven otherwise.

Originally posted by Darthadi
Just look at Ahsoka vs Vader in Rebels. She was able to contend with him better than ROTS Ahdoka would have done against ROTS Anakin (being sub Maul vs stomping Dooku). Does Ahsoka have Anakin+ potential since she reduced the gap? Rebels Ahsoka was "vastly more skilled" than she was during TCW(wherein she already had some parity with Maul):
https://i.ibb.co/m89L3V3/2.jpg

Yet Vader still solidly dominated her in both "rounds" of their fight. So I'm not sure what that proves, tbh?

Originally posted by Darthadi
It's hard to belive that Vader kept his potential when his growth post ROTS is not that impressive compared to his growth before. Anakin in 3 years went from being fodder to Dooku to being Dooku+. Vader after 20 years of growing at that rate should handwave someone like Kenobi casually. As I said earlier: Vader's post-RotS growth was essentially limited/governed by the small trickle of knowledge that Palpatine was actually willing to provide from time to time. He still became more powerful over the years, but he never became *as* powerful as he could have been if he wouldn't have been 'restrained' in such a way.

I'll post this again:
https://i.ibb.co/C9bzT9P/z4ek7aP.jpg
Even Vader believed that Palpatine was only providing him with the select bits of information/knowledge that he cherry-picked, and primarily giving him the equivalent of "busy work" in between.

Godly potential or not, even Vader can't just keep power-creeping towards infinity if he isn't provided with the means to do so.

Originally posted by Darthadi
I don't thonk the Snoke quote is really aplicable here. Rey equalled Kylo so fast because of the Dyad. She just downloaded everything, lol. She was still "awakened" as a result of the Force attempting to balance itself, which is what Snoke was speaking to when he said: "Darkness rises and light to meet it... I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise."

Think it's logical to assume that Luke was used by the cosmic Force in a similar way. /shrug

Darthadi
1. If we take any quote at face value Vader is more powerful than Palpatine as of Fallen Order.

2.You missed my point
Anakin>>>>>Ahsoka as of ROTS (being sub Maul vs stomping Dooku)
Vader >>> Rebels Ahsoka
As you can see the gap is smaller in Rebels. This means that Ahsoka grew faster than Vader. And knowledge is not a valid excuse when Vader is well ahead of Tano in that.

3. Vader post ROTS still has vastly greater knowledge than pre ROTS yet his growt was far slower. Knowledge is not an excuse here.
And, no Vader's power wouldn't just powercreep towards infinity if Vader was just standing doing nothing. But he was fighting constantly (which as we saw in CW helps force users to grow a lot) and meditated often.

And it's not like Vader was some rudimentar assassin. He knew advanced stuff like capturing the GI spirit with some sort of sorcery. You exagerate this limitation. Palpatine not telling him all his secrets doesn't mean that Vader's training is limited. If that would be the case, no apprentice would ever surpass their master.

4. Snoke is not omniscient. The reason of Rey being Kylo's equal is the dyad. Maybe the will of the force made them a dyad as a mean to rebalance the force so Snoke was right in a way, but she didn't grow just like that because balance.

Galan007
Originally posted by Darthadi
1. If we take any quote at face value Vader is more powerful than Palpatine as of Fallen Order. Multiple sources state that Vader was the most powerful Sith... But that was all contradicted/retconned by the recent comic where Palpatine casually raped him. Although, we've always known that ESB Palpatine > Vader, otherwise Vader wouldn't have tried to recruit Luke for the sole purpose of helping him destroy Palpatine(if Vader could have done it himself, he logically would have.)

Conversely, there are no canon sources explicitly stating that Vader's potential was gimped as a result of his injuries, hence no contradiction has been conveyed in that regard(at this point, at least.) See what I'm saying?

Originally posted by Darthadi
2.You missed my point
Anakin>>>>>Ahsoka as of ROTS (being sub Maul vs stomping Dooku)
Vader >>> Rebels Ahsoka
As you can see the gap is smaller in Rebels. This means that Ahsoka grew faster than Vader. And knowledge is not a valid excuse when Vader is well ahead of Tano in that. I honestly don't even know what your point is here?

Rebels Ahsoka was vastly more skilled than she was during TCW(she could have been > Dooku by this point for all we know... "Vastly" is an ambiguous term that just implies a massive amount of growth), yet Vader still stomped her decisively -- took him under 2 minutes to beat her in the first round, and under 1 minute to beat her in the second round.

In no way, shape, or form does Vader's fight against Ahsoka diminish him.

Originally posted by Darthadi
3. Vader post ROTS still has vastly greater knowledge than pre ROTS yet his growt was far slower. Knowledge is not an excuse here.
And, no Vader's power wouldn't just powercreep towards infinity if Vader was just standing doing nothing. But he was fighting constantly (which as we saw in CW helps force users to grow a lot) and meditated often.

And it's not like Vader was some rudimentar assassin. He knew advanced stuff like cspturing the GI spirit with some sort of sorcery. You exagerate this limitation. Palpatine not telling him all his secrets doesn't mean that Vader's training is limited. You're missing the point entirely.

Vader certainly became more powerful over the years -- I have never contested this. What I am saying is that his growth was limited/hindered by the small trickle of knowledge/teachings that Palpatine was actually willing to provide. In essence, Vader could only become as powerful as Palpatine *allowed* him to become, while Palpatine himself was not restrained or governed in the same way.

As mentioned: godly potential or not, even Vader can't just perpetually power-creep towards infinity if he isn't provided with the means to keep ascending.

Originally posted by Darthadi
4. Snoke is not omniscient. The reason of Rey being Kylo's equal is the dyad. Maybe the will of the force made them a dyad as a mean to rebalance the force so Snoke was right in a way, but she didn't grow just like that because balance. I am not comparing Luke to Rey, lol.

I am simply using the fact Snoke provided(ie. that the Force naturally seeks to balance itself) to try and reconcile why Luke was able to reach Vader's tier with his limited(by comparison) amount of training. "Darkness rises, and light to meet it."

Imo, Luke's exponential growth makes more sense from the standpoint that he was a proxy of the cosmic Force itself -- a tool forged to correct a great imbalance. /shrug

Darthadi
1. The new comic doesn't contradict Vader>Palps as of FO. Different time period. If we take the quote at face value Vader surpassed Sheev during that time period.

While there is not direct confirmation for Vader losing potential, it was implied by multiple characters to be the case in the comics and even the sequel movies.

2. Anakin would have stomped ROTS Ahsoka worse than Vader defeated Rebels Ahsoka (a 2 minutes fight is not a stomp).
This means that the gap is smaller in Rebels which means that the gap between Rebels Ahsoka and ROTS Ahsoka is larger than the gap between Rebels Vader and Anakin. Ergo, Vader's growth was slower than Ahsoka's. And in this case knowledge is not a valid excuse as Vader is superior to Tano in this departament.

3. And my point is that Palpatine keeping secrets from Vader is not a plausible explanation for the huge gap demonstrated in the comics (which is far greater than the gap in ROTS based on Yoda/Dooku scaling).

Knowledge is a factor for growth for sure, but not the only factor. Spiritual growth, biological potential, willpower and fighting experience are just as important and Vader had them all.

All masters keep secrets from their apprentices (it's not something specific to Sidious) but they still often get surpassed if the apprentice have the potential to do so. In Vader's case not only that he didn't surpass Sheev, but he was not even close. The gap even got larger post ROTS despite Sheev being far older (so he would hit diminished returns).

4. I get it. I'm just saying that Luke's situation is different. With Rey we know that the force's way to reestablish balance was creating the dyad so the download thing can happen. It's a stupid explanation but it is something. With Luke there is nothing so far. I agree that it would make more sense than Luke just growing that much naturally tho.

xPRIMEx

xPRIMEx

Darthadi
Anakin stomped Dooku who is well sbove CW Ahsoka

Darthadi
Ahsoka didn't had more resources than Vader. On knowledge they are not even comparable. There is no evidence for Ahsoka having even above average knowledge considering that the empire took most of the resources.

Even the GI was allowed to study the secrets of the jedi (the ones Jocasta alowed only masters to acces). And Vader's level of knowledge far surpassed the inquisitors as Sidious intented.
And again. Knowledge =/=power.

Galan007
Originally posted by Darthadi
1. The new comic doesn't contradict Vader>Palps as of FO. Different time period. If we take the quote at face value Vader surpassed Sheev during that time period.

While there is not direct confirmation for Vader losing potential, it was implied by multiple characters to be the case in the comics and even the sequel movies. Based on their "fight" in the comics, it's relatively simple to deduce that Vader never surpassed Palpatine, regardless of the preexisting quotes that implied Vader was stronger. Not sure what your hold-up is here?

Originally posted by Darthadi
2. Anakin would have stomped ROTS Ahsoka worse than Vader defeated Rebels Ahsoka (a 2 minutes fight is not a stomp).
This means that the gap is smaller in Rebels which means that the gap between Rebels Ahsoka and ROTS Ahsoka is larger than the gap between Rebels Vader and Anakin. Ergo, Vader's growth was slower than Ahsoka's. And in this case knowledge is not a valid excuse as Vader is superior to Tano in this departament. The point you're making here doesn't really prove anything.

Rebels Ahsoka was "vastly" superior to TCW Ahsoka, and Vader still beat her decisively in under 2 minutes. If we knew for a fact that Ahsoka was operating precisely at 'x' level during Rebels, maybe your point would make more sense?

But as it stands, all we know is that TCW Ahsoka was very close to Maul's level, and Rebels Ahsoka was "vastly more skilled" than she was during TCW. For all we know, Rebels Ahsoka could have been > Dooku... We don't know either way, so trying to draw any sort of legitimate or quantifiable comparison is faulty.

Originally posted by Darthadi
3. And my point is that Palpatine keeping secrets from Vader is not a plausible explanation for the huge gap demonstrated in the comics (which is far greater than the gap in ROTS based on Yoda/Dooku scaling).

Knowledge is a factor for growth for sure, but not the only factor. Spiritual growth, biological potential, willpower and fighting experience are just as important and Vader had them all. Indeed. But at the end of the day, Vader's overall growth was still limited by the fact that Palpatine was restricting his knowledge/teachings, and therefore keeping his power in-check. Again, Vader essentially could only become as powerful as Palpatine allowed him to become.

Originally posted by Darthadi
All masters keep secrets from their apprentices (it's not something specific to Sidious) but they still often get surpassed if the apprentice have the potential to do so. In Vader's case not only that he didn't surpass Sheev, but he was not even close. The gap even got larger post ROTS despite Sheev being far older (so he would hit diminished returns). Palpatine certainly wasn't your run-of-the-mill Sith Master, and we have no reason to believe that his power ever plateaued with age(to the contrary, we have every reason to believe that it increased massively in the years between RotS and RotJ.)

As I said on the last page, the indication seems to be that the potential of the Palpatine bloodline is at least in the same ballpark as the Skywalker bloodline(*looks at Rey*.) So if Palpatine was hoarding/studying a vast amount of knowledge for decadeS, while Vader was only given a small trickle here and there, the gap between them could logically never be bridged. Palpatine already started off at a much higher level than Anakin/Vader during RotS, in all likelihood had a similar(albeit inferior) potential, and most importantly: had the means to retain that gap in power by way of incessantly hoarding knowledge, whilst cherry-picking which tidbits he wanted to feed Vader(which were ultimately just enough to keep Vader subservient and wanting more, but not enough to make him a rival on his own... "Busy work", as Vader called it.)

Originally posted by Darthadi
4. I agree that it would make more sense than Luke just growing that much naturally tho. That's all I'm saying. thumb up

Galan007
At any rate, I feel like I'm just repeating the same stuff over and over, so this will likely be my last post on the subject unless something new comes up. thumb up

Darthadi
1. It's simple. Vader surpassed Sidious during FO, but Sidious took the lead again in ESB. This would be the logical conclusion if we take the quote at face value.

2. You still don't get it. Where Rebels Ahsoka stands relative to Dooku is irrelevant to my point.
Rebels Ahsoka is closer to Vader than ROTS Ahsoka is to Anakin.
This means that between ROTS and Rebels, Ahsoka grew more than Vader. If even Ahsoka has faster grow than him, how i'm suposed to belive that he kept his potential.

And unlike with Palps, Ahsoka's knowledge is inferior to Vader's

3. We went over this in that other threat. I belive that Anakin's potential is vastly superior to Palpatine's (or pretty much anyone in the verse including other Skywalkers)

And again, the gap between them got even larger and by a huge degree. Palpatine ragdolled Vader casually. The gap was much smaller in ROTS based on Dooku scaling. (Dooku who can't be ragdolled by Yoda in a combat scenario).

Sidious hoarding knowledge is not even close to a good enough explanation for me. Lack of knowledge never stoped someone like Anakin or Luke to grow super fast in way less time than Vader had.

I don't think we will agree on this one so maybe it's better to agree to disagree (again)

Darthadi
I just saw your last post now. Fair enough. We are just repeating the same arguments.

StiltmanFTW

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